Pack....deserving his own thread

[Lee0]

36 minutes ago, j1974 said:

Do I think Pack as a midfielder is our answer if we wish to be challenging in the top 6? No as his speed over the ground restricts him/us attacking and defensive but his forward passing has definitely improved over the last couple of years. 

Improved ? maybe, good enough ? Definitely not (not this season so far anyway)

[Lee0]

28 minutes ago, Trueredsupporte said:

why not put it in this thread its related? if Packs passing accuracy is poor at 80% what should it be? what is the average?

Why not ?

Because whoever I put forward as my opinion you'll jump on and add nothing.....not much different from what you're doing now.....YAWN !

[Lee0]

17 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

Here to help … Or have a go (unlike some).

Statically if last seasons (they are more reliable) metrics are used Korey Smith had an accuracy of 81% a tiny % above Pack. If length of pass x difficulty and direction is used to assess quality … It is Marlon Pack.

Squad average was 74% .. Marlon Pack was higher. 

If we use our eyes … Mine say its Marlon Pack. 

I've no problem with stats, but to take them as the whole picture is (in my eyes) foolish, there are way to many variables.

If you use YOUR eyes it's MP.... I've no problem with that, I prefer your opinion over a few green arrows and have more respect for that POV.

[BobBobSuperBob]

21 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

Here to help … Or have a go (unlike some).

Statically if last seasons (they are more reliable) metrics are used Korey Smith had an accuracy of 81% a tiny % above Pack. If length of pass x difficulty and direction is used to assess quality … It is Marlon Pack.

Squad average was 74% .. Marlon Pack was higher. 

If we use our eyes … Mine say its Marlon Pack. 

Thanks - so do mine

And a defence splitting pass that created a goal in our current side

The wise money would be on Marlon Pack

[Lee0]

2 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

Thanks - so do mine

And a defence splitting pass that created a goal in our current side

The wise money would be on Marlon Pack

1 defence splitting pass in 9 games and that's the best we have ?....really ?

Its fine to see him as the best passer but to use 1 pass is a poor argument for it, my argument that he puts multiple balls out of play under no pressure holds much more water !

[Lee0]

7 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

Thanks - so do mine

And a defence splitting pass that created a goal in our current side

The wise money would be on Marlon Pack

Just to add.....it was a pass to an offside player, that doesn't really make it a bad pass (it was quality) but what pass would you of used if the goal was ruled out ?

[Cowshed]

59 minutes ago, Lee0 said:

I've no problem with stats, but to take them as the whole picture is (in my eyes) foolish, there are way to many variables.

If you use YOUR eyes it's MP.... I've no problem with that, I prefer your opinion over a few green arrows and have more respect for that POV.

 

50 minutes ago, Lee0 said:

1 defence splitting pass in 9 games and that's the best we have ?....really ?

Its fine to see him as the best passer but to use 1 pass is a poor argument for it, my argument that he puts multiple balls out of play under no pressure holds much more water !

Nowhere I have said stats provide a full picture.

Its more than one defence splitting pass isn't it? It is more than one key pass isn't it? And it is more than one first line pass isn't it? 

It is certainly not six inches forward and eight yards sideways.

What you display is known as confirmation bias. Our eyes and minds do deceive us. 

Because you have seen Marlon Pack put a ball, or balls out of play you then believe he puts multiple balls out of play continually. He does not … I if I choose could provide diagrams and stats to prove factually that he goes entire games without putting balls off the pitch.

Your arguments are just that. But they are ill formed. As a coach you can reasonably expect Marlon Pack to put balls out of play occasionally as part of the process of looking for key passes. Opinion = If he did not he would be playing too conservatively. Risk has to be taken for reward. In regards to stats we can use them to assess if Marlon Packs passes really ARE as you assert by comparing them to norms and the highest standards. Our bias there can be reframed by simple detail, and our expectations tempered by pragmatism - There are International holding midfielders with marginally higher passing % accuracies, but they make far more passes over a game, week, month …

Marlon Packs passing can be fairly viewed as above average in the context of BCFC/The Championship using our eyes but backed up by metrics … You despite being asked to explain what your expectations are use unknown benchmarks. Pirlo? 

