Michelle Owen - Unity not Negativity

[AppyDAZE]

11 minutes ago, Portland Bill said:

I’ve only just realised we’re not talking about what Michael Owen said!!

Who is this woman, I’ve seriously never heard of her, and why is her opinion of any importance whatsoever?

Skysports reporter. Good looking. That's about it. 

 

[glen humphries]

1 hour ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

All very nice

Maybe , just as a starter he shouldn’t have blown proportions of his budget on poor and at times unnecessary , signings 

As recently as the summer Did we need to spend a million pounds on Watkins ?

He might give us some physicality but maybe , just maybe we needed to spend that money and acquire that physicality elsewhere

Just one  example

Excusing him (#SHOCK) for a poor squad after 50 + signings is what’s truly laughable

We won’t mention his selections or tactics / plan for now....

Regarding Watkins I’ve never seen professional footballer look so unlike a professional footballer, his touch and control are abysmal 

[AppyDAZE]

2 minutes ago, glen humphries said:

Regarding Watkins I’ve never seen professional footballer look so unlike a professional footballer, his touch and control are abysmal 

Nothing like a bit of exaggeration 

[glen humphries]

2 minutes ago, AppyDAZE said:

Nothing like a bit of exaggeration 

You rate him then ?

[AppyDAZE]

6 minutes ago, glen humphries said:

You rate him then ?

I don't think he's the worst football I've ever seen, no. So I call that an exaggeration. 

[glen humphries]

1 minute ago, AppyDAZE said:

I don't think he's the worst football I've ever seen, no. So I call that an exaggeration. 

In your opinion, and I didn’t say he’s the worst player I’ve ever seen just his technical ability is park standard 

[BobBobSuperBob]

2 hours ago, ChippenhamRed said:

Your overt negativity and refusal to acknowledge positives does you no favours at times Bob, in fact in my eyes it weakens your argument.

To say the squad is “poor” is entirely subjective. So far this season it’s won as many as it’s lost, which suggests we’re bang average rather than poor - and that represents progress compared to where we were when LJ arrived. If the team is now competing further up the table than it was when LJ got here, whilst working with a moderate budget, then I’m not convinced the recruitment can have been that poor.

If you read the thread of posts properly

 I was responding to the comments excusing Johnson as he didn’t have a good squad of players as the reason we aren’t looking so good

AsI pointed out he’s signed 50 plus players , so who’s to blame if that’s so

 

But if you think the money / budget has been well used .....and following any plan or ethos maybe you could explain it ....

Glad you are so easily impressed 

[ChippenhamRed]

45 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

If you read the thread of posts properly

 I was responding to the comments excusing Johnson as he didn’t have a good squad of players as the reason we aren’t looking so good

AsI pointed out he’s signed 50 plus players , so who’s to blame if that’s so

 

But if you think the money / budget has been well used .....and following any plan or ethos maybe you could explain it ....

Glad you are so easily impressed 

None of that is what I said. And there is still absolutely zero recognition of any positives.

A shame so many of your posts have such a patronising, almost arrogant tone too.

[BobBobSuperBob]

6 minutes ago, ChippenhamRed said:

None of that is what I said. And there is still absolutely zero recognition of any positives.

A shame so many of your posts have such a patronising, almost arrogant tone too.

Sorry .....’Zero recognition of any positives’.....

What are you on about and which positives do you refer.......

[ChippenhamRed]

11 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

Sorry .....’Zero recognition of any positives’.....

What are you on about and which positives do you refer.......

So we haven't finished higher in the league every year for the past four seasons then?

We haven't enjoyed any good football, any good results, or any exciting cup run at all?

We've lost all our games and everything is doom and gloom yeah?

To use your own words "if you read the thread of posts properly" you would see the positives (as well as the negatives) I listed earlier in the thread.

[BobBobSuperBob]

18 minutes ago, ChippenhamRed said:

So we haven't finished higher in the league every year for the past four seasons then?

Johnson to take the credit for SCs promotion ? - Wow that’s different

As for under Johnson... higher league placing each season....sounds impressive to a large degree....

