Pack....deserving his own thread

[Cowshed]

18 hours ago, harrys said:

MP has a job which he does adequately apart from his passing, what he isn’t by any stretch of imagination is a playmaker

I posted part playmaker. Davefevs has articulated thoroughly what a deep lying centre back can be. In that role the pivot and that is what I look at Marlon Pack being is very much part playmaker. Marlon Pack does have skill to start attacks from deep and he does have skill to retain, receive, release and repeat simply. The role there is universal v being the individual heartbeat of the team.

13 hours ago, Davefevs said:

 

@Cowshed in the first half of last season was Pack’s passing average shorter?

@Lee0 

I cannot faithfully answer that. Looking at Dec/Jan v April/May there are some glaring anomalies. Versus Sheffield Wednesday in April Pack played like Gundogan (no laughing), had a passing accuracy average of 94% and only plays two long balls in the entire game. 

[TV Tom]

Part playmaker!!!  This is dragging on a bit, probably best that we accept that people have different opinions

[Three Lions]

On ‎22‎/‎09‎/‎2018 at 08:00, Lee0 said:

Marlon Pack last night didn't just have a bad game, he had a game that was as poor a performance as I've ever seen from a so called defensive/controlling midfielder (and captain).

The general impression I've got from posters on this forum is that he's the best passer at the club, a leader, a possible premiership player..... pfffft.

Yes, I know he played 2 (whoop whoop) quality passes in the 2nd half but that's it, from our 'main man' ! 1st half was a non stop tirade of poor quality passes, not just the ones that were only 5 yd passes that went out of play, those are just embarrassing for the player, the really poor passes were ones that found a team mate and put him on the back foot or put him in a corner surrounded by opposition players.

Marlon stops us, as a team going forward, he slows play down or gives the ball away. 

COD showed last night (and more so against WBA) that he's capable of playing in the middle, I'm hoping he's soon given a chance there ahead of Marlon, COD and JB playing through the middle, attacking, looking to get forward.

The time has come to drop MP, with Korey out it seems as though he's untouchable (I wonder why Liam Walsh turns up).  we, as a team would of been better with 10 men last night.

 

 

Are you really suggesting Callum O'Dowda plays a holding role?

[Lee0]

Apologies for dragging this thread back up.

 

We're back on the MP bashing I'm afraid !

Go on, defend that performance from last night, balls out of play again, 5 yard passes, forward maybe but behind the full back so putting him in a negative position, absolute dog sh*t, gives nothing going forward with the ball, is just a pillar to pass around when we're defending.

A lack lustre performance that needed a captain on the pitch to inspire and drive the team.....NOTHING......AGAIN.

 

 

[Lew-T]

For the first time last night, I saw Pack go hiding. The little things like throw ins, he didn’t look interested and was happy to be marked. The full backs then had to throw long to Diedhiou who didn’t win a header all night! We lose the ball... and repeat.

They all need to raise it, quite frankly.

[Fatalist]

There is no doubt that Pack has improved immensely over the last few years. But, games like last night when he is quickly closed down and rushed or when the game seems more like tennis, exposes his limitations. For years we have needed a mid fielder capable of thinking quickly, controlling the ball instantly, carrying the ball forwards or getting a pass away without delay and completing passes accurately and snappily. Too often Pack takes a second too long to see what is on, then plays the ball too slowly, or not in front of his teammate, so the teammate is marked by the time the ball arrives. Yes he can play good long crossfield passes but they are hard to get right and rarely lead to goal chances.

In the right circumstances, he can be an effective player, but in games like Wigan and Rotherham he just isn't what we need. Not that it is just him, mind. Brownhill was barely noticeable and the wide men rarely got the ball and lacked the confidence to do anything with it when they did.

Oh for a Paul Hartley, Richie Wellens, or possibly John McGinn.

[Lee0]

Or Daniel Johnson from PNE

[Jacki]

I like Pack and I think it’s self evident that he has improved immeasurably in recent years. But it’s also self evident that his current form is poor. 

Personally, I think the lack of cover/competition for places in the midfield is likely to be the most important factor in the current situation. I think Pack is knackered, and I also think players lose edge in their performance when they know they’re basically a guaranteed starter.

The lack of quality cover in a high energy/high intensity position, especially with Korey out, is the real problem for me and I hope it doesn’t end up costing us. 