Its a forum and we can freely post made up bollocks .. I as a coach prefer not to. As a coach you should refer to your football education and insists that you know what you know. The people you coach will see through you if you coach bollocks and make things up, even the kids ...

[BobBobSuperBob]

45 minutes ago, Lee0 said:

Just to add.....it was a pass to an offside player, that doesn't really make it a bad pass (it was quality) but what pass would you of used if the goal was ruled out ?

Which single pass in the first nine games are you referring to ?

[Lee0]

16 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

 

Nowhere I have said stats provide a full picture.

Its more than one defence splitting pass isn't it? It is more than one key pass isn't it? And it is more than one first line pass isn't it? 

It is certainly not six inches forward and eight yards sideways.

What you display is known as confirmation bias. Our eyes and minds do deceive us. 

Because you have seen Marlon Pack put a ball, or balls out of play you then believe he puts multiple balls out of play continually. He does not … I if I choose could provide diagrams and stats to prove factually that he goes entire games without putting balls off the pitch.

Your arguments are just that. But they are ill formed. As a coach you can reasonably expect Marlon Pack to put balls out of play occasionally as part of the process of looking for key passes. Opinion = If he did not he would be playing too conservatively. Risk has to be taken for reward. In regards to stats we can use them to assess if Marlon Packs passes really ARE as you assert by comparing them to norms and the highest standards. Our bias there can be reframed by simple detail, and our expectations tempered by pragmatism - There are International holding midfielders with marginally higher passing % accuracies, but they make far more passes over a game, week, month …

Marlon Packs passing can be fairly viewed as above average using our eyes but backed up by metrics. 

Its a forum and we can freely post made up bollocks .. I as a coach prefer not to. As a coach you should refer to your football education and insists that you know what you know. The people you coach will see through you if you coach bollocks and make things up, even the kids ...

You're not going to let the 6 inch 8 yards go are you !

I, as a coach too, prefer what I see over what some guy that puts up a diagram but doesn't say what it's from tells me what it says.

its a forum, I could put up a diagram and say it backs my point up but I don't need to, I know what I've seen this season.

Its fine that you like and rate MP, I like him, but this season his performances, at best, have been poor, and that's seen through my eyes having been at 8 of our 9 games so far this season.

[TV Tom]

28 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

 

Nowhere I have said stats provide a full picture.

Its more than one defence splitting pass isn't it? It is more than one key pass isn't it? And it is more than one first line pass isn't it? 

It is certainly not six inches forward and eight yards sideways.

What you display is known as confirmation bias. Our eyes and minds do deceive us. 

Because you have seen Marlon Pack put a ball, or balls out of play you then believe he puts multiple balls out of play continually. He does not … I if I choose could provide diagrams and stats to prove factually that he goes entire games without putting balls off the pitch.

Your arguments are just that. But they are ill formed. As a coach you can reasonably expect Marlon Pack to put balls out of play occasionally as part of the process of looking for key passes. Opinion = If he did not he would be playing too conservatively. Risk has to be taken for reward. In regards to stats we can use them to assess if Marlon Packs passes really ARE as you assert by comparing them to norms and the highest standards. Our bias there can be reframed by simple detail, and our expectations tempered by pragmatism - There are International holding midfielders with marginally higher passing % accuracies, but they make far more passes over a game, week, month …

Marlon Packs passing can be fairly viewed as above average in the context of BCFC/The Championship using our eyes but backed up by metrics … You despite being asked to explain what your expectations are use unknown benchmarks. Pirlo? 

Its a forum and we can freely post made up bollocks .. I as a coach prefer not to. As a coach you should refer to your football education and insists that you know what you know. The people you coach will see through you if you coach bollocks and make things up, even the kids ...

I see the games with my own eyes and invariably I see Pack making short passes to the side and backwards all the time and doing it well enough on the other hand i’ve never seen a player attempt so many long diagonal passes that more often than not sails over the wide man’s head into touch, i’m not MP’s biggest fan but agree that his game has improved a lot over the last 2 years and please can we drop this myth that he had Man City players in his pocket

[Lee0]

25 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

Which single pass in the first nine games are you referring to ?

