LJ In!!

[Cowshed]

2 hours ago, RedSkin said:

Play our own high pressing game and stop trying to set up to counter the opposition especially at home.

Keep instructions simple for players. Don't over coach.

Go with just Weiman up top.  Play O'Dowda, Eliasson wide to join him in attack. 

Play Walsh, Pack and Brownhill in the middle.

 

 

 

7 minutes ago, Trueredsupporte said:

City don't have a high pressing game.

If a forward player cannot constantly get to the ball within a given time scale a team can not adopt a high press efficiently.

Its DTI (defensive tactical intensity). Taylor and Weimann have like Bobby Reid before them have very high DTI's nines and tens out of ten. Famara Diedhiou is a six on a good day and … With respect to the player he does struggle away from the good days.

City will never have a consistently efficient high pressing team with this player in the team. 

 

 

[Mr Popodopolous]

7 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

 

If a forward player cannot constantly get to the ball within a given time scale a team can not adopt a high press efficiently.

Its DTI (defensive tactical intensity). Taylor and Weimann have like Bobby Reid before them have very high DTI's nines and tens out of ten. Famara Diedhiou is a six on a good day and … With respect to the player he does struggle away from the good days.

City will never have a consistently efficient high pressing team with this player in the team. 

 

 

Was an overarching impression I got, but you put it better than I would there- Diedhiou and pressing...not so good is how I'd have put it- I'd go with Taylor or Weimann up front personally, in a 4-3-3- one of them up front would make the system work so much better.

[southvillekiddy]

2 hours ago, Calculus said:

Agree, unfortunately. By the time you're bringing on a player because he's got a song you really have nothing left.

Don't think we need massive change in the squad, one or two additions maybe, but using the players we have better - quick movement and passing. A new mindset more than anything.

Not that anything will happen with the club being the vanity project that it has become. Coppell worked all this out and ran without compensation.

 

Hear, hear mate. Says eveything. Wish I could write as succinctly.

[Nibor]

3 hours ago, Davefevs said:

No, I haven’t changed my view, but making an assumption that he is going nowhere, what does he need to do between now and say, the end of the January window to stay in the job. 

There will always be a point that SL won’t tolerate. He obviously tolerates a lot more than most of us fans. 

Win games obviously. 

No more dire performances like Saturday (and others).

Cull a few players?  Who?

Select players on merit and do this in a consistent manner. 

What do you all think?

In my view he has to:

• Stop over thinking and trying to counter punch the opposition
• Pick the same back four and keeper every game unless injuries force a change
• Choose a style and encourage the team to impose it with only slight tweaks for home/away
• Play players in their preferred positions
• Make timely substitutions that have an impact on the game
• Stop waffling in interviews about abstract nonsense and take some personal responsibility for any shortcomings

AKA "the basics".

In reality he probably has a job at the end of January regardless.

[Natchfever]

3 hours ago, Davefevs said:

No, I haven’t changed my view, but making an assumption that he is going nowhere, what does he need to do between now and say, the end of the January window to stay in the job. 

There will always be a point that SL won’t tolerate. He obviously tolerates a lot more than most of us fans. 

Win games obviously. 

No more dire performances like Saturday (and others).

Cull a few players?  Who?

Select players on merit and do this in a consistent manner. 

What do you all think?

He needs to buy all the available match day tickets to ensure the gates don't drop below 20,000.

[Cowshed]

19 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Was an overarching impression I got, but you put it better than I would there- Diedhiou and pressing...not so good is how I'd have put it- I'd go with Taylor or Weimann up front personally, in a 4-3-3- one of them up front would make the system work so much better.

I can see lots of possibility in the squad for structured pressing in various forms. City have numerous fit, mobile and quick enough players to press quickly. Your suggestion is the most logical and simple to put in place.

This is a point I was making earlier about in possession and out. Lee Johnson can make a clear commitment to a organised defensive approach as a principle of how the team plays.

I would argue that is what the great coaches do. Liverpool and Man City are full of players who press and work hard. Its a principle … If you don't meet that in the system out of possession not only does the player not play they do not buy them in the first place.

 

[Snufflelufagus]

I would just like him to play to our own strengths. The problem though is that he does not know what they are or who is actually in his best team.

