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Lee0

Pack....deserving his own thread

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Marlon Pack last night didn't just have a bad game, he had a game that was as poor a performance as I've ever seen from a so called defensive/controlling midfielder (and captain).

The general impression I've got from posters on this forum is that he's the best passer at the club, a leader, a possible premiership player..... pfffft.

Yes, I know he played 2 (whoop whoop) quality passes in the 2nd half but that's it, from our 'main man' ! 1st half was a non stop tirade of poor quality passes, not just the ones that were only 5 yd passes that went out of play, those are just embarrassing for the player, the really poor passes were ones that found a team mate and put him on the back foot or put him in a corner surrounded by opposition players.

Marlon stops us, as a team going forward, he slows play down or gives the ball away. 

COD showed last night (and more so against WBA) that he's capable of playing in the middle, I'm hoping he's soon given a chance there ahead of Marlon, COD and JB playing through the middle, attacking, looking to get forward.

The time has come to drop MP, with Korey out it seems as though he's untouchable (I wonder why Liam Walsh turns up).  we, as a team would of been better with 10 men last night.

 

 

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Wasn't just him who had a bad game though was it?

I like Brownhill but he was anonymous. Paterson - no idea why he gets in the team given his recent form.

Eliasson kept giving the ball away.

Basically the whole midfield was shocking. Marlon does have more good than bad games imho so it seems unfair to single him out when they were all basically shite.

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I'm a huge Brownhill fan but he must have made more errors than anyone else on the pitch ( I'd love to see those stats!)

Pack was also poor but was it him that did that little Zidane trick?

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I like Pack but did he make a forward pass last night? Certainly didnt lead by example thats for sure however Brownhill was equally as bad.

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Very poor displays from just about everyone not just Pack. I thought Pack, Brownhill,  Kalas, Hunt and Kelly were particularly poor. Our best player was Webster, Weimann worked hard, everyone else was below a 6 out of 10. We'll bounce back against Villa COYR.

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LJ and his assistants had obviously been working with the players on game plan but as others have said none of them played well and were unable to implement said game plan effectively.

Thats why he said post match that he was ‘embarrassed and frustrated’ with the performance.

As in any workplace if a manager shows and instructs his staff how to overcome a particular problem but the staff then fail to deliver, who is at fault?    :dunno:

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5 minutes ago, Robbored said:

LJ and his assistants had obviously been working with the players on game plan but as others have said none of them played well and were unable to implement said game plan effectively.

Thats why he said post match that he was ‘embarrassed and frustrated’ with the performance.

As in any workplace if a manager shows and instructs his staff how to overcome a particular problem but the staff then fail to deliver, who is at fault?    :dunno:

The Manager still

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Really was very bad last night. Almost every forward pass went to Wigan. I think there has been three or four poor performances now from Marlon this season which has surprised me.

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We dont have a real potent striker.

Famara Diedhou missed several opportunities to score. He is not championship standard nor is Taylor. They can perform but lack consistency to be a real threat at this level.

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16 minutes ago, Red_Wizard said:

The Manager still

That's handy to know, the next time I mess up at work I'll blame my boss.

Who needs the concept of personal responsibility anyway? So old fashioned.

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12 minutes ago, Red_Wizard said:

The Manager still

Hmmm..... not sure about that RW.

Obviously the buck stops with the manager but from my own experience when staff failed do something as requested I didn’t feel that I was responsible for their inability to complete the task. What that kind of scenario taught me was who to rely on........I imagine LJ feels the same.

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19 minutes ago, Red_Wizard said:

The Manager still

Exactly. He/she is either a bad communicator; has given them the wrong instructions;hasn't got a plan suitable to the skills of the workforce or has recruited the wrong people.

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8 minutes ago, Robbored said:

Hmmm..... not sure about that RW.

Obviously the buck stops with the manager but from my own experience when staff failed do something as requested I didn’t feel that I was responsible for their inability to complete the task. What that kind of scenario taught me was who to rely on........I imagine LJ feels the same.

Does LJ believe that Pato wide left is the answer, someone he can rely on? 

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1 hour ago, Lee0 said:

Marlon Pack last night didn't just have a bad game, he had a game that was as poor a performance as I've ever seen from a so called defensive/controlling midfielder (and captain).

