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longyears

Can We Just Be Honest

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35 minutes ago, Honiton Tony said:

It's a forum.....that's what we do

Does it need a new thread every time someone thinks they’re having an original thought when they are basically repeating the same thing that’s been done to death over the last 2 years?

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13 minutes ago, Murraysrightplum said:

Does it need a new thread every time someone thinks they’re having an original thought when they are basically repeating the same thing that’s been done to death over the last 2 years?

Or can we just have two separate threads with LJ in/out....its getting silly now. 

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1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

That’s not wage-bill....that’s market value, and the weakest part of that website because it’s not factual, but based on a formula (and some guesswork).

Our wage bill must’ve increased significantly in 17/18 to account for the biggest loss we’ve made....see post re Gavin Marshall, Bristol Sport CFO.  We were bottom 8 in 16/17...I reckon we’ll be more mid-table, which if you exclude 6,7,8 on parachute payments means we are competing with the wages of bigger clubs than us (depending on his you judge big!!).

 

Agreed Dave - and I was just waiting for someone to make that point.

However allowing for the guesswork of Transfermarkt on values, I think it gives us a very rough estimation of where we are with wage bills. Like you say, probably mid-table. Probably roughly where our current league position is ironically!

Remember this was all in response to a poster claiming LJ had "huge resources".  Well, yes, compared to L1 Bristol City of yesteryear, but not so, compared to the numerous big fish in the Championship currently.

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36 minutes ago, Red-Robbo said:

Agreed Dave - and I was just waiting for someone to make that point.

However allowing for the guesswork of Transfermarkt on values, I think it gives us a very rough estimation of where we are with wage bills. Like you say, probably mid-table. Probably roughly where our current league position is ironically!

Remember this was all in response to a poster claiming LJ had "huge resources".  Well, yes, compared to L1 Bristol City of yesteryear, but not so, compared to the numerous big fish in the Championship currently.

I honestly think we are where we 'are' in this division. Mid-table budget. Mid-table attendances. Mid-table goals scored. Mid-table goals conceded. 4 wins. 4 draws. 4 loses.

Being a mid-table team will mean with the vagaries of the fixture list, injuries, travel, individual form, international breaks etc etc we will have good and bad runs throughout the season.

I think having players like Kalas, as someone else put it, takes us from being a mid-table team to a play-off team. Add in a Bolasie, Woodburn, Mount, Gayle or Abraham and that is better still.

For me, it's clear we are trying to play a brand of football i'm not sure we have the quality of player to consistently maintain. Hence the hit and miss nature of this squad. We are, because of budget, 2 or 3 top top class players away from challenging. Is that a mistake by the manager or an agreed tactic from the top? 

Is all this good enough? I notice people comparing us to Sheffield Utd or Brentford. I also remember people regularly comparing us to Preston and Alex Neil's name was mentioned a lot....not so much recently. My point? There is always a comparison in this division, some are too selective with them and you only watch one team in this division week in week out, I notice Brentford haven't won in their last 5 games either. 

Could another manager get more out of this squad, maybe, but I dis-agree with posters that say LJ's tenure here has been a failure, one of the most divisive for sure, but I think a lot has been achieved to get us established in this division.

Edited by Alessandro
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10 hours ago, Alessandro said:

I honestly think we are where we 'are' in this division. Mid-table budget. Mid-table attendances. Mid-table goals scored. Mid-table goals conceded. 4 wins. 4 draws. 4 loses.

Being a mid-table team will mean with the vagaries of the fixture list, injuries, travel, individual form, international breaks etc etc we will have good and bad runs throughout the season.

I think having players like Kalas, as someone else put it, takes us from being a mid-table team to a play-off team. Add in a Bolasie, Woodburn, Mount, Gayle or Abraham and that is better still.

For me, it's clear we are trying to play a brand of football i'm not sure we have the quality of player to consistently maintain. Hence the hit and miss nature of this squad. We are, because of budget, 2 or 3 top top class players away from challenging. Is that a mistake by the manager or an agreed tactic from the top? 

Is all this good enough? I notice people comparing us to Sheffield Utd or Brentford. I also remember people regularly comparing us to Preston and Alex Neil's name was mentioned a lot....not so much recently. My point? There is always a comparison in this division, some are too selective with them and you only watch one team in this division week in week out, I notice Brentford haven't won in their last 5 games either. 

