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"Just part of the matchday experience": The psychological toll of abuse from the stands in football

kmpowell

By kmpowell
in Football Chat

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Major Isewater

Major Isewater

Posted
Posted
8 hours ago, kmpowell said:

This interesting read popped up on my news feed this evening...

https://www.shortlist.com/entertainment/sport/football-abuse-fans-jermaine-jenas-spurs-premier-league-sol-campbell-stan-collymore/370794

In short , players are human and don't like abuse so only do it to the opposition to help our results.

 

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BTRFTG

BTRFTG

Posted
Posted

Aw, diddums....

If you stick your head above the parapet for the glory, adulation and reward it brings you should also be prepared to take the flak when things don't go so well, usually as a result of personal failings.

Can't imagine Mackay or Souness ever lost sleep over abuse, for they were man enough to realise one can turn it to one's own advantage.

As for Lisbie, no chance he'll be in the stiffs anytime soon as he's on fire this season banging in hat-tricks for my mate's team.

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Xiled

Xiled

Posted
Posted
10 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

There's far less now than 30, 20- even 10- years ago. Certainly if Ashton Gate is anything to go by,

I would agree. Crowds inside grounds are less accepting of poisonous behaviour (e.g. racism) than they used to be.

It doesn't excuse it at all but when fans know a player is earning £4k or £40k a week, it's very hard to accept mistakes or a poor performance. Look at the Marley Watkins thread for the judgements that are being made on him for a handful of City games.

Direct criticism (abuse) has been part of the game for decades. If it hurts that much then maybe playing at the highest level isn't the right thing to do. Sign for Rovers, most of their supporters are locked out of the tents. Much harder to hear the abuse with a few layers of canvas in the way.

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Port Said Red

Port Said Red

Posted
Posted
16 minutes ago, BTRFTG said:

Aw, diddums....

If you stick your head above the parapet for the glory, adulation and reward it brings you should also be prepared to take the flak when things don't go so well, usually as a result of personal failings.

Can't imagine Mackay or Souness ever lost sleep over abuse, for they were man enough to realise one can turn it to one's own advantage.

As for Lisbie, no chance he'll be in the stiffs anytime soon as he's on fire this season banging in hat-tricks for my mate's team.

I remember Savage, coming down in front of our fans before kick off and inviting us to have a go, I think it was part of what motivated him on the pitch. I agree that abuse of players, related to their playing ability is fair game, clearly anything related to race, creed, religion etc is taking it too far and I am glad that has become far rarer now.

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BTRFTG

BTRFTG

Posted
Posted
10 minutes ago, Xiled said:

Direct criticism (abuse) has been part of the game for decades. If it hurts that much then maybe playing at the highest level isn't the right thing to do. Sign for Rovers, 

You haven't thought this through. Get shouted at at Spurs and console yourself by driving past the bustop waiting abusive detritus in your 7 series Beemer to a mansion where you can cry yourself to sleep in the comfort of your private cinema consoled by a bevy of beauties who have no interest in you other than your bulging wallet.

At the Gas you'd end catching sharing the detritus packed bus to Lockleaze, queueing at the discount offie for your Saturday night 6 pack of White Lightning that you'll drink alone given the wife and kids couldn't tolerate the indignity any longer, with your standing in society, like your position in the league, being rock bottom.

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reddoh

reddoh

Posted
Posted
12 minutes ago, Port Said Red said:

I remember Savage, coming down in front of our fans before kick off and inviting us to have a go, I think it was part of what motivated him on the pitch. I agree that abuse of players, related to their playing ability is fair game, clearly anything related to race, creed, religion etc is taking it too far and I am glad that has become far rarer now.

I think we need to remember that players are just like fans

some like @Robbored will have 2 inch armour plated skin

some will be running around using @Major Isewater squeaky bum oil(normally speedy wingers)

but there will be some that cannot take the abuse just like some fans so before you take the piss/ give abuse think about the person you are doing it to and how they will feel.   

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Port Said Red

Port Said Red

Posted
Posted
7 minutes ago, reddoh said:

I think we need to remember that players are just like fans

some like @Robbored will have 2 inch armour plated skin

some will be running around using @Major Isewater squeaky bum oil(normally speedy wingers)

but there will be some that cannot take the abuse just like some fans so before you take the piss/ give abuse think about the person you are doing it to and how they will feel.   

Judging by the reaction of some of fans when they get something back from a player on the pitch, that is definitely true.

