A bad run doesn't mean the gaffer has to be lynched

[BS4 on Tour...]

9 minutes ago, bcfcredandwhite said:

That’s 5 seasons - and multiple managers: GJ, Millen, Delboy and SoD, but I do concede that this is only our 4th so I was wrong. 

It was six seasons....

2007/08 - one

2008/09 - two

2009/10 - three

2010/11 - four

2011/12 - five

2012/13 - six...

[Davefevs]

7 hours ago, havanatopia said:

What do you mean by gradual climb? In the last 20 years we have yo-yo'd between 2nd and 3rd tier. For the first time in that period we have an owner who has invested infinitely more than anybody else before him yet he presides over a rookie coach tasked with taking the club from maximum 3 million prize money to minimum 100 million prize money. In my humble opinion you may well give such a 'promising' rookie a fair crack of the whip if real and fast progress is made to qualify for such prize money. Johnson has had that time and some and in my view is showing scant little sign of learning fast enough on the job; well, that is blatantly self evident.

I think my remarks adequately answer your questions.

Sorry, but I’ve not read every reply, but I think you make a very good point re SL’s investment / backing of a rookie manager.. and not really delivered over the best part of 3 years.  It’s a bit like the gamble by Don Ameche and Denholm Elliott with Eddie Murphy in Trading Places, albeit a lot more than a $1 bet.

Its not a fair comparison I accept, but Cotts was backed - but delivered in 14/15....let’s not forget he sold his top scorer (Baldock to Brighton) 2 games into the season, which funded all of the signings put together (3 of them - Wilbraham, Wade - became permanent and Litts were free transfers!).  The comparison is unfair because Lg1 is much different to the parachute payment infested Championship.

However, the underperforming City team of 15/16 that Johnson took over did begin to perform, but not without the loans of Tomlin, Matthews, Odemwingie, Pearce, and Scott Golbourne’s return....so LJ backed well from day one.

I like LJ, not as much as Cotts, but I do like him.  But I don’t think he’ll take any further than flirtation with the play-offs.  It’s kinda where we are as a club, and it’s kinda where LJ is as a head-coach.  I’m happy to be sat here with 16 points from 12 games...60ish points for the season at this rate....nice and safe.  Kelly becoming a regular.  Webster developing, showing why there’s £5m of add-ons attached to him.  One or two others too.

The big question’s are:

1. do we accept that
2. hope that a flirtation will get lucky and we’ll get promoted via play-offs
3. gamble that another manager can take us to the next level
4. gamble that another manager takes us back into the 3rd tier

What I don’t like is the manner of a couple of recent performances.

[JamesBCFC]

2 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Sorry, but I’ve not read every reply, but I think you make a very good point re SL’s investment / backing of a rookie manager.. and not really delivered over the best part of 3 years.  It’s a bit like the gamble by Don Ameche and Denholm Elliott with Eddie Murphy in Trading Places, albeit a lot more than a $1 bet.

Its not a fair comparison I accept, but Cotts was backed - but delivered in 14/15....let’s not forget he sold his top scorer (Baldock to Brighton) 2 games into the season, which funded all of the signings put together (3 of them - Wilbraham, Wade - became permanent and Litts were free transfers!).  The comparison is unfair because Lg1 is much different to the parachute payment infested Championship.

However, the underperforming City team of 15/16 that Johnson took over did begin to perform, but not without the loans of Tomlin, Matthews, Odemwingie, Pearce, and Scott Golbourne’s return....so LJ backed well from day one.

I like LJ, not as much as Cotts, but I do like him.  But I don’t think he’ll take any further than flirtation with the play-offs.  It’s kinda where we are as a club, and it’s kinda where LJ is as a head-coach.  I’m happy to be sat here with 16 points from 12 games...60ish points for the season at this rate....nice and safe.  Kelly becoming a regular.  Webster developing, showing why there’s £5m of add-ons attached to him.  One or two others too.

The big question’s are:

1. do we accept that
2. hope that a flirtation will get lucky and we’ll get promoted via play-offs
3. gamble that another manager can take us to the next level
4. gamble that another manager takes us back into the 3rd tier

What I don’t like is the manner of a couple of recent performances.

Hadn't JET also scored 20 odd goals the season before?

Its easier to sell a 20 goal player when you know that you have another one at the club already.

[glen humphries]

7 hours ago, bcfcredandwhite said:

Would you people who are posting negatively about Lee Johnson honestly, seriously want him sacked right here and now? 