[italian dave]

3 hours ago, Coxy27 said:

It's amazing to think what a roller-coaster ride Johnson's time with us up to now has been, yet you would normally associate roller-coasters with fun and excitement, which ironically is something which has been sadly missing for large periods whilst he's been with us.

He has been on the brink before now, I was at Nottingham Forest away in January of last year (was that really 2017!? Crazy it seems like so long ago now), that was the straw that broke the camel's back for me at the time. I maintain my stance from that moment, which is that there's no other club in England that would have kept their manager after that match. He broke a record that was as old as the club itself, eight consecutive defeats, it is unthinkable really.

However, he won many people around, including myself, after that match with a reasonably solid improvement for the remainder of that season, and the terrific start and cup run last season. Last season's early highs, and Johnson's reputation, were then once again tarnished massively by the catastrophic downturn in form at the start of 2018. I considered the new season a clean slate, putting the bad end to last down to a burn-out of the players given injuries and the high energy style, amongst other excuses. I don't think 22 points from 17 games is a total disaster by any stretch, but the performances, especially recently, have been so so poor. We lost to a truly awful Sheffield Wednesday side, the loss at Reading, Saturday's game, the first half at Stoke... Even Hull looked like a more threatening team than us for large periods at our ground.

I think Johnson right now is on the brink even more so than that day in January 2017. It is strange to think that, when you consider that to an outsider, it would be easy to say things like "year on year improvement" and "is 13th place really that bad for Bristol City, what do you expect?". I think what it is, is a realisation that the faith that you place in your manager to be the one to turn things around, the one to galvanise the team, and the one that can build something you will enjoy and want to get behind is fading away.

So, to answer your question @Davefevs, I think all he needs to do to stay in the job is to win games. However, barring what would now seem like a miracle run into the playoffs and something remarkable happening, I think there are a very large number of fans that won't be won back, and for me that makes his position untenable.

Long story short; my faith in LJ has been as up and down as his team's form, but over the whole period he's been here, my deep down belief that he will achieve something here is now dieing away.

Really good post. I'm marginally further up the positivity scale than you are - principally because we've been here before (as you've said) and come back. Preston and Reading were awful, but Brentford and Swansea aren't that far away either. But well argued post and a relief from some of the knee jerk Johnson out stuff. 

My other worry remains - Johnson out isn't really an answer or a solution - all that does is leave us without a manger at all. Some of the Johnson out stuff on here reminds me a bit of Daily Mail front pages, really negative, lets moan about what's wrong, and find a scapegoat to blame, but very short on positive ways forward.  Who replaces him? Is our history of sacking managers at annual intervals any evidence that it works? Will we have another two years where all the old guard are moved on and the new manager's players brought in? What will happen in the meantime? 

[Always Believesham]

Unfortunately I think Johnson has backed himself into a corner where the returnees from injury have to hit the ground running. We also have to win a couple of games we don't expect to, especially if we're going to gift points to the likes of Reading. The second part involves creating more chances - that side were poor enough for an in form city to create 4 or 5 goals.

Having said that, a lot of the things suggested take a lot longer than 6-8 weeks to embed and Lansdown will have either laid down what he expects to see  by January or told Johnson he is happy that he is optimistic about his long term plan. There is also a massive difference between in form and out of form City these days, an inform City is both strong at the back and creative enough to make a number of chances. Out of form we are shakey at the back and reluctant to take any risks in the final third. This is Johnson's area and he has repeatedly failed to address this. He has made a rod for his own back in underestimating the size of the transition he is trying to take us through.

None of us have influence on SL, @italian dave sums up the mood nicely though - there is a lot to criticise right now but some of the criticism is without foundation or in spite of anything said in interviews. I have a problem with the contradictions that come out of the interviews (ie. "Walsh can only play in a 3", plays him in a 2), however, I cannot see who would be able to come in make a great difference to results. If we had won the games against Wednesday, Reading and Preston we would be joint second (3 games out of 17 could also suggest we are nearly 80% there). If we can continue to win games we don't expect to (Swansea, Brentford, Sheff Utd) then I would not be too concerned.

[chinapig]

4 hours ago, Cowshed said:

I can see lots of possibility in the squad for structured pressing in various forms. City have numerous fit, mobile and quick enough players to press quickly. Your suggestion is the most logical and simple to put in place.