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LondonBristolian

LondonBristolian

Posted
Posted
50 minutes ago, BTRFTG said:

Aw, diddums....

If you stick your head above the parapet for the glory, adulation and reward it brings you should also be prepared to take the flak when things don't go so well, usually as a result of personal failings.

Can't imagine Mackay or Souness ever lost sleep over abuse, for they were man enough to realise one can turn it to one's own advantage.

As for Lisbie, no chance he'll be in the stiffs anytime soon as he's on fire this season banging in hat-tricks for my mate's team.

Don't buy into this at all.

Yes, some players thrive on abuse but it's a bit of a weird logic that, just 'cos you're good at football, you are expected to be okay with complete strangers shouting abuse at you. Yes, players have to deal with it 'cos it will happen but it's natural people will react differently to it. I do wonder how people who think players should get over it would feel about a bunch of complete strangers turning up at their work and telling them how shit they are.

People are going to get whatever advantage they can in sport so of course people are going to boo the opposition but I've always felt any fan booing their own team is making things harder rather than easier. Look at Leeds away last season - Leeds were atrocious and their fans properly got behind the team, created a cauldron of noise and that got Leeds back into the match.

All of this said, it does remind me of the amusing Mark Viduka story when he was at, I think Boro.

After a match he was confronted by a fan who said something like "For ****'s sake Viduka, you're shit. Try harder - I pay your ******* wages".

Viduka grinned at him, said "ah, you pay my wages do you?" Then shook his hand and said "Congratulations, you must be one rich ******!".

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ChippenhamRed

ChippenhamRed

Posted
Posted
46 minutes ago, BTRFTG said:

Aw, diddums....

If you stick your head above the parapet for the glory, adulation and reward it brings you should also be prepared to take the flak when things don't go so well, usually as a result of personal failings.

Can't imagine Mackay or Souness ever lost sleep over abuse, for they were man enough to realise one can turn it to one's own advantage.

As for Lisbie, no chance he'll be in the stiffs anytime soon as he's on fire this season banging in hat-tricks for my mate's team.

Some pretty crass responses here, not least of all this one.

It doesn’t matter how much a player earns, abuse is abuse and sometimes it does cross a line to become something deeply personal and unacceptable. Is it a player’s fault if they’re not “man enough” to handle some of the worst abuse? Does that excuse the abuse?

Certainly mental toughness is part of what is needed to be a top player. But again, does that mean fans can say what they like, however personal?

In a sense it’s not the player’s fault that they command such high salaries. They are lucky to be talented enough to be prized assets in a highly lucrative industry. And it doesn’t make them fair game for limitless amounts of abuse.

Of course criticism, booing and shouting are all part of the game - and the game wouldn’t be the same without that tribalism and intense atmosphere. But it can cross a line.

The article also speaks about the effect on player’s families - they have done nothing to deserve that and I can entirely understand why a player’s mum could struggle with that.

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Robbored

Robbored

Posted
Posted
48 minutes ago, reddoh said:

I think we need to remember that players are just like fans

some like @Robbored will have 2 inch armour plated skin

some will be running around using @Major Isewater squeaky bum oil(normally speedy wingers)

but there will be some that cannot take the abuse just like some fans so before you take the piss/ give abuse think about the person you are doing it to and how they will feel.   

This is a football forum and they’ll always be comments that people take umbrage at. To me that’s reacting like a snowflake and if they can’t take it then dont post.

Btw - my skin is like that of a rhino......nothing, nothing at all bothers me.

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Mr Popodopolous

Mr Popodopolous

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, Xiled said:

I would agree. Crowds inside grounds are less accepting of poisonous behaviour (e.g. racism) than they used to be.

It doesn't excuse it at all but when fans know a player is earning £4k or £40k a week, it's very hard to accept mistakes or a poor performance. Look at the Marley Watkins thread for the judgements that are being made on him for a handful of City games.

Direct criticism (abuse) has been part of the game for decades. If it hurts that much then maybe playing at the highest level isn't the right thing to do. Sign for Rovers, most of their supporters are locked out of the tents. Much harder to hear the abuse with a few layers of canvas in the way.

I meant flak of the opposition, especially opposition players who are returning/left under bad terms, or indeed a niggly bastard on the pitch. Wasn't even talking racism etc, I meant general yet normal abuse from the stands- seems a lot less than it was in the past tbh.