Away at Bolton to AW..... and MP may of been brilliant that day, it's the only game I've missed (Sods law I guess)

If I'm wrong, apologies...... but I can't think of another, which is probably a point of my original post !

[Cowshed]

32 minutes ago, Lee0 said:

You're not going to let the 6 inch 8 yards go are you !

I, as a coach too, prefer what I see over what some guy that puts up a diagram but doesn't say what it's from tells me what it says.

its a forum, I could put up a diagram and say it backs my point up but I don't need to, I know what I've seen this season.

Its fine that you like and rate MP, I like him, but this season his performances, at best, have been poor, and that's seen through my eyes having been at 8 of our 9 games so far this season.

The diagram … Came from the link that was posted and I did indicate clearly what it was. You can it see it and thousands of others by clicking on the link. The details on that site are real, you on this thread are making things up to support what can then only be ill informed points and arguments. 

24 minutes ago, harrys said:

I see the games with my own eyes and invariably I see Pack making short passes to the side and backwards all the time and doing it well enough on the other hand

And does that fit your view of a holding midfield player?

24 minutes ago, harrys said:

 i’ve never seen a player attempt so many long diagonal passes that more often than not sails over the wide man’s head into touch, i’m not MP’s biggest fan but agree that his game has improved a lot over the last 2 years 

If you want your deep lying midfielder to be a form of play maker he should be attempting to take risks. It then follows what are your expectations. Last season I can see in seconds 176 successful long balls, 120 unsuccessful, of that 120 there are no obvious sailing into touch themes … Not great but not bad v Championship norms. 

If your view is similar to mine that the positional demands see Marlon Pack as a form of pivot part playmaker, part keeping it simple and retaining possession he is in my view above average in the Championship. I enjoy watching the player and think he is an asset to the team. 

 

[Lee0]

8 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

The diagram … Came from the link that was posted and I did indicate clearly what it was. You can it see it and thousands of others by clicking on the link. The details on that site are real, you on this thread are making things up to support what can then only be ill informed points and arguments. 

 

You didn't say which game it was from, which way was forward or how many of those passes put a team mate in a difficult position.

I've made nothing up, everything is my opinion formed from what I've seen, not from a diagram that doesn't show the whole story. 

Do you watch the games on BBC live text ?

 

 

 

[TV Tom]

5 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

The diagram … Came from the link that was posted and I did indicate clearly what it was. You can it see it and thousands of others by clicking on the link. The details on that site are real, you on this thread are making things up to support what can then only be ill informed points and arguments. 

 

And does that fit your view of a holding midfield player?

Which if you want your deep lying midfielder to be a form of play maker he should be attempting?

It then follows what are your expectations. Last season I can see in seconds 176 successful long balls, 120 unsuccessful, of that 120 there are no obvious sailing into touch themes … Not great but not bad v Championship norms. 

If your view is similar to mine that the positional demands see Marlon Pack as a form of pivot part playmaker, part keeping it simple and retaining possession he is in my view above average in the Championship. I enjoy watching the player and think he is an asset to the team. 

 

All about opinions mate, not sure what the definition of a playmaker is, I would call Barry Bannan or Jack Grealish a playmaker which is the complete opposite type of player to MP. I take very little notice of statistics ( lies, damned lies & statistics) but if you are going to quote stats then according to your figures %40 of his long passes are unsuccessful which in my mind is pretty poor.

[Major Isewater]

3 hours ago, j1974 said:

Packs passing is generally fairly good but I think there has been occasions when Pack's passing has been loose (1st half Blackburn, Wigan) where he seems to have a big lack of concertration giving it away in dangerous area's and then he has a big problem because speed to win the ball back he has not, infact it looks like he is running in treacle! 

Ground staff out .

[Cowshed]

13 minutes ago, harrys said:

All about opinions mate, not sure what the definition of a playmaker is, I would call Barry Bannan or Jack Grealish a playmaker which is the complete opposite type of player to MP. I take very little notice of statistics ( lies, damned lies & statistics) but if you are going to quote stats then according to your figures %40 of his long passes are unsuccessful which in my mind is pretty poor.

Grealish does not play deep and commits players 1v1. 

I like Bannan. He plays further up the pitch and can orchestrate play. 