 

yes

[Guest]

7 hours ago, bcfcredandwhite said:

Would you people who are posting negatively about Lee Johnson honestly, seriously want him sacked right here and now? 

 

Should have gone during our record breaking winless streak, trouble is when he does eventually go I wont be holding out much hope of someone much different coming in, after no doubt his 2 sidekicks taking over.

Can I ask LJ happy 4 now fans; Do you really believe he has what it takes to repeat what the likes of Brighton/Huddersfield etc have done, move us up a division (even for a season or 2) anytime soon or are you happy for us to stay just where we are selling off our best players and constantly rebuilding.......and going NO-WHERE?

[Guest]

7 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Sorry, but I’ve not read every reply, but I think you make a very good point re SL’s investment / backing of a rookie manager.. and not really delivered over the best part of 3 years.  It’s a bit like the gamble by Don Ameche and Denholm Elliott with Eddie Murphy in Trading Places, albeit a lot more than a $1 bet.

Its not a fair comparison I accept, but Cotts was backed - but delivered in 14/15....let’s not forget he sold his top scorer (Baldock to Brighton) 2 games into the season, which funded all of the signings put together (3 of them - Wilbraham, Wade - became permanent and Litts were free transfers!).  The comparison is unfair because Lg1 is much different to the parachute payment infested Championship.

However, the underperforming City team of 15/16 that Johnson took over did begin to perform, but not without the loans of Tomlin, Matthews, Odemwingie, Pearce, and Scott Golbourne’s return....so LJ backed well from day one.

I like LJ, not as much as Cotts, but I do like him.  But I don’t think he’ll take any further than flirtation with the play-offs.  It’s kinda where we are as a club, and it’s kinda where LJ is as a head-coach.  I’m happy to be sat here with 16 points from 12 games...60ish points for the season at this rate....nice and safe.  Kelly becoming a regular.  Webster developing, showing why there’s £5m of add-ons attached to him.  One or two others too.

The big question’s are:

1. do we accept that
2. hope that a flirtation will get lucky and we’ll get promoted via play-offs
3. gamble that another manager can take us to the next level
4. gamble that another manager takes us back into the 3rd tier

What I don’t like is the manner of a couple of recent performances.

Really like most of your post but the bit in red......really this means you are happy for us to employ a manager that you think will not take us to the next level; that really shows this clubs ambition limits and probably why our best players cant wait to leave it. Kelly will be gone as soon as any money comes in for him.

We haven't done much at all really since last xmas and yes I would rather gamble on us getting lucky and finding a better manager next time but fear it will be another like minded one that "fits in".

[MC RISK77]

20 hours ago, phantom said:

I think part of the problem is our owner comes out and says he expects a top 6 finish etc, many of us buy into this belief and when we are see the same problems on the pitch unfolding in front of our eyes as in the past it's just pure frustration, and a sad feeling of de ja vu!

Well then the owner is deluded then. If he expects top 6 and potentially promotion he needs to throw more money into the recruitment side. I am not saying he hasn’t done this over the years and I certainly wouldn’t wish anyone else in charge at the club.

however imo to create a sustained promotion challenge you need an incredibly strong squad with at least two quality championship players to every position. That costs serious money and the type of money that has not been spent since we returned to this league.

we are where we probably should be imo

[reddogkev]

39 minutes ago, Bri Stool City said:

Should have gone during our record breaking winless streak, trouble is when he does eventually go I wont be holding out much hope of someone much different coming in, after no doubt his 2 sidekicks taking over.

Can I ask LJ happy 4 now fans; Do you really believe he has what it takes to repeat what the likes of Brighton/Huddersfield etc have done, move us up a division (even for a season or 2) anytime soon or are you happy for us to stay just where we are selling off our best players and constantly rebuilding.......and going NO-WHERE?

You want too much - you are a greedy City fan!  What do you mean by 'going nowhere?'  Can you not see that the club is progressing?  It has been mentioned thousands of times on here in good detail that we are building for sustained success.  It seems like you are in a hurry for promotion.  You can't rush that, I'm sure it will happen in the next 4 years; whether LJ is the man to do that, I'm not so sure, I doubt he will have it in him to achieve promotion - but that doesn't mean he should be sacked for building City into a competitive Championship club who have reached a major cup semi-final.  Unless LJ has been told that he has to deliver promotion this season, he is doing well at the present.

