Michelle Owen - Unity not Negativity

[JBFC II]

4 hours ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

We won’t hover on  the All time record run of defeats in our entire history But

Here’s a FACT for you

 

Since January 1st

37 Games

8 wins

15 defeats

14 draws

Never quite understood people going back to January, you'd be just as well off going over the whole of last season. 

Since the beginning of last season

58 games played 

21 wins

20 draws

17 defeats. 

All of a sudden it doesn't look so bad. 

However that's all pointless, currently we are 13th with 4 wins, draws and defeats. Meaning we are bang on mid table really. 

I'm no happy clapper, and I think the time may be right to look for someone to take the club forward but LJ has done a hell of a lot to progress the club from embeing a league one club both on and off the pitch to being a solid championship club, so he should be applauded for that 

[SStandUp]

1 hour ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

Np Dave

Was simply thinking , irrelevant of recruitment price - 

Where the funds are coming from to allow us to

a) Recruit / replace 

and

b) Reduce shortfalls elsewhere

Dont See it myself atm ......and SL will be digging deep again ...... but that’s not the plan is it ....

All this "where is our next £25m coming from" is proving my point precisely.

We haven't got a strong squad. We've got an average one. Hence sometimes we play badly, sometimes we play well and hence we are mid table. 

So thank you for bringing our lack of playing squad quality to the attention of this forum. It's the main reason we are where we are. Not because of the manager. 

"But Johnson recruits players" - yes he has a say. 

But he doesn't have a say on how much we spend. Sold Bobby for £10m and we could only afford a £2m replacement. That's an absolute farce.

Lets face it, I'm sure, if given the option, LJ would rather have £10m to spend and I'm sure we would have bought someone else in rather than Weinmann. But that wasn't an option, and that's one of the reasons the club is in limbo on the pitch. 

If you can't aknowledge that the off the field business is the main reason we aren't progressing rapidly, or we aren't playing teams off the park every week, then it's ridiculous.

As I've said previously, take Hazard, Kante, Alonso (Chelsea 3 better players) away from Chelsea - would you expect them to better or worse.

Take Reid, Bryan and flint (3 of city's best players) away from city - do you honestly expect us to be getting better and progressing. 

You can talk about losing streaks, performance inconsistency all you like (I agree with these points), the reason we aren't progressing on the pitch is because we are selling our best players, replacing them with players that aren't as good, in the hope they get better and we can sell them for a profit.

Im not complaining about that, I trust Lansdown knows what's best for this club as a self made billionaire and businessmen. 

But what I do object to is fans gunning for the manager, when there are quite obvious reasons (other than Johnson) that we find ourselves in the position we are.

End of story.

@Davefevs

[JBFC II]

31 minutes ago, stephenkibby. said:

You think were showing mid table form?  Hope  your right.

I think we will be flirting with the bottom six by Christmas.

 

4 wins 4 draws 4 defeats leaving us 13th. 

Sounds pretty mid table to me

[SStandUp]

31 minutes ago, Moments of Pleasure said:

The irony is that, whilst appealing for "unity" and criticising what she sees as "negativity," in 11 paragraphs the woman from Sky spends almost half her time (5/11 paragraphs) writing about a handful of fans close to where she was sat, and the verbal diarrhea of Twitter (which may or may not be people that go to games, or indeed may or may not be City fans), when she could have chosen to write about S82 that offered vocal encouragement, and the dear old happy-clappers that stay behind even after defeats and applaud the team off. She could, also, have found many grounded, reasonable opinions on City on Twitter,  if she had wanted to. They are out there, as they are on here.

She was absorbed by some negativity of a very small section of our support, who themselves were absorbed by the current failings of FD.

How many paragraphs has she knocked out on the 300 that went to Rotherham and got behind the team?

I'm United with the boards vision, with the manager and with the players. So it's not ironic at all. 

The LJ out brigade seem to think the club is entilted to much more. That's we are in an unjustified position. Which isn't the case and why many are bemused by the negativity. 

Some of the stuff written on here is like listening to villa fans. A sense of entitlement and that we are worth more than what we're currently being offered. 

Absolute joke.

[SStandUp]

5 minutes ago, JBFC II said:

4 wins 4 draws 4 defeats leaving us 13th. 

Sounds pretty mid table to me

That's what I mean, some of the people fail to see what's in front of them, because they'd rather put a negative spin on everything, so they can call for LJ's head. 

Strange strange approach to supporting a team 

[Davefevs]

12 minutes ago, ForeverRes said:

When we first signed flint did you think he was gunna be worst £6m ... webster might be

Webster - far more accomplished CB at 23 than Flint was and cost us 10 times as much as a result, possibly 25 times as much if he reaches the terms of his add-ons.  If we sell him for £6m, that might be a loss!  