[RedJim]

We miss Korey Smith in that midfield. His energy and drive, covering and mopping up, helps Pack to play. Pack looks a poorer player without him alongside.

[Lee0]

We miss Korey Smith for his wanting to drive the team forward, his high energy/tempo play and his on field leadership. We get none of this from MP.....best passer my ar*e

 

[Super]

21 minutes ago, Jacki said:

I like Pack and I think it’s self evident that he has improved immeasurably in recent years. But it’s also self evident that his current form is poor. 

Personally, I think the lack of cover/competition for places in the midfield is likely to be the most important factor in the current situation. I think Pack is knackered, and I also think players lose edge in their performance when they know they’re basically a guaranteed starter.

The lack of quality cover in a high energy/high intensity position, especially with Korey out, is the real problem for me and I hope it doesn’t end up costing us. 

Really is a poor excuse.

[Beckster]

4 minutes ago, Lee0 said:

We miss Korey Smith for his wanting to drive the team forward, his high energy/tempo play and his on field leadership. We get none of this from MP.....best passer my ar*e

 

I sit next to someone in the Dolman who has a similar view on MP. You should meet up.

[Lee0]

1 minute ago, Beckster said:

I sit next to someone in the Dolman who has a similar view on MP. You should meet up.

Does he like MP ? does he think MP does have a use in certain situations ? does he just see game after game way too many poor passes for supposedly a 'best passer at the club' winner ?

He sounds ace..... I'm sure I'd like him

[Beckster]

7 minutes ago, Lee0 said:

Does he like MP ? does he think MP does have a use in certain situations ? does he just see game after game way too many poor passes for supposedly a 'best passer at the club' winner ?

He sounds ace..... I'm sure I'd like him

He really does think those things, how very odd. He’s also very good at the “Ole, ole” song. 

[AppyDAZE]

I'm 100% sure by his own admission, that Pack would admit he is struggling right now. THIS is when a replacement is needed or proper competition in the right places.

Is this Marlon's fault? 100% no

 

PS Brownhill has only been marginally better recently. Is there a thread for him?

[Lee0]

1 hour ago, AppyDAZE said:

I'm 100% sure by his own admission, that Pack would admit he is struggling right now. THIS is when a replacement is needed or proper competition in the right places.

Is this Marlon's fault? 100% no

 

PS Brownhill has only been marginally better recently. Is there a thread for him?

What a terrible argument that is !

"Someone else is nearly as bad, do they have a thread too ?"

This is the captain of every game we've played this season, I can't think of one stand out performance, a couple of ok games is it for me.

The only reason it's not the fault of MP is that he didn't pick himself, but his performances and łeadership is 100% his fault.

 

[Red-Robbo]

Unfortunately there isn't a ready made replacement to drop in Marlon's place. Walsh does not play as a defensive midfielder and is a different sort of prospect altogether.

Our failure to recruit a commanding central midfielder in the summer has bitten us in the ass.

I agree with @AppyDAZE that Marlon could do with resting. For whatever reason, his form has plummeted in the last few games and continuing to play him risks making the situation worse, as per L Fontaine.

[Trueredsupporter]

4 hours ago, Lee0 said:

Apologies for dragging this thread back up.

 

We're back on the MP bashing I'm afraid !

Go on, defend that performance from last night, balls out of play again, 5 yard passes, forward maybe but behind the full back so putting him in a negative position, absolute dog sh*t, gives nothing going forward with the ball, is just a pillar to pass around when we're defending.

A lack lustre performance that needed a captain on the pitch to inspire and drive the team.....NOTHING......AGAIN.

 

 

As thread controller you have had some time to come up with your big plan and alternatives. are you still looking at D'Dowda in the holding role? If not who better to play the role than Pack? are you wanting to go without Pack there? personally think Pack needs more options and movement in front of him. 

 

[Port Said Red]

3 hours ago, Jacki said:

I like Pack and I think it’s self evident that he has improved immeasurably in recent years. But it’s also self evident that his current form is poor. 

Personally, I think the lack of cover/competition for places in the midfield is likely to be the most important factor in the current situation. I think Pack is knackered, and I also think players lose edge in their performance when they know they’re basically a guaranteed starter.