[BobBobSuperBob]

9 hours ago, bcfcredandwhite said:

Would you people who are posting negatively about Lee Johnson honestly, seriously want him sacked right here and now? 

 

No , I’d identify the very best two or three people for the role and wait for one of them to become available

[Maesknoll Red]

9 hours ago, Davefevs said:

I like LJ, not as much as Cotts, but I do like him.  But I don’t think he’ll take any further than flirtation with the play-offs.  It’s kinda where we are as a club, and it’s kinda where LJ is as a head-coach.  I’m happy to be sat here with 16 points from 12 games...60ish points for the season at this rate....nice and safe.  Kelly becoming a regular.  Webster developing, showing why there’s £5m of add-ons attached to him.  One or two others too.

The big question’s are:

1. do we accept that
2. hope that a flirtation will get lucky and we’ll get promoted via play-offs
3. gamble that another manager can take us to the next level
4. gamble that another manager takes us back into the 3rd tier

What I don’t like is the manner of a couple of recent performances.

Nice and safe....   Is that what most fans want?  It's not what I'd like to see, I'd prefer a gamble, a push to try something new, how long would any fans that aren't 100% diehard and hate missing a game, keep going to see a 'nice and safe' middle of the table team, with no fear of relegation (although I am not convinced we are safe from that yet) no realistic chance of pushing for top two, with maybe, as you say, the outside chance of a flirtation with the playoffs.

I could see the crowds dropping and in the end, what is the point of entering a competition (the league) if you aren't trying to win it, at a professional level, I an see no point at all.

[Barry Sheene]

15 hours ago, Bar BS3 said:

It’s not “ring fenced” though, is it. 

During the record breaking bad run, SL believed that LJ could turn it around and he was spot on. 

No only did he turn it around, but we then went on to improve further last season.

so it’s not a case of some dodgy love in, its case of our owner having faith in our manager. 

We should welcome such belief and support! 

Of course, we also need to cut out the prolonged bad spells, which for the record, I don’t think we are in one at the moment. 

I suspect that most clubs go 5 games without a win at this level. The key is not doing it more than occasionally. 

Some people need to look at the league table and realise that we are doing ok, again! 

Thanks for the reply BS3. 

I believe his position is being ring fenced and there are a couple of reason why i think that.

Firstly it is no secret to anybody involved with the football club that the manager is going nowhere. He's not going to get the sack whatever happens hence his position in my view is ring fenced.

Secondly no other manager in the Lansdown era has been give the same type of backing by the board. Lee is Lansdown man to see the project through hence again in my opinion his position is ring fenced.

[Davefevs]

8 hours ago, JamesBCFC said:

Hadn't JET also scored 20 odd goals the season before?

Its easier to sell a 20 goal player when you know that you have another one at the club already.

Like LJ with Diedhiou (barring injuries last season) when selling Reid? 

2 hours ago, Bri Stool City said:

Really like most of your post but the bit in red......really this means you are happy for us to employ a manager that you think will not take us to the next level; that really shows this clubs ambition limits and probably why our best players cant wait to leave it. Kelly will be gone as soon as any money comes in for him.

We haven't done much at all really since last xmas and yes I would rather gamble on us getting lucky and finding a better manager next time but fear it will be another like minded one that "fits in".

No, not necessarily happy, and if I though there was someone who’d come in and wave a magic wand and get us promoted I’d go for it big time. I don’t think there is though. I could pick fault in LJ all day long, but I could with any manager we are likely to get, but I still like him. 

The strategy / project is brilliant for Bristol City....

....until it is put inside the context of Championship, and in particular Parachute Payments.

Then the strategy is misguided imho. 

That is why we are unlikely to get the calibre of manager (not players) we need. 

Not sure if I’ve answered you or not. It’s not an easy answer. 

42 minutes ago, Maesknoll Red said:

Nice and safe....   Is that what most fans want?  It's not what I'd like to see, I'd prefer a gamble, a push to try something new, how long would any fans that aren't 100% diehard and hate missing a game, keep going to see a 'nice and safe' middle of the table team, with no fear of relegation (although I am not convinced we are safe from that yet) no realistic chance of pushing for top two, with maybe, as you say, the outside chance of a flirtation with the playoffs.

I could see the crowds dropping and in the end, what is the point of entering a competition (the league) if you aren't trying to win it, at a professional level, I an see no point at all.

What fans want is?

....is probably what SL is voicing publicly, eg top 6, progression. 