Could another manager get more out of this squad, maybe, but I dis-agree with posters that say LJ's tenure here has been a failure, one of the most divisive for sure, but I think a lot has been achieved to get us established in this division.

The comparison to clubs like Preston, Sheff Utd,  Brentford etc - clubs similar to us ie no parachute payments, similar wages budget or lower in Preston's case - is to illustrate that having less money than the super rich only makes it more challenging and difficult, not impossible. 

Some on here give the impression that there is no hope for clubs such as us despite examples to the contrary. The club's owner does not appear to share this pessimism. 

This isn't to say that we expect or demand promotion, simply to say: "we can do better than we are doing." We can get more bang for our buck. In my case it is also not to question the head coach's position. 

On another thread I quoted SL himself from last May in which he - Steve Lansdown - said:

"We now have to learn from what we've done this year and go again next year and look to go a few steps further, get in the top six and vie for promotion at the end of the season. "

Now, I don't know what you hear when you read that, but what I hear is Steve Lansdown saying "go a few steps further" meaning, do better than last season ie 10th or higher. I also hear "get in the top six" meaning, er, get in the top six, ie the play offs. And "vie for promotion" means, to my mind, "get in the play offs" (the top six!) at the end of the season, rather than in December and January. You can only "vie" for promotion if you are "in the top six" "at the end of the season."

Steve is setting the bar high - higher each season - and looking for people to deliver the performance required. He has been consistent with his comments about challenging at the top end of this division, not struggling at the bottom (despite this, there is ongoing insistence that he is not interested in promotion). He couldn't be much clearer in his own quoted words above. He might be asking a lot - he might even be "deluded" in hoping that we can "vie for promotion" while selling our best players - but that looks like to me what he is asking of his coach and the squad. There is some evidence, and examples, which supports his optimistic outlook.

If Preston can finish 7th last season, with less than us, then there must be a way for us, with quite a bit more, to finish 6th, to "get in the top six," to "vie for promotion." It cannot be impossible. So long as there is the slightest possibility of doing so, Steve wants people at the club who can find the way. 

LJ has found a way to improve our league position in two and a half seasons here and from what Steve said in May he is looking for the same again this season (despite everything). Because if we keep improving and finishing a little higher at some point we will be in "the top six" and if you are there "at the end of the season" then you are in a position to "vie" for promotion. 

If we were to finish the same as last season, or a bit lower, I don't know what Steve would then think but I do not imagine he will be in any rush to remove LJ because it is clear from other statements from SL that the trust he has in Lee is critical. Having employed and paid wages to enough charlatans, wasters and shysters in his time here, having a head coach who has "his heart in it" is not something he will give up in a hurry. 

I would think that while Steve asks for year on year improvement he will know that progress is not always smooth and that a step backwards this season, or a bit of stagnation, does not necessarily mean we cannot "vie for promotion" next season.

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11 hours ago, Red-Robbo said:

Agreed Dave - and I was just waiting for someone to make that point.

However allowing for the guesswork of Transfermarkt on values, I think it gives us a very rough estimation of where we are with wage bills. Like you say, probably mid-table. Probably roughly where our current league position is ironically!

Remember this was all in response to a poster claiming LJ had "huge resources".  Well, yes, compared to L1 Bristol City of yesteryear, but not so, compared to the numerous big fish in the Championship currently.

Whatever our wages were last season, I think we can say they were not for wages 11/24, where we finished in the football table. I think they were 17th, but not sure. Either way, LJ over achieved last season, on the wages spent and position in the table delivered (regardless of the boom and bust nature of our form).

This is what SL is asking of his head coach, it is what the majority of football clubs ask: over achieve. Deliver me a higher league position than the wages we spend ought to produce.

By some estimates, with Weimann and Kallas, SL has given LJ a bigger wage budget again, and guess what he will be asking in return: yes, more over-achievement, and with more spent on wages, to finish higher than last season (and SL has publicly stated exactly this in two separate interviews).

It's a bloody big ask and good luck to LJ to keep delivering it but he didn't interview for the job saying I will deliver a league position exactly in proportion to the wages we spend compared to our competitors. And I doubt SL asked for that or put it in the job spec. 

They all want a bit more than might reasonably be expected.

Without parachute payments and putting the club at risk by over-spending, this is the only way to get promoted from this division: by a coach over-achieving and delivering a whole greater than the sum of its parts.

