Sol Campbell earmarked to work with England U21's

[Lrrr]

The move is part of a Football Association plan to create Black, Asian and Minority Ethnic (BAME) coaching placements "across all England teams".

Is this potentially not counter productive and could cause some resentment to those who are placed in roles? Sol Campbell's only coaching role seems to have been assistant manager for Trinidad & Tobago, does this make him more qualified than the coaches who have worked for years in the English game? Paul Nevin will work with Gareth Southgate having had numerous coaching roles both in England and abroad.

[Red Army 75]

I think it’s pathetic. There is more opportunity for everyone regardless of sex or creed . If you’re good enough doesn’t matter who you are . Giving jobs to people because off their skin colour or sex and not to a more qualified person doesn’t sit well with me . 

[UREDS_91]

Positive discrimination, is still discrimination. Its pathetic. 

[LondonBristolian]

As someone who is not BAME, I've no idea how BAME people feel about initiatives like this and I'd prefer not to second guess. I'd assume there are a range of views, as there would be with anything.

There's no doubt that the % of BAME managers and coaches is well below the number of BAME players and there is significant anecdotal evidence - I am not sure what has been done statistic-wise - that there are a significant number of BAME former players getting their badges and then not getting opportunities. I've no idea if that is to do with racism or discrimination but the arguments that all BAME coaches who get badges are not good enough, or don't really want coaching jobs, is wholly unconvincing at best.

I find this whole initiative a blunt tool and one would hope you wouldn't need initiatives in an ideal world but I also think those saying "everyone gets an equal opportunity so we don't know this" miss the fact that hoping something is the case doesn't make it so.

The problem, of course, is football manager jobs are not like jobs in many other sectors in that they are seldom advertised, there's scarcely an application process and the majority of candidates are headhunted rather than going through a standard recruitment process. It would be impractical to impose a more traditional recruitment process with applications, shortlisting, interviews and detailed feedback on candidates so you could demonstrate WHY people were and were not getting jobs (though there is an argument it might actually lead to better candidates) but it does lead to a wholly untransparent process where none of us actually know for sure whether discrimination is in play or not.

The Rooney Rule worked in the US. The proof in the pudding will be if, five years after this initiative launches, there are more BAME coaches in jobs. Then we'll be able to see whether or not it actually worked. 

[WhistleHappy]

First the BBC, now the FA …..  competency and being right for whatever the job is should be all that matters regardless of skin colour and ethnicity, positive discrimination is equally as hideous as the opposite, it's wrong and imo not white, (oops I mean not right )   

[jj77]

It says earmarked to work with.

He'll probably be one of the coaching staff and why would anyone have an issue with that?

He probably knows the game inside out.

[Cowshed]

47 minutes ago, hodge said:

The move is part of a Football Association plan to create Black, Asian and Minority Ethnic (BAME) coaching placements "across all England teams".

Is this potentially not counter productive and could cause some resentment to those who are placed in roles? Sol Campbell's only coaching role seems to have been assistant manager for Trinidad & Tobago, does this make him more qualified than the coaches who have worked for years in the English game? Paul Nevin will work with Gareth Southgate having had numerous coaching roles both in England and abroad.

Having numerous coaching roles is not necessarily a positive. It is factual that those who are in coaching roles, and those who are being re-employed again and again are overwhelmingly white and that this does not reflect football and society. 

Its a white merry go round. It has to be changed in some form unless people somehow believe the disparity reflects coaching skill amongst non white coaches.

Sol Campbell? He may be super talented. He might also turn out to be not as talented as he believes he is … It will be apparent.

[Lrrr]

7 minutes ago, JonDolman said:

I remember laughing at Sol Campbell's chosen England world cup side. Can't find it now but remember thinking he's better off never going into management if he thinks that should be the side. The England under 21 head coach is a very important role that should only be given to the best possible candidate. 

For me personally because he's being brought in under the BAME initiative, as said his only job working in football is assistant manager of Trinidad and Tobago for a short while. Infact he's mostly been running his own (non sport) business since his retirement. He's complained numerous times about not being able to get a job in football despite his own quote of "I don't want to go too low that it's a struggle, and I don't want to go too low that I'm under someone and thinking 'what am I doing here?' I would rather be managing a club myself". So unwilling to get experience working at a lower level but expects to walk into a manager role at a league job, infact earlier this month he was favourite to be manager of Maidstone United, a month later he's now getting a job with England's U21 team, what has he done post playing career to earn the position? How many more qualified and infact more qualified BAME coaches are there being looked over for him? He's done nothing but bitch and moan rather than knuckling down and getting on with a job.