The tools he is using to deliver that (Finances / Staff inc players) are not adequate, so probably why I’m “happy” with nice and safe, because I’m willing to accept a season of standing still, if it means we kick on next. 

I’m not sure we will kick on, but that’s another matter!!!!

[Spike]

23 hours ago, Portland Bill said:

For me it’s the playing style and tactics, I haven’t got a clue what he is sending his team out to do. Seriously. If anyone can tell me what our game plan is it would be interesting. 

Your telling us he’s a promising young manager, I’ve read in the past that he is tactically astute, whereas me and many others just don’t see it. 

 

To be fair to Lee I watched his video where he tactically broke down his game plan for when we beat Manchester United and it was then that I could see he does have tactical knowledge. The issue, I think personally, is that this league is such a tight league with so many variables that tactical plans can go right out of the window due to so many different things and without the manager sitting there, breaking down his tactics bit by bit it's easy to be baffled by the decisions made. 

It's far too easy to look at tactics after the game and say "why didn't he do this?!" because at that point us fans know the outcome and have the over powered gift of hindsight. 

As I mentioned before, I do believe LJ has tactical knowledge, the issue is there are 24 teams in this league, many of them with stronger squad, more resources and many with more experience. Just because we lose to a team who seem weaker than us it doesn't mean LJ is tactically inept, it just means that it only takes a few squads to be a lot stronger and a few to be weaker but have managers who have that experience or a slightly better gameplan to land is mid table. 

I honestly belive this is one of, if not the most competitive leagues in the world. It takes a very special combination of finances, stand out manager, a squad who peak in unison and even some good luck to get promoted from it. Even when a team do get promoted from the championship they need all of those things I've mentioned to come together again along with heavy investment to remain up there. A good example of a manager with a game plan, tactics, and money still falling is Warnock, a man that many of our fans have wanted in the past. He's good at making championship teams grind their way into the Prem but once they are there their bite suddenly doesn't seem quite so bad as their bark because those tactics don't work at that level. 

To summarise what I'm saying, LJ knows exactly what he wants his team to do, he knows exactly what he wants from his players but what it comes down to is this is an extremely difficult league and he's already working with far less than many clubs have to work with and they're lower than us. It can get far worse than these frustrating bad runs and as fans we have to remember that. The only time I see this club changing and being a solid promotion chaser is when we have the financial clout behind it or we have a season where we massively over-achieve, until then it would appear that SL is doing everything in his power to get this club in a position where it will eventually have that financial clout, which in turn will allow our manager at that time to invest higher wages and make bigger bids for the players who will make a big difference in that push to become a Premier League club. 

[BRISTOLCITY26]

20 hours ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

And at this time of season , so are half the teams in the Championship , are only ‘ *points off the play offs’ 

There are 12 teams with 4 or less points of play offs, six of whom sit above us ....we are also 

10 points between play offs and relegation zone at present

And we could have easily lost against any of the sides we have taken points off  at AG they all missed very good chances when drawing or even when ahead in Blackburn’s case

 

The same could be said for our losses. Had chances early against Wigan and WBA, Had late chances against Rotherham and had 3/4 good chances early against Sheff Weds.

 

Guess it works both ways,

[Bar BS3]

1 hour ago, Barry Sheene said:

Thanks for the reply BS3. 

I believe his position is being ring fenced and there are a couple of reason why i think that.

Firstly it is no secret to anybody involved with the football club that the manager is going nowhere. He's not going to get the sack whatever happens hence his position in my view is ring fenced.

Secondly no other manager in the Lansdown era has been give the same type of backing by the board. Lee is Lansdown man to see the project through hence again in my opinion his position is ring fenced.

His job is safe because he’s doing ok. He buys in to the plan and SL trusts him. There aren’t many other managers that fit that criteria. 

He didn’t get the sack during our bad run, because SL had faith he could turn things around - and he was right. 

Make no mistake (as others seem to like to do) if LJ gets to a point where SL loses faith and trust in him to achieve what he has planned, then LJ will be replaced. 

Likely withsomeone internal, who also buys into what’s going on, rather than an outsider, who is used to changing jobs every 2 seasons. 

It isn’t the path to overnight success, as some seem so desperate for, but it’s a sound basis for stability and steady progression.

Lets not forget that it’s been a long time since we’ve been an established championship side. That in itself is major progress. Even under GJ, the near success was one season really, after which we dropped and dropped, until being relegated and because there was no structure, we struggled in L1 initially. 