This is a point I was making earlier about in possession and out. Lee Johnson can make a clear commitment to a organised defensive approach as a principle of how the team plays.

I would argue that is what the great coaches do. Liverpool and Man City are full of players who press and work hard. Its a principle … If you don't meet that in the system out of possession not only does the player not play they do not buy them in the first place.

 

Ruud Gullit on MOTD2 recently had some interesting things to say about the variations on 4-3-3 Guardiola and Klopp use.

Gullit sees 4-3-3 as the best and most flexible system, and you have pretty much echoed what he had to say about its advantages (for both defence and attack) and its execution, though I appreciate you do not refer to a formation in your post.

If LJ has a hotline to Pep he doesn't seem to be listening.

 

[Mr Popodopolous]

3 minutes ago, chinapig said:

Ruud Gullit on MOTD2 recently had some interesting things to say about the variations on 4-3-3 Guardiola and Klopp use.

Gullit sees 4-3-3 as the best and most flexible system, and you have pretty much echoed what he had to say about its advantages (for both defence and attack) and its execution, though I appreciate you do not refer to a formation in your post.

If LJ has a hotline to Pep he doesn't seem to be listening.

 

Indeed, been banging the drum for 4-3-3 for a while myself- agree with both you and Cowshed. 

It's not infallible though- at the weekend Barcelona 3-4 Betis and even more emphatically Atalanta 4-1 Inter. Both played a 4-3-3 in the case of the losing side. Whereas Atalanta played (a highly fluid I dare say) 3-4-3/3-4-2-1 and Betis played a (probably even more fluid than Atalanta's) 3-4-1-2, with one of their 2 being a traditional winger who has probably tbh reinvented himself called Joaquin- surprised he's still going tbh.What's more, both underdogs deserved to win.

What both winning sides- who are known as talented sides- had in common though was they had a Plan...and they stuck to it. There may be the odd game in which they (Atalanta) changed over 2 years or more  but by and large they stick/stuck to it over time. Again it can vary say 3-1-4-2 or 3-4-1-2 or even plain old 3-5-2 but it is within that template. Betis have been a bit more flexible, bu this season 3 at the back at all times. Can produce great football with that shape tbh- closer to home, just look at Sheffield United.

[Offside]

I think LJ will need to get back to basics with the team trying to play to a consistent pattern, with players passing and moving into space and actually sprinting, both with the ball and to get back to defend (I think has been covered on another thread). There seems to be a lack of teamwork at the moment and a lack of heart.

[chinapig]

11 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Indeed, been banging the drum for 4-3-3 for a while myself- agree with both you and Cowshed. 

It's not infallible though- at the weekend Barcelona 3-4 Betis and even more emphatically Atalanta 4-1 Inter. Both played a 4-3-3 in the case of the losing side. Whereas Atalanta played (a highly fluid I dare say) 3-4-3/3-4-2-1 and Betis played a (probably even more fluid than Atalanta's) 3-4-1-2, with one of their 2 being a traditional winger who has probably tbh reinvented himself called Joaquin- surprised he's still going tbh.What's more, both underdogs deserved to win.

What both winning sides- who are known as talented sides- had in common though was they had a Plan...and they stuck to it. There may be the odd game in which they (Atalanta) changed over 2 years or more  but by and large they stick/stuck to it over time. Again it can vary say 3-1-4-2 or 3-4-1-2 or even plain old 3-5-2 but it is within that template. Betis have been a bit more flexible, bu this season 3 at the back at all times. Can produce great football with that shape tbh- closer to home, just look at Sheffield United.

Of course it's all about execution whatever system you start with and there are variations on the theme of 4-3-3.To Atalanta I would add Wolves' own 3-4-3 for instance.

Atalanta are a great model for smaller clubs by the way. Any chance we could poach their entire management team I wonder? 

[Mr Popodopolous]

9 minutes ago, chinapig said:

Of course it's all about execution whatever system you start with and there are variations on the theme of 4-3-3.To Atalanta I would add Wolves' own 3-4-3 for instance.

Atalanta are a great model for smaller clubs by the way. Any chance we could poach their entire management team I wonder? 

Wolves of course, yep well remembered.

Their scouting network certainly- few others in a similarly overachieving boat too. If exempt financially from FFP, I'd happily have SL go and buy their scouting setup.

