Silvio Dante Posted August 31, 2018 Report Share Posted August 31, 2018 So says Gareth Southgate when selecting his latest England squad, which includes Jack Butland. Key message there appears to be game time is needed to put yourself in the frame. In no way am I suggesting that any of ours are on the radar, but who in the championship is possibly knocking on the door? Side question - could it lead to a last minute loan move for people like Tammy or Solanke to get the game time they need, if they have the assurance they’re not “off radar”. The obvious one here is Grealish. Anyone else, or is it just a bit of Southgate spin? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Major Isewater Posted August 31, 2018 Report Share Posted August 31, 2018 6 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said: So says Gareth Southgate when selecting his latest England squad, which includes Jack Butland. Key message there appears to be game time is needed to put yourself in the frame. In no way am I suggesting that any of ours are on the radar, but who in the championship is possibly knocking on the door? Side question - could it lead to a last minute loan move for people like Tammy or Solanke to get the game time they need, if they have the assurance they’re not “off radar”. The obvious one here is Grealish. Anyone else, or is it just a bit of Southgate spin? English players not good enough to be regular starters in the Prem should set alarm bells ringing. ( but probably won't) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
screech Posted August 31, 2018 Report Share Posted August 31, 2018 Were also getting to the point that even having an English manager in the premier league is a nonstarter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkeh Posted August 31, 2018 Report Share Posted August 31, 2018 1 minute ago, Major Isewater said: English players not good enough to be regular starters in the Prem should set alarm bells ringing. ( but probably won't) its not a case of english players not being good enough, its more of a case that there aren't enough english players/managers in the top flight full stop, There needs to be a quota introduced stating 4 of a teams starting line up must be english, and there must be 3 national players trained at the club (english youth players) in the match day squad, None of that will happen as its about money in the prem, greed is destroying the game Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silvio Dante Posted August 31, 2018 Author Report Share Posted August 31, 2018 1 minute ago, Monkeh said: its not a case of english players not being good enough, its more of a case that there aren't enough english players/managers in the top flight full stop, There needs to be a quota introduced stating 4 of a teams starting line up must be english, and there must be 3 national players trained at the club (english youth players) in the match day squad, None of that will happen as its about money in the prem, greed is destroying the game The other issue there is the instant success requirement. If you’re Sarri at Chelsea, and you know you’re likely to get 2 years at best, do you play Ampadu/Abraham etc and take the likely poorer results for a period as they develop, or spend £50m on a ready made player? The current instant gratification culture is anathema to young players (and hence English players as they’re the ones coming through) developing. That’s why Sancho etc are looking abroad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkeh Posted August 31, 2018 Report Share Posted August 31, 2018 9 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said: The other issue there is the instant success requirement. If you’re Sarri at Chelsea, and you know you’re likely to get 2 years at best, do you play Ampadu/Abraham etc and take the likely poorer results for a period as they develop, or spend £50m on a ready made player? The current instant gratification culture is anathema to young players (and hence English players as they’re the ones coming through) developing. That’s why Sancho etc are looking abroad I'm giving Sarri the benefit of doubt at the moment as he inherited a squad with only 7 english players in it its people like jose who are the problem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Balls Posted August 31, 2018 Report Share Posted August 31, 2018 Other countries have rules on this, but then clubs look to bend them anyway. In La Liga, I understood that you can only play 3 non-European (or even non-EU) players on the pitch at any one time. On that basis, they somehow managed to wangle a Spanish passport for Suarez & a Portuguese one for Coutinho. It's a bit of Southgate spin for picking Butland. And I don't know why he's worrying too much. Once the post-Brexit immigration rules start to affect EU players the same as non-EU players, there will be a lot less "bog-standard" non-international European players at all levels. For instance, Monreal, Bellerin & even Lacazette at Arsenal would not meet the current international standards for getting a work permit, which requires a minimum appearance record in the period prior to getting to the UK. What that might also mean is that British players coming through will be at a greater premium, and that academies really might earn their money. Not that ours hasn't after selling Bobby Reid & Joe Bryan this summer. Also it makes it more imperative that we get the training facilities sorted and become a Level 1 Academy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davefevs Posted August 31, 2018 Report Share Posted August 31, 2018 Off topic a bit, but I heard on