Can We Just Be Honest

[ChippenhamRed]

30 minutes ago, CHIPLEY RED said:

I just quoted the statistics. 

I would rather have Lee Johnson than Mick McCarthy or someone like Neil Warnock who is another who is regularly mentioned on here. But that's just my opinion.

And by the way if Mick did such a good job at Ipswich, which was his last job, how come he was hounded out by the fans and has not been snapped up by another club.

 

Perhaps they failed to appreciate how well he was doing given the resources at his disposal. Ipswich’s form so far this season would appear to back this up.

[CHIPLEY RED]

3 minutes ago, ChippenhamRed said:

Perhaps they failed to appreciate how well he was doing given the resources at his disposal. Ipswich’s form so far this season would appear to back this up.

Maybe and maybe we fail to appreciate Lee. We have a squad valued 14th in the championship which is about where we are.

We could do with strengthening at the back, although injuries haven't helped, I think our central mid field is light weight without either an enforcer or flair player and we can't put the ball in the back of the net. It may be Lee's fault he didn't strengthen or spend the transfer money or it may have been the board that didn't give him the money. I don't know which but whatever manager we had now I don't think the squad good enough to challenge at the top of this league.

[BobBobSuperBob]

4 minutes ago, CHIPLEY RED said:

Maybe and maybe we fail to appreciate Lee. We have a squad valued 14th in the championship which is about where we are.

We could do with strengthening at the back, although injuries haven't helped, I think our central mid field is light weight without either an enforcer or flair player and we can't put the ball in the back of the net. It may be Lee's fault he didn't strengthen or spend the transfer money or it may have been the board that didn't give him the money. I don't know which but whatever manager we had now I don't think the squad good enough to challenge at the top of this league.

So , summarising your assessment

We are a bit light at the back

lightweight in central midfield , and lack an enforcer or flair player

And looking short up front / for goals

 

All going swimmingly then after 3 years , 50 plus signings, £40 million.....

 

Yep I can see why you say we should appreciate him...

[BS4 on Tour...]

1 hour ago, CHIPLEY RED said:

I just quoted the statistics. 

I would rather have Lee Johnson than Mick McCarthy or someone like Neil Warnock who is another who is regularly mentioned on here. But that's just my opinion.

And by the way if Mick did such a good job at Ipswich, which was his last job, how come he was hounded out by the fans and has not been snapped up by another club.

 

Mick did an amazing job at Ipswich - on a very very tight budget - his career achievements are there to see - he’s won the championship twice - yep, he’s taken two teams up to the premier league as champions of this division - in six seasons with Wolves his lowest finish was 7th in the championship, and that was despite being faced with incredibly challenging financial constraints when he arrived there - he took his country to a World Cup finals tournament etc etc etc - how you can think LJ is even in the same bracket is beyond belief...

[Mr Popodopolous]

McCarthy is an excellent manager in many respects, but I fear he maybe a bit tactically limited?

Also he lost Waghorn, McGoldrick and Garner this summer in the striking dept and Webster at the back- it's possible Ipswich might have struggled for goals even had he stayed. That said they'd be lower midtable probably IMO, but he wouldn't have been immune to the effect of0 losing such players.

[Swede]

The problem is he will never live down the nepotism on here.

I actually think its refreshing that he has the security and I think he's doing a brilliant job with the resources at his disposal.

He has had his three best players sold. One of which HE turned into a £10M sale.

We have a tiered coaching structure in place and ever improving facilities.

We are moving in the right direction (unfortunately not quickly enough for some) but then you can't please everyone.

I find him bright and engaging and very respectful of the opposition. With the media exposure last year I thought he helped portray Bristol City in a positive manner.

Yes, he's not perfect but then again none of us are.

 

 

[BobBobSuperBob]

31 minutes ago, Swede said:

The problem is he will never live down the nepotism on here.

I actually think its refreshing that he has the security and I think he's doing a brilliant job with the resources at his disposal.

He has had his three best players sold. One of which HE turned into a £10M sale.

We have a tiered coaching structure in place and ever improving facilities.

We are moving in the right direction (unfortunately not quickly enough for some) but then you can't please everyone.

I find him bright and engaging and very respectful of the opposition. With the media exposure last year I thought he helped portray Bristol City in a positive manner.

Yes, he's not perfect but then again none of us are.

 

 

A ‘brilliant’ job ?

Really ?

 

 

wow  

wow

 

[gornagain]

The mods can help here. They merge other topics.

[BS4 on Tour...]

2 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

McCarthy is an excellent manager in many respects, but I fear he maybe a bit tactically limited?

Also he lost Waghorn, McGoldrick and Garner this summer in the striking dept and Webster at the back- it's possible Ipswich might have struggled for goals even had he stayed. That said they'd be lower midtable probably IMO, but he wouldn't have been immune to the effect of0 losing such players.