The general impression I've got from posters on this forum is that he's the best passer at the club, a leader, a possible premiership player..... pfffft.

Yes, I know he played 2 (whoop whoop) quality passes in the 2nd half but that's it, from our 'main man' ! 1st half was a non stop tirade of poor quality passes, not just the ones that were only 5 yd passes that went out of play, those are just embarrassing for the player, the really poor passes were ones that found a team mate and put him on the back foot or put him in a corner surrounded by opposition players.

Marlon stops us, as a team going forward, he slows play down or gives the ball away. 

COD showed last night (and more so against WBA) that he's capable of playing in the middle, I'm hoping he's soon given a chance there ahead of Marlon, COD and JB playing through the middle, attacking, looking to get forward.

The time has come to drop MP, with Korey out it seems as though he's untouchable (I wonder why Liam Walsh turns up).  we, as a team would of been better with 10 men last night.

 

 

Packs passing is good, when he keeps it on the ground , limits it to 15/20 yards and keeps the ball moving. Last night every player misplaced passes, throughout the game.
As for stopping us going forward, the best midfielder in the world would struggle when there is no movement and no one to pass too.
As for COD , if anything he slows the movement down more than Pack. I'm a big fan but he will always take a touch/dribble/try to make space , it is rare if he moves the ball quickly, so I think you're being a little unfair praising COD for the same thing you criticise Pack for.
I totally agree COD is capable of playing in the middle and it would free Pack to play a proper sitting role and protect the defence more. Thing is though our coach doesn't like 3 in the middle. I'm also with you on Walsh. We have to give him game time because there is no way Pack and Brownhill will be able to play every minute of every game until Korey is fit.

 

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Pack had a very poor outing last night but that in no way is deserving of the utter ridiculousness of this post.

He IS the best passer at the club courtesy of the fact he's the ONLY creative passer we have at the club.  

As for stopping us going forward, slowing play down and giving the ball away.... For the latter at least there's an inherent risk when trying to be creative, so what's Hunt's, Brownhill's, Watkins's, Paterson's ( I could go on) excuse? Slowing play down, that's a WeeLee trademark they all do it, angles, triangles and inches. Great in the coaching manuals, crap if you've no midfield creativity or end product. So that leaves stopping us going forward. As per the game against Middlesbrough, guilty. They knew and quickly ensured they went man for man on him ( as any team who've done their homework should against us) and our response, oh yeah, we don't have one as we've nobody else who can pick a pass.

Early days I was quite critical of his abilities but he's worked at his game and he's developed into a very useful unit. He's absolutely no pace (not something one can do much about,) but if he did he wouldn't be playing for us.

CoD ended up in the middle because WeeLee's deluded enough to think we're wholly interchangable. That's why we pretty much only sign wingers yet ended up with Diggery playing wide most of last night. You have an opinion though most sensible folks would rather see CoD bombing down the wing crossing to the tall bloke in the box.

I, too, wonder why Walsh bothers to turn up as on his previous showings he'd struggle to make Stockwood's stiffs.

And finally the pedant. It's incorrect to postulate what it would have been like playing with 10 men. We did. WeeLee picked Paterson.

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1 hour ago, Lee0 said:

Marlon Pack last night didn't just have a bad game, he had a game that was as poor a performance as I've ever seen from a so called defensive/controlling midfielder (and captain).

The general impression I've got from posters on this forum is that he's the best passer at the club, a leader, a possible premiership player..... pfffft.

Yes, I know he played 2 (whoop whoop) quality passes in the 2nd half but that's it, from our 'main man' ! 1st half was a non stop tirade of poor quality passes, not just the ones that were only 5 yd passes that went out of play, those are just embarrassing for the player, the really poor passes were ones that found a team mate and put him on the back foot or put him in a corner surrounded by opposition players.

Marlon stops us, as a team going forward, he slows play down or gives the ball away. 

COD showed last night (and more so against WBA) that he's capable of playing in the middle, I'm hoping he's soon given a chance there ahead of Marlon, COD and JB playing through the middle, attacking, looking to get forward.

The time has come to drop MP, with Korey out it seems as though he's untouchable (I wonder why Liam Walsh turns up).  we, as a team would of been better with 10 men last night.