Talksport yesterday that in Spain’s La Liga, a manager is only able to manage one La Liga club per season. I like that rule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoystonFoote'snephew Posted August 31, 2018 Report Share Posted August 31, 2018 I hate to say it but English clubs need to be more realistic about the valuation of their players. One of the reasons that the Premiership is so full of mediocre overseas players (and there are an awful lot of them) is that they are half the cost of English players. Aside from the big premier leagues in Spain, Italy, France and Germany, where a player from a big team can command large fees, the rest of the leagues in Europe are selling leagues, and because of lack of money are cheap That said, if English clubs want to be successful in Europe perhaps they should buy British and appoint a British manager. A paltry 9 European titles since the birth of the Premier league, compared to 20 European titles (8 European cups, 8 inter city fairs/UEFA cups and 4 cup winners cups) in the 25 years prior makes you wonder what many of these ‘superstar’ players and coaches have added to our game. Not European success that’s for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IAmNick Posted August 31, 2018 Report Share Posted August 31, 2018 I feel like forcing teams to play X number of English players is treating a symptom rather than the cause. Invest more in young people's and grassroots football, train more coaches (look up how many we have compared to other similar European nations), and see how the Germans and French do it would be a better use of money and time in my opinion... And then wait twenty years! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robbored Posted August 31, 2018 Report Share Posted August 31, 2018 It wouldn’t be the first time England have selected a player not playing in the top division. 30 odd years ago Steve Bull of Wolves was picked because of his impressive goal scoring record.....he got 4 goals foe England iirc. Im surprised Butland stayed at relegated Stoke tho. I’d have though he’d have moved back to the PL to protect his England career. its probably him the Southgate has in mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davefevs Posted August 31, 2018 Report Share Posted August 31, 2018 1 minute ago, Robbored said: It wouldn’t be the first time England have selected a player not playing in the top division. 30 odd years ago Steve Bull of Wolves was picked because of his impressive goal scoring record.....he got 4 goals foe England iirc. Im surprised Butland stayed at relegated Stoke tho. I’d have though he’d have moved back to the PL to protect his England career. its probably him the Southgate has in mind. Bull was a very good striker, just happened to love playing for Wolves...rightly deserved his call up. Don’t know how many goals he scored but he did get the winner v Scotland, and came off the bench in the Italia 90 WC too. He hurt City a few times! Whether Grealish is good enough or not I don’t know, but I think he’s the type of player we miss at the international level, that player that can glide past someone and commit someone else’s marker, creating space elsewhere. Too many of our players play too safe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robbored Posted August 31, 2018 Report Share Posted August 31, 2018 2 minutes ago, Davefevs said: Bull was a very good striker, just happened to love playing for Wolves...rightly deserved his call up. Don’t know how many goals he scored but he did get the winner v Scotland, and came off the bench in the Italia 90 WC too. He hurt City a few times! Whether Grealish is good enough or not I don’t know, but I think he’s the type of player we miss at the international level, that player that can glide past someone and commit someone else’s marker, creating space elsewhere. Too many of our players play too safe. Saw Bull interviewed a couple of years after he’d retired and he was asked ‘ which club did you score the most goals against?’ Bull ummed and ahhed and said he didn’t know.............and was surprised when he was given the answer............. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted August 31, 2018 Report Share Posted August 31, 2018 Neves 15 million. Or Grealish valued at over double that. The English premium on players definitely doesn't help. That said definitely would support a rule that for example gave clubs obligations to field a certain number of academy players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedM Posted August 31, 2018 Report Share Posted August 31, 2018 34 minutes ago, Davefevs said: Off topic a bit, but I heard on Talksport yesterday that in Spain’s La Liga, a manager is only able to manage one La Liga club per season. I like that rule. Interesting. But does that mean you could be stuck with a manager you don’t want? You could have a situation where players won’t play for him, he’s lost the plot and the fans hate him. But he can do what he likes as the owner won’t sack him as he can only get lower ranked managers or those out of work/ not worked in La Liga in that season? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Major Isewater Posted August 31, 2018 Report Share Posted August 31, 2018 40 minutes ago, Monkeh said: its not a case of english players not being good enough, its more of a case that there aren't enough english players/managers in the top flight full stop, There needs to be a quota introduced stating 4 of a teams starting line up must be english, and there must be 3 national players trained at the club (english youth players) in the match day squad, None of that will happen as its about money in the prem, greed is destroying the game I'm sorry but Harry Kane is good enough, Henderson is good enough , Sterling is good enough... would Prem coaches keep out a player , regardless of nationality, if they thought it would improve their team ? Of course not. Therefore not enough English players are good enough to be displacing foreign players in the Prem team . I agree with your other two points though Monkeh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IdliketoRogerMoore Posted August 31, 2018 Report Share Posted August 31, 2018 59 minutes ago, Monkeh said: its not a case of english players not being good enough, its more of a case that there aren't enough english players/managers in the top flight full stop, There needs to be a quota introduced stating 4 of a teams starting line up must be english, and there must be 3 national players trained at the club (english youth players) in the match day squad, None of that will happen as its about money in the prem, greed is destroying the game Thing is we know this is true but the F.A will look at at like we’ve just got to the World Cup semi and all is Rosie in English football! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davefevs Posted August 31, 2018 Report Share Posted August 31, 2018 4 minutes ago, RedM said: Interesting. But does that mean you could be stuck with a manager you don’t want? You could have a situation where players won’t play for him, he’s lost the plot and the fans hate him. But he can do what he likes as the owner won’t sack him as he can only get lower ranked managers or those out of work/ not worked in La Liga in that season? Yes to both bits...but there are enough managers on the merry go round to not being too difficult to find someone else. It avoids the Mark Hughes scenario. Prem club sack Mark Hughes for doing crap, another Prem club employ Mark Hughes, who does crap for them too in the same season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eddie Hitler Posted August 31, 2018 Report Share Posted August 31, 2018 11 minutes ago, Major Isewater said: I'm sorry but Harry Kane is good enough, Henderson is good enough , Sterling is good enough... would Prem coaches keep out a player , regardless of nationality, if they thought it would improve their team ? Of course not. Therefore not enough English players are good enough to be displacing foreign players in the Prem team . I agree with your other two points though Monkeh. Uniquely, because of the TV money funding the wages, the Premiership has become a de facto international league with the world's best players coming here wholesale (as opposed to rich individual teams like Real Madrid or Paris St Germain). No other country's national team has to slect a squad from a league in which its own country's players are a minority in its top league and particularly the top teams in this league. Hence England has to also look to the Championship as that is primarily English players. League champions of England, Man City's current squad has seven English out of a squad of 28: a quarter https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manchester_City_F.C. League champions of Germany, Bayern Munich has thirteen Germans out of 25: a half. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FC_Bayern_Munich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkeh Posted August 31, 2018 Report Share Posted August 31, 2018 42 minutes ago, Major Isewater said: I'm sorry but Harry Kane is good enough, Henderson is good enough , Sterling is good enough... would Prem coaches keep out a player , regardless of nationality, if they thought it would improve their team ? Of course not. Therefore not enough English players are good enough to be displacing foreign players in the Prem team . I agree with your other two points though Monkeh. Phil Foden, if he played for bournmouth he'd start every week and play for england by now, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cowshed Posted August 31, 2018 Report Share Posted August 31, 2018 1 hour ago, IAmNick said: I feel like forcing teams to play X number of English players is treating a symptom rather than the cause. Invest more in young people's and grassroots football, train more coaches (look up how many we have compared to other similar European nations), and see how the Germans and French do it would be a better use of money and time in my opinion... And then wait twenty years! Would mass investment make a lot of difference to the numbers of players playing in the Premier league in the long term? Its a possible, but it would improve football as a whole. The EPL's capital is the driver of why there are so few homegrown players at that top level. That capital inflates the value of all players here. This market has more money to spend so it spends more, inflates more e.g. Bobby Reid would never be that price in Italy. The EPL itself represents globalisation. The clubs, owners, players are hardly English. They are global. Invest in grassroots football ... It should be a moral obligation. The Premier league redistributes around one hundred million pounds a season to grass roots football. That actual figure is questionable as money often goes back to the Premier leagues clubs themselves. Meanwhile Paul Pogba cost ninety million pounds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheshire_red Posted August 31, 2018 Report Share Posted August 31, 2018 1 hour ago, Davefevs said: Off topic a bit, but I heard on Talksport yesterday that in Spain’s La Liga, a manager is only able to manage one La Liga club per season. I like that rule. wouldn't