Mr Popodopolous Posted October 4, 2018 Report Share Posted October 4, 2018 12 minutes ago, Olé said: I haven't had a chance to read all the threads today owing to short turnaround from travel to sleep to work today (FML) but a couple of observations between meetings on the theme of overreaction: - I agree there is no need for a meltdown, but I'm not seeing the main reason that an overreaction isn't justified: which is that Rotherham played bloody well. Sometimes you just need to call it what it is. They weren't too bad against Stoke and I honestly though they were one of the best sides we've played, in terms of how they setup, how much energy they had, and what they did with the ball. It was everything we're supposed to be, and that says more about THEM. - I don't care that they're relegation favourites, it's immaterial to the style and quality of football they produced. We've done that to teams before in our best run last season when it wasn't expected (and in that 4-4-1-1 formation, for what it's worth), I don't understand why we don't give credit when others do it to us even if it is "Rotherham". We weren't very good, but that should take nothing away from Rotherham who played some really good football - just couldn't finish. - However, at the other extreme, I certainly wouldn't ignore the concerns from yesterday. This was a match in which for 45 minutes our first choice 11 did not compete, the brand of football which was more and more encouraging throughout our winning run, was completely gone, replaced with lack of understanding across the middle (including wingers totally lost), punting long balls forward, and at every change of possession, being static and disinterest in the second ball. - That isn't a good measure of where we have got to from the good progress that was being made a month ago, and it's right and fair to be asking questions about why we appear to have forgotten how to employ the style of play (or indeed any style of play) set out earlier in the season. How do you become identity less overnight? My assumption is that LJ's well drilled football requires confidence and in just a few results we've lost all of ours. Didn't see any leaders either. Out of reactions but tend to agree with this definitely- Sometimes the other side raises it and that plays a key role. Purely on a tactical point, when I saw their 4-4-1-1 shape vs our fairly orthodox 4-4-2, I thought it may not be terrific viewing for us. First half especially, it certainly was not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sturny Posted October 4, 2018 Report Share Posted October 4, 2018 15 minutes ago, Prinny said: There are different levels of debate about different timeframes and to put them all together is your loss of perspective. Absolutely the club is generally fine and moving in generally the right direction under generally decent leadership. Perspective. Absolutely that was a god awful first 60 minutes where our players were garbage and the manager made selection and or tactical errors against a team we spend more than. Perspective. "Wage bill, money spent, attendances, players are all average/ mid table for the championship... yet everyone expects so much more" By your own expectation setting you SHOULD be upset by last night. Consider where we stack up vs Rotherham in those categories. If you can't see the frame as well as the full motion picture it is you who have lost the nuance of perspective. Most people are able to get upset about a moment AND understand the bigger picture. If you are numb to the moments of football, the bad passes, wrong decisions, the scoring of a last minute winner... I'm not sure why you'd watch. Do you stare at the league table vs ranking of finances invested to see how we're doing while the game is going on? More people need to understand this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pillred Posted October 4, 2018 Report Share Posted October 4, 2018 3 hours ago, Major Isewater said: Not too shabby for a man of my age. Thank you . as my nan used to say, self praise is no recommendation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BS4 on Tour... Posted October 4, 2018 Report Share Posted October 4, 2018 3 hours ago, ForeverRes said: Wage bill, money spent, attendances, players are all average/ mid table for the championship... yet everyone expects so much more. Why? Because we beat a 2nd string Man United team in the tinpot cup? Grow up Not only is this statement above untrue, you were the poster who panicked before the United Cup tie last Christmas posting on here: “Without Leko and Woodrow we will look so frail against Man Utd...” and you went on to describe Woodrow as “a very gifted player with lots of technical ability” - with opinions like that you now think you can start a thread to instruct everyone on here who is not too happy at recent performances to ‘have a look at yourselves’ .....and you tell everyone to ‘grow up’ - oh dear.