 

 

1 bad game and he gets this in a thread? He’s definitely had more MOM performances than ones like last night.

have you forgotten the night he had 100+ million of Mancunian midfield in his pocket?

everyone has a bad game from time to time. Everyone was poor last night and when the movement etc isn’t there then as a central midfielder you’re going to stick out if you don’t have the options to pass to.

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13 minutes ago, RidgeRed said:

Does LJ believe that Pato wide left is the answer, someone he can rely on? 

Obviously he does. He and the coaches see all the players on an almost daily basis in training and LJ regularly mentions players who ‘showed up well’  in training. I’m sure that’s a motivational tool.

Think about the game last night....Wigan are particularly strong in midfield with Powell and Morsy and to combat them LJ added and extra player - Pato - to assist Pack and Brownhill. Consequently the game was a dull affair with neither team creating much. It was a superb cross and an even better header that won the game.

Tough on City and even Paul Cook said that a draw would have been a fair result.

 

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26 minutes ago, robin_unreliant said:

Exactly. He/she is either a bad communicator; has given them the wrong instructions;hasn't got a plan suitable to the skills of the workforce or has recruited the wrong people.

@Robbored exactly this. We call this Extreme Ownership. If a team fails to deliver, you look towards their Manager. Did the Manager sell the vision? Did the Manager  make clear what was required to get the job done? Did the Manager install belief in his team? If someone apart of that team has a tendency to fail to deliver time and time again. What did the Manager do to make a change?

Unfortunately it goes back to the Manager and the Manager should take full blame. This is what makes one a successful leader. You have to let go of your own ego. Hence why the term is labelled as Extreme Ownership.

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Normally I'm a huge fan of Marlon Pack but his performances recently have been below standard. Lloyd Kelly may I also point out was the worst for passing the ball backwards last night when he had opportunities to play a more defence splitting pass.

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1 minute ago, One BCFC said:

Normally I'm a huge fan of Marlon Pack but his performances recently have been below standard. Lloyd Kelly may I also point out was the worst for passing the ball backwards last night when he had opportunities to play a more defence splitting pass.

I've noticed Kelly does that in most games, but he's a rookie left back so who can blame him. pack is supposed to be our quarter back with passing range, not Kelly

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If we finish this season in mid table we will have done well, so we are likely to lose as many gAmes as we win.We basically are left with 2 centre midfielders, and 3 games in 6 days, whAt do people expect will happen?

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21 minutes ago, BTRFTG said:

Pack had a very poor outing last night but that in no way is deserving of the utter ridiculousness of this post.

He IS the best passer at the club courtesy of the fact he's the ONLY creative passer we have at the club.  

As for stopping us going forward, slowing play down and giving the ball away.... For the latter at least there's an inherent risk when trying to be creative, so what's Hunt's, Brownhill's, Watkins's, Paterson's ( I could go on) excuse? Slowing play down, that's a WeeLee trademark they all do it, angles, triangles and inches. Great in the coaching manuals, crap if you've no midfield creativity or end product. So that leaves stopping us going forward. As per the game against Middlesbrough, guilty. They knew and quickly ensured they went man for man on him ( as any team who've done their homework should against us) and our response, oh yeah, we don't have one as we've nobody else who can pick a pass.

Early days I was quite critical of his abilities but he's worked at his game and he's developed into a very useful unit. He's absolutely no pace (not something one can do much about,) but if he did he wouldn't be playing for us.

CoD ended up in the middle because WeeLee's deluded enough to think we're wholly interchangable. That's why we pretty much only sign wingers yet ended up with Diggery playing wide most of last night. You have an opinion though most sensible folks would rather see CoD bombing down the wing crossing to the tall bloke in the box.

I, too, wonder why Walsh bothers to turn up as on his previous showings he'd struggle to make Stockwood's stiffs.

And finally the pedant. It's incorrect to postulate what it would have been like playing with 10 men. We did. WeeLee picked Paterson.

Is he a microcosm of city then?

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44 minutes ago, chinapig said:

That's handy to know, the next time I mess up at work I'll blame my boss.

Who needs the concept of personal responsibility anyway? So old fashioned.

If my team at work fail, it's my responsibility 

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10 minutes ago, Red_Wizard said:

@Robbored exactly this. We call this Extreme Ownership. If a team fails to deliver, you look towards their Manager. Did the Manager sell the vision? Did the Manager  make clear what was required to get the job done? Did the Manager install belief in his team? If someone apart of that team has a tendency to fail to deliver time and time again. What did the Manager do to make a change?