that just bring more foreign managers in? Club sacks manager, doesn't fancy any currently unemployed in the UK, gets one from abroad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davefevs Posted August 31, 2018 Report Share Posted August 31, 2018 11 minutes ago, cheshire_red said: wouldn't that just bring more foreign managers in? Club sacks manager, doesn't fancy any currently unemployed in the UK, gets one from abroad. Not sure nationality is a factor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simon uk Posted August 31, 2018 Report Share Posted August 31, 2018 Just for the record,y son plays for a team in a local league, we had a chat with the coaches before this season started who confirmed they intend to play in line with requirements set out by the fa, the main 2 i recall them mentioning were playing the ballout from the back, and encouraging skill on the ball. My boy is 9 now so people of that age will be entering pro football in 10 years will hopefully be used to playing that way, but it will be a gradual process Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Midlands Robin Posted August 31, 2018 Report Share Posted August 31, 2018 With Southgate clearly concerned about pathways for young England qualified players, surely now would be a good time to re-introduce England B fixtures to fill the gap between the under 21's and full team. Someone like Bobby Reid for example, was never going to appear on the England scene last season despite performing well and had developed too late to be in the under 21 squad but England B caps would be a good way of giving those players who fall into that gap a run out, it would help to tie them into the England set up, would provide international games away from Wembley and could be played on the same weekend as full International fixtures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeAman08 Posted August 31, 2018 Report Share Posted August 31, 2018 2 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said: Neves 15 million. Or Grealish valued at over double that. The English premium on players definitely doesn't help. That said definitely would support a rule that for example gave clubs obligations to field a certain number of academy players. Yes but that is because of all the foreign players brought in. An english squad player is worth more because you have to have so many in your matchday squad. You could fill it with an academy player or Grealish who has at least performed well at different levels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mendip City Posted August 31, 2018 Report Share Posted August 31, 2018 People think this is a premier league problem.... how much better is it in the championship? I don’t think we’ve a huge number of non-English players yet I can easily see more than half our starting line up on Sunday being non-English: Maenpaaa Kalas O’Dowda Eliasson Weimann Diedhiou and off the top of my head Pisano, Wright and Hegeler (If he’s still around) add to the non-England qualified players. Id be surprised if more than 50% of the Championship’s players were England qualified. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MigratedRobin Posted August 31, 2018 Report Share Posted August 31, 2018 Foreign players playing in the Premier League is a fad that's lasted over twenty years. Maybe that's too long to be a fad, but Surely there must be enough room in the top 6 P.L. sides for a few more British players. There are quite a few foreign players that if were English would be under a greater microscope, but because they're from abroad seem to go under the radar. Mesut Ozil seems to me to be a case in point. But there are many more! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe jordans teeth Posted August 31, 2018 Report Share Posted August 31, 2018 7 hours ago, Midlands Robin said: With Southgate clearly concerned about pathways for young England qualified players, surely now would be a good time to re-introduce England B fixtures to fill the gap between the under 21's and full team. Someone like Bobby Reid for example, was never going to appear on the England scene last season despite performing well and had developed too late to be in the under 21 squad but England B caps would be a good way of giving those players who fall into that gap a run out, it would help to tie them into the England set up, would provide international games away from Wembley and could be played on the same weekend as full International fixtures. Isn’t this pathetic tournament coming up a good excuse to use a England B side and see where they stand Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted August 31, 2018 Report Share Posted August 31, 2018 8 hours ago, JoeAman08 said: Yes but that is because of all the foreign players brought in. An english squad player is worth more because you have to have so many in your matchday squad. You could fill it with an academy player or Grealish who has at least performed well at different levels. I see what you're saying, but for years you have got better value for money abroard. Wolves and Villa spent a similar amount over a 2 year period. Derby spent 30 million was it in 2015 apparently- so I read anyway. For Grealish I could get Neves- plus 15 million to help with other areas. Neves wages probably lower too albeit when he joined Wolves. Until clubs get more real with their valuations, clubs will tend to look overseas more for value. Markets share little patriotism. I still think obligations about academy players could be a way forward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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