And from what I can see, and the repeated comments from SL, and from what he has done (ie, spent £50m on the ground), I think he wants to see us promoted to and playing in the Premier League. 

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OK , you want the hard truth ?

I've been unfaithful to OTIB . There now I've said it .

It was just the one time . I'd had a bit to drink and it was just a bit too easy . 

I regret it now but hope that we can put it behind us and not forget the good times that we've shared.

 

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On ‎07‎/‎10‎/‎2018 at 18:50, BS4 on Tour... said:

Mick McCarthy would bite a club’s hand off to be able to spend £15m per year.....his hands were well and truly tied at Ipswich - he spent about a third of that in his entire time at Ipswich .....and he’s got an incredible track record that our current head coach can only dream about....

Mick McCarthy win % is 38.8% Lee Johnson win % is 38.5% 

If Mick McCarthy's record is incredible Lee's is good as its only 0.3% different.

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2 hours ago, CHIPLEY RED said:

Mick McCarthy win % is 38.8% Lee Johnson win % is 38.5% 

If Mick McCarthy's record is incredible Lee's is good as its only 0.3% different.

Oh dear .... Mick McCarthy took Millwall to a third place finish in the championship in his first season as Millwall manager - then he took the Rep of Ireland to the 2002 World Cup Finals as manager where they nearly made the quarter finals but were eliminated by Spain in a penalty shoot out, that was the fifth best performance by a European team at that tournament - then he took Sunderland into the premier league as champions of the championship as their manager - then he took Wolves to the championship play offs in his first season as manager at Moulineux, then he finished 7th in the championship as Wolves boss in his second season, then he won the championship in his third season as Wolves boss, he took them up into the premier league as champions having spent 42 of the 46 ‘game weeks’ top of the table, then he kept Wolves in the premier league for three seasons. And his time at Wolves was very difficult at the start, they’d just got rid of Glenn Hoddle as manager and had to sell most of their established first team players due to their financial situation. Then Mick went to Ipswich as manager and worked miracles during his six years there, having only £5m to spend on transfer fees in that entire time - yet he kept them in the championship comfortably....and you think that record is only marginally better than LJ’s?! As I said - oh dear...

Edited by BS4 on Tour...
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4 minutes ago, BS4 on Tour... said:

Oh dear .... Mick McCarthy took Millwall to a third place finish in the championship in his first season as Millwall manager - then he took the Rep of Ireland to the 2002 World Cup Finals as manager where they nearly made the quarter finals but were eliminated by Spain in a penalty shoot out, that was the fifth best performance by a European team at that tournament - then he took Sunderland into the premier league as champions of the championship as their manager - then he took Wolves to the championship play offs in his first season as manager at Moulineux, then he finished 7th in the championship as Wolves boss in his second season, then he won the championship in his third season as Wolves boss, he took them up into the premier league as champions having spent 42 of the 46 ‘game weeks’ top of the table, then he kept Wolves in the premier league for three seasons. And his time at Wolves was very difficult at the start, they’d just got rid of Glenn Hoddle as manager and had to sell most of their established first team players due to their financial situation. Then Mick went to Ipswich as manager and worked miracles during his six years there, having only £5m to spend on transfer fees in that entire time - yet he kept them in the championship comfortably....and you think that record is only marginally better than LJ’s?! As I said - oh dear...

I just quoted the statistics. 

I would rather have Lee Johnson than Mick McCarthy or someone like Neil Warnock who is another who is regularly mentioned on here. But that's just my opinion.

And by the way if Mick did such a good job at Ipswich, which was his last job, how come he was hounded out by the fans and has not been snapped up by another club.

 

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30 minutes ago, CHIPLEY RED said:

I just quoted the statistics. 

I would rather have Lee Johnson than Mick McCarthy or someone like Neil Warnock who is another who is regularly mentioned on here. But that's just my opinion.

And by the way if Mick did such a good job at Ipswich, which was his last job, how come he was hounded out by the fans and has not been snapped up by another club.

 

Perhaps they failed to appreciate how well he was doing given the resources at his disposal. Ipswich’s form so far this season would appear to back this up.

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3 minutes ago, ChippenhamRed said:

Perhaps they failed to appreciate how well he was doing given the resources at his disposal. Ipswich’s form so far this season would appear to back this up.

Maybe and maybe we fail to appreciate Lee. We have a squad valued 14th in the championship which is about where we are.