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobBobSuperBob Posted October 4, 2018 Report Share Posted October 4, 2018 What I find amusing is the current reason / excuse ‘We sold £28 million worth of talent ....what can you expect That £28 million worth of talent would be Aden Flint....... , according to some , many, ‘can’t defend’ ‘no pace’ ‘kick and head it merchant’ etc etc etc Joe Bryan ‘Vastly overrated’ ‘awful defender’ ‘can’t cross / shoot / tackle’ etc Bobby Reid ‘One season’ ‘His goals are replaceable’ etc etc Why would we even miss any of them , they were all easily replaceable , as many have claimed on here..... Which is right ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy082005 Posted October 4, 2018 Report Share Posted October 4, 2018 4 hours ago, ForeverRes said: Why after every loss do we go into an utterly embarrassing meltdown. We've played very poorly in 2 away games this year, granted. But in the other 9 we've been decent for large parts, and very good at times too. We lost £24 million worth of quality in the summer and here we are 1 point off the play offs. Im seeing things like Famara is our worst signing ever... a bloke who scored 13 goals last year after having 3 and a half months out injured! A lot of our fan base need to get a grip. There is absolutely no sense of perspective. When you consider everything about the club, what gives us the right to be anywhere near the play offs. Wage bill, money spent, attendances, players are all average/ mid table for the championship... yet everyone expects so much more. Why? Because we beat a 2nd string Man United team in the tinpot cup? Grow up Well said... I just don't get some people. They are never happy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
REDOXO Posted October 4, 2018 Report Share Posted October 4, 2018 4 hours ago, ForeverRes said: Why after every loss do we go into an utterly embarrassing meltdown. We've played very poorly in 2 away games this year, granted. But in the other 9 we've been decent for large parts, and very good at times too. We lost £24 million worth of quality in the summer and here we are 1 point off the play offs. Im seeing things like Famara is our worst signing ever... a bloke who scored 13 goals last year after having 3 and a half months out injured! A lot of our fan base need to get a grip. There is absolutely no sense of perspective. When you consider everything about the club, what gives us the right to be anywhere near the play offs. Wage bill, money spent, attendances, players are all average/ mid table for the championship... yet everyone expects so much more. Why? Because we beat a 2nd string Man United team in the tinpot cup? Grow up Did we lose yesterday? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LondonBCFC Posted October 4, 2018 Report Share Posted October 4, 2018 4 hours ago, ForeverRes said: Why after every loss do we go into an utterly embarrassing meltdown. We've played very poorly in 2 away games this year, granted. But in the other 9 we've been decent for large parts, and very good at times too. We lost £24 million worth of quality in the summer and here we are 1 point off the play offs. Im seeing things like Famara is our worst signing ever... a bloke who scored 13 goals last year after having 3 and a half months out injured! A lot of our fan base need to get a grip. There is absolutely no sense of perspective. When you consider everything about the club, what gives us the right to be anywhere near the play offs. Wage bill, money spent, attendances, players are all average/ mid table for the championship... yet everyone expects so much more. Why? Because we beat a 2nd string Man United team in the tinpot cup? Grow up Surely everyone is entitled to their opinion? Most fans have unrealistic expectations and are hopeful about achieving them. If they can't vent them here on an internet fans forum where on earth can they!?! Re right to the play offs, any club can do it with decent momentum and a good season - look at Cardiff... Not saying people aren't overreacting but let them if they want to Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivorguy Posted October 4, 2018 Report Share Posted October 4, 2018 2 hours ago, wood_red said: I think half the issue to most fans is we have played some very decent stuff at times this season so know we are capable, even after losing £24 million worth of players. Swansea away was superb and assured, Blackburn comeback, Sheff U done a job on them, West Brom in parts was brilliant. But then we get the Bolton, QPR half, Wigan, Boro, Rotherham. Overall I think many would be happy where we are league position wise, but also want to see entertaining football and consistency. Granted it won't happen every game, but same games are poles apart from the last game played which is baffling, and whether it is the players or LJs fault I don't know. Well I should have thought it was pretty obviously LJ's fault as this is not the first time it has happened, nor are we the first club, coached by LJ, to experience it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AppyDAZE Posted October 4, 2018 Report Share Posted October 4, 2018 I know, let's all just not give a s*** about whether the team turns up for a particular game or not. It's hardly OUR business. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sturny Posted October 4, 2018 Report Share Posted October 4, 2018 1 hour ago, BS4 on Tour... said: Not only is this statement above untrue, you were the poster who panicked before the United Cup tie last Christmas posting on here: “Without Leko and Woodrow we will look so frail against Man Utd...” and you went on to describe Woodrow as “a very gifted player with lots of technical ability” - with opinions like that you now think you can start a thread to instruct everyone on here who is not too happy at recent performances to ‘have a look at yourselves’ .....and you tell everyone to ‘grow up’ - oh dear.... Do you do background checks like that on most people do you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestMidsRed Posted October 4, 2018 Report Share Posted October 4, 2018 I just think the club, all fans especially those travelling to and from these long distance mid week matches deserve at least the best out of the team we have currently. They're not exactly getting paid in monkey nuts after all. Is LJ getting the best out of our players game in and game out? Rotherham didn't look particularly inspiring, would you have paid to travel, possibly overnight stay not just the match ticket if you knew you were going to witness a goalless draw against Rotherham on a Wednesday night? If we play to our best ability then that's fine, if we lose or draw then we did the best we could... If not then no, that's not fine with me. Every fan has a right to moan, it wouldn't be a forum otherwise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drew Peacock Posted October 4, 2018 Report Share Posted October 4, 2018 7 hours ago, ForeverRes said: Why after every loss do we go into an utterly embarrassing meltdown. We've played very poorly in 2 away games this year, granted. But in the other 9 we've been decent for large parts, and very good at times too. We lost £24 million worth of quality in the summer and here we are 1 point off the play offs. Im seeing things like Famara is our worst signing ever... a bloke who scored 13 goals last year after having 3 and a half months out injured! A lot of our fan base need to get a grip. There is absolutely no sense of perspective. When you consider everything about the club, what gives us the right to be anywhere near the play offs. Wage bill, money spent, attendances, players are all average/ mid table for the championship... yet everyone expects so much more. Why? Because we beat a 2nd string Man United team in the tinpot cup? Grow up Like the utterly embarrassing meltdown after we lost to WBA? Think it's you who needs to get a grip. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BCFC Grim Posted October 4, 2018 Report Share Posted October 4, 2018 7 hours ago, ForeverRes said: Why after every loss do we go into an utterly embarrassing meltdown. We've played very poorly in 2 away games this year, granted. But in the other 9 we've been decent for large parts, and very good at times too. We lost £24 million worth of quality in the summer and here we are 1 point off the play offs. Im seeing things like Famara is our worst signing ever... a bloke who scored 13 goals last year after having 3 and a half months out injured! A lot of our fan base need to get a grip. There is absolutely no sense of perspective. When you consider everything about the club, what gives us the right to be anywhere near the play offs. Wage bill, money spent, attendances, players are all average/ mid table for the championship... yet everyone expects so much more. Why? Because we beat a 2nd string Man United team in the tinpot cup? Grow up We didn't lose? Unfortunately the performance was all to similar under the current regime. Look at Wigan? Look at the numerous games last season. At times we look clueless? I don't see a plan? What's our football philosophy? Even against Villa I thought we were poor. We never looked like scoring? Go and have a look at how many they've conceded this season. We've no leader, one of Johnsons excuses last season? Why hasn't he sorted it? Where's the creative midfielder we've been crying out for years? For the record at WBA I thought we were fantastic on the ball. Just a flash in a pan I guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivorguy Posted October 4, 2018 Report Share Posted October 4, 2018 4 hours ago, BobBobSuperBob said: What I find amusing is the current reason / excuse ‘We sold £28 million worth of talent ....what can you expect That £28 million worth of talent would be Aden Flint....... , according to some , many, ‘can’t defend’ ‘no pace’ ‘kick and head it merchant’ etc etc etc Joe Bryan ‘Vastly overrated’ ‘awful defender’ ‘can’t cross / shoot / tackle’ etc Bobby Reid ‘One season’ ‘His goals are replaceable’ etc etc Why would we even miss any of them , they were all easily replaceable , as many have claimed on here..... Which is right ? But they were part of the team that went on the worst run in our history That takes us back to the Head Coach - again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RumRed Posted October 4, 2018 Report Share Posted October 4, 2018 @ForeverResit’s ambition not expectation. Without ambition why bother? And I can’t believe anyone would say a cup win against Man U was the reason we should have gone up. Maybe our league position at the time had something more to do with it, which we then pissed away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SStandUp Posted October 4, 2018 Author Report Share Posted October 4, 2018 6 hours ago, exAtyeoMax