Unfortunately it goes back to the Manager and the Manager should take full blame. This is what makes one a successful leader. You have to let go of your own ego. Hence why the term is labelled as Extreme Ownership.

I’m sure LJ believed he’d given the right strategy to get the job done but his team failed to deliver a positive result. Is that his fault or theirs? 

You can use all the management jarjon you want and ultimately the responsibility is the managers of course but I repeat, if your staff don’t do as instructed despite knowing the strategy then they have let you down and as LJ said post match that is very frustrating.....

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1 hour ago, Robbored said:

LJ and his assistants had obviously been working with the players on game plan but as others have said none of them played well and were unable to implement said game plan effectively.

Thats why he said post match that he was ‘embarrassed and frustrated’ with the performance.

As in any workplace if a manager shows and instructs his staff how to overcome a particular problem but the staff then fail to deliver, who is at fault?    :dunno:

And who is leading them , inspiring them 

Whose squad is it

 

Edited by BobBobSuperBob

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37 minutes ago, Robbored said:

Obviously he does. He and the coaches see all the players on an almost daily basis in training and LJ regularly mentions players who ‘showed up well’  in training. I’m sure that’s a motivational tool.

Think about the game last night....Wigan are particularly strong in midfield with Powell and Morsy and to combat them LJ added and extra player - Pato - to assist Pack and Brownhill. Consequently the game was a dull affair with neither team creating much. It was a superb cross and an even better header that won the game.

Tough on City and even Paul Cook said that a draw would have been a fair result.

 

What a load of tosh

Paterson in to ‘strengthen’ the midfield in a 4-4-2

Are you for real ?

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1 minute ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

What a load of tosh

Paterson in to ‘strengthen’ the midfield in a 4-4-2

Are you for real ?

Who else Bob?   :dunno:

CoD? who had played more matches because of the internationals.....

We all know that with Smith out injured that the midfield is wafer thin.

I’d argue that it worked tho but unfortunately City were undone by a very well taken goal.

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Big fan of Pack. For me he’s the first name on the team sheet. Has an eye for a pass and can dictate the tempo. Last night though, very poor. But not alone as most were as bad as each other. Wrong decisions from too many in the team both with and without the ball. We could’ve pinched an undeserved point though. A positive perhaps that we were so poor yet were still in the game till the death? Clutching much?

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41 minutes ago, 054123 said:

Is he a microcosm of city then?

Unsurprisingly, if Pack does well so do City, if not the results are obvious given we've no Plan B.

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32 minutes ago, Robbored said:

I’m sure LJ believed he’d given the right strategy to get the job done but his team failed to deliver a positive result. Is that his fault or theirs? 

You can use all the management jarjon you want and ultimately the responsibility is the managers of course but I repeat, if your staff don’t do as instructed despite knowing the strategy then they have let you down and as LJ said post match that is very frustrating.....

I’m sure he did, but evidence shows he did not. Now it is up to him to reflect where he failed, and how next time he can sell the vision of how he wants the team to set up and play.

It’s not jargon @Robbored. In the battlefield it’s that type of methodology between completing your objectives with 0 casualties. Or failing your mission with casualties. You can easily apply the same methodology in any workplace. As said again, yes it is frustrating. But the blame will still fall to Johnson, and rightfully so. 

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58 minutes ago, Robbored said:

Obviously he does. He and the coaches see all the players on an almost daily basis in training and LJ regularly mentions players who ‘showed up well’  in training. I’m sure that’s a motivational tool.

Think about the game last night....Wigan are particularly strong in midfield with Powell and Morsy and to combat them LJ added and extra player - Pato - to assist Pack and Brownhill. Consequently the game was a dull affair with neither team creating much. It was a superb cross and an even better header that won the game.

Tough on City and even Paul Cook said that a draw would have been a fair result.

 

Cant agree with that. Wigan didnt play great but they won every 50/50 and clearly wanted it more. Just for that they deserved to win.

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1 hour ago, robin_unreliant said:

Exactly. He/she is either a bad communicator; has given them the wrong instructions;hasn't got a plan suitable to the skills of the workforce or has recruited the wrong people.