When he joined Wolves they had to sell most of their established first teamers due to financial constraints after the Hoddle reign...he got them into the play offs in his first season, finished 7th in his second season and took them up to the PL as champions in his third season....he’s well used to operating under challenging conditions - including during his six year stint at Portman Road, he would have kept them comfortably in this division if he’d stayed with Ipswich....

[Mr Popodopolous]

15 minutes ago, BS4 on Tour... said:

When he joined Wolves they had to sell most of their established first teamers due to financial constraints after the Hoddle reign...he got them into the play offs in his first season, finished 7th in his second season and took them up to the PL as champions in his third season....he’s well used to operating under challenging conditions - including during his six year stint at Portman Road, he would have kept them comfortably in this division if he’d stayed with Ipswich....

I'm not disputing his record, but I'm suggesting he's perhaps tactically limited.

Do you know how many goals- let alone assists- Waghorn, Garner and McGoldrick provided in the League last year?

A quick search suggests:

• McGoldrick- 6 goals and 4 assists.
• Garner- 10 goals and 2 assists.
• Waghorn- 16 goals and 11 assists.

Now some of them may have set up each other so may not be countable but I'd suggest most managers would struggle off the back of that in one summer. 32 goals and 17 assists in the League last year- sold/lost in the summer! (They scored 57 goals last season). Huge task.

He may not (probably wouldn't )have taken them down but filling that hole at a club who spend little, is a huge ask for anyone.

[Ashtonwurzel]

On 07/10/2018 at 17:29, Redrascal2 said:

Better things. Surely there is no one out there as gullable and as poor a judge of a Manager as Lansdown.

LJ is very highly thought of in the professional game with his methods held up as an example to others. He will most probably manage in the Premiership in the future.

 

[Northern Red]

10 minutes ago, Ashtonwurzel said:

LJ is very highly thought of in the professional game with his methods held up as an example to others. He will most probably manage in the Premiership in the future.

 

Hi Lee.

[glen humphries]

4 hours ago, CHIPLEY RED said:

Maybe and maybe we fail to appreciate Lee. We have a squad valued 14th in the championship which is about where we are.

We could do with strengthening at the back, although injuries haven't helped, I think our central mid field is light weight without either an enforcer or flair player and we can't put the ball in the back of the net. It may be Lee's fault he didn't strengthen or spend the transfer money or it may have been the board that didn't give him the money. I don't know which but whatever manager we had now I don't think the squad good enough to challenge at the top of this league.

You’ve had a mare , you’re saying we’re light all over the pitch but we’re failing to appreciate lj

[glen humphries]

23 minutes ago, Ashtonwurzel said:

LJ is very highly thought of in the professional game with his methods held up as an example to others. He will most probably manage in the Premiership in the future.

 

You on a wind up??

[Swede]

4 hours ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

A ‘brilliant’ job ?

Really ?

 

 

wow  

wow

 

Yes, really.

[Davefevs]

5 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

McCarthy is an excellent manager in many respects, but I fear he maybe a bit tactically limited?

I don’t think you need to be tactically “expansive" to do well in this division.  You can do very well with good(ish) players who all know what is expected of them, and prepared to work hard in combo with each other.

Also he lost Waghorn, McGoldrick and Garner this summer in the striking dept and Webster at the back- it's possible Ipswich might have struggled for goals even had he stayed. That said they'd be lower midtable probably IMO, but he wouldn't have been immune to the effect of0 losing such players.

I think in some respects LJ tried to be too clever, he’s even said that himself, that he’s complicated it too much.  I would rather see him stick by his principled 442 if that is his belief....but in doing so, play the players that fit it.  Recruit the players that fit it.  Let them know they fit it, and that’s why they’ve been picked.

On a tangent, lot of talk on TalkSport this evening about Winks and his selection in England squad.  Personally I don’t get the fuss, looks very average for Spurs, let alone England....but you’ve got to hope that Southgate sees him performing a defined role and he fits it.

For all the stick Marley has got, I can see why LJ signed him, and I actually think that (in the main), when he’s played in front of Hunt, Hunt looks better.  Marley knows his strengths and weaknesses and sometimes the balance of a physical player is needed in what most of us see as a team without huge strength / backbone.

 

Also, good post earlier @Alessandro 

[Mr Popodopolous]

32 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I think in some respects LJ tried to be too clever, he’s even said that himself, that he’s complicated it too much.  I would rather see him stick by his principled 442 if that is his belief....but in doing so, play the players that fit it.  Recruit the players that fit it.  Let them know they fit it, and that’s why they’ve been picked.