But I referred to deep lying play makers. At its English peak even Scholes and Carrick lost one in five long passes. Scholes diagonals frequently were intercepted. 

Marlon Pack? He is more a poor mans Henderson for Bristol City being part holding and keeping it simple and part playmaker. He sits in retains and releases adeptly, switches adeptly and his big diagonals … Well they are a high risk pass and marginally more hit their target than miss, his success there is unexceptional, it is not particularly poor. 

 

[BobBobSuperBob]

3 hours ago, Lee0 said:

Away at Bolton to AW..... and MP may of been brilliant that day, it's the only game I've missed (Sods law I guess)

If I'm wrong, apologies...... but I can't think of another, which is probably a point of my original post !

Straight away in just in Sheff Utd  game I can think of a stunning reverse pass inside the full back to put LK into a great position on bye line and us with a great chance , and a stunning ball to put  Diedhiou through who controlled and flashed his half volley wildly wide  when he should have scored 

[BobBobSuperBob]

Rather than focus on Pack @Lee0 I’d recommend keeping an eye on teammates movement off the ball ,

or more often , complete lack of

 

Pack has plenty enough quality to play the killer pass on a regular basis IF he gets the movement

Give him options and he won’t give the ball away very often

The run should attract the pass

Not the other way around

Our off the ball movement is non existent at times and you could play Pirlo in there and he’d struggle for a lot of the time

[TV Tom]

2 hours ago, Cowshed said:

Grealish does not play deep and commits players 1v1. 

I like Bannan. He plays further up the pitch and can orchestrate play. 

But I referred to deep lying play makers. At its English peak even Scholes and Carrick lost one in five long passes. Scholes diagonals frequently were intercepted. 

Marlon Pack? He is more a poor mans Henderson for Bristol City being part holding and keeping it simple and part playmaker. He sits in retains and releases adeptly, switches adeptly and his big diagonals … Well they are a high risk pass and marginally more hit their target than miss, his success there is unexceptional, it is not particularly poor. 

 

MP has a job which he does adequately apart from his passing, what he isn’t by any stretch of imagination is a playmaker

[Lee0]

32 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

Straight away in just in Sheff Utd  game I can think of a stunning reverse pass inside the full back to put LK into a great position on bye line and us with a great chance , and a stunning ball to put  Diedhiou through who controlled and flashed his half volley wildly wide  when he should have scored 

Fair enough, I thought that was one of his ok games too. (Though should of scored is a bit ott if we're thinking of the same thing)

 

[Lee0]

17 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

Rather than focus on Pack @Lee0 I’d recommend keeping an eye on teammates movement off the ball ,

or more often , complete lack of

 

Pack has plenty enough quality to play the killer pass on a regular basis IF he gets the movement

Give him options and he won’t give the ball away very often

The run should attract the pass

Not the other way around

Our off the ball movement is non existent at times and you could play Pirlo in there and he’d struggle for a lot of the time

I don't completly disagree with this.

There are times when we lack any movement at all, even from a throw in....but, and there were a few who picked up on this in Malaga during the summer, Marlons first reaction when receiving  the ball is to turn back or inside, players stop making forward runs if they are never spotted.

7 minutes ago, harrys said:

MP has a job which he does adequately apart from his passing, what he isn’t by any stretch of imagination is a playmaker

He definitely doesn't make us play

[BobBobSuperBob]

1 minute ago, Lee0 said:

Fair enough, I thought that was one of his ok games too. (Though should of scored is a bit ott if we're thinking of the same thing)

 

Famara had done the hard bit , set it with his first touch 

Sat up nicely on Half volley 

A top striker even in Championship would be dissapointed not to finish or certainly severely test the keeper

......anyway

I havnt always been a Marlon Fan but he’s grown on me and improved year on year and as others have suggested IMHO Is fundamental to how we play and his form can often reflect ours ......or does our poor form make him look ordinary or poor (See my above post re off ball movement)

He like virtually all had a poor game Friday , but why - him , or a lack of options ?