If it takes a few years to genuinely compete and challenge for promotion, then so be it. 

We are currently just one win away from the play off places, yet some people don’t see that as progress, despite probably watching us for most of their lives either in League one, or struggling to stay in the championship, with no real plan or structure.

Patience is needed. I know that’s hard and I know we’ve all been patient for far too long, but this is a new era, only really 2/3 years in to a new long term project. 

Too much is invested now and SL won’t hesitate to change things if he loses faith in people’s ability to deliver. 

[ChippenhamRed]

2 hours ago, Barry Sheene said:

Thanks for the reply BS3. 

I believe his position is being ring fenced and there are a couple of reason why i think that. 

Firstly it is no secret to anybody involved with the football club that the manager is going nowhere. He's not going to get the sack whatever happens hence his position in my view is ring fenced.

Secondly no other manager in the Lansdown era has been give the same type of backing by the board. Lee is Lansdown man to see the project through hence again in my opinion his position is ring fenced.

How do you know this?  You don't.

It is a matter of record that Johnson's position was considered when he was at his lowest ebb in 16/17.  The question was asked.  That he survived on that occasion does not mean he would survive in the future "whatever happens".

Lansdown has stated quite clearly that he expects to see year-on-year improvement.  Rather inconveniently for some, Johnson has so far delivered that.  If we were to suddenly nose-dive towards relegation, or even actually be relegated, without doubt Johnson's position would be reconsidered, just like it was last time, and it is by no means certain that he would survive.  In fact, given the investment on and off the pitch, I suspect his position would become untenable in those circumstances.

I can't say for certain that he would be sacked; I'm not claiming that.  But certainly you cannot say "He's not going to get the sack whatever happens" - because you don't know that.  It's a myth that continue to perpetuate.

[Barry Sheene]

5 hours ago, ChippenhamRed said:

How do you know this?  You don't.

It is a matter of record that Johnson's position was considered when he was at his lowest ebb in 16/17.  The question was asked.  That he survived on that occasion does not mean he would survive in the future "whatever happens".

Lansdown has stated quite clearly that he expects to see year-on-year improvement.  Rather inconveniently for some, Johnson has so far delivered that.  If we were to suddenly nose-dive towards relegation, or even actually be relegated, without doubt Johnson's position would be reconsidered, just like it was last time, and it is by no means certain that he would survive.  In fact, given the investment on and off the pitch, I suspect his position would become untenable in those circumstances.

I can't say for certain that he would be sacked; I'm not claiming that.  But certainly you cannot say "He's not going to get the sack whatever happens" - because you don't know that.  It's a myth that continue to perpetuate.

Well my opinion is based on the fact that other manager in the Lansdown era who have gone on bad runs have had the door shown to them. 

You are right I cannot say for certain if he will lose his job as you don't know if he will stay in the job.

My point to the other poster is that I believe his position is being ring fenced purely because Mr Lansdown has not shown any other of his appointments the same patience.

[Leveller]

1 hour ago, Barry Sheene said:

Well my opinion is based on the fact that other manager in the Lansdown era who have gone on bad runs have had the door shown to them. 

You are right I cannot say for certain if he will lose his job as you don't know if he will stay in the job.

My point to the other poster is that I believe his position is being ring fenced purely because Mr Lansdown has not shown any other of his appointments the same patience.

I suspect that the ring fencing may exist, to an extent, but not because of any love in between Lansdown and Johnson.

I think Lansdown is simply trying to establish a level of stability which is rare in football these days, because most of the clubs that change managers very frequently aren’t any more successful - and of course it’s very expensive to keep paying them off.

To an extent my desire not to sack is for the same reasons. At some level of failure you have to sack a manager, but I’m sure SL sees a long term strategy as better than quick fixes every season. Having chosen LJ, he will leave him in place unless and until a long term decline looks likely, even if it says “target - play off place” in his annual review, as an aspiration.

On the whole, I support this, though it’s interesting and challenging to see Leeds’ choice of Bielsa apparently working so well, after years of sticking a pin in the electoral register.

[ChippenhamRed]

1 hour ago, Barry Sheene said:

Well my opinion is based on the fact that other manager in the Lansdown era who have gone on bad runs have had the door shown to them. 

You are right I cannot say for certain if he will lose his job as you don't know if he will stay in the job.