We could do with strengthening at the back, although injuries haven't helped, I think our central mid field is light weight without either an enforcer or flair player and we can't put the ball in the back of the net. It may be Lee's fault he didn't strengthen or spend the transfer money or it may have been the board that didn't give him the money. I don't know which but whatever manager we had now I don't think the squad good enough to challenge at the top of this league.

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4 minutes ago, CHIPLEY RED said:

Maybe and maybe we fail to appreciate Lee. We have a squad valued 14th in the championship which is about where we are.

We could do with strengthening at the back, although injuries haven't helped, I think our central mid field is light weight without either an enforcer or flair player and we can't put the ball in the back of the net. It may be Lee's fault he didn't strengthen or spend the transfer money or it may have been the board that didn't give him the money. I don't know which but whatever manager we had now I don't think the squad good enough to challenge at the top of this league.

So , summarising your assessment

We are a bit light at the back

lightweight in central midfield , and lack an enforcer or flair player

And looking short up front / for goals

:whistle:

 

All going swimmingly then after 3 years , 50 plus signings, £40 million.....

 

Yep I can see why you say we should appreciate him...

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1 hour ago, CHIPLEY RED said:

I just quoted the statistics. 

I would rather have Lee Johnson than Mick McCarthy or someone like Neil Warnock who is another who is regularly mentioned on here. But that's just my opinion.

And by the way if Mick did such a good job at Ipswich, which was his last job, how come he was hounded out by the fans and has not been snapped up by another club.

 

Mick did an amazing job at Ipswich - on a very very tight budget - his career achievements are there to see - he’s won the championship twice - yep, he’s taken two teams up to the premier league as champions of this division - in six seasons with Wolves his lowest finish was 7th in the championship, and that was despite being faced with incredibly challenging financial constraints when he arrived there - he took his country to a World Cup finals tournament etc etc etc - how you can think LJ is even in the same bracket is beyond belief...

Edited by BS4 on Tour...
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McCarthy is an excellent manager in many respects, but I fear he maybe a bit tactically limited?

Also he lost Waghorn, McGoldrick and Garner this summer in the striking dept and Webster at the back- it's possible Ipswich might have struggled for goals even had he stayed. That said they'd be lower midtable probably IMO, but he wouldn't have been immune to the effect of0 losing such players.

Edited by Mr Popodopolous

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The problem is he will never live down the nepotism on here.

I actually think its refreshing that he has the security and I think he's doing a brilliant job with the resources at his disposal.

He has had his three best players sold. One of which HE turned into a £10M sale.

We have a tiered coaching structure in place and ever improving facilities.

We are moving in the right direction (unfortunately not quickly enough for some) but then you can't please everyone.

I find him bright and engaging and very respectful of the opposition. With the media exposure last year I thought he helped portray Bristol City in a positive manner.

Yes, he's not perfect but then again none of us are.

 

 

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31 minutes ago, Swede said:

The problem is he will never live down the nepotism on here.

I actually think its refreshing that he has the security and I think he's doing a brilliant job with the resources at his disposal.

He has had his three best players sold. One of which HE turned into a £10M sale.

We have a tiered coaching structure in place and ever improving facilities.

We are moving in the right direction (unfortunately not quickly enough for some) but then you can't please everyone.

I find him bright and engaging and very respectful of the opposition. With the media exposure last year I thought he helped portray Bristol City in a positive manner.

Yes, he's not perfect but then again none of us are.

 

 

A ‘brilliant’ job ?

Really ?

 

 

wow  

wow

 

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2 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

McCarthy is an excellent manager in many respects, but I fear he maybe a bit tactically limited?

Also he lost Waghorn, McGoldrick and Garner this summer in the striking dept and Webster at the back- it's possible Ipswich might have struggled for goals even had he stayed. That said they'd be lower midtable probably IMO, but he wouldn't have been immune to the effect of0 losing such players.

When he joined Wolves they had to sell most of their established first teamers due to financial constraints after the Hoddle reign...he got them into the play offs in his first season, finished 7th in his second season and took them up to the PL as champions in his third season....he’s well used to operating under challenging conditions - including during his six year stint at Portman Road, he would have kept them comfortably in this division if he’d stayed with Ipswich....

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15 minutes ago, BS4 on Tour... said:

When he joined Wolves they had to sell most of their established first teamers due to financial constraints after the Hoddle reign...he got them into the play offs in his first season, finished 7th in his second season and took them up to the PL as champions in his third season....he’s well used to operating under challenging conditions - including during his six year stint at Portman Road, he would have kept them comfortably in this division if he’d stayed with Ipswich....