(I havnt gone back thro game yet to look more closely) 

He is one of the few that will take the ball under pressure and virtually always provide an outlet for a teammate and has a mixed role in keeping possession but also expected to play killer balls when the opportunity arises

I think you’re focusing on the wrong flaw / thing personally

Hes not Pirlo but he’s one of the better or best passers IMHO in the Championship 

Norwood is a fine player and very very good passer but also gave the ball away on a number of occasions against us

Dont want to pick on him particularly but , in comparison when does JB ever play a killer ball ? (And without looking I bet he gives the ball away far more than MP) 

[TV Tom]

3 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

Famara had done the hard bit , set it with his first touch 

Sat up nicely on Half volley 

A top striker even in Championship would be dissapointed not to finish or certainly severely test the keeper

......anyway

I havnt always been a Marlon Fan but he’s grown on me and improved year on year and as others have suggested IMHO Is fundamental to how we play and his form can often reflect ours ......or does our poor form make him look ordinary or poor (See my above post re off ball movement)

He like virtually all had a poor game Friday , but why - him , or a lack of options ?

(I havnt gone back thro game yet to look more closely) 

He is one of the few that will take the ball under pressure and virtually always provide an outlet for a teammate and has a mixed role in keeping possession but also expected to play killer balls when the opportunity arises

I think you’re focusing on the wrong flaw / thing personally

Hes not Pirlo but he’s one of the better or best passers IMHO in the Championship 

Norwood is a fine player and very very good passer but also gave the ball away on a number of occasions against us

Dont want to pick on him particularly but , in comparison when does JB ever play a killer ball ? (And without looking I bet he gives the ball away far more than MP) 

Oh dear, I am totally losing the plot here, how anyone can believe that  MP is one of the best passers of the ball in the division is beyond me, as has already been stated, there was a reason why no other club came in for him during the summer window

[Red-Robbo]

On 23/09/2018 at 14:08, harrys said:

My comment was more aimed at you calling Pack our “Lynch pin” and stating that when Pack has a poor game the whole team play bad, also despite my age my brain is fully in gear thank you. As I stated, there is a reason why no one came in for Pack during the summer

No one came in - to your knowledge. There were certainly rumours of interest, but not everyone stays at the club because everyone else thinks they are crap. 

Look. I'm not saying that Pack is the most skilled player, let alone the best player in the club. I'm saying it's a curious fact that when he has a poor game, others struggle. We depend on him to both break up play before it hits the defence and to be one of the main forward engines for getting the ball upfield. When he isn't doing that - and sometimes his touch just seems to completely desert him and he fails to make 5 yard passes - the whole side falls to pieces. Especially when Korey is out.

[Garland-sweden]

For me Pack is a good player. Last game, forget about it. We were poor but new game on friday. Think we will play good and win. COYR!!!

[BobBobSuperBob]

1 hour ago, harrys said:

Oh dear, I am totally losing the plot here, how anyone can believe that  MP is one of the best passers of the ball in the division is beyond me, as has already been stated, there was a reason why no other club came in for him during the summer window

Even if that’s true Harry I’d say it would have more to do with mobility and pace than his passing ability

Have a guess which City player was in last seasons  top 10 players in pass completion in Championship and I’ll explain why I think you should look at the wider picture 

[Davefevs]

I’m not sure what we are expecting of Marlon Pack?

We are imho an average team trying to make the best of the sum of its parts.  Marlon is an experienced Championship player, who gets the nod virtually every game since we’ve been promoted.  He is not Glenn Hoddle, nor is he asked to play like Glenn Hoddle.  He is a deep lying midfielder (I believe that’s the term), he is not a DM, typified by Makelele.  He is not a box-to-box midfielder like Paul Ince (younger days).  He is not an AM like Frank Lampard.

The Henderson comparison is probably quite good, except Henderson has better energy, pace, Close’s didn’t much better.  If Pack had the pace, he would be more like Henderson.  Henderson better technically (with feet and brain)...that’s why he’s a top Prem player and an international.

Marlon plays the pivot / quarterback role (both LJ and SC have used that term).  By definition, pivot means all directions, so he’s never gonna play every pass forward is he?  As for Quarterback, does a QB always bomb a pass for a touchdown?  No, sometimes they go short and sideways, sometimes a handoff backwards over a tiny distance.