@LondonBristolian Yeah, positive and noisy support is usually the best- Leeds 0-2 at home v us last year was an exemplary example- bit of an exception in modern UK grounds though? Think maybe because fans pay so much in tickets, they expect the players to deliver first and foremost before getting into the game maybe, rather than a sloppy start being turned around by noisy and consistent backing.Of course, rules and regs play a part too, but even in bits of grounds where there is a more lax approach, it isn't necessarily always a cauldron.

Your Viduka example, people can and do turn it a bit- I remember overhearing a supervisor in the Dolman who is no longer there I believe in an exchange with a fan. Wages a world away, but similar principle.

Went something like:

Fan: 'I pay your wages etc etc.'

Supervisor: 'Ah- good to meet you at last Mr Lansdown!'

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Dman_Red

Dman_Red

Posted
Posted
36 minutes ago, LondonBristolian said:

Yes, some players thrive on abuse but it's a bit of a weird logic that, just 'cos you're good at football, you are expected to be okay with complete strangers shouting abuse at you. Yes, players have to deal with it 'cos it will happen but it's natural people will react differently to it. I do wonder how people who think players should get over it would feel about a bunch of complete strangers turning up at their work and telling them how shit they are.

They may be willing to take it, if it means on some days someone applauds you, chants your name and carries you on their shoulders around the office for making the best spreadsheet the wooooorld has eeeeever seen?!

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RedJim

RedJim

Posted
Posted
2 hours ago, BTRFTG said:

Aw, diddums....

If you stick your head above the parapet for the glory, adulation and reward it brings you should also be prepared to take the flak when things don't go so well, usually as a result of personal failings.

Can't imagine Mackay or Souness ever lost sleep over abuse, for they were man enough to realise one can turn it to one's own advantage.

As for Lisbie, no chance he'll be in the stiffs anytime soon as he's on fire this season banging in hat-tricks for my mate's team.

You always struck me as an intelligent poster. Pretty surprised by your responses to this thread...

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Antman

Antman

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, ChippenhamRed said:

Some pretty crass responses here, not least of all this one.

It doesn’t matter how much a player earns, abuse is abuse and sometimes it does cross a line to become something deeply personal and unacceptable. Is it a player’s fault if they’re not “man enough” to handle some of the worst abuse? Does that excuse the abuse?

Certainly mental toughness is part of what is needed to be a top player. But again, does that mean fans can say what they like, however personal?

In a sense it’s not the player’s fault that they command such high salaries. They are lucky to be talented enough to be prized assets in a highly lucrative industry. And it doesn’t make them fair game for limitless amounts of abuse.

Of course criticism, booing and shouting are all part of the game - and the game wouldn’t be the same without that tribalism and intense atmosphere. But it can cross a line.

The article also speaks about the effect on player’s families - they have done nothing to deserve that and I can entirely understand why a player’s mum could struggle with that.

exactly this - some people think they have a license to hurl abuse without any sense of consequence.

Its made worse with social media, where boundaries have become blurred to the point of no return.

Would you expect to abuse a co worker or someone in a social situation, or face to face situation in the same manner?  of course not - so why do it.

* i see we've had the first 'battlefield' analogy too - *facepalms*

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BTRFTG

BTRFTG

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, LondonBristolian said:

I do wonder how people who think players should get over it would feel about a bunch of complete strangers turning up at their work and telling them how shit they are.

Happens to individuals in all walks of life each and every day, save most of them aren't famous, haven't sought the limelight and don't earn fortunes. The management speak of ' having a difficult conversation', many of us have to do it all the time and prettying the pill isn't necessarily the best outcome for the individual, especially where they're deluded or have ideas above their station.  There's no justification for advocating abuse for abuse sake (Gas excepted) but telling someone they're inadequate or useless when they demonstrably are isn't abuse, it's a statement of fact. It's delivery mechanism is, more often than not, mirrored by the reward mechanism sought. Cognitive Dissonance Theory demonstrates that observed criticism degrades performance but then it should, one wouldn't want a crap pilot at the controls one second longer than necessary and if getting them out for fear of hurting their feelings, well, tough. The article muddles by making reference to individuals such as Enke who for those of you who've read his biography will know that the manifestation of depression he suffered as a player had roots far away from the game, embedded in his childhood. Whatever his career he most likely would have encountered the issues to which he succumbed and one mystery raised is why he chose the career he did, given the obvious issues it brought him?