My point to the other poster is that I believe his position is being ring fenced purely because Mr Lansdown has not shown any other of his appointments the same patience.

Being given more time and patience than previous managers is not the same thing as “he won’t be sacked whatever happens”.

I find it curious that people still try to criticise the club for a decision that was comprehensively proved to be the right one.

[BS4 on Tour...]

13 hours ago, Bri Stool City said:

Should have gone during our record breaking winless streak, trouble is when he does eventually go I wont be holding out much hope of someone much different coming in, after no doubt his 2 sidekicks taking over.

Can I ask LJ happy 4 now fans; Do you really believe he has what it takes to repeat what the likes of Brighton/Huddersfield etc have done, move us up a division (even for a season or 2) anytime soon or are you happy for us to stay just where we are selling off our best players and constantly rebuilding.......and going NO-WHERE?

I was bleating on here that we should have approached Chris Hughton when we was dumped by Newcastle and before Brum snapped him up....but I have to admit he’s actually done better than I thought he would as manager at B&HA - we ain’t got a chance of getting a manager like that....but we would have had a decent opportunity back then....

[Guest]

19 hours ago, Bar BS3 said:

His job is safe because he’s doing ok. He buys in to the plan and SL trusts him. There aren’t many other managers that fit that criteria. 

He didn’t get the sack during our bad run, because SL had faith he could turn things around - and he was right. 

Make no mistake (as others seem to like to do) if LJ gets to a point where SL loses faith and trust in him to achieve what he has planned, then LJ will be replaced. 

Likely withsomeone internal, who also buys into what’s going on, rather than an outsider, who is used to changing jobs every 2 seasons. 

It isn’t the path to overnight success, as some seem so desperate for, but it’s a sound basis for stability and steady progression.

Lets not forget that it’s been a long time since we’ve been an established championship side. That in itself is major progress. Even under GJ, the near success was one season really, after which we dropped and dropped, until being relegated and because there was no structure, we struggled in L1 initially. 

If it takes a few years to genuinely compete and challenge for promotion, then so be it. 

We are currently just one win away from the play off places, yet some people don’t see that as progress, despite probably watching us for most of their lives either in League one, or struggling to stay in the championship, with no real plan or structure.

Patience is needed. I know that’s hard and I know we’ve all been patient for far too long, but this is a new era, only really 2/3 years in to a new long term project. 

Too much is invested now and SL won’t hesitate to change things if he loses faith in people’s ability to deliver. 

Why didn't we invest in proven talent last xmas window when we were in a great position to move forward we didn't, in fact a few months later we sold our best players and other first teamers, knocked what we had already down and now start again? we are currently in an elevated position and have got lucky in a few games.

Fammy is not a goalsoring machine that  many hoped he would be and our midfield and defence is weak and lacks cover....we have a long way to go...and when/if we get there we no doubt will knock it down and start "building again" we are going no-where anytime soon...sorry.

[Bar BS3]

30 minutes ago, Bri Stool City said:

Why didn't we invest in proven talent last xmas window when we were in a great position to move forward we didn't, in fact a few months later we sold our best players and other first teamers, knocked what we had already down and now start again? we are currently in an elevated position and have got lucky in a few games.

Fammy is not a goalsoring machine that  many hoped he would be and our midfield and defence is weak and lacks cover....we have a long way to go...and when/if we get there we no doubt will knock it down and start "building again" we are going no-where anytime soon...sorry.

Don’t most clubs who have a decent season, without getting promoted, always run the risk of players being poached..?

It’s a myth that we didn’t TRY to improve in January. It just didn’t work out well. Diony was a waste of space but a punt with the potential of becoming our record signing had it worked out. Plus one of Liverpool’s highly rated youngsters, with Championship experience. 

Developing players, selling them and replacing them is vital until we benefit from Premier league riches. 

 

[Fuber]

At the end of the day a key regard to being a football manager is to have some skill or knack of getting consistant results. 

LJ has shown he can set up a team. And motivate them in pre-season. Points for him.

However, his man management, recruitment, in-game tactics and subs, general motivational skills mid season, persistence with 442?

I cant be the only person who quite rightly guessed O'Dowda and Watkins to be subbed on against Wednesday.

Good, perhaps great coach. But that isn't all you need to be a manager. If that was the case Milen wouldve succeeded.

