Will football eat itself ?

[Major Isewater]

When you think of football today do you think firstly of sport or money ?

Obscene amounts of money slosh about in the game putting average footballers into the millionaire bracket after signing one professional contract .

I'm saddened by the way football has gone with regards to the balance between sporting glory and the balance sheet .

 I am aware that for most professionals in the game, players , coaches etc that  career can be hazardous , an injury or a bad run of results can end it but how can it be acceptable to pay these sportsmen more in a week than most people earn in a year ? 

This great divide between mercenaries kicking a ball for a living and the real world has created a feeling of mistrust, manifested often by abuse on social media from both sides.

How many supporters really feel that their club actually belongs to them ? 

Clubs above the third division don't even need the supporters, who let's face it are often an embarrassing and expensive nuisance to the global brand image . 

Match days cost the equivalent of a week's food shopping, gone are the days when kids used their paper round money to buy the right to push the turnstile on a Saturday afternoon.

So, alienation, sanitised atmospheres, indifference render the essential link between your club and you which means you stop going to live matches . You stay at home perhaps to watch on the telly , if you can afford the multitude of monthly payments needed for each provider.

The bonds are getting weaker . 

I'm painting a rather bleak picture I 'm afraid but it's because I care , not only for the sport but also for my fellow fans who have a diminished experience of what it means to be a football supporter, following their club over land  and sea ( and Cardiff ) .

I'm afraid I'm still waiting for the bubble to burst , as it surely will for some unlucky club and their supporters. 

Can the genie be put back in the bottle ?

 I am encouraged by the law demanding certain numbers of home grown players in the matchday squad and certainly , at City , the work done in the community by the club but the fundamental issue is the cost of going to football fixed so high to keep the gravy train rolling for the players, staff and agents that for many it is simply not affordable.

 

[Maesknoll Red]

It’s certainly not the game/atmosphere that I grew up with, some will say it’s changed for the better, some will hanker after the good old days, I personally feel there is a lot more disconnect than 20+ years ago.  There is absolutely no doubt, Sky and the huge influx of cash has been the driver of this,  can it continue?  No idea, I guess things will adapt and evolve as they always do, could that see lower leagues reverting to part time or at least having to pay wages that reflect the real turnover and value of the clubs?

Certainly interesting times, I wouldn’t be at all surprised to see some sort of financial crisis in football in the future, although in the event of that,  I guess the top 6/8 clubs would just bugger off to a European super league and leave the rest of us to get back to some sort of reality.

[BigTone]

5 minutes ago, Maesknoll Red said:

Certainly interesting times, I wouldn’t be at all surprised to see some sort of financial crisis in football in the future, although in the event of that,  I guess the top 6/8 clubs would just bugger off to a European super league and leave the rest of us to get back to some sort of reality.

I've been saying the same myself for yonks and really hope it will happen sooner rather than later.

[Mtimmy11]

I think it has all ready begun.i don’t go any more but when I did last season ,I actually found it embarrassing to tell people how much my ticket cost

[reddogkev]

48 minutes ago, Mtimmy11 said:

I think it has all ready begun.i don’t go any more but when I did last season ,I actually found it embarrassing to tell people how much my ticket cost

Had that many times, it's a look of astonishment on people's faces when they hear the price of a match ticket ... almost disbelief. 

[exAtyeoMax]

I don't have such an emotional connection as I did, I guess it's me who has changed. (?) The defining moment/season for me was when Pembo was fired and SL (inadvertently/indirectly) told me to put up and shut up regarding Lee Johnson. I have no right as a supporter to have any other feelings than positive and supportive towards the club.

I lost a little bit of love for the club that season and even though I still go (STH) I definitely feel more distant towards it.

[downendcity]

3 hours ago, Major Isewater said:

When you think of football today do you think firstly of sport or money ?

Obscene amounts of money slosh about in the game putting average footballers into the millionaire bracket after signing one professional contract .

I'm saddened by the way football has gone with regards to the balance between sporting glory and the balance sheet .

 I am aware that for most professionals in the game, players , coaches etc that  career can be hazardous , an injury or a bad run of results can end it but how can it be acceptable to pay these sportsmen more in a week than most people earn in a year ? 