The lack of quality cover in a high energy/high intensity position, especially with Korey out, is the real problem for me and I hope it doesn’t end up costing us. 

I wondered last night whether he is taking the Captaincy role too much to heart. I felt he was too busy directing or concerning himself with others play, rather then concentrating on his own. Maybe LJ talking about him in a future Coaching or Managerial role has gone to his head?

[cidered abroad]

I also agree that he has improved over the last three years.

But at the moment, he is not worthy of a place in the squad let alone the starting eleven. That he is demonstrates very clearly to me that we do not have any strength in depth in central midfield. 

[Lee0]

21 minutes ago, Trueredsupporte said:

As thread controller you have had some time to come up with your big plan and alternatives. are you still looking at D'Dowda in the holding role? If not who better to play the role than Pack? are you wanting to go without Pack there? personally think Pack needs more options and movement in front of him. 

 

Thread controller ?

I don't come in that often.....what do I control ? ( genuine question ! )

COD , why not ? It couldn't be any worse than last night (or Wigan) though if BW is fit why not him ?

Pack needs more options and movement in front of him

Why ? How would he know ? He doesn't look to go forward, IMO the movement is sometimes lacking  up field, but I put that down to Marlon continually calling/demanding the ball and slowing play, going sideways, going back.... what is the point of AW or MT making runs that serve no purpose time after time ?

[Lee0]

12 minutes ago, cidered abroad said:

I also agree that he has improved over the last three years.

But at the moment, he is not worthy of a place in the squad let alone the starting eleven. That he is demonstrates very clearly to me that we do not have any strength in depth in central midfield. 

This "he's improved over the last three years" line......so what ?

We're 10 games into season 2018/19 and the best he's been this season is ok and the worst (and in most of the games) poor.

I know there's a lot of love for MP here, but how many average/well below average games must he have before you see that he's not the answer, he's the problem.

 

[Trueredsupporter]

20 minutes ago, Lee0 said:

Thread controller ?

I don't come in that often.....what do I control ? ( genuine question ! )

COD , why not ? It couldn't be any worse than last night (or Wigan) though if BW is fit why not him ?

Pack needs more options and movement in front of him

Why ? How would he know ? He doesn't look to go forward, IMO the movement is sometimes lacking  up field, but I put that down to Marlon continually calling/demanding the ball and slowing play, going sideways, going back.... what is the point of AW or MT making runs that serve no purpose time after time ?

Yep thread controller because you wont answer many points raised or just dismiss them you also brought your own thread back.

so O'Dowda you explain why he would be better than Pack? O'Dowdas experience as a HM? 

Coaches on here have explained about movement in front of him needing to be in the second third supporting the ball. City are lacking energy for some reason and Pack as the coaches again explained has been very good in linking play up from the FB's CB's and Keeper  to the more attacking players.  

[Lee0]

6 minutes ago, Trueredsupporte said:

Yep thread controller because you wont answer many points raised or just dismiss them you also brought your own thread back.

so O'Dowda you explain why he would be better than Pack? O'Dowdas experience as a HM? 

Coaches on here have explained about movement in front of him needing to be in the second third supporting the ball. City are lacking energy for some reason and Pack as the coaches again explained has been very good in linking play up from the FB's CB's and Keeper  to the more attacking players.  

I don't know that COD would be any better but I can't see him being any worse, I've only seen BW in midfield a couple of times too, would he be any worse ? I don't know that either.

This "coaches on here have explained" is rubbish, now, I don't know I'm right, it's an opinion and I'm a qualified coach too.

Marlon linking up play across the back ? Well, that's really my point, it's slowing us down, players aren't making runs because by the time MP has knocked it to a fb/ch/gk a few times (giving him some great looking stats, scroll back to the 80%) any opportunities to break the opposition back line is gone and  the opposition is set, I'm not saying that there's never a time to keep the ball and get their strikers chasing but it's way too easy for them at the moment, they don't bother!

Wigan and Rotherham are two sides that are happy to grab every point going, not overly committed to going for the 3 even at home, if we have any ambition in this division other than avoiding the drop then we need to play on the front foot, Marlon is the main reason that we don't, a point away at Rotherham is not a good result and although it's of course not all down to him our slowness at going forward is.