I'm not disputing his record, but I'm suggesting he's perhaps tactically limited.

Do you know how many goals- let alone assists- Waghorn, Garner and McGoldrick provided in the League last year?

A quick search suggests:

  • McGoldrick- 6 goals and 4 assists.
  • Garner- 10 goals and 2 assists.
  • Waghorn- 16 goals and 11 assists.

Now some of them may have set up each other so may not be countable but I'd suggest most managers would struggle off the back of that in one summer. 32 goals and 17 assists in the League last year- sold/lost in the summer! (They scored 57 goals last season). Huge task.

He may not (probably wouldn't )have taken them down but filling that hole at a club who spend little, is a huge ask for anyone.

Edited by Mr Popodopolous
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On 07/10/2018 at 17:29, Redrascal2 said:

Better things. Surely there is no one out there as gullable and as poor a judge of a Manager as Lansdown.

LJ is very highly thought of in the professional game with his methods held up as an example to others. He will most probably manage in the Premiership in the future.

 

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10 minutes ago, Ashtonwurzel said:

LJ is very highly thought of in the professional game with his methods held up as an example to others. He will most probably manage in the Premiership in the future.

 

Hi Lee.

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4 hours ago, CHIPLEY RED said:

Maybe and maybe we fail to appreciate Lee. We have a squad valued 14th in the championship which is about where we are.

We could do with strengthening at the back, although injuries haven't helped, I think our central mid field is light weight without either an enforcer or flair player and we can't put the ball in the back of the net. It may be Lee's fault he didn't strengthen or spend the transfer money or it may have been the board that didn't give him the money. I don't know which but whatever manager we had now I don't think the squad good enough to challenge at the top of this league.

You’ve had a mare , you’re saying we’re light all over the pitch but we’re failing to appreciate lj

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23 minutes ago, Ashtonwurzel said:

LJ is very highly thought of in the professional game with his methods held up as an example to others. He will most probably manage in the Premiership in the future.

 

You on a wind up??

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5 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

McCarthy is an excellent manager in many respects, but I fear he maybe a bit tactically limited?

I don’t think you need to be tactically “expansive" to do well in this division.  You can do very well with good(ish) players who all know what is expected of them, and prepared to work hard in combo with each other.

Also he lost Waghorn, McGoldrick and Garner this summer in the striking dept and Webster at the back- it's possible Ipswich might have struggled for goals even had he stayed. That said they'd be lower midtable probably IMO, but he wouldn't have been immune to the effect of0 losing such players.

I think in some respects LJ tried to be too clever, he’s even said that himself, that he’s complicated it too much.  I would rather see him stick by his principled 442 if that is his belief....but in doing so, play the players that fit it.  Recruit the players that fit it.  Let them know they fit it, and that’s why they’ve been picked.

On a tangent, lot of talk on TalkSport this evening about Winks and his selection in England squad.  Personally I don’t get the fuss, looks very average for Spurs, let alone England....but you’ve got to hope that Southgate sees him performing a defined role and he fits it.

For all the stick Marley has got, I can see why LJ signed him, and I actually think that (in the main), when he’s played in front of Hunt, Hunt looks better.  Marley knows his strengths and weaknesses and sometimes the balance of a physical player is needed in what most of us see as a team without huge strength / backbone.

 

Also, good post earlier @Alessandro 👍

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32 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I think in some respects LJ tried to be too clever, he’s even said that himself, that he’s complicated it too much.  I would rather see him stick by his principled 442 if that is his belief....but in doing so, play the players that fit it.  Recruit the players that fit it.  Let them know they fit it, and that’s why they’ve been picked.

On a tangent, lot of talk on TalkSport this evening about Winks and his selection in England squad.  Personally I don’t get the fuss, looks very average for Spurs, let alone England....but you’ve got to hope that Southgate sees him performing a defined role and he fits it.

For all the stick Marley has got, I can see why LJ signed him, and I actually think that (in the main), when he’s played in front of Hunt, Hunt looks better.  Marley knows his strengths and weaknesses and sometimes the balance of a physical player is needed in what most of us see as a team without huge strength / backbone.

 

Also, good post earlier @Alessandro 👍

See, a few years ago I might have agreed in full. Just think the Championship has evolved- and is still evolving- that increasingly a less basic template is necessary. I concur it's not the be all and end all.