This great divide between mercenaries kicking a ball for a living and the real world has created a feeling of mistrust, manifested often by abuse on social media from both sides.

How many supporters really feel that their club actually belongs to them ? 

Clubs above the third division don't even need the supporters, who let's face it are often an embarrassing and expensive nuisance to the global brand image . 

Match days cost the equivalent of a week's food shopping, gone are the days when kids used their paper round money to buy the right to push the turnstile on a Saturday afternoon.

So, alienation, sanitised atmospheres, indifference render the essential link between your club and you which means you stop going to live matches . You stay at home perhaps to watch on the telly , if you can afford the multitude of monthly payments needed for each provider.

The bonds are getting weaker . 

I'm painting a rather bleak picture I 'm afraid but it's because I care , not only for the sport but also for my fellow fans who have a diminished experience of what it means to be a football supporter, following their club over land  and sea ( and Cardiff ) .

I'm afraid I'm still waiting for the bubble to burst , as it surely will for some unlucky club and their supporters. 

Can the genie be put back in the bottle ?

 I am encouraged by the law demanding certain numbers of home grown players in the matchday squad and certainly , at City , the work done in the community by the club but the fundamental issue is the cost of going to football fixed so high to keep the gravy train rolling for the players, staff and agents that for many it is simply not affordable.

 

Can't like this post enough Major!

There is a generation of fans now that has known nothing but the premier league, and for them this is the norm.

It is us older fans that have seen the game change during our lifetimes from the affordable, working mans' game - enjoyed with mates and into which generations of sons were inducted by their Dads' - into the money oriented plaything of the rich, driven by TV lucre and more interested in the well healed being able to enjoy a comfortable entertainment experience, than the thrill being provided by what happens on the pitch.

I might be called a "happy clapper " for this, but we should perhaps be thankful that the club is owned by a fan. For all the criticism he attracts I do think that SL genuinely has the interests of the club and it's fans at heart and this concern is for the long term. However, he cannot be King Canute and turn back the tide of financial reality, so has to ensure the club is as competitive as possible if it is to have a chance of competing ( which is what we fans want), so must apply solid commercial principles, as we start with a big disadvantage compared to many ( not all, I know) clubs at this level, as identified by the thread on the financial issues running at the moment. 

SL cannot put the genie back in the bottle, but I hope that at some point in the not too distant future he and his colleague owners/chairmen will get their collective heads together and decide enough is enough. If they all start putting the brakes on the exponential growth in wages by saying no to agents demands, then some sense of sense might return. The cynic in me is not holding my breath, as I suspect there will always be some owners prepared to do whatever it takes to "buy" success, especially if they think they can gain the slightest advantage over their rivals.

Otherwise, I fear it will take the collapse of a big club ( please let it be Villa!) for football to come to it's senses. 

 

[WhistleHappy]

That's the way to do it.... ! 

If pumpkins can.... Football Can!   

[Judda]

12 hours ago, Major Isewater said:

When you think of football today do you think firstly of sport or money ?

Obscene amounts of money slosh about in the game putting average footballers into the millionaire bracket after signing one professional contract .

I'm saddened by the way football has gone with regards to the balance between sporting glory and the balance sheet .

 I am aware that for most professionals in the game, players , coaches etc that  career can be hazardous , an injury or a bad run of results can end it but how can it be acceptable to pay these sportsmen more in a week than most people earn in a year ? 

This great divide between mercenaries kicking a ball for a living and the real world has created a feeling of mistrust, manifested often by abuse on social media from both sides.

How many supporters really feel that their club actually belongs to them ? 

Clubs above the third division don't even need the supporters, who let's face it are often an embarrassing and expensive nuisance to the global brand image . 

Match days cost the equivalent of a week's food shopping, gone are the days when kids used their paper round money to buy the right to push the turnstile on a Saturday afternoon.

So, alienation, sanitised atmospheres, indifference render the essential link between your club and you which means you stop going to live matches . You stay at home perhaps to watch on the telly , if you can afford the multitude of monthly payments needed for each provider.