18th (When you hail him for keeping us up despite us not being in relegation zone when he rode in)

17th (And 3pts off relegation)

13th

With the players he inherited and with the enormous backing he’s had ,I’m not overly wowed strangely

You clearly are

 

Quote

 

We haven't enjoyed any good football, any good results, or any exciting cup run at all?

The ONE good sustained spell of (Very good Tbf) football and the fun cup run occurred during the same period (When selection and way of playing were dictated by injury and availability)

A We've lost all our games and everything is doom and gloom yeah?

So as long as we don’t ‘lose all our games everything’s going well and in the right direction...yes ?

What a ridiculous thing to say

To use your own words "if you read my posts properly" you would see the positives (as well as the negatives) I listed earlier in the thread.

I’ll accept positives , when they are sensible positives, judged in full 

 

[RED4LIFE]

10 hours ago, Davefevs said:

You don’t have to be in the “Johnson Out” camp to be critical.  You paint it so black and white.

Be mindful that any manager is likely to have his faults, so criticism of LJ doesn’t mean Johnson Out.

Also, most posters accepted defeat at West Brom because of the performance....despite being 0-3, 1-4 at points in the game.  On the flip side, a draw at Rotherham but with a poor performance, was widely criticised.  If you want criticism based purely on results, then we should have 4 ecstatic post-match reactions on here, 4 ‘meh’ ones, and 4 meltdowns.  I think in the main OTIB has been pretty decent this season, recognising the mini-rebuild in the summer.  There will always be extreme outliers on both sides.  You’ve been on here long enough to scroll past those.

The other thing is that under LJ we’ve had runs of poor results (runs of good ones too), and the worry for many is that the current 5 games without a win will turn into 8, 9, 10.  If it does, then there will be questions internally at a City, let alone on here.

Go back to pre-season, what did lots of people post in terms of expectations?

A lot were along the lines of mid to top half of the the table....and no big losing / without a win runs....evidence that LJ really is learning.

However 12 (13 inc EFL Cup) games in, we have 3 runs already....one 4 game run without a win, one 4 game run of wins and one 5 game run without a win.

We all know the Championship is tough, anyone can beat anyone, but he has form, and you cannot ignore it.

Moving away from results, going back to para 3, I don’t think our performances have been consistent, either across a span of games, but even within games.  You cannot expect to dominate a game for 90 minutes, but I've not witnessed a series of games where we’ve been patchy in-game.  That’s not just poor, but good too.  Blackburn for example.  We started ok, then had a 15-20 minute spell where we gave every pass away, got caught in possession, etc.  Then played well second half.

The best performance was Swansea....that is the one game for me where we’ve played well all game, we were so in control all-90.  Those are a rarity though.

Your final sentence - 

I guess you mean ‘doesn’t fit their argument’?

I don’t want LJ Out, but SL will question the management team if they don’t deliver against targets.  We don’t know what they are. We hear SL talk top6, but we don’t know if that is media spin?  I would guess he wants progress and flirtation with the playoffs.  To that extent we are 3 points off if it, no great shakes at this stage of the season.  At the other end we are 7 points above relegation, and 5 points outside of the bottom 6.  That’s a reasonable, steady start all told.  I think most of us feel that way.

The big question is which direction to you see us going in?  Personally, from what I've seen performance wise (because typically over a season results will average out to reflect performances), I don’t think we’ll trouble the top 6, but I don’t see us getting involved in the other end too.  If that comes with mid-table, but players totally embedded to have a shot next season, I think it’s ok.  We shouldn’t complain about being mid-table, but we are no longer a fresh-Championship team either, I would say we are relatively established (as you can be at this level), and we certainly are no longer a bottom 6 club in terms of spending, so we can’t use that argument anymore.  We don’t have money to throw around either, but we are a mid-table team financially in terms of wage spend.

The next month or so will be very interesting.  We need to come out of the break refreshed and fighting.  Brentford away, followed by Hull and Stoke.  If we want to use the argument that we’ve played all the top teams in the main, we ought to be consistent with his we treat Hull (bottom) and Stoke (below us - just)....followed by Reading (away) and Preston (Home).  I don’t like predicting results in batches, but for the sake of this thread, getting 6-8 points will see us firmly mid/top half.  More than 8, we will be flirting with playoffs.  5 or less, we’ll be off the pace.