On a tangent, lot of talk on TalkSport this evening about Winks and his selection in England squad.  Personally I don’t get the fuss, looks very average for Spurs, let alone England....but you’ve got to hope that Southgate sees him performing a defined role and he fits it.

For all the stick Marley has got, I can see why LJ signed him, and I actually think that (in the main), when he’s played in front of Hunt, Hunt looks better.  Marley knows his strengths and weaknesses and sometimes the balance of a physical player is needed in what most of us see as a team without huge strength / backbone.

 

Also, good post earlier @Alessandro 

See, a few years ago I might have agreed in full. Just think the Championship has evolved- and is still evolving- that increasingly a less basic template is necessary. I concur it's not the be all and end all.

However, when I look at sides like Wolves and from mid December onwards, Fulham last season I see good football well excellent football in fact, with a strong emphasis on the midfield or the centre being fairly packed. Sheffield United and their various switching between 3-5-2, 3-5-1-1 last year and this season 3-4-1-2 isn't such a basic shape IMO. Brentford and their excellent football, Leeds under Bielsa and even Norwich can be pretty good to watch- even though their football last year was labelled as slow. None really play 4-4-2. Mty personal view is that 4-4-2 can or will serve sides well in this League up to a point...but won't get sides over the line in terms of promotion. Essentially see a 2 in CM v a lot of sides at this level as swimming against the tide. Derby with Lampard, Forest with Karanka- probably more besides.

Agree on Watkins and why he was signed- wouldn't necessarily have him as a starter, but the work rate, cover- bit of physicality- all something that can help in certain games.

[Davefevs]

6 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

See, a few years ago I might have agreed in full. Just think the Championship has evolved- and is still evolving- that increasingly a less basic template is necessary. I concur it's not the be all and end all.

However, when I look at sides like Wolves and from mid December onwards, Fulham last season I see good football well excellent football in fact, with a strong emphasis on the midfield or the centre being fairly packed. Sheffield United and their various switching between 3-5-2, 3-5-1-1 last year and this season 3-4-1-2 isn't such a basic shape IMO. Brentford and their excellent football, Leeds under Bielsa and even Norwich can be pretty good to watch- even though their football last year was labelled as slow. None really play 4-4-2. Mty personal view is that 4-4-2 can or will serve sides well in this League up to a point...but won't get sides over the line in terms of promotion. Essentially see a 2 in CM v a lot of sides at this level ad swimming against the tide.

Agree on Watkins and why he was signed- wouldn't necessarily have him as a starter, but the work rate, cover- bit of physicality- all something that can help in certain games.

Fair response Mr P.  Sheffield United’s switching formation is a good observation but it was done within the confines of a small(ish) group of players in the back-nine....the forwards were switched a bit, but the rest of the side didn’t change much in personnel.

I agree and disagree with the midfield 2.  It can leave us exposed, but it should also mean our other players should be free to expose the opposition.  Why don’t we see that happening?

Or why doesn’t one of the wide players tuck in to create the extra body?  Why don’t we see that happening?

Every formation has strengths and weaknesses, and different strengths and weaknesses depending on the opposite formation.  It’s still 11v11 out there.

Leadership and Football-intelligence play a big part in overcoming the deficiencies of your system.  I sense we lack some of both.

Andi Weimann has both.  Just one example from Rotherham away.  Ball kicked out by us for an injury.  Weimann on left wing, about to throw it back, but is gesturing to Eliasson to take it.  Eliasson in his naivety is saying “nah, you take it Andi, you’re closest, we are only giving it back to their keeper” or words to that effect.  Weimann then explains why.  Gives the ball to Eliasson, asks him to wait until he sprints 30 yards into the centre to split their CBs....so the RU keeper can’t start a quick attack from receiving the ball.  Very simple, but I don’t see enough of that.

[Redrascal2]

On 07/10/2018 at 17:33, Ivorguy said:

Unless of course SL isn't serious about wanting promotion in which case LJ is a perfect match

That is a frightening thought.

[Mr Popodopolous]

10 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Fair response Mr P.  Sheffield United’s switching formation is a good observation but it was done within the confines of a small(ish) group of players in the back-nine....the forwards were switched a bit, but the rest of the side didn’t change much in personnel.

I agree and disagree with the midfield 2.  It can leave us exposed, but it should also mean our other players should be free to expose the opposition.  Why don’t we see that happening?

Or why doesn’t one of the wide players tuck in to create the extra body?  Why don’t we see that happening?

Every formation has strengths and weaknesses, and different strengths and weaknesses depending on the opposite formation.  It’s still 11v11 out there.

Leadership and Football-intelligence play a big part in overcoming the deficiencies of your system.  I sense we lack some of both.