[Bar BS3]

Disgraceful!

The best person for the job (any job) should be appointed, whether they are Male/female, Black/white, fully able/disabled. 

So if LJ, for instance, were to apply for this position, he’d be rejected for the sole reason that he’s white..? And that’s not racist..?! 

 

[Red Army 75]

2 minutes ago, hodge said:

For me personally because he's being brought in under the BAME initiative, as said his only job working in football is assistant manager of Trinidad and Tobago for a short while. Infact he's mostly been running his own (non sport) business since his retirement. He's complained numerous times about not being able to get a job in football despite his own quote of "I don't want to go too low that it's a struggle, and I don't want to go too low that I'm under someone and thinking 'what am I doing here?' I would rather be managing a club myself". So unwilling to get experience working at a lower level but expects to walk into a manager role at a league job, infact earlier this month he was favourite to be manager of Maidstone United, a month later he's now getting a job with England's U21 team, what has he done post playing career to earn the position? How many more qualified and infact more qualified BAME coaches are there being looked over for him? He's done nothing but bitch and moan rather than knuckling down and getting on with a job.

Fantastic post. 

[Lrrr]

6 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

Having numerous coaching roles is not necessarily a positive. It is factual that those who are in coaching roles, and those who are being re-employed again and again are overwhelmingly white and that this does not reflect football and society. 

Its a white merry go round. It has to be changed in some form unless people somehow believe the disparity reflects coaching skill amongst non white coaches.

Sol Campbell? He may be super talented. He might also turn out to be not as talented as he believes he is … It will be apparent.

With regard to Nevin having had numerous jobs there's a clear path of progression with him from non league, abroad to Norwich City and onto Brighton as a first team coach before taking the role with England. The point is he's worked to where he is compared to Campbell who refuses to take a job at a lower level thinking himself better than the position rather than taking any job in football to get more experience.

[LondonBristolian]

18 minutes ago, jj77 said:

It says earmarked to work with.

He'll probably be one of the coaching staff and why would anyone have an issue with that?

He probably knows the game inside out.

The irony is that I suspect that if, say, John Terry got a job coaching the England U21s, I doubt anyone would question his lack of coaching experience but see it as him getting a first step on the ladder. 

Reading through the article, it looks as if it's not actually a job either - it's a placement for a coupe of games so someone can get experience:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/45730544

It does feel people are making a little more out of this than is actually there. 

[dragonreds]

just read Terry Conner got the job. I may be wrong but a deserved case

[Cowshed]

4 minutes ago, hodge said:

With regard to Nevin having had numerous jobs there's a clear path of progression with him from non league, abroad to Norwich City and onto Brighton as a first team coach before taking the role with England. The point is he's worked to where he is compared to Campbell who refuses to take a job at a lower level thinking himself better than the position rather than taking any job in football to get more experience.

Think more broadly than Campbell. Terry Connor has also been invited to support Gareth Southgate as well. He certainly does have a history of coaching behind him. 

However you are missing a point. If what is an overwhelmingly white framework of coaching is not addressed how do non white coaches break into it?

You have highlighted how unbalanced it is. The coaches with clear progressions are overwhelmingly white, the shortlisting is overwhelmingly white … And the circle will go on and on unless it is addressed.

[LondonBristolian]

12 minutes ago, Bar BS3 said:

Disgraceful!

The best person for the job (any job) should be appointed, whether they are Male/female, Black/white, fully able/disabled. 

So if LJ, for instance, were to apply for this position, he’d be rejected for the sole reason that he’s white..? And that’s not racist..?! 

 

Where did you see that white people are being rejected if they apply for jobs? As far as I can see the FA have said:

a) They are going to interview at least one BAME person for each position IF there is a suitably qualified applicant. They then may or may not give them the job. Assuming they are not interviewing one candidate, one assumes white people would be able to apply to.

b) They are going to try to address the perceived difficulty BAME people have in getting experience by offering short-term placements to BAME coaches to help them get experience. Again that does not mean they are going to refuse to recruit white people to jobs at the FA. 

[ballwinningcentrehalf]

Topics of this ilk always make it pretty easy to spot the 40 year old +, white males of this forum, at least.