I’d much prefer if you compared Flint to Taylor Moore. Flint was still at Alfreton (alongside McFadzean) at Moore’s age (21)....and yet we want to write off Moore!

When we first saw Bobby did you think he's going to get us £10m .. someone like Eisa might.

Nope, but I at least saw value in extending his contracts unlike most on here.  I always thought he had value...possibly £0.5m prior to last season, but value all the same.  I give LJ a lot of credit for this one

And kelly...

Lot of debate on another thread about his value.

There are 3 names, who could potentially be that next £25m. But ofcourse you're not going to get that every year. 

When we sell Kelly it’ll all be profit.  When we sell Eisa and Webster, there's at least £5m to offset first, but I take your point, and if we perform better in our recruitment we shouldn’t need to sell on this scale every year, or even 3 years.  It should be a better conveyor belt...like Brentford.  Of course will this continue without Dean Smith, or is it more down to Matthew Benham?  I digress

It took 5 years for flint and Reid (since his first appearance) to be worth that. 

We are still not self-sustaining to wait 5 years to realise player values.

 

[Shtanley]

@BobBobSuperBob @Davefevs 

Not gonna quote you both.

I don't have a particularly good knowledge of the youth players if I'm honest. Used to watch all their games when they were playing at AG so was always seeing a lot of  Kelly, Vyner, Dowling and Morrell. Really atm I only know stuff from paying attention to those who do go, or having chat with those who are watching them out on loan (for the podcast). 

In regards to Kelly's price right now, I agree that £4m plus good sell ons in January would be fairly reasonable. Don't think we'll even reply to any offers for the rest of the season fwiw. Can see him becoming CB with Webster next season though and that's when I think the big clubs will start to do more than just sniff around him. IIRC Lascelles went to Newcastle for £7m (Which included Darlow but doubt Darlow was worth anywhere near half of the price), when he was 21. With inflation and the fact Kelly is left footed I don't see why a prem team wouldn't  pay £10m+ for him in a year or twos time if he progresses at the rate seemingly everyone thinks he will.

In regards to Kelly being sold in January, he won't be. I don't see his value declining at any point soon personally. Once he starts playing CB (Which I think he will do from the start of next season), his value will go up as naturally CB are worth more. 

In regards to "the next Kelly" coming through: Kelly is clearly a diamond. Most on here are saying he's the greatest young prospect we've ever had. So naturally Bob I don't think we're going to suddenly begin to see a long line of unbelievable future England first teamers come through. Personally, (I don't recall as far back as most city fans due to my age, but) I don't recall seeing so many Bristol City young players out on loan thriving in League football. George Dowling was as exciting as Kelly, (if not more exciting!), when he started coming through. He had the chance to go to some big clubs and remained here as he's die hard city. He had chances to go to League 1 and 2 clubs but chose Eastleigh so he could train with the first team still. I like the Pring fwiw. Vyner could definitely be a championship CB. Bit bemused by his Rotherham loan. 

I appreciate that (myself included) when you see a Jake Andrews or Opi Edwards getting goals on loan it's almost natural to think that they'll make it in the first team one day. I agree with you Rob that very few will establish themselves at championship level, but neither do most of the players that Championship clubs buy over the years!

I just feel generally that the young players (18-23?) we're buying/producing are the best selection I've seen. Seemingly each year our best youth prospects are sent out on loan to League clubs because they are ready for it and normally thrive. I can't recall this ever happening before the last few seasons. 

I just think soon we'll be in a position where our squad players can be made up of youngsters we've bought on the cheap or academy graduates. Mainly due to the improved (you may disagree) scouting and academy setup. We're always envious of Brentford being able to do the same. I think soon we'll see the occasional academy graduate become involved in the championship for us.

 

Feel free to question my optimism btw.

God I hate writing long posts over the internet, would rather meet for a pint. Either of you going Brentford?

 

[SStandUp]

14 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

 

Selling £25m and replacing with £9m is a step towards sustainability. It's not going to happen over night.

But it's all speculation anyway, and referencing players potential future worth isn't my point.

My point is we have an ok squad, nothing special, and we are in an ok position on the pitch, nothing special. 

Many of the players in our squad (Kelly, Brownhill, maybe Pack, Eliasson, O'dowda, Moore, Webster, Eisa) have been bought young and could be sold for a large profit (who knows!)

But back to my point, with this as our clear philosophy, I find in enraging that fans point the finger at Johnson first for no success or progression. When we are showing no progrpession in terms of our playing squad, and when we do show signs of progression in our playing squad, we sell. And we start the process again. 