[Alessandro]

On 09/10/2018 at 19:26, bcfcredandwhite said:

I stand to be corrected here - can someone list out all the ins and outs and explain how we have made a loss during LJs tenure?

we’ve certainly had some duds, but Reid (£10m), Kodjia (£14m) are big incomes - plus Flint at £8m, Maggers (£2m) that’s quite a lot - has LJ really blown more than £34m?

Hang on mate, don’t ruin the ‘urban myth’ that LJ has spent, sorry wasted, £40m on new players.

 

(And that we haven’t made more than £40m back in players sold....)

[Sturny]

55 minutes ago, Alessandro said:

Hang on mate, don’t ruin the ‘urban myth’ that LJ has spent, sorry wasted, £40m on new players.

 

(And that we haven’t made more than £40m back in players sold....)

40m is definitely an exaggeration. That being said, this season is the only decent transfer profit he's made (https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/bristol-city/transfers/verein/698/plus/0?saison_id=2018&pos=&detailpos=&w_s=) 

But what a juicy profit that is.

Obviously we don't know the sign on fees we've given players, so those seasons of loss could be slightly different. 

 

[Bristol Oil Services]

15 hours ago, Barry Sheene said:

Well my opinion is based on the fact that other manager in the Lansdown era who have gone on bad runs have had the door shown to them. 

You are right I cannot say for certain if he will lose his job as you don't know if he will stay in the job.

My point to the other poster is that I believe his position is being ring fenced purely because Mr Lansdown has not shown any other of his appointments the same patience.

He has given LJ more - more time, more faith, more wriggle-room, more money to spend than any previous City manager - you are right, but in return LJ has given back:

▪ a higher finish in the Championship in three consecutive seasons  

▪ a semi-final in a major cup competition 

▪ a path into the first team for kids from the academy

▪ an adherence to the club's transfer policy

▪ a presentable, positive and "user-friendly" public face for the club.

▪ and a silk purse out of a bit of pig's ear in Bobby Reid 

Now, holes can be picked in some of the above and other parts of LJ's performance here - such as recruitment, although we cannot be sure to what degree he is responsible for this; and these winless runs, amongst other things - but in my experience, if you deliver year on year improvement (league position), a lovely bonus and surprise leading to huge and positive national media exposure (the cup run), a chirpy, optimistic, "can-do" public face, and do a bit of a Cinderella job on a long-term employee who nobody else knew quite what to do with (and in so doing, turning a whacking profit) and you generally do as your boss asks (transfer policy, using the kids etc) as discussed in your job interview, then your boss does tend to cut you some slack and like having you around! 

If Cotts had just filled the bench with academy kids, if SO'D had just answered that stupid question ("are you up for the fight?" SO'D: "Yes.") and cracked a few jokes, if if if etc etc etc I think they might well have been given longer.

SL has said of LJ that "his heart's in it," ie, in Bristol City. And it is obvious there is mutual trust. Previously, SL has not had, or felt this, with his head coach/manager; there are plenty of players whose heart is not in Bristol City, it must be very welcome to have a head coach who genuinely feels for this club. 

 

 

[Alessandro]

1 hour ago, Sturny said:

40m is definitely an exaggeration. That being said, this season is the only decent transfer profit he's made (https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/bristol-city/transfers/verein/698/plus/0?saison_id=2018&pos=&detailpos=&w_s=) 

But what a juicy profit that is.

Obviously we don't know the sign on fees we've given players, so those seasons of loss could be slightly different. 

 

I personally feel the urban myth “£40m spent” argument is over simplified and over used.

Yes, the players sold for big figures may not have been ‘his’ signings, but it was his coaching that helped make those players worth that and his team that gave the showcase to perform, be scouted and bought.

I see people are now saying that we have only one ‘saleable’ asset in the squad now in Kelly? 

Well firstly, not EVERY player signed is signed to add value and be sold on. Take Watkins, who I don’t think for one second we bought to add value to. He has come in to do a job for the squad.

But let’s not forget Eliasson was a ‘write off’ last season. O’Dowda’s is OTIB’s new ‘write off’ this season - I wouldn’t be surprised to see him come back and prove some people wrong again.

[Davefevs]

6 hours ago, Alessandro said:

I personally feel the urban myth “£40m spent” argument is over simplified and over used.

Yes, the players sold for big figures may not have been ‘his’ signings, but it was his coaching that helped make those players worth that and his team that gave the showcase to perform, be scouted and bought.

I see people are now saying that we have only one ‘saleable’ asset in the squad now in Kelly? 