said: Is it really an embarrassing meltdown? I haven't seen that, just reasoned debate about our performance, tactics and player selection. I think that appears to be the general concern (not where we are in the table). But everyone's questioning the manager based off the Rotherham and Wigan games. Rather than the season as a whole Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RumRed Posted October 4, 2018 Report Share Posted October 4, 2018 2 minutes ago, ForeverRes said: But everyone's questioning the manager based off the Rotherham and Wigan games. Rather than the season as a whole More than 1 season Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exAtyeoMax Posted October 4, 2018 Report Share Posted October 4, 2018 1 minute ago, ForeverRes said: But everyone's questioning the manager based off the Rotherham and Wigan games. Rather than the season as a whole They are questioning him after three years…and even when they question this season it is about the performances, tactics and selections. I don't see a problem with that. People are offering and debating ideas, not asking for his head. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SStandUp Posted October 4, 2018 Author Report Share Posted October 4, 2018 5 hours ago, General Zod said: I feel LJ, his lack of tactical awareness and more importantly no sign that he’s learning and growing into the role of Head Coach at a reasonably big championship club is holding us back. We have a team that if judged by what we see week in week out is underperforming more often than not. I was hoping that by now I would be seeing signs of improvement from Lee and his staff. We’ve had 3 months of quality and a few years of rubbish and inconsistency under his watch. Can anyone be happy with the standard of football we are seeing most weeks. LJ wants the team to play in a certain way, energy, high press etc. Is he showing any sign that he can get players, the majority which he’s purchased, to buy into this and play the way he wants. If he can’t, has he got the skills to coach them or the know how and balls to change this system and admit it’s not working? We sold our 3 best players... we're a selling club. You're simply not going to see a linear progression. Put Kodjia, Reid, Bryan and flint back in that team. I'm sure we'd be much better! You can't just expect progression after progression after progression, when you actually consider everything! Since Johnson walked through the door, are you denying that we haven't progressed? We certainly have, and we've sold the majority of our best players whilst doing so Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SStandUp Posted October 4, 2018 Author Report Share Posted October 4, 2018 5 minutes ago, RumRed said: More than 1 season We've only but progressed under Johnson. When you look at our squad, do you really think, wow that should be a top 6 side. It screams average. The reason peoples expectations are a high is because of the way Johnson got us playing last year. We simply couldn't sustain it, on top of that we sold our best players in the summer. Why do you expect to be getting better? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RumRed Posted October 4, 2018 Report Share Posted October 4, 2018 6 minutes ago, ForeverRes said: We sold our 3 best players... we're a selling club. You're simply not going to see a linear progression. Put Kodjia, Reid, Bryan and flint back in that team. I'm sure we'd be much better! You can't just expect progression after progression after progression, when you actually consider everything! Since Johnson walked through the door, are you denying that we haven't progressed? We certainly have, and we've sold the majority of our best players whilst doing so But those players all failed when it came to the sharp end of things, I really don’t understand your argument? 3 were involved in our worst losing streak in history, just because we sold them for a lot of money doesn’t make them world beaters. Where are they in the league now? Fulham 5 points Cardiff 2 points Villa 1 point below us not exactly as if we sold Messi is it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SStandUp Posted October 4, 2018 Author Report Share Posted October 4, 2018 4 hours ago, Prinny said: There are different levels of debate about different timeframes and to put them all together is your loss of perspective. Absolutely the club is generally fine and moving in generally the right direction under generally decent leadership. Perspective. Absolutely that was a god awful first 60 minutes where our players were garbage and the manager made selection and or tactical errors against a team we spend more than. Perspective. "Wage bill, money spent, attendances, players are all average/ mid table for the championship... yet everyone expects so much more" By your own expectation setting you SHOULD be upset by last night. Consider where we stack up vs Rotherham in those categories. If you can't see the frame as well as the full motion picture it is you who have lost the nuance of perspective. Most people are able to get upset about a moment AND understand the bigger picture. If you are numb to the moments of football, the bad passes, wrong decisions, the scoring of a last minute winner... I'm