Andi Weimann has both.  Just one example from Rotherham away.  Ball kicked out by us for an injury.  Weimann on left wing, about to throw it back, but is gesturing to Eliasson to take it.  Eliasson in his naivety is saying “nah, you take it Andi, you’re closest, we are only giving it back to their keeper” or words to that effect.  Weimann then explains why.  Gives the ball to Eliasson, asks him to wait until he sprints 30 yards into the centre to split their CBs....so the RU keeper can’t start a quick attack from receiving the ball.  Very simple, but I don’t see enough of that.

Agree with various points Dave.

Wide players tucking in is true enough- think some are better at it than others, more compatible to it than others. Think when we had Brownhill wide right- same can go for full backs, thinking Wright and Magnússon were at RB and LB respectively, had the ability to go inside if needs be I thought. Hunt? Not so much. Of our current true wingers, I'd suggest O'Dowda would be the most comfortable with it. Watkins and in various ways Eliasson, not so much. Wonder if Brownhill and O'Dowda not so much as wingers but as wide midfielders but still in the 4-4-2 might be worth considering. They are also quite good workrate wise and defensively. Brownhill can definitely move inside, O'Dowda maybe.

Agreed- leadership and football intelligence is not on the whole one of our strongest points. Good example you post there about Weimann and Eliasson- the former is an experienced pro who can and should be passing these things on- Eliasson not so much. Feeds into game management I feel- or lack of as the case maybe.

[Spike]

My issue with getting rid of LJ is who comes in to replace him? Let's be fair, we've been here before, where we have a manager who has a lot of ups and downs and generally balances out somewhere in the middle. In those circumstances we've ended up sacking them only for a new manager to come in and make things worse. 

It's all good saying we want better, but realistically who are we going to target and  who is going to come to the club with an enthusiastic outlook? 

It's been made clear that we are a club with a budget, we're not a club who averages the biggest attendances, we've not got any real stand out players in comparison to other clubs and about our biggest selling point is that we have a modern stadium. As a manager why would any big name pick us when there are clubs like Villa, Stoke, Hull even Swansea who would be a far easier job to take on when you look at risk /reward. 

It's easy when you love your club to think "I'd love to manage this club, why wouldn't other managers?!" but the harsh truth is that we're not that big. We're a club with potential but our financial ability to offer wages to draw in the big players is not there, so any manager who comes in has to accept he may have to sell some of our best to bring in even his third or fourth choice targets. We're a selling club, essentially the Southampton of the Championship, it sucks but that's where we are and that's not an easy sell to put towards a manager with a good resume. 

[LondonBristolian]

As ever, I've mixed views on this. Here is broadly where I am:

 

Is LJ doing a great job? No.

Is LJ doing a terrible job? No.

Is LJ doing a good job? Depends on the week.

Are there better managers than LJ in the division? Definitely.

Are there better managers for Bristol City in the division? Possibly.

Are there worse managers for Bristol City in the division? Certainly.

Could we have done better in recent seasons without the massive dip in form? Yes.

Can I remember a manager doing a better job for Bristol City in the second tier consistently over time (since 1990)? No.

 

All in all, I think the likelihood is we are more likely to replace LJ with a worse manager than we are a better one. That isn't just because I think the club has made poor management decisions - though of course they have at times - but because you never know how good a fit a manager is going to be at a club until you employ them. Nigel Pearson at Derby made perfect sense and was a disaster. Ronald Koeman at Everton seemed a good idea and turned out to be a bad one. Bruce had a good track record but could not get Villa up. Meanwhile I doubt Burnley fans were enthused by Dyche, or Leicester by Ranieri. It's easy to praise or criticise managerial appointments in hindsight but nobody knows. Pulis has a great track record and was a dreadful manager for us. I'd have backed SOD to do well based on his record at Doncaster. Meanwhile many of us were underwhelmed by Cotterill and had the best season in recent memory. And then of course there is Steve Coppell.

We could replace LJ and get promoted. We could much more easily replace him and get relegated. Ipswich fans were desperate to get rid of McCarthy and are now 23rd, Hull fans were probably pleased with Adkins are now 24th. You'd have to say Alex Neill and Neil Harris did better jobs than LJ last season but both teams are struggling now.

For me, it is about what we want and whether we stick or we twist. A few years ago, I think we would have definitely twisted. For now, I think - and my opinion would of course change if were near the relegation zone - we are finally - and quite belatedly - building up the squad and club infrastructure so we can become an established Championship team. As someone who has spent more time supporting the club in League One than the Championship, I think that is a good thing. I'd love us to compete at the top end some time soon but I've been a City fan long enough to know that there are two ways out of this division and we tend to make use of one much more than the other. If LJ continues to establish us in the top half of the Championship for a couple more years then it will not be the most exciting thing that has ever happened - and there will always be the question of if we could have done better - but it won't be the worst thing to ever happen either.