Well firstly, not EVERY player signed is signed to add value and be sold on. Take Watkins, who I don’t think for one second we bought to add value to. He has come in to do a job for the squad.

But let’s not forget Eliasson was a ‘write off’ last season. O’Dowda’s is OTIB’s new ‘write off’ this season - I wouldn’t be surprised to see him come back and prove some people wrong again.

Glad you added this detail to your earlier response.

Its obviously gonna take a manager a bit of time to see the profit or loss of his own recruitment, because the players he’s brought in have to leave for it to be evaluated.

That too is simplistic, because although Reid wasn’t “his”, LJ was the one who converted him from a £250-500k (debate/discuss) midfielder to a £9m striker....so I would give him that....and fair play, that buys him allowance of some duds too.

Having said that, if we take this moment in time, would the following players pay LJ back a dividend?

• Diedhiou - £5.3m - dunno, tough one to start with.  Probably, just about!
• Baker - £3.5m - unlikely
• Webster - £3.5m + addons - yep
• Weimann - £2m - yep
• Eliasson - £1.8m - might do, but if a profit, a fairly small one
• O’Dowda - £1.2m - Yes, RoI International, But not as much as we might expect

Lets not forget Mags, who became an established international here, didn’t go for much more than we paid.  Suggests we overpaid for him.  Engvall, well documented!

I think it shows how valuations flex from time to time.  Baker at start of season would’ve been a profit.  Diedhiou too.  But form and position of club affects value.

We are not in a difficult financial position because of Flint, Reid and Bryan....but who is our next big-sell that keeps the wolf from the door?

1. Kelly

Thats it in my book.

O’Dowda and Brownhill might go for nice sums, but nowhere near Kelly or the 3 who went in the summer.  Not enough to recoup another £18m loss, like we had to this summer.

This is the balancing act that we need to understand.  Our future assets are not as sellable as the ones we had at the end of last season.  The conveyor belt is not as plenty.  That is a worry.

 

 

[BobBobSuperBob]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

Glad you added this detail to your earlier response.

Its obviously gonna take a manager a bit of time to see the profit or loss of his own recruitment, because the players he’s brought in have to leave for it to be evaluated.

That too is simplistic, because although Reid wasn’t “his”, LJ was the one who converted him from a £250-500k (debate/discuss) midfielder to a £9m striker....so I would give him that....and fair play, that buys him allowance of some duds too.

Having said that, if we take this moment in time, would the following players pay LJ back a dividend?

• Diedhiou - £5.3m - dunno, tough one to start with.  Probably, just about!
• Baker - £3.5m - unlikely
• Webster - £3.5m + addons - yep
• Weimann - £2m - yep
• Eliasson - £1.8m - might do, but if a profit, a fairly small one
• O’Dowda - £1.2m - Yes, RoI International, But not as much as we might expect

Lets not forget Mags, who became an established international here, didn’t go for much more than we paid.  Suggests we overpaid for him.  Engvall, well documented!

I think it shows how valuations flex from time to time.  Baker at start of season would’ve been a profit.  Diedhiou too.  But form and position of club affects value.

We are not in a difficult financial position because of Flint, Reid and Bryan....but who is our next big-sell that keeps the wolf from the door?

1. Kelly

Thats it in my book.

O’Dowda and Brownhill might go for nice sums, but nowhere near Kelly or the 3 who went in the summer.  Not enough to recoup another £18m loss, like we had to this summer.

This is the balancing act that we need to understand.  Our future assets are not as sellable as the ones we had at the end of last season.  The conveyor belt is not as plenty.  That is a worry.

 

 

Dave -  

 

Hunt ?

Taylor Moore ?

And COD soon OOC - would you expect him to sign a new one ?

Brownhill as he was comp only would make a profit

Paterson - Maybe a small one or break even ?

 

[Davefevs]

3 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

Dave -  

Yeah, didn’t do everyone.

 

Hunt ? Too early to judge, but probably loss

Taylor Moore ? Missed him because my spreadsheet was filtered - loss

And COD soon OOC - would you expect him to sign a new one ? You’re on form....mmm....loss obviously if he doesn’t sign.

Brownhill as he was comp only would make a profit yep, definite profit...reckon we would get £3m for him....you may disagree!

Paterson - Maybe a small one or break even ? Break even, because they’d need to pay his wages too, having just signed a new deal.

 

 

At this moment in time, it’s not looking great, bearing in mind the strategy to buy > develop > improve > sell at top market price.