Whilst I think last night was an isolated performance I do tend to agree with you. But by and large I do think it was just a bad day at the office.

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Pack was poor last night. But the biggest culprit for lack of ball retention and stupid decisions was Brownhill. 

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13 minutes ago, Super said:

Cant agree with that. Wigan didnt play great but they won every 50/50 and clearly wanted it more. Just for that they deserved to win.

The Wigan manager said a draw would have been a fair result but you obviously don’t agree with him either

 

 

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11 minutes ago, Robbored said:

The Wigan manager said a draw would have been a fair result but you obviously don’t agree with him either

 

 

I think he was being kind, maybe because he realised they should have been down to ten men. I'm very blinkered when watching City, but even I tough that Wigan were far more threatening. I was amazed when I looked at the stats, their keeper didn't have a real save to make. 
2 poor sides on that evidence , looking at the table not so much maybe.

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3 hours ago, Lee0 said:

Marlon Pack last night didn't just have a bad game, he had a game that was as poor a performance as I've ever seen from a so called defensive/controlling midfielder (and captain).

The general impression I've got from posters on this forum is that he's the best passer at the club, a leader, a possible premiership player..... pfffft.

Yes, I know he played 2 (whoop whoop) quality passes in the 2nd half but that's it, from our 'main man' ! 1st half was a non stop tirade of poor quality passes, not just the ones that were only 5 yd passes that went out of play, those are just embarrassing for the player, the really poor passes were ones that found a team mate and put him on the back foot or put him in a corner surrounded by opposition players.

Marlon stops us, as a team going forward, he slows play down or gives the ball away. 

COD showed last night (and more so against WBA) that he's capable of playing in the middle, I'm hoping he's soon given a chance there ahead of Marlon, COD and JB playing through the middle, attacking, looking to get forward.

The time has come to drop MP, with Korey out it seems as though he's untouchable (I wonder why Liam Walsh turns up).  we, as a team would of been better with 10 men last night.

 

 

One thing I cannot understand. Help me out here?

Why do some women find him attractive. He is like a younger Jimmy Hill.

:dunno:

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16 minutes ago, ... said:

One thing I cannot understand. Help me out here?

Why do some women find him attractive. He is like a younger Jimmy Hill.

:dunno:

It's cos Jimmy Hill was HOT 

Edited by AppyDAZE

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2 hours ago, MattWSM said:

We dont have a real potent striker.

Famara Diedhou missed several opportunities to score. He is not championship standard nor is Taylor. They can perform but lack consistency to be a real threat at this level.

So you can argue all you like with Taylors actual goals to minutes (not games as most were sub appearances) but he does a lot more for the team than get goals, but Fammys goals to minutes ratio is superb and definitely Championship standard. He would have got 20+ last season if it wasn't for his injury - what more can you ask??

Out of interest who should we go and buy in your opinion that are available for 5.3 million and 300k to replace those 2?

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1 hour ago, Red_Wizard said:

@Robbored exactly this. We call this Extreme Ownership. If a team fails to deliver, you look towards their Manager. Did the Manager sell the vision? Did the Manager  make clear what was required to get the job done? Did the Manager install belief in his team? If someone apart of that team has a tendency to fail to deliver time and time again. What did the Manager do to make a change?

Unfortunately it goes back to the Manager and the Manager should take full blame. This is what makes one a successful leader. You have to let go of your own ego. Hence why the term is labelled as Extreme Ownership.

The manager will be working to instructions of those above him/her, so does that absolve Johnson from blame, as Ashton hasn’t correctly inspired/directed him, who in turn hasn’t been appropriately directed by Lansdown?

Seems perfectly reasonable (and would happen in any workplace I’ve been in) to lay accountability at all those who’ve contributed to something going wrong, in last night’s case both manager and players. To remove all accountability from the players seems to suggest the ‘workers’ have no ability to make choices re their own effort/performance etc. Set up/tactics, Johnson needs to take responsibility, effort/bottling tackles etc, surely the players can make choices, not rely on external motivation from others (and if it does have to be external - don’t think it does - receipt of a very decent salary might suffice)?

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3 hours ago, Lee0 said:

Marlon Pack last night didn't just have a bad game, he had a game that was as poor a performance as I've ever seen from a so called defensive/controlling midfielder (and captain).