The bonds are getting weaker . 

I'm painting a rather bleak picture I 'm afraid but it's because I care , not only for the sport but also for my fellow fans who have a diminished experience of what it means to be a football supporter, following their club over land  and sea ( and Cardiff ) .

I'm afraid I'm still waiting for the bubble to burst , as it surely will for some unlucky club and their supporters. 

Can the genie be put back in the bottle ?

 I am encouraged by the law demanding certain numbers of home grown players in the matchday squad and certainly , at City , the work done in the community by the club but the fundamental issue is the cost of going to football fixed so high to keep the gravy train rolling for the players, staff and agents that for many it is simply not affordable.

 

Has a homegrown law been put into place yet? I still see premiership teams full of overseas players.... i used to love seeing the likes of Zola, cantona, etc but there are definitely too many now... stifling the youngsters.

[Lack of Action Man]

12 hours ago, Major Isewater said:

 I am aware that for most professionals in the game, players , coaches etc that  career can be hazardous , an injury or a bad run of results can end it but how can it be acceptable to pay these sportsmen more in a week than most people earn in a year ? 

It just isn't Major. I just can't justify how Ronaldo or Messi deserve their earnings when we have scientists who have just enabled three men to walk again and will likely never see the fortunes of the elite level footballer. 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/2018/10/31/paralysed-walk-electrical-stimulation-regrows-damaged-nerves/

(The article in case anyone is interested).

 

[Judda]

1 minute ago, Judda said:

Has a homegrown law been put into place yet? I still see premiership teams full of overseas players.... i used to love seeing the likes of Zola, cantona, etc but there are definitely too many now... stifling the youngsters.

Like Foden as an example. Player of the tournament in a world cup winning side can't get into Manchester city's side...

[Lack of Action Man]

8 hours ago, exAtyeoMax said:

I don't have such an emotional connection as I did, I guess it's me who has changed. (?) The defining moment/season for me was when Pembo was fired and SL (inadvertently/indirectly) told me to put up and shut up regarding Lee Johnson. I have no right as a supporter to have any other feelings than positive and supportive towards the club.

I lost a little bit of love for the club that season and even though I still go (STH) I definitely feel more distant towards it.

It's sad that this has happened, and that you feel that way. Didn't realise any of this had occurred.

[RidgeRed]

I first watched City getting on for 60 years ago. I don't feel as connected to them these days but that's more a general disenchantment with football & the hype about it, especially the Prem. I never watch MOTD & will only take an interest in the Prem if City get there. So, maybe never. What I wonder is how a Chelsea or Arsenal fan who has followed them for 50-60 years feels about watching a team that may start with no English/British player on the field or maybe only one. Still their beloved Blues or Reds but without the likes of Chopper Harris, Osgood or Charlie George, Frank McLintock. Do they feel a real connection to their current players or do they pretend to whilst longing for the old days? 

[kevthered]

The main problem is there is too much money in football and agents and players are creaming the clubs... i don't think there is a player alive that is worth £5m but as long as clubs deal with these parasites it will continue. I no longer feel the club belongs to the supporters anymore, I am not a season ticket holder (member) but get to at least 10 games a season on average, 10 years ago I wouldn't miss a game at home and went to 5 or 6 away games a season...because how things (football in general)are sometimes i am not interested in watching football as much as once was.

[downendcity]

16 minutes ago, RidgeRed said:

I first watched City getting on for 60 years ago. I don't feel as connected to them these days but that's more a general disenchantment with football & the hype about it, especially the Prem. I never watch MOTD & will only take an interest in the Prem if City get there. So, maybe never. What I wonder is how a Chelsea or Arsenal fan who has followed them for 50-60 years feels about watching a team that may start with no English/British player on the field or maybe only one. Still their beloved Blues or Reds but without the likes of Chopper Harris, Osgood or Charlie George, Frank McLintock. Do they feel a real connection to their current players or do they pretend to whilst longing for the old days? 