[southvillekiddy]

5 hours ago, Robbored said:

Indeed.

SL has appointed LJ to implement and carry out his strategy of achieving both sustainability and stability. The former would be achieved if LJ gets us to the PL along with recruiting young players from other clubs, developing them into the best they can be and that’s why LJ has signed so many players - many of them go straight out on loan - it makes me smile when he gets criticised for doing just that. Some fans just don’t fully grasp what the SL strategy is...........

Hopefully they’ll become good enough to be a viable option for the match day squad. If not they can move on to a smaller club thereby retreaving some of the intial fee or maybe even making a profit.

Imv SL has set LJ a tough task. He wants to see progress season on season but all the while with the transfers hand brake half on.......

 

Just cannot see this ever happening at present for the following reasons:

I've said many times that in my view, despite what he may say,  SL places control over BCFC above achieving PL status. This has become his strategy. This is what many of us object to. 

With the appointment of LJ, SL continued his practice of hiring safe, non-threatening managers who are not qualified to achieve PL promotion. Hence we do not attract the calibre of player needed for SL's stated  aim. Instead we waste a lot of money buying many mediocre players in the hope that a percentage may come good.

The new disturbing pattern is that we sell off players who look like they might be able to play in the Premiership. Last season proved that these same players want to leave because we show insufficient ambition.

 

[Robbored]

4 hours ago, Sturny said:

Bob taking no survivors today 

What we need to remember about Bob is that he’s much more clued up than the rest of us are and that he can’t help patronising those who don’t have his Itk status on otib

[Davefevs]

35 minutes ago, ForeverRes said:

All this "where is our next £25m coming from" is proving my point precisely.

We haven't got a strong squad. We've got an average one. Hence sometimes we play badly, sometimes we play well and hence we are mid table. 

So thank you for bringing our lack of playing squad quality to the attention of this forum. It's the main reason we are where we are. Not because of the manager. 

"But Johnson recruits players" - yes he has a say. 

But he doesn't have a say on how much we spend. Sold Bobby for £10m and we could only afford a £2m replacement. That's an absolute farce.

Lets face it, I'm sure, if given the option, LJ would rather have £10m to spend and I'm sure we would have bought someone else in rather than Weinmann. But that wasn't an option, and that's one of the reasons the club is in limbo on the pitch. 

If you can't aknowledge that the off the field business is the main reason we aren't progressing rapidly, or we aren't playing teams off the park every week, then it's ridiculous.

As I've said previously, take Hazard, Kante, Alonso (Chelsea 3 better players) away from Chelsea - would you expect them to better or worse.

Take Reid, Bryan and flint (3 of city's best players) away from city - do you honestly expect us to be getting better and progressing. 

You can talk about losing streaks, performance inconsistency all you like (I agree with these points), the reason we aren't progressing on the pitch is because we are selling our best players, replacing them with players that aren't as good, in the hope they get better and we can sell them for a profit.

Im not complaining about that, I trust Lansdown knows what's best for this club as a self made billionaire and businessmen. 

But what I do object to is fans gunning for the manager, when there are quite obvious reasons (other than Johnson) that we find ourselves in the position we are.

End of story.

@Davefevs

I started to write a response to every para pretty much, but then I got to the bit in bold.

So what you’re really saying is that Johnson can’t deliver the success SL wants under the constraints he is imposing internally and externally (FFP)?  In effect it’s a no win situation for LJ and no-one should be gunning for him because no-one else, not even Pep could bring success.

You seem to think I’m anti-LJ.  I’ve met and spoke to him a couple of times, I like him, he’s passionate, he loves Bristol City.  I want him to succeed.  I didn’t even want SOD sacked!!!  I back every manager....I understand the financial constraints, but I will have an opinion, both positive and negative on what I see on the pitch, and relative to the non-pitch stuff.  SL himself has said we are now paying wages in the top half on the Champ!  He isn’t being dealt a shit hand financially, imho, it's now a far better hand than many in this division.  And he’s contributed to us being able to afford to bring in Weimann, Kalas on loan, etc...but he’s also contributed to some constraints imposed, by wasting money on the likes of Hegeker, Djúric, Engvall, etc.

[Davefevs]

14 minutes ago, Robbored said:

What we need to remember about Bob is that he’s much more clued up than the rest of us are and that he can’t help patronising those who don’t have his Itk status on otib

Hail Bob 

[Portland Bill]

5 hours ago, Robbored said:

Tactics maybe along with occasional signing that didn’t work out. You could say that about any manager.