Rollercoaster ready?

Great post Dave. Sees both sides of the in/out argument and shows facts for both.

Personally,  I always thought we would struggle in our second season in the Championship (LJ's first full season) due to the amount of players we had to sign to get a normal sized squad.

Cotts (not entirely his fault but still) left us with a squad of players who weren't used to playing in the Championship and we were woefully short of depth. Because of this we had to sign lots of players to fill these gaps at short notice without having a pedigree behind us to attract quality. This means there was always going to be some players we signed who weren't  up to scratch.

Now, after a reasonably successful season last year (ignoring January onwards) in other clubs/players eyes, we have had to do the same again, but this time we can sign players who are championship quality or who have the potential to be that or greater.

Because of this, I personally feel this season is another of transition (but to a level higher) and I think we won't be troubling either end of the table and my expectations reflect that.

Next season we really should be looking to be top 6 upwards and if we don't that's when I will question if LJ has the minerals to take us forward but not until then due to the circumstances he has had to deal with up until now.

[ChippenhamRed]

6 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

 

I’ll accept positives , when they are sensible positives, judged in full 

 

It's basically pointless trying to debate with you Bob when you are so determined to find a negative angle on every positive aspect of Johnson's reign.

Like I said earlier in the thread, a bit of balance would be nice. We have steadily climbed the league ladder in recent years and LJ has been a significant part of that process. That's all I'm saying. Doesn't mean I'm "easily impressed", "overly wowed" or any of the other words you've tried to put in my mouth.

Oh and we finished 11th last year, not 13th.

I'll leave it there.

[BobBobSuperBob]

17 minutes ago, ChippenhamRed said:

It's basically pointless trying to debate with you Bob when you are so determined to find a negative angle on every positive aspect of Johnson's reign.

Like I said earlier in the thread, a bit of balance would be nice. We have steadily climbed the league ladder in recent years and LJ has been a significant part of that process. That's all I'm saying. Doesn't mean I'm "easily impressed", "overly wowed" or any of the other words you've tried to put in my mouth.

Oh and we finished 11th last year, not 13th.

I'll leave it there.

Negative...... - try proper evaluation 

Plenty of positive posts about Kelly, Weimann, Pack ......

Anyway I see we’ve come to.     no answer to points

No problem 

You did the same the other day

[Three Lions]

6 hours ago, ForeverRes said:

But back to my point, with this as our clear philosophy, I find in enraging that fans point the finger at Johnson first for no success or progression. When we are showing no progrpession in terms of our playing squad, and when we do show signs of progression in our playing squad, we sell. And we start the process again. 

What a lot of fans point to is Lee Johnsons changing football philosophy. Its quite a different thing. 

[SStandUp]

6 hours ago, Davefevs said:

I started to write a response to every para pretty much, but then I got to the bit in bold.

So what you’re really saying is that Johnson can’t deliver the success SL wants under the constraints he is imposing internally and externally (FFP)?  In effect it’s a no win situation for LJ and no-one should be gunning for him because no-one else, not even Pep could bring success.

You seem to think I’m anti-LJ.  I’ve met and spoke to him a couple of times, I like him, he’s passionate, he loves Bristol City.  I want him to succeed.  I didn’t even want SOD sacked!!!  I back every manager....I understand the financial constraints, but I will have an opinion, both positive and negative on what I see on the pitch, and relative to the non-pitch stuff.  SL himself has said we are now paying wages in the top half on the Champ!  He isn’t being dealt a shit hand financially, imho, it's now a far better hand than many in this division.  And he’s contributed to us being able to afford to bring in Weimann, Kalas on loan, etc...but he’s also contributed to some constraints imposed, by wasting money on the likes of Hegeker, Djúric, Engvall, etc.

No. What I'm saying is, no manager in the world would make a team better after having 3 of their best players sold.

[RumRed]

8 minutes ago, ForeverRes said:

No. What I'm saying is, no manager in the world would make a team better after having 3 of their best players sold.

I really don’t understand this argument, that’s how football works, so you plan for it.