[Bar BS3]

2 minutes ago, LondonBristolian said:

Where did you see that white people are being rejected if they apply for jobs? As far as I can see the FA have said:

a) They are going to interview at least one BAME person for each position IF there is a suitably qualified applicant. They then may or may not give them the job. Assuming they are not interviewing one candidate, one assumes white people would be able to apply to.

b) They are going to try to address the perceived difficulty BAME people have in getting experience by offering short-term placements to BAME coaches to help them get experience. Again that does not mean they are going to refuse to recruit white people to jobs at the FA. 

I see, fair enough. I only read the headlines. 

What happens if no BAME people apply..?

Why the need (other than political correctness) to announce that BAME people will be interviewed..?

Surely every applicant who matches the required criteria should be considered for interview and saying that BAME people will specifically get interviewed is degrading to them (not getting interview on merit) and takes the place of an interviewee who may be better, but not of the required skin colour. 

[TheCulturalBomb]

I haven't had any luck with supermodels lately. If I complain to someone hard enough it must mean I deserve them.

[Red Army 75]

2 minutes ago, ballwinningcentrehalf said:

Topics of this ilk always make it pretty easy to spot the 40 year old +, white males of this forum, at least.

Go on . Please explain you’re post

[Bar BS3]

3 minutes ago, ballwinningcentrehalf said:

Topics of this ilk always make it pretty easy to spot the 40 year old +, white males of this forum, at least.

I’m a 40 year old white male. 

My brother in law is a 40 year old black Male. I’m sure he wouldn’t want to get interviewed for a job ahead of me, because of the colour of his skin..! 

[EmissionImpossible]

7 minutes ago, ballwinningcentrehalf said:

Topics of this ilk always make it pretty easy to spot the 40 year old +, white males of this forum, at least.

Yeah, not sure about the age generalisation ( being 40 myself) but you sure can tell the people who have no concept of lives outside their own, let alone how people of varying skin colours are prejudiced against.

[Lrrr]

15 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

Think more broadly than Campbell. Terry Connor has also been invited to support Gareth Southgate as well. He certainly does have a history of coaching behind him. 

However you are missing a point. If what is an overwhelmingly white framework of coaching is not addressed how do non white coaches break into it?

You have highlighted how unbalanced it is. The coaches with clear progressions are overwhelmingly white, the shortlisting is overwhelmingly white … And the circle will go on and on unless it is addressed.

Didn't mention Connor because he has the coaching history, whether its just a placement or a job etc its the opportunity to work as part of the England setup. I highlighted Campbell because he lacks the coaching background etc, while BAME initiative is aiming to create the opportunities for coaches it should still take into account what those coaches have done in their careers. Just my opinion but someone like Campbell who turns down working at lower levels because they think better of themselves doesn't deserve the opportunity over someone who has put the years into getting the experience, Campbell has done nothing to demonstrate he is the right man for the position in the first place.

[EmissionImpossible]

4 minutes ago, Bar BS3 said:

I’m a 40 year old white male. 

My brother in law is a 40 year old black Male. I’m sure he wouldn’t want to get interviewed for a job ahead of me, because of the colour of his skin..! 

It’s nothing to do with what he wants in reality, it’s to do with providing more chance for people who aren’t represented accurately in work places for varying reasons.

[Cowshed]

3 minutes ago, Bar BS3 said:

I see, fair enough. I only read the headlines. 

What happens if no BAME people apply..?

Why the need (other than political correctness) to announce that BAME people will be interviewed..?

Surely every applicant who matches the required criteria should be considered for interview and saying that BAME people will specifically get interviewed is degrading to them (not getting interview on merit) and takes the place of an interviewee who may be better, but not of the required skin colour. 

It depends what your criteria is. If its UEFA A and wide experience non white coaches will be in the minority because they are under represented.

Looking at shortlisting non white applicants will not see Guardiola being over looked for a Gareth Crooks. 

 

 

[Judda]

1 hour ago, Red Army 75 said:

I think it’s pathetic. There is more opportunity for everyone regardless of sex or creed . If you’re good enough doesn’t matter who you are . Giving jobs to people because off their skin colour or sex and not to a more qualified person doesn’t sit well with me . 

Let a man not be judged by the colour of his skin but by the content of his character!

[Red Army 75]

13 minutes ago, Bar BS3 said:

I’m a 40 year old white male. 

My brother in law is a 40 year old black Male. I’m sure he wouldn’t want to get interviewed for a job ahead of me, because of the colour of his skin..! 

Me to and I have a bold head. In trouble now 

[ballwinningcentrehalf]

22 minutes ago, Red Army 75 said:

Go on . Please explain you’re post

Of course, and let me start off by saying I'm not saying those in that category are automatically racist - however I see conversations about topics such as this and often it is the 40+ white male crowd that give similar answers.