[PFree]

I have no problem losing when I feel the players have put a shift in and we have at least tried to attack, at home we have a coach afraid of losing and therefore who tries to just nullify the opposition rather than going out all guns blazing - like many fans, I am absolutely bored of negative, boring football and a coach with no plan A yet alone B...

[glen humphries]

2 minutes ago, PFree said:

I have no problem losing when I feel the players have put a shift in and we have at least tried to attack, at home we are have a coach afraid of losing and therefore who tries to just nullify the opposition rather than going out all guns blazing - like many fans, I am absolutely bored of negative, boring football and a coach with no plan A yet alone B...

Totally agree, think most fans can handle defeat if you can see the team really trying and playing decent football, for a long time now apart from the odd couple of decent games it’s been boring, myself like most work hard for our money and to pay top dollar to be sat there wishing for the final whistle to go is not good enough, Johnson out.

[Beni71]

@Davefevs seems like we are a team that rely on confidence. The losing streaks seem difficult to break when we hit them and I do question whether we have the players (or maybe mentality) to break these cycles. I look at the likes of Ben Pearson, horrible player imo, but a player you want in your team to break a losing run as you know he’s going to run himself into the ground (similar to Brownhill but a bit more streetwise).

LJ obviously sees the players in training and knows who is looking sharp but balance feels all wrong at the moment. Go back to pressing and passing and players that want the ball.

Baker dropped and stick to a back 4. We don’t have pace on the right to play wingbacks unless you play odowda there, but out of position.

in terms of players I’d like to see is Odowda, needs a decent run in the team to make his mark. Inconsistent at times but needs game time. Has pace and can stretch the game. 

Pack a good champ player when he has movement upfront or runners from deep but needs a rest. Walsh takes his place in a 2 in the middle. 

Needs Watkins back - does the ugly stuff and has a bit of Ben Pearson in him. 

Give Famara a rest and play Paterson as a 10 with a license to float. 

 

[glen humphries]

12 minutes ago, Beni71 said:

@Davefevs seems like we are a team that rely on confidence. The losing streaks seem difficult to break when we hit them and I do question whether we have the players (or maybe mentality) to break these cycles. I look at the likes of Ben Pearson, horrible player imo, but a player you want in your team to break a losing run as you know he’s going to run himself into the ground (similar to Brownhill but a bit more streetwise).

LJ obviously sees the players in training and knows who is looking sharp but balance feels all wrong at the moment. Go back to pressing and passing and players that want the ball.

Baker dropped and stick to a back 4. We don’t have pace on the right to play wingbacks unless you play odowda there, but out of position.

in terms of players I’d like to see is Odowda, needs a decent run in the team to make his mark. Inconsistent at times but needs game time. Has pace and can stretch the game. 

Pack a good champ player when he has movement upfront or runners from deep but needs a rest. Walsh takes his place in a 2 in the middle. 

Needs Watkins back - does the ugly stuff and has a bit of Ben Pearson in him. 

Give Famara a rest and play Paterson as a 10 with a license to float. 

 

Paterson has been very poor for a long time now , you should have to earn your place , and he’s done nothing to be in the squad let alone starting.

[Cowshed]

15 hours ago, chinapig said:

Ruud Gullit on MOTD2 recently had some interesting things to say about the variations on 4-3-3 Guardiola and Klopp use.

Gullit sees 4-3-3 as the best and most flexible system, and you have pretty much echoed what he had to say about its advantages (for both defence and attack) and its execution, though I appreciate you do not refer to a formation in your post.

If LJ has a hotline to Pep he doesn't seem to be listening.

 

If LJ has a hotline to Pep he doesn't seem to be listening … Or watching them very much. The team may change but its model of play does not, or very little. 

[bpexile]

On 12/11/2018 at 20:00, Kevin Brady said:

Where have you been? Half the problem is that he has been playing Walsh, Pack and Brownhill in the middle and they are being outplayed, overrun and out muscled in almost every phase of the game. Walsh is a tidy little player but he just doesn't have the physical presence. You are right with Eliasson and O'Dowda  

You can hardly say Walsh has had a fair run !

[Redrascal2]

What interests me is McCallister and Holden. What role do they play in turning out these substandard performances and the constant changes. Are they yes men or does their input affect LJ's decisions. I struggle to see how three people can sit down and plan the team/tactics/signings and get it so wrong.