3 further points

 

1. Hardly setting their respective leagues alight.

2. Buckled when push came to shove 

3. Did the lack of ambition in January cement in their minds they were going whatever, as BCFC wasn’t going to fulfill their ambitions.

 

It’s not necessarily a case that we flogged them for the cash but maybe because they wanted out.

 

You’re really oversimplifying IMO.

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, RED4LIFE said:

Great post Dave. Sees both sides of the in/out argument and shows facts for both.

Personally,  I always thought we would struggle in our second season in the Championship (LJ's first full season) due to the amount of players we had to sign to get a normal sized squad.

Cotts (not entirely his fault but still) left us with a squad of players who weren't used to playing in the Championship and we were woefully short of depth. Because of this we had to sign lots of players to fill these gaps at short notice without having a pedigree behind us to attract quality. This means there was always going to be some players we signed who weren't  up to scratch.

Now, after a reasonably successful season last year (ignoring January onwards) in other clubs/players eyes, we have had to do the same again, but this time we can sign players who are championship quality or who have the potential to be that or greater.

Because of this, I personally feel this season is another of transition (but to a level higher) and I think we won't be troubling either end of the table and my expectations reflect that.

Next season we really should be looking to be top 6 upwards and if we don't that's when I will question if LJ has the minerals to take us forward but not until then due to the circumstances he has had to deal with up until now.

Thanks....I am neither in or out.

Agree re Cotts leaving us thin, and also this season perhaps being another ‘funny’ evolving season, sat comfortably in mid-table.  I really didn’t expect Kelly to be in line to start 40+ games.  Thought he’d get his fair share, but would be sharing with McQueen (who ended up at Boro no less).  But when that didn’t happen (no idea if it ever was on in fairness), I thought Dasilva would share LB a bit more.  So Kelly has been a positive, although I'm still not going overboard about him...will need to improve going forward for example.

[Esmond Million's Bung]

12 hours ago, Robbored said:

You’re stating an opinion, not facts. 

 

 

He never mentioned facts, you did that.

[Full nelson]

[Cowshed]

24 minutes ago, ForeverRes said:

No. What I'm saying is, no manager in the world would make a team better after having 3 of their best players sold.

Football clubs are always in some form of transition. All clubs are selling clubs. That is how football works. There is nothing unexpected about losing your best players. You are missing the point being made about cohesion in playing style and recruitment. Recruiting to a model of play progresses the club, and better equips it to meet these challenges.

[BS4 on Tour...]

5 hours ago, Loon plage said:

From west Wales so probably Man Utd.

West Wales?! Michelle Owen was born in England, in Shrewsbury.....

[SStandUp]

25 minutes ago, RumRed said:

I really don’t understand this argument, that’s how football works, so you plan for it.

3 further points

 

1. Hardly setting their respective leagues alight.

2. Buckled when push came to shove 

3. Did the lack of ambition in January cement in their minds they were going whatever, as BCFC wasn’t going to fulfill their ambitions.

 

It’s not necessarily a case that we flogged them for the cash but maybe because they wanted out.

 

You’re really oversimplifying IMO.

I don't care about the reasons why they left. 

I'm just saying, we lost our 3 better players, progressing is made harder. Hence we're hardly setting the world alight.

Im comfortable with our off field strategy. For now, being a stable championship side means we can really nail all the off field stuff (academy infrastructure, training ground etc.) 

Because we aren't quite ready for prem yet. 

[SStandUp]

13 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

Football clubs are always in some form of transition. All clubs are selling clubs. That is how football works. There is nothing unexpected about losing your best players. You are missing the point being made about cohesion in playing style and recruitment. Recruiting to a model of play progresses the club, and better equips it to meet these challenges.

We sold £25m worth... we reinvested £9m. Either way we lost out on quality. 

100% agree all football clubs are continually evolving. But at the moment, we buy young/ cheapish, coach and nurture them, and when they become good players, we sell. And then we start the process again.

Im not complaining, I'm merely suggesting this is holding back any huge progression on the pitch. But we're going ok

[RED4LIFE]

59 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Thanks....I am neither in or out.