However, when I look at sides like Wolves and from mid December onwards, Fulham last season I see good football well excellent football in fact, with a strong emphasis on the midfield or the centre being fairly packed. Sheffield United and their various switching between 3-5-2, 3-5-1-1 last year and this season 3-4-1-2 isn't such a basic shape IMO. Brentford and their excellent football, Leeds under Bielsa and even Norwich can be pretty good to watch- even though their football last year was labelled as slow. None really play 4-4-2. Mty personal view is that 4-4-2 can or will serve sides well in this League up to a point...but won't get sides over the line in terms of promotion. Essentially see a 2 in CM v a lot of sides at this level as swimming against the tide. Derby with Lampard, Forest with Karanka- probably more besides.

Agree on Watkins and why he was signed- wouldn't necessarily have him as a starter, but the work rate, cover- bit of physicality- all something that can help in certain games.

Edited by Mr Popodopolous
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6 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

See, a few years ago I might have agreed in full. Just think the Championship has evolved- and is still evolving- that increasingly a less basic template is necessary. I concur it's not the be all and end all.

However, when I look at sides like Wolves and from mid December onwards, Fulham last season I see good football well excellent football in fact, with a strong emphasis on the midfield or the centre being fairly packed. Sheffield United and their various switching between 3-5-2, 3-5-1-1 last year and this season 3-4-1-2 isn't such a basic shape IMO. Brentford and their excellent football, Leeds under Bielsa and even Norwich can be pretty good to watch- even though their football last year was labelled as slow. None really play 4-4-2. Mty personal view is that 4-4-2 can or will serve sides well in this League up to a point...but won't get sides over the line in terms of promotion. Essentially see a 2 in CM v a lot of sides at this level ad swimming against the tide.

Agree on Watkins and why he was signed- wouldn't necessarily have him as a starter, but the work rate, cover- bit of physicality- all something that can help in certain games.

Fair response Mr P.  Sheffield United’s switching formation is a good observation but it was done within the confines of a small(ish) group of players in the back-nine....the forwards were switched a bit, but the rest of the side didn’t change much in personnel.

I agree and disagree with the midfield 2.  It can leave us exposed, but it should also mean our other players should be free to expose the opposition.  Why don’t we see that happening?

Or why doesn’t one of the wide players tuck in to create the extra body?  Why don’t we see that happening?

Every formation has strengths and weaknesses, and different strengths and weaknesses depending on the opposite formation.  It’s still 11v11 out there.

Leadership and Football-intelligence play a big part in overcoming the deficiencies of your system.  I sense we lack some of both.

Andi Weimann has both.  Just one example from Rotherham away.  Ball kicked out by us for an injury.  Weimann on left wing, about to throw it back, but is gesturing to Eliasson to take it.  Eliasson in his naivety is saying “nah, you take it Andi, you’re closest, we are only giving it back to their keeper” or words to that effect.  Weimann then explains why.  Gives the ball to Eliasson, asks him to wait until he sprints 30 yards into the centre to split their CBs....so the RU keeper can’t start a quick attack from receiving the ball.  Very simple, but I don’t see enough of that.

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10 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Fair response Mr P.  Sheffield United’s switching formation is a good observation but it was done within the confines of a small(ish) group of players in the back-nine....the forwards were switched a bit, but the rest of the side didn’t change much in personnel.

I agree and disagree with the midfield 2.  It can leave us exposed, but it should also mean our other players should be free to expose the opposition.  Why don’t we see that happening?

Or why doesn’t one of the wide players tuck in to create the extra body?  Why don’t we see that happening?

Every formation has strengths and weaknesses, and different strengths and weaknesses depending on the opposite formation.  It’s still 11v11 out there.

Leadership and Football-intelligence play a big part in overcoming the deficiencies of your system.  I sense we lack some of both.

Andi Weimann has both.  Just one example from Rotherham away.  Ball kicked out by us for an injury.  Weimann on left wing, about to throw it back, but is gesturing to Eliasson to take it.  Eliasson in his naivety is saying “nah, you take it Andi, you’re closest, we are only giving it back to their keeper” or words to that effect.  Weimann then explains why.  Gives the ball to Eliasson, asks him to wait until he sprints 30 yards into the centre to split their CBs....so the RU keeper can’t start a quick attack from receiving the ball.  Very simple, but I don’t see enough of that.