 

10 minutes ago, kevthered said:

The main problem is there is too much money in football and agents and players are creaming the clubs... i don't think there is a player alive that is worth £5m but as long as clubs deal with these parasites it will continue. I no longer feel the club belongs to the supporters anymore, I am not a season ticket holder (member) but get to at least 10 games a season on average, 10 years ago I wouldn't miss a game at home and went to 5 or 6 away games a season...because how things (football in general)are sometimes i am not interested in watching football as much as once was.

Both are right in saying that the "disconnect" is not a Bristol City issue, but more that with football, and in particular the money in the game. I suspect that our disconnect is all the greater because we are getting towards the top end of football's pyramid.

It seems to me that at the lower end of football's pyramid there are loads of people associated with the club working very hard to get money into the game. When you get to the top end there are few ( agents)with no connection to the club,  working very hard to take as much money as possible out of the game, and that's the bit the really gets me angry and I think creates the biggest cause for fans disconnect.

 

[Erithacus]

Like the world's money markets, modern football runs on an unhealthy mixture of greed and fear. What I find extraordinary is the effect of so much money that has entered the game in my lifetime. From a time when the crowds were the main source of income to now when the crowds are almost listed as 'sundries' - or even unnecessary. The off-field game has undergone a revolution and is now far more business orientated than it ever was. Indeed, the way the world's billionaires seem to swarm around the leagues like they were prospecting for juicy businesses to control in a bizarre form of Monopoly. This does have its benefits, but also allows for a significant risk as well. If a club fails, it's not just the listable assets that will be hit. The loss will not be on a spreadsheet, but the pain of fans loosing their team will be beyond price.

What really worries me is the distinct possibility that this massive amount of cash swilling around will largely remain in the very top of the pyramid. This will cause a polarisation and eventually most of the clubs will be cut adrift to fend for themselves. You might like to call that evolution or you might want to call it destruction of the game we all grew up to love.

[stephenkibby.]

4 hours ago, Bri Stool City said:

Top of the prem is littered with foreign imports players/managers and backers the light in the tunnel is Bournemouth who currently sit 6th with more than their share of home grown talent.

Apart from the stadiums they play in the rest have little to nothing to do with the area and fans they are supposed to represent, multi million pound business`s who buy in the best players/managers from where-ever in the world; the only thing local are some of the fans.

Thank gawd I saw the 70`s and proper grounds/clubs/football.

The light in the tunnel (More like a candle) soon gets blown out. Clubs like Bournemouth upsetting the status quo is not welcome.

They are looked upon like a lower league side (Us,Burton) having a run in the league cup, Aw bless that's sweet, now get back where you belong and let the next side story team have their go.

Like a lot of us older fans have been waiting for it to implode for years. I have come to realise this is not going to happen in my lifetime.

I don't give a shit who wins the 1st division anymore (apart from manu,even find them hard to dislike now)  I take a lot more interest in the leagues below us than I do in the 1 above. Was always involved in local football, so that never wains.

So there you have it Bri Stool City, I'm with you thank God or my parents that I was around for football in the 70s,80s. I miss those days I sure as **** wont miss these.

Mind you, a 2/0 win at Reading might cheer me up

[pillred]

11 hours ago, Mtimmy11 said:

I think it has all ready begun.i don’t go any more but when I did last season ,I actually found it embarrassing to tell people how much my ticket cost

my wife bought tickets to see Mary Poppins at the hippodrome a few years back, when I asked her how much they had cost she looked a bit sheepish and admitted they were £175 for the pair, so I don't think £30 quid for a ticket is that bad but I know where you're coming from, I worked out with inflation compared to the price of admission to city in the 1970s a ticket today should be about £8, amazing but true, on average things are about 20 times more expensive than in 1972, it was about  40 pence to stand so football inflation has been very steep compared to a lot of things. 

[Mtimmy11]

My tickets were 36quid .the final straw came when I was chatting to the manager of windsor/slough Marriott hotel and he told me on a Friday evening football players would sit by the lifts and gamble 20 notes on what lift would open next

[ScottishRed]

14 hours ago, Bri Stool City said:

Top of the prem is littered with foreign imports players/managers and backers the light in the tunnel is Bournemouth who currently sit 6th with more than their share of home grown talent.