The general impression I've got from posters on this forum is that he's the best passer at the club, a leader, a possible premiership player..... pfffft.

Yes, I know he played 2 (whoop whoop) quality passes in the 2nd half but that's it, from our 'main man' ! 1st half was a non stop tirade of poor quality passes, not just the ones that were only 5 yd passes that went out of play, those are just embarrassing for the player, the really poor passes were ones that found a team mate and put him on the back foot or put him in a corner surrounded by opposition players.

Marlon stops us, as a team going forward, he slows play down or gives the ball away. 

COD showed last night (and more so against WBA) that he's capable of playing in the middle, I'm hoping he's soon given a chance there ahead of Marlon, COD and JB playing through the middle, attacking, looking to get forward.

The time has come to drop MP, with Korey out it seems as though he's untouchable (I wonder why Liam Walsh turns up).  we, as a team would of been better with 10 men last night.

 

 

Your post is a little uneven.

What is the role of a defensive holding midfielder?

If you consider it to be part supportive, resetting possession, providing an option to retain possession the role has to frequently slow the game down. 

According to squawka and stats bomb 68% of Marlon Packs passes go forward and 80% hit their target, it is not Micheal Carrick but its not bad. 

Edited by Cowshed
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It's fairly straightforward: when Pack has a bad game, the entire side struggles. He really is the lynchpin and we depend on him to get the motor running.

We've seen it before - and we'll see it again, sadly.

That isn't exaggerating Marlon's merits as a player. It's just the way this team slots together. 

An in-form Pack starts most of the forward moves and also breaks up attacks coming centrally, stopping runners coming straight onto the defenders. An out-of-form Pack does neither and is a liability.

 

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7 minutes ago, The Swan and Cemetery said:

The manager will be working to instructions of those above him/her, so does that absolve Johnson from blame, as Ashton hasn’t correctly inspired/directed him, who in turn hasn’t been appropriately directed by Lansdown?

Absolute nonsense. 

SL nor MA dictate who should play in any match. That decision is entirely down to LJ who considers the views of his assistants before selecting a match day squad.

Most, if not all  managers would not be prepared to have the owner or CEO telling him who to select.

 

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12 minutes ago, Robbored said:

Absolute nonsense. 

SL nor MA dictate who should play in any match. That decision is entirely down to LJ who considers the views of his assistants before selecting a match day squad.

Most, if not all  managers would not be prepared to have the owner or CEO telling him who to select.

 

That’s very much the opposite of the point I was making. Hoped my full post made that clear, but maybe it didn’t. I’ll seek further instruction from my manager. 

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Pack seemed to be emerging as a leader, even cajoling others when he himself was not playing well.

False dawn it seems, unfortunately, no signs of captaincy or leadership last night, and an intermittent leader is no leader at all.

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It continues to amaze me that a player or team gets flayed like this after a couple of bad results, despite the previous four wins. Can’t people get a grip?

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3 minutes ago, Leveller said:

It continues to amaze me that a player or team gets flayed like this after a couple of bad results, despite the previous four wins. Can’t people get a grip?

It's not so much the result it's more the completely lacklustre and unfocused performance.

No excuse for such a display whatsoever and fans have every right to be very disappointed, and very critical.

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3 minutes ago, Nogbad the Bad said:

It's not so much the result it's more the completely lacklustre and unfocused performance.

No excuse for such a display whatsoever and fans have every right to be very disappointed, and very critical.

It’s one game. They don’t do it on purpose. As long as good performances outnumber bad ones, people should react appropriately. By all means criticise one game, but dont react as if the whole setup is now rotten. Which many do, sadly.

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2 hours ago, Leveller said:

It’s one game. They don’t do it on purpose. As long as good performances outnumber bad ones, people should react appropriately. By all means criticise one game, but dont react as if the whole setup is now rotten. Which many do, sadly.

Agree up to a point, however I think you're being a little over protective to what are, after all, professional sportsmen and coaches.

Of course we we accept we will lose games, but even then there is a standard of performance and effort we have a right to expect in every game.

When the players fall far below that standard, like last night, concerns and criticisms will naturally be aired.

The City fans in the pub where I watched the game were fuming at that performance and it's only right imo. that those feelings should be reflected on here.

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