Agree with various points Dave.

Wide players tucking in is true enough- think some are better at it than others, more compatible to it than others. Think when we had Brownhill wide right- same can go for full backs, thinking Wright and Magnússon were at RB and LB respectively, had the ability to go inside if needs be I thought. Hunt? Not so much. Of our current true wingers, I'd suggest O'Dowda would be the most comfortable with it. Watkins and in various ways Eliasson, not so much. Wonder if Brownhill and O'Dowda not so much as wingers but as wide midfielders but still in the 4-4-2 might be worth considering. They are also quite good workrate wise and defensively. Brownhill can definitely move inside, O'Dowda maybe.

Agreed- leadership and football intelligence is not on the whole one of our strongest points. Good example you post there about Weimann and Eliasson- the former is an experienced pro who can and should be passing these things on- Eliasson not so much. Feeds into game management I feel- or lack of as the case maybe.

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My issue with getting rid of LJ is who comes in to replace him? Let's be fair, we've been here before, where we have a manager who has a lot of ups and downs and generally balances out somewhere in the middle. In those circumstances we've ended up sacking them only for a new manager to come in and make things worse. 

It's all good saying we want better, but realistically who are we going to target and  who is going to come to the club with an enthusiastic outlook? 

It's been made clear that we are a club with a budget, we're not a club who averages the biggest attendances, we've not got any real stand out players in comparison to other clubs and about our biggest selling point is that we have a modern stadium. As a manager why would any big name pick us when there are clubs like Villa, Stoke, Hull even Swansea who would be a far easier job to take on when you look at risk /reward. 

It's easy when you love your club to think "I'd love to manage this club, why wouldn't other managers?!" but the harsh truth is that we're not that big. We're a club with potential but our financial ability to offer wages to draw in the big players is not there, so any manager who comes in has to accept he may have to sell some of our best to bring in even his third or fourth choice targets. We're a selling club, essentially the Southampton of the Championship, it sucks but that's where we are and that's not an easy sell to put towards a manager with a good resume. 

Edited by Spike

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As ever, I've mixed views on this. Here is broadly where I am:

 

Is LJ doing a great job? No.

Is LJ doing a terrible job? No.

Is LJ doing a good job? Depends on the week.

Are there better managers than LJ in the division? Definitely.

Are there better managers for Bristol City in the division? Possibly.

Are there worse managers for Bristol City in the division? Certainly.

Could we have done better in recent seasons without the massive dip in form? Yes.

Can I remember a manager doing a better job for Bristol City in the second tier consistently over time (since 1990)? No.

 

All in all, I think the likelihood is we are more likely to replace LJ with a worse manager than we are a better one. That isn't just because I think the club has made poor management decisions - though of course they have at times - but because you never know how good a fit a manager is going to be at a club until you employ them. Nigel Pearson at Derby made perfect sense and was a disaster. Ronald Koeman at Everton seemed a good idea and turned out to be a bad one. Bruce had a good track record but could not get Villa up. Meanwhile I doubt Burnley fans were enthused by Dyche, or Leicester by Ranieri. It's easy to praise or criticise managerial appointments in hindsight but nobody knows. Pulis has a great track record and was a dreadful manager for us. I'd have backed SOD to do well based on his record at Doncaster. Meanwhile many of us were underwhelmed by Cotterill and had the best season in recent memory. And then of course there is Steve Coppell.

We could replace LJ and get promoted. We could much more easily replace him and get relegated. Ipswich fans were desperate to get rid of McCarthy and are now 23rd, Hull fans were probably pleased with Adkins are now 24th. You'd have to say Alex Neill and Neil Harris did better jobs than LJ last season but both teams are struggling now.

For me, it is about what we want and whether we stick or we twist. A few years ago, I think we would have definitely twisted. For now, I think - and my opinion would of course change if were near the relegation zone - we are finally - and quite belatedly - building up the squad and club infrastructure so we can become an established Championship team. As someone who has spent more time supporting the club in League One than the Championship, I think that is a good thing. I'd love us to compete at the top end some time soon but I've been a City fan long enough to know that there are two ways out of this division and we tend to make use of one much more than the other. If LJ continues to establish us in the top half of the Championship for a couple more years then it will not be the most exciting thing that has ever happened - and there will always be the question of if we could have done better - but it won't be the worst thing to ever happen either.

 

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