When City play well, typically Marlon controls the tempo, keeps us in possession, make himself available, gives and gets, and tries to progress us up the pitch, not necessarily by passing it himself.  The old adage of Sometimes got to back to go forward is true.  When we play poorly, we typically get strung out, the distances from Pack to attack become larger, therefore more risky passes, possession given up as a result, often with our wide players too far ahead of the ball.  Pack / Smith / Brownhill then become exposed, get passed around, trying to close the ball from too big a distance.  The beauty of the 460 was all 3 units (became 2 units really) were condensed, and then when you scoring an attack you are all closer together to play through the lines.

@Cowshed in the first half of last season was Pack’s passing average shorter?

@Lee0 are you really saying you just don’t rate Pack?  That’s fine, we all have our opinions on players.  To base it on his passing is probably not taking into consideration of his role for us in CM.

Wade Elliott rarely passed over 10 yards (in my eyes - no stats), often backwards and sideways, just kept the ball moving and himself moving, gave it / got it, ran off of his markers (lazy in Lg1), created space for others.  Importantly, when he got in and around the box, especially from wide, he seemed (again with my eyes) to rarely waste a ball to create a chance.  We didn’t replace him in 15/16.

[TV Tom]

3 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I’m not sure what we are expecting of Marlon Pack?

We are imho an average team trying to make the best of the sum of its parts.  Marlon is an experienced Championship player, who gets the nod virtually every game since we’ve been promoted.  He is not Glenn Hoddle, nor is he asked to play like Glenn Hoddle.  He is a deep lying midfielder (I believe that’s the term), he is not a DM, typified by Makelele.  He is not a box-to-box midfielder like Paul Ince (younger days).  He is not an AM like Frank Lampard.

The Henderson comparison is probably quite good, except Henderson has better energy, pace, Close’s didn’t much better.  If Pack had the pace, he would be more like Henderson.  Henderson better technically (with feet and brain)...that’s why he’s a top Prem player and an international.

Marlon plays the pivot / quarterback role (both LJ and SC have used that term).  By definition, pivot means all directions, so he’s never gonna play every pass forward is he?  As for Quarterback, does a QB always bomb a pass for a touchdown?  No, sometimes they go short and sideways, sometimes a handoff backwards over a tiny distance.

When City play well, typically Marlon controls the tempo, keeps us in possession, make himself available, gives and gets, and tries to progress us up the pitch, not necessarily by passing it himself.  The old adage of Sometimes got to back to go forward is true.  When we play poorly, we typically get strung out, the distances from Pack to attack become larger, therefore more risky passes, possession given up as a result, often with our wide players too far ahead of the ball.  Pack / Smith / Brownhill then become exposed, get passed around, trying to close the ball from too big a distance.  The beauty of the 460 was all 3 units (became 2 units really) were condensed, and then when you scoring an attack you are all closer together to play through the lines.

@Cowshed in the first half of last season was Pack’s passing average shorter?

@Lee0 are you really saying you just don’t rate Pack?  That’s fine, we all have our opinions on players.  To base it on his passing is probably not taking into consideration of his role for us in CM.

Wade Elliott rarely passed over 10 yards (in my eyes - no stats), just kept the ball moving and himself moving, gave it / got it, ran off of his markers (lazy in Lg1), created space for others.  Importantly, when he got in and around the box, especially from wide, he seemed (again with my eyes) to rarely waste a ball to create a chance.  We didn’t replace him in 15/16.

Oh for a young Wade Elliott in our team

[Davefevs]

4 minutes ago, harrys said:

Oh for a young Wade Elliott in our team

Funnily enough it was the emergence of Pack after Elliott got sent off v Swindon, and then becoming an auto-pick later that season that hastened his end at City (to take over the youth team).  I’d have brought him back in (tail between my legs) at the start of 15/16 after our poor start.  He was still good enough / intelligent enough to play....not 90 minutes week in, week out, but contribute minutes from the start and end of games.

[Trueredsupporter]

22 hours ago, Lee0 said:

Why not ?

Because whoever I put forward as my opinion you'll jump on and add nothing.....not much different from what you're doing now.....YAWN !

well others have put forward their opinions and backed it up. i agree that Marlon Pack is a bit of a play maker and is the best passer of the ball at City. so as you disagree (???) its not so odd you are getting asked who is better???