Agree re Cotts leaving us thin, and also this season perhaps being another ‘funny’ evolving season, sat comfortably in mid-table.  I really didn’t expect Kelly to be in line to start 40+ games.  Thought he’d get his fair share, but would be sharing with McQueen (who ended up at Boro no less).  But when that didn’t happen (no idea if it ever was on in fairness), I thought Dasilva would share LB a bit more.  So Kelly has been a positive, although I'm still not going overboard about him...will need to improve going forward for example.

Tbh, in the summer I always thought Kelly would get a lot of games this season as it always looked likely Bryan would be off considering his contract situation. I think LJ/MA were happy to sell JB (for the right price) because they knew LK was ready to come through. I still think Kelly will be a very good CH in the future but the fact he can also play LB now will stand him in good stead.

He looks like a footballer rather than a Flint type of player but also has a bit of steel about him. That seems to be the way football is going recently so will always be attractive to the better teams. Don't get me wrong, there will always be a place for an aggressive, ball winning defender too.

I think Dasilva was brought in as cover for Kelly but he also gives us options for different formations and opposition so will still get a decent amount of minutes. He looks technically good too.

Overall, I think we're in a stronger position to bring in what we need now rather than bringing in numbers as we were just a few seasons ago. 

[Cowshed]

42 minutes ago, ForeverRes said:

We sold £25m worth... we reinvested £9m. Either way we lost out on quality. 

100% agree all football clubs are continually evolving. But at the moment, we buy young/ cheapish, coach and nurture them, and when they become good players, we sell. And then we start the process again.

Im not complaining, I'm merely suggesting this is holding back any huge progression on the pitch. But we're going ok

You again missed the point regarding recruitment and a model of play.

In the link you posted the word identity is frequently mentioned. In essence identity, what the team is and its principles should be easily definable by fans.

Could you define what the playing identity of BCFC is seasons into Mr Johnson's tenure?

[BS4 on Tour...]

53 minutes ago, ForeverRes said:

But at the moment, we buy young/ cheapish, coach and nurture them, and when they become good players, we sell. And then we start the process again.

We buy young and nurture them? Djuric was 26 when he joined us, Pisano was 30 when he joined us, O’Neil joined us when he was 34, Hegeler joined us when he was 28, Fammy joined us when he was 24 and for £5.3m -“young/cheapish” - Patterson joined when he was 24, Baker was 24 when he joined us, Bailey Wright was 24 when he joined us, Taylor was 26 when he joined us, Weimann was nearly 27 when he joined us, Watkins was 27 when he joined us, Hunt was 27 when he joined us, Maenpaa was 33 when he joined us.....none of these are ‘young’ in football terms.....anyway, I was determined not to join in with this thread, especially when you started it with the views of a Sky Sports reporter...it must be gospel then! And then @BobBobSuperBob and @Davefevs basically ‘owned’ the thread and put forward arguments that were hard to argue with, no matter how hard you tried....but ‘we buy young/cheapish’ and then we ‘coach and nurture’ them?! What?! I guess I just had to comment, damn...

[WolfOfWestStreet]

I am so bored with Lee Johnson I'll be so relieved when he eventually goes. The atmosphere at home this season is so bad, you look around no one looks like they even care, no noise, hands in pockets, checking bets ... it's a morgue and has been for ages. 

No one is buzzing to watch another game managed by Lee Johnson, and if they are they aint showing it. We need a change we've gone stale.

[BobBobSuperBob]

6 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

You again missed the point regarding recruitment and a model of play.

In the link you posted the word identity is frequently mentioned. In essence identity, what the team is and its principles should be easily definable by fans.

Could you define what the playing identity of BCFC is seasons into Mr Johnson's tenure?

This should be good...........

[RedRock]

2 hours ago, ForeverRes said:

No. What I'm saying is, no manager in the world would make a team better after having 3 of their best players sold.

Didn’t Brentford lose a load of their best players... and then finish above us? Maybe wrong.

Accoding to loads on here Flint was a donkey, Bobby was a one season wonder and Joe was never a full back. On that basis it wouldn’t have taken much to improve on what left. Somehow, LJ seems to have achieved it, leaving us even more leaderless on the pitch, physically and mentally weaker and without anyone who offers an aerial goal threat.

To be fair we have got a lot of wingers now though, just a pity we have no one in the middle for them to cross to.