Did you mention this to his Dad...................!

[Bazooka Joe]

5 hours ago, ForeverRes said:

Sometimes it's quite refreshing to get an outsides view on things. I found it quite interesting that she was quite mythed about the negativity surrounding the club. 

 

Yeh, it's definitely a myth,

[glen humphries]

5 hours ago, ForeverRes said:

I don't think I stated that anywhere. All I'm suggesting is people seemed to be so wrapped up in Johnson (wanting him to fail / wanting him to succeed) that they are not recognising the facts that we are becoming a stable championship club, we are providing some sustainability and there are several reasons why we might not be progressing as fast as fans want us to be..

I’m in the lj out camp but hand on heart I want him to succeed, I don’t know anybody who wants him to fail,is love it if he proved me wrong but just can’t see it happening, I’d even warm to him if the football was decent to watch but it’s not on the whole it’s poor.

[Red Army 75]

One thing I will tell you all . It’s windy as **** today. 

[glen humphries]

21 minutes ago, Portland Bill said:

Did you mention this to his Dad...................!

[glen humphries]

22 minutes ago, Portland Bill said:

Did you mention this to his Dad...................!

He was to busy driving the gas fans about.

[Cowshed]

5 hours ago, reddogkev said:

Don't forget that when you go to see City play now, they are competing in the tough 2nd tier of English Football - full of rich clubs desperate to reach the Premier League.

It doesn't matter who the manager is here, this league is a tough task for us, we would have the same exact struggles with Pep Guardiola in Charge.  We are improving each season, this is true, and this is happening with Lee Johnson as the manager.  Stability will help to improve us.  A new manager would possibly set the club back again and not guarantee anything that Lee could not promise.  I really feel LJ is our Eddie Howe and he can emulate the man.  Eddie Howe didn't get Bournemouth promoted over night, he was with the club for years of development before they were able to win promotion from the Championship.  As fans, we need patience and also to enjoy the chance to play and compete in the Championship.

Edit - On second thoughts, ok, maybe we wouldn't with Pep Guardiola, but certainly any other decent Championship manager!

Eddie Howe implemented a model of play at Bournemouth.

Pep Guardiola did likewise at Man City.

Lee Johnson has not at Bristol City.

[BobBobSuperBob]

1 hour ago, ForeverRes said:

All this "where is our next £25m coming from" is proving my point precisely.

We haven't got a strong squad. We've got an average one. Hence sometimes we play badly, sometimes we play well and hence we are mid table. 

So thank you for bringing our lack of playing squad quality to the attention of this forum. It's the main reason we are where we are. Not because of the manager. 

"But Johnson recruits players" - yes he has a say. 

But he doesn't have a say on how much we spend. Sold Bobby for £10m and we could only afford a £2m replacement. That's an absolute farce.

Lets face it, I'm sure, if given the option, LJ would rather have £10m to spend and I'm sure we would have bought someone else in rather than Weinmann. But that wasn't an option, and that's one of the reasons the club is in limbo on the pitch. 

If you can't aknowledge that the off the field business is the main reason we aren't progressing rapidly, or we aren't playing teams off the park every week, then it's ridiculous.

As I've said previously, take Hazard, Kante, Alonso (Chelsea 3 better players) away from Chelsea - would you expect them to better or worse.

Take Reid, Bryan and flint (3 of city's best players) away from city - do you honestly expect us to be getting better and progressing. 

You can talk about losing streaks, performance inconsistency all you like (I agree with these points), the reason we aren't progressing on the pitch is because we are selling our best players, replacing them with players that aren't as good, in the hope they get better and we can sell them for a profit.

Im not complaining about that, I trust Lansdown knows what's best for this club as a self made billionaire and businessmen. 

But what I do object to is fans gunning for the manager, when there are quite obvious reasons (other than Johnson) that we find ourselves in the position we are.

End of story.

@Davefevs

All very nice

Maybe , just as a starter he shouldn’t have blown proportions of his budget on poor and at times unnecessary , signings 

As recently as the summer Did we need to spend a million pounds on Watkins ?

He might give us some physicality but maybe , just maybe we needed to spend that money and acquire that physicality elsewhere

Just one  example

Excusing him (#SHOCK) for a poor squad after 50 + signings is what’s truly laughable

We won’t mention his selections or tactics / plan for now....

[Davefevs]

looking at the dice, must’ve played it after the Hull game!!

[Mike Hunt-Hertz]

1 hour ago, Robbored said:

What we need to remember about Bob is that he’s much more clued up than the rest of us are and that he can’t help patronising those who don’t have his Itk status on otib

Coming from you? Amazing.