Apart from the stadiums they play in the rest have little to nothing to do with the area and fans they are supposed to represent, multi million pound business`s who buy in the best players/managers from where-ever in the world; the only thing local are some of the fans.

Thank gawd I saw the 70`s and proper grounds/clubs/football.

That will be Bournemouth with the billionaire Russian owner who completely blew FFP out of the water to get promoted and were punished by a fine that was loose change to a PL club.

They have a fair number of English players but they have also spent significant cash on transfers.

[Redcliffe1990]

This follows on from my post the other day on the same theme and this discussion cuts deep and to the heart of our relationship between club and supporter. 

We understand that in order to compete at a higher level clubs are required to over stretch themselves financially and above a safe operating baseline, hence losses across the board.

The nature of competition and market has increased players’ wages, that’s understandable, however it has been at levels beyond reason for years and years and at odds with declining real time wages and affordability for most people. The cost of living has increased beyond inflation in many areas of society, all resulting in distancing players from their status as representatives of our homes.

This coupled with the heightened commercialisation of the experience and the interwoven relationship with betting companies is symptomatic of a relationship which is largely one way and based on extraction. The frequency of ‘viewers’ has not facilitated fair pricing throughout but instead has been capitalised upon to the extent whereby this unhealthy baseline is necessitated in order to stay afloat, or rather to achieve relative success.

The cost to supporters in the shape of ticket pricing, merchandise and travel costs are high. The operating costs for the club are high, while the players’ market price and wage demands have been heavily inflated. All in pursuit of the Premier League dream, but at what cost?

Capital flows up and the broadcasters, global brands, betting companies, Saudi Princes, international investors are all extracting value out of your love of the game.

The game can now be a highly consumer based, non participatory institution and we must hold on to the fundamental values that we deem central to our relationship between club and supporter. The club is our representative and we participate in this theatre together.

[Undy English]

21 hours ago, BigTone said:

I've been saying the same myself for yonks and really hope it will happen sooner rather than later.

There comes a time when fans simply can't afford to pay/won't pay the prices clubs are asking to fund all of these obscene salaries. Things will then be forced to change.

Sadly there are so many 'superfans' out there who will pay whatever and still buy the replica kit.

[myol'man]

23 hours ago, Major Isewater said:

 gone are the days when kids used their paper round money to buy the right to push the turnstile on a Saturday afternoon.

 

 

It's the whole "health and safety, stranger danger, wrap them in cotton wool, snowflake" rules which stop kids spending their pocket money/paper round wages on going to football with their mates these days.

it's 'quid a kid' vs PNE but the kids have to be with an adult nowadays, and a lot of the parents can't afford the POTD prices, so the kids can't go.

I was going to home games with mates, on the bus from WsM from the age of 12

I went to my first away match, Swindon, on a football special train at 13 with not a parent in sight!

So great, have a quid-a-kid offer, but let them go with a few mates for a change.

[BigTone]

20 minutes ago, Undy English said:

There comes a time when fans simply can't afford to pay/won't pay the prices clubs are asking to fund all of these obscene salaries. Things will then be forced to change.

Sadly there are so many 'superfans' out there who will pay whatever and still buy the replica kit.

I read somewhere that the revenue raised from ticket sales is insignificant to most of the big clubs because of the money coming from TV rights etc.  In essence they can play in an empty stadium and still make millions.

[Undy English]

1 minute ago, BigTone said:

I read somewhere that the revenue raised from ticket sales is insignificant to most of the big clubs because of the money coming from TV rights etc.  In essence they can play in an empty stadium and still make millions.

Correct Tone, clubs like United publicly said they don't need a stadium full of fans to make money. For Championship clubs like ourselves however, different kettle of fish (our ticket sales don't even touch our wage bill). I think if a season ticket for City went to say 700/800 notes, I'd have to pack it in.

[Abraham Romanovich]

14 minutes ago, myol'man said:

It's the whole "health and safety, stranger danger, wrap them in cotton wool, snowflake" rules which stop kids spending their pocket money/paper round wages on going to football with their mates these days.

it's 'quid a kid' vs PNE but the kids have to be with an adult nowadays, and a lot of the parents can't afford the POTD prices, so the kids can't go.