I'll also take Sol Campbell out of the equation, the issue is bigger than one man. The pretty simple is that BAME individuals are sorely lacking in representation and we need to do more to give them a path way into having opportunities. Society has come a long way, but if anyone truly believes we are now at a stage where these jobs are equally available to BAME applicants, then you are wrong. For years they have been denied opportunities and they continue to be denied opportunities.

It's just telling that rather than focusing on the core reasons for this type of scheme, some would rather jump to hyperbole, or highlight a weird hypothetical such as 'LJ wouldn't get this opportunity because he's WHITE?! THAT"S RACISM!', rather than accepting we need to do much more. 

Often, the first step in schemes like this, or the Rooney Rule, is merely about giving these applicants a chance to get an interview - I think anyone with a brain can accept that in the world of vast majority old, white, male CEO's and business leaders, many BAME candidates will sadly be excluded from even the interview stage for having slightly darker skin, or having a name that's harder to pronounce, or for having a foreign accent.

[Red Army 75]

2 minutes ago, ballwinningcentrehalf said:

Of course, and let me start off by saying I'm not saying those in that category are automatically racist - however I see conversations about topics such as this and often it is the 40+ white male crowd that give similar answers.

I'll also take Sol Campbell out of the equation, the issue is bigger than one man. The pretty simple is that BAME individuals are sorely lacking in representation and we need to do more to give them a path way into having opportunities. Society has come a long way, but if anyone truly believes we are now at a stage where these jobs are equally available to BAME applicants, then you are wrong. For years they have been denied opportunities and they continue be denied opportunities.

It's just telling that rather than focusing on the core reasons for this type of scheme, some would rather jump to hyperbole, or highlight a weird hypothetical such as 'LJ wouldn't get this opportunity because he's WHITE?! THAT"S RACISM!', rather than accepting we need to do much more. 

Often, the first step in schemes like this, or the Rooney Rule, is merely about giving these applicants a chance to get an interview - I think anyone with a brain can accept that in the world of vast majority old, white, male CEO's and business leaders, many BAME candidates will sadly be excluded from even the interview stage for having slightly darker skin, or having a name that's harder to pronounce, or for having a foreign accent.

Thank you for explaining. But I really don’t like the 40 year old white remark . 

[LondonBristolian]

20 minutes ago, Bar BS3 said:

I see, fair enough. I only read the headlines. 

What happens if no BAME people apply..?

Why the need (other than political correctness) to announce that BAME people will be interviewed..?

Surely every applicant who matches the required criteria should be considered for interview and saying that BAME people will specifically get interviewed is degrading to them (not getting interview on merit) and takes the place of an interviewee who may be better, but not of the required skin colour. 

If no BAME people apply then there's no problem and the shortlisting carries on as it does now. Obviously, if no BAME people were applying for jobs at the FA in general the FA might want to find out why.

There are advantages to announcing this. If BAME have been put off applying for jobs with the FA in the past because they perceive that they may be discriminated against then a public announcement means those same people might decide to apply. Worst case scenario, it turns out that other candidates are better on merit and they get the job. Best case scenario, some really good coaches who would not have applied or got interviewed now do so, show what they do in the interview and then go on to get the job and do well and strengthen our pool of coaches.

You are right in your last paragraph. Every applicant who matches the required criteria should be considered for interview and the best candidates should be getting interviewed on merit, not based on the colour of their skin. But if there is a problem that certain candidates are being excluded for reasons other than ability then it might be necessary to have an initiative that prevents that. Many organisations have adopted a similar scheme for disabled applicants for the past few years. I don't see that is degrading or unfair. It's recognising that disabled people are twice as likely to be unemployed than non-disabled people and face barriers to getting jobs and so taking proactive steps to address that. I see this as a similar thing. I'd love for us to get to a point where such schemes weren't needed but I don't think we are there yet. 

[BS4 on Tour...]

1 hour ago, hodge said:

With regard to Nevin having had numerous jobs there's a clear path of progression with him from non league, abroad to Norwich City and onto Brighton as a first team coach before taking the role with England. The point is he's worked to where he is compared to Campbell who refuses to take a job at a lower level thinking himself better than the position rather than taking any job in football to get more experience.

Don’t think that’s quite true...Campbell applied for the Grimsby Town manager’s role earlier this year and he was subsequently interviewed for the job...but he didn’t get it...