 

[ChippenhamRed]

29 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

All very nice

Maybe , just as a starter he shouldn’t have blown proportions of his budget on poor and at times unnecessary , signings 

As recently as the summer Did we need to spend a million pounds on Watkins ?

He might give us some physicality but maybe , just maybe we needed to spend that money and acquire that physicality elsewhere

Just one  example

Excusing him (#SHOCK) for a poor squad after 50 + signings is what’s truly laughable

We won’t mention his selections or tactics / plan for now....

Your overt negativity and refusal to acknowledge positives does you no favours at times Bob, in fact in my eyes it weakens your argument.

To say the squad is “poor” is entirely subjective. So far this season it’s won as many as it’s lost, which suggests we’re bang average rather than poor - and that represents progress compared to where we were when LJ arrived. If the team is now competing further up the table than it was when LJ got here, whilst working with a moderate budget, then I’m not convinced the recruitment can have been that poor.

[AppyDAZE]

Does anyone actually know who Michelle Owen supports or have I missed this?

She is a football fan, and football fans support a team (or at least one)

Hey look, I happen to think Darrell Clarke is doing a stellar job, north of the river.

These things count when you give opinions about football.

We need to know who the woman supports.

[Major Isewater]

5 hours ago, ChippenhamRed said:

Why do so many people have to have such polar opinions?

Why is it beyond people to make a balanced assessment that recognises the positives and negatives of LJ’s reign?

There are clear negatives; inconsistent performances, hot and cold form, a substantial drop off since Christmas, some dubious recruitment, failure to capitalise on last season’s opportunity.

Yet there are positives; year-on-year league position improvement, success at steering us away from relegation when he first arrived, establishing us as mid table, some excellent football at times, some very good signings, a few top notch loans, a thrilling cup run.

I just don’t understand why people can’t at least attempt to recognise that it’s a mixed bag. It’s strange why people have to be so polar.

I believe many people were disappointed that we didn't have a bit longer to dream of certain golden futures with the likes of Colin, Rosler , Pearson ... and questioned whether indeed LJ was the best choice or did SL simply go for him as an easy option.

He had had his nose put out of shape by the two précédent coaches who didn't tow the line . 

 

[Natchfever]

16 minutes ago, AppyDAZE said:

Does anyone actually know who Michelle Owen supports or have I missed this?

She is a football fan, and football fans support a team (or at least one)

Hey look, I happen to think Darrell Clarke is doing a stellar job, north of the river.

These things count when you give opinions about football.

We need to know who the woman supports.

From west Wales so probably Man Utd.

[Sleepy1968]

17 minutes ago, AppyDAZE said:

Does anyone actually know who Michelle Owen supports or have I missed this?

She is a football fan, and football fans support a team (or at least one)

Hey look, I happen to think Darrell Clarke is doing a stellar job, north of the river.

These things count when you give opinions about football.

We need to know who the woman supports.

What i want in a professional sports broadcaster/journalist is someone who's unbiased, knowledgable and questioning when speaking about games involving my team. Having listened to several episodes of  'robins on the wire' podcast, I am convinced she is. All I've managed to work out so far is that she lives pretty locally and her other half might be a City fan.

[Mike Hunt-Hertz]

46 minutes ago, Mike Hunt-Hertz said:

Coming from you? Amazing.

 

I really must not bite, when the ubertroll comes a-fishing.

[Portland Bill]

1 hour ago, AppyDAZE said:

Does anyone actually know who Michelle Owen supports or have I missed this?

She is a football fan, and football fans support a team (or at least one)

Hey look, I happen to think Darrell Clarke is doing a stellar job, north of the river.

These things count when you give opinions about football.

We need to know who the woman supports.

I’ve only just realised we’re not talking about what Michael Owen said!!

Who is this woman, I’ve seriously never heard of her, and why is her opinion of any importance whatsoever?

[Cowshed]

1 hour ago, ChippenhamRed said:

Your overt negativity and refusal to acknowledge positives does you no favours at times Bob, in fact in my eyes it weakens your argument.

To say the squad is “poor” is entirely subjective. So far this season it’s won as many as it’s lost, which suggests we’re bang average rather than poor - and that represents progress compared to where we were when LJ arrived. If the team is now competing further up the table than it was when LJ got here, whilst working with a moderate budget, then I’m not convinced the recruitment can have been that poor.

If I am not mistaken Bobs argument is simple. Given the unprecedented support Mr Johnson has received progress in the form of points should be expected. Bobs point is regarding recruitment x playing style. The playing style is not being progressed as it is not being defined by its recruitment and development of a foundation of footballing principles.