I was going to home games with mates, on the bus from WsM from the age of 12

I went to my first away match, Swindon, on a football special train at 13 with not a parent in sight!

So great, have a quid-a-kid offer, but let them go with a few mates for a change.

Paper rounds were highly lucrative and much valued especially around Christmas.

Late 60's earned 15 shillings a week (75p).

To put it into perspective living in London I could go and watch Spurs (10p in the boys entrance travel to and from the ground about 5 miles away,buy a hot dog and a programme ) and have change from 5 shillings.

 

[Major Isewater]

22 minutes ago, myol'man said:

It's the whole "health and safety, stranger danger, wrap them in cotton wool, snowflake" rules which stop kids spending their pocket money/paper round wages on going to football with their mates these days.

it's 'quid a kid' vs PNE but the kids have to be with an adult nowadays, and a lot of the parents can't afford the POTD prices, so the kids can't go.

I was going to home games with mates, on the bus from WsM from the age of 12

I went to my first away match, Swindon, on a football special train at 13 with not a parent in sight!

So great, have a quid-a-kid offer, but let them go with a few mates for a change.

Too true. We were so lucky to grow up with the freedom to make our mistakes and learn from them.

As kids we played together without parents supervising every move . We recognised the " dirty old men " who loitered by the park .

We fooled them into treating us to ice-creams whilst maintaining a safe distance and woe betide any bloke who tried anything on ,

Many a sorry pervert got pelted with sticks and stones when he overstepped the mark .

We grew into confident individuals who knew how to live in the real world, filled with beauty and danger . 

I worry for today's youngsters who grow up under their Mother's pinnies and will be so vulnerable in society.

 

[myol'man]

14 minutes ago, Major Isewater said:

Too true. We were so lucky to grow up with the freedom to make our mistakes and learn from them.

As kids we played together without parents supervising every move . We recognised the " dirty old men " who loitered by the park .

We fooled them into treating us to ice-creams whilst maintaining a safe distance and woe betide any bloke who tried anything on ,

Many a sorry pervert got pelted with sticks and stones when he overstepped the mark .

We grew into confident individuals who knew how to live in the real world, filled with beauty and danger . 

I worry for today's youngsters who grow up under their Mother's pinnies and will be so vulnerable in society.

 

No names mentioned, but 'someone I know' wouldn't allow his kids aged 14, 12 and 10 to go out trick or treating, far too risky (and he lives in a posh part of Bristol)

They are not even allowed to play shoot em up video games, let alone play 'war' out in the streets using rocks as hand grenades!

And the thought of them even going down the local shop on their own, let alone a football match? Noooooooooo.

Sorry, I've gone off topic slightly, but they have to start going to football at a young age to get the bug for life.

[BTRFTG]

9 hours ago, pillred said:

I worked out with inflation compared to the price of admission to city in the 1970s a ticket today should be about £8, amazing but true,

Except it isn't true.

£0.40 in 1972 would today set you back,

....wait for it........:

£5.40   

The remainder of your post is, of course, spot on....

 

 

[Eddie Hitler]

22 hours ago, Maesknoll Red said:

It’s certainly not the game/atmosphere that I grew up with, some will say it’s changed for the better, some will hanker after the good old days, I personally feel there is a lot more disconnect than 20+ years ago.  There is absolutely no doubt, Sky and the huge influx of cash has been the driver of this,  can it continue?  No idea, I guess things will adapt and evolve as they always do, could that see lower leagues reverting to part time or at least having to pay wages that reflect the real turnover and value of the clubs?

Certainly interesting times, I wouldn’t be at all surprised to see some sort of financial crisis in football in the future, although in the event of that,  I guess the top 6/8 clubs would just bugger off to a European super league and leave the rest of us to get back to some sort of reality.

That's the way that I would hope it would go.

The TV fans can continue to fund their variously-shirted franchise teams of international mercenaries whilst wearing their £80 coloured shirts.

The rest of football having then shrugged off that excrescence can go back to what it was prior to Sky money: The People's Game.