We should also not forget that nobody forces these individuals to suffer 'abuse'. If the cases cited truly were an issue they might simply have upped sticks and walked away to a life of obscurity. But then it's funny how such criticism gets levelled by those entering that twilight state, the 'you're not famous anymore' brigade,  yet only when they're no longer headline news.

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gl1

gl1

Posted
Posted
14 hours ago, kmpowell said:

This interesting read popped up on my news feed this evening...

https://www.shortlist.com/entertainment/sport/football-abuse-fans-jermaine-jenas-spurs-premier-league-sol-campbell-stan-collymore/370794

If I was being paid the thousands of pounds per week they were on I’d take as much flack from the stands as they could throw

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ChippenhamRed

ChippenhamRed

Posted
Posted
19 minutes ago, BTRFTG said:

Happens to individuals in all walks of life each and every day, save most of them aren't famous, haven't sought the limelight and don't earn fortunes. The management speak of ' having a difficult conversation', many of us have to do it all the time and prettying the pill isn't necessarily the best outcome for the individual, especially where they're deluded or have ideas above their station.  There's no justification for advocating abuse for abuse sake (Gas excepted) but telling someone they're inadequate or useless when they demonstrably are isn't abuse, it's a statement of fact. It's delivery mechanism is, more often than not, mirrored by the reward mechanism sought. Cognitive Dissonance Theory demonstrates that observed criticism degrades performance but then it should, one wouldn't want a crap pilot at the controls one second longer than necessary and if getting them out for fear of hurting their feelings, well, tough. The article muddles by making reference to individuals such as Enke who for those of you who've read his biography will know that the manifestation of depression he suffered as a player had roots far away from the game, embedded in his childhood. Whatever his career he most likely would have encountered the issues to which he succumbed and one mystery raised is why he chose the career he did, given the obvious issues it brought him?

We should also not forget that nobody forces these individuals to suffer 'abuse'. If the cases cited truly were an issue they might simply have upped sticks and walked away to a life of obscurity. But then it's funny how such criticism gets levelled by those entering that twilight state, the 'you're not famous anymore' brigade,  yet only when they're no longer headline news.

Has a footballer “sought the limelight”? Or has he happened to be very good at something that pays him handsomely and that lots of people want to watch?

Nobody forces a player to suffer this abuse. But why should he have to walk away from a career and a livelihood that provides for both himself and his family because of the neanderthal behaviour of others?

You appears to be excusing personal abuse as acceptable because footballers are well paid public figures. I would like to think society is moving on from such views.

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Mike Hunt-Hertz

Mike Hunt-Hertz

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, Robbored said:

This is a football forum and they’ll always be comments that people take umbrage at. To me that’s reacting like a snowflake and if they can’t take it then dont post.

Btw - my skin is like that of a rhino......nothing, nothing at all bothers me.

I thought that you shat yourself, when GJ summoned you into his office?

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BTRFTG

BTRFTG

Posted
Posted
Just now, ChippenhamRed said:

Has a footballer “sought the limelight”? Or has he happened to be very good at something that pays him handsomely and that lots of people want to watch?

Nobody forces a player to suffer this abuse. By why should he have to walk away from a career and a livelihood that provides for both himself and his family because of the neanderthal behaviour of others?

You appears to be excusing personal abuse as acceptable because footballers are well paid public figures. I would like to think society is moving on from such views.

I haven't said anything of the sort. Had you bothered to read what I'd written you'll have noted I used the phrase ' usually the result of personal failings ' if a player is as you say 'good' he will be deservedly subject to praise from his own supporters and derision from the opposition, which as I've said is itself a form of praise given they fear his abilities. So called 'abuse' usually  arises where demonstrably the player isn't as good as he thinks he is, or is defined as by virtue of his relative standing. Paul Williams was probably technically a worse player than Engvald though only the latter deserved to incur my wrath. The difference being not in how they performed, rather how they thought they should be considered by us fans. I don't hurl abuse at park players for failing to control a ball, at AG on the other hand I demand players display an element of basic competence. That seems to me a fair trade off.

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BTRFTG

BTRFTG

Posted
Posted
12 minutes ago, ChippenhamRed said:

Has a footballer “sought the limelight”? Or has he happened to be very good at something that pays him handsomely and that lots of people want to watch?

No player has ever been shouted at by his own supporters for being 'very good' and were he to be those in attendance would understand those doing the shouting were clearly deluded. Not being as good as he proclaims himself to be on the other hand......

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