 

[Trueredsupporter]

7 minutes ago, Lee0 said:

I don't know that COD would be any better but I can't see him being any worse, I've only seen BW in midfield a couple of times too, would he be any worse ? I don't know that either.

This "coaches on here have explained" is rubbish, now, I don't know I'm right, it's an opinion and I'm a qualified coach too.

 

 

 you want to play a O'Dowda as a holding midfielder instead of Pack as a qualified coach shouldn't you be able to explain exactly why its a good idea as its quite out there?

 

[Lee0]

3 hours ago, Trueredsupporte said:

 you want to play a O'Dowda as a holding midfielder instead of Pack as a qualified coach shouldn't you be able to explain exactly why its a good idea as its quite out there?

 

I'd be ok with Kalas, Walsh or COD playing there at the moment, the thing that's needed is change.

MP is negative in both his initial thought, touch when receiving the ball and his passing, I'd just like to see a forward thinking player with passing ability in there.

Yes, COD would be my first choice, his initial thought is to go forward and has the advantage of being able to run at players, I don't know that it would work, you (or other coaches) don't know that it wouldn't.I base this on the WBA game alone.

If Marlon wasn't selected, on the evidence of his performances so far this season, we'd lose what ?

[Mr Popodopolous]

3 hours ago, Lee0 said:

I don't know that COD would be any better but I can't see him being any worse, I've only seen BW in midfield a couple of times too, would he be any worse ? I don't know that either.

This "coaches on here have explained" is rubbish, now, I don't know I'm right, it's an opinion and I'm a qualified coach too.

Marlon linking up play across the back ? Well, that's really my point, it's slowing us down, players aren't making runs because by the time MP has knocked it to a fb/ch/gk a few times (giving him some great looking stats, scroll back to the 80%) any opportunities to break the opposition back line is gone and  the opposition is set, I'm not saying that there's never a time to keep the ball and get their strikers chasing but it's way too easy for them at the moment, they don't bother!

Wigan and Rotherham are two sides that are happy to grab every point going, not overly committed to going for the 3 even at home, if we have any ambition in this division other than avoiding the drop then we need to play on the front foot, Marlon is the main reason that we don't, a point away at Rotherham is not a good result and although it's of course not all down to him our slowness at going forward is.

 

Odd, because Wigan 4-2-0 and Rotherham 3-2-1 so far at home. Not a bad ratio- they are more reactive than quite a few sides however, I'll grant you.

Could the problem with Pack, or one of the problems at the moment anyway, be that he's exposed in a central midfield 2? Because if the opposition heavily presses one of the 2, then the midfield are up against it- in this sort of setup, with as @Olé rightly pointed out on his Match review the opposition going 4-4-1-1 akin to what we had last season with Paterson and Reid, this has potential to leave us outnumbered and throw in the pressing and it suddenly leaves a big problem. A further body in there with Pack and Brownhill would create more space for Pack IMO and give him a bit more time to pick passes.

[Lee0]

24 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Odd, because Wigan 4-2-0 and Rotherham 3-2-1 so far at home. Not a bad ratio- they are more reactive than quite a few sides however, I'll grant you.

Could the problem with Pack, or one of the problems at the moment anyway, be that he's exposed in a central midfield 2? Because if the opposition heavily presses one of the 2, then the midfield are up against it- in this sort of setup, with as @Olé rightly pointed out on his Match review the opposition going 4-4-1-1 akin to what we had last season with Paterson and Reid, this has potential to leave us outnumbered and throw in the pressing and it suddenly leaves a big problem. A further body in there with Pack and Brownhill would create more space for Pack IMO and give him a bit more time to pick passes.

I understand what you're saying but disagree.

I think we're better as a 4-4-2, we've two quick hard working forwards (AW, MT)  but the ball coming forward is so slow the opposition have them covered. By the time we've played 3,5,10 passes around at the back we've nowhere to go and so pump it up field and if it's pumped by MP it's almost certainly their ball/throw.

Our play is slow and predictable from the moment we win the ball, we (like most teams) start with possession in our own third, if it's given to Marlon it rarely comes out quickly.

[TV Tom]

I think if the manager played himself he couldn’t do any worse than the way Pack has played 

[Lee0]

2 hours ago, harrys said:

I think if the manager played himself he couldn’t do any worse than the way Pack has played 

I don't think you're wrong.