not sure why you'd watch. Do you stare at the league table vs ranking of finances invested to see how we're doing while the game is going on? Likewise we shouldn't be getting a draw against Villa? You're arguing a different argument. I'm just stating when you consider everything, we aren't going too badly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted October 4, 2018 Report Share Posted October 4, 2018 14 minutes ago, RumRed said: @ForeverResit’s ambition not expectation. Without ambition why bother? And I can’t believe anyone would say a cup win against Man U was the reason we should have gone up. Maybe our league position at the time had something more to do with it, which we then pissed away. Dunno about gone up as in top 2, but most definitely should have made playoffs- which who knows we could have won. Regardless of whether we'd have won them, we should have made them though IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exAtyeoMax Posted October 4, 2018 Report Share Posted October 4, 2018 5 minutes ago, ForeverRes said: We sold our 3 best players... we're a selling club. You're simply not going to see a linear progression. Put Kodjia, Reid, Bryan and flint back in that team. I'm sure we'd be much better! You can't just expect progression after progression after progression, when you actually consider everything! Since Johnson walked through the door, are you denying that we haven't progressed? We certainly have, and we've sold the majority of our best players whilst doing so SL is… I'm not expecting promotion just more consistency in our performances, we have decent players who have demonstrated that they are capable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SStandUp Posted October 4, 2018 Author Report Share Posted October 4, 2018 3 minutes ago, RumRed said: But those players all failed when it came to the sharp end of things, I really don’t understand your argument? 3 were involved in our worst losing streak in history, just because we sold them for a lot of money doesn’t make them world beaters. Where are they in the league now? You don't understand my argument that by selling your proclaimed best players, you're going to struggle to progres? What are you struggling to understand? Take Hazard, Alonso, Kante (for example) away from Chelsea, and not replace them, would you expect Chelsea to progress and get better? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RumRed Posted October 4, 2018 Report Share Posted October 4, 2018 1 minute ago, Mr Popodopolous said: Dunno about gone up as in top 2, but most definitely should have made playoffs- which who knows we could have won. Regardless of whether we'd have won them, we should have made them though IMO. Let’s face it we probably knew we were over performing at Xmas but I was pretty convinced I’d be booking tickets to the playoffs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SStandUp Posted October 4, 2018 Author Report Share Posted October 4, 2018 3 minutes ago, exAtyeoMax said: SL is… I'm not expecting promotion just more consistency in our performances, we have decent players who have demonstrated that they are capable. I agree with consistency? But are they a frustrating group to manage? One minute they look brilliant and confident on the ball, the next they don't! I think Johnson has eluded to that in a not so blunt way several times! Some will say that lies at the managers door, but individual inconsistency lies at the players feet for me! For example pack, last 3 games has been average, Johnson wouldn't of all of sudden told him to be doing anything differently. His performances individually have dropped off and that's hard for a manager to savour Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RumRed Posted October 4, 2018 Report Share Posted October 4, 2018 1 minute ago, ForeverRes said: You don't understand my argument that by selling your proclaimed best players, you're going to struggle to progres? What are you struggling to understand? Take Hazard, Alonso, Kante (for example) away from Chelsea, and not replace them, would you expect Chelsea to progress and get better? No I don’t in honesty. That’s what happens but if we’d managed the playoffs who would have said they’d have left? This is not a one season thing is it? And using top end premiership players as a comparison against a one season wonder, a petulant mistake ridden show pony, and a no nonsense big bloke really doesn’t work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted October 4, 2018 Report Share Posted October 4, 2018 6 minutes ago, RumRed said: Let’s face it we probably knew we were over performing at Xmas but I was pretty convinced I’d be booking tickets to the playoffs. Tend to agree yeah- I took a look at the League position ahead of the Wolves game on League tables and then the position at 1-0 v Wolves- never should have fallen as we did. We may have been overperforming, but at same time others were underperforming and they were always likely to come strong- I'm thinking of Fulham's 23 game unbeaten run! Villa also put some stuff together, but yeah from where we were at Christmas playoffs looked highly likely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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