Brian Clough on Steve Lansdown

[Boston Red]

"Len Shackleton left an entire page blank in his book, reserved for what he believed directors knew about football. If I'd had my way there would be a blank chapter in this book dedicated to the same subject. I have never understood why men with such poor knowledge, or no knowledge at all, insist they know about the game in general and the needs of management in particular. The vast majority of them knew nothing in my days as a player, nothing in my time as a manager, and the modern lot still know nothing today. Yet I continue to see them quoted in the newspapers and droning on in television interviews, trying to convince the public and themselves that they have the faintest idea of how football works. It makes my blood boil; it makes me want to put my foot through the television screen and I'd have done it long before now but I have a dodgy knee to look after. Football club chairmen and directors are still so barmy, so naive, so thick and so stubborn and yet so full of themselves that they continue to make stupid decisions when it comes to the appointment of a manager. That is one of the reasons why there is such a turnover in my industry, so many sackings, resignations and departures explained by that cosy little phrase 'by mutual agreement', which I have never understood for the life of me. Many of the casualties are the victims not only of their own failure - they are the victims of chairmen and directors who shouldn't have given them the job in the first place. 

I wondered about Stuart Gray being given the Southampton job when Glenn Hoddle went to Tottenham. I'm not sure what job Gray had with the club, whether he was coaching the reserves or helping out with the first team. What I do know is I don't think it sufficient to qualify him for the job of manager of a team in the English Premiership. He couldn't have been right for it in normal circumstances, because he had no experience to fall back on. When I heard young Gray had been made manager, it made no sense at all to me. He was a nice lad, I'm sure he still is, but wet behind the ears in management terms. Unless he was a genius so far undiscovered, he hadn't a prayer. Yet Southampton directors chucked all that responsibility into the lap of an untried manager. He didn't last long. He couldn't last long, but when he failed, why weren't serious questions asked of those who shoved Gray in at the deep end? Why weren't any of them held responsible? Why didn't any of them pay the price of losing his own position at the football club? Why? Because they rarely do. Football chairmen and directors at any club you care to look at are among the great survivors in life. "

                                                                                                                                                      Cloughie; Walking on Water. 2005

 

"Football club chairmen and directors are still so barmy, so naive, so thick and so stubborn and yet so full of themselves that they continue to make stupid decisions when it comes to the appointment of a manager. " Get ready for another Lansdown special, boys and girls. Think Dean Holden, Jamie Mcallister, or Michael Appleton.

What is so depressing about Lansdown is that he does not learn from his mistakes. Malchy Mackay got Cardiff to the Premier League. They were outside the relegation zone. But he clashed with Vincent Tan, and Tan sacked him. The Cardiff fans were shocked. Tan then appointed someone with no managerial experience, Ole Gunnar Solskjaer. It was a complete failure, and exactly the pattern that Brian Clough describes. But you know what? Vincent Tan learnt his lesson. He called Neil Warnock for interview. He said "I don't need to interview you. I want you to be Cardiff manager." Warnock swelled with pride and was desperate to do a good job for Tan. In that season he saved Cardiff from the drop. In his first full season, spending little money with an average side, Warnock won Cardiff automatic promotion. Even if they go down they now have parachute payments. But the point is that Vincent Tan learnt that appointing an inexperienced rookie does not work, and appointed someone with a track record of success. But Lansdown, despite appointing Gary Johnson and Steve Cotterill, reverted to type with Lee Johnson. Lee Johnson's record at Barnsley and Oldham was Win 1, Draw 1 Lose 1. That tells you he is not a great manager. "But he will have resources and backing at BCFC!!!" Yes, but the standard of opposition is higher. What is LJ's record at Bristol City? Wait for it.......................it is..........................(about) Win 1 Draw 1 Lose 1. The same. He is no better than when he started. The apathy towards LJ's appointment from the fans was NOT, as some here claim, a nasty vindictive personal vendetta. It was simply that we could see what Lansdown and Ashton could not see, or would not see, that there was no evidence LJ was a successful manager from his career to date. Lansdown's poor judgement about football managers is blighting this football club. But while Vincent Tan learnt his lesson, didn't appoint another rookie, and appointed someone with a track record of success, it remains to be seen whether Lansdown will do that. The appointments of Mcallister and Holden as assistants is the same old depressing Tinnion/Millen/Lee Johnson mistake all over again. What did Steve Lansdown say in the interview with Geoff Twentyman after John Pemberton left the club? "We've appointed Macca..........er................er.............I mean Jamie Mcallister." There you have it. Says it all. Jobs for the boys. And the appointments of Tinnion and Millen were so bad that since leaving BCFC, neither has even put himself forward for a manager's job. They know they are not up to it. They don't even want one. It's not that Tinnion and Millen were managers who failed for us. It is that they were not even managers at all!!!

It is most unlikely that Lansdown will appoint someone who has got a club promoted from the second tier, like Warnock, Holloway, Mcarthy, Bruce, or Allardyce. But even if he does, the set up at the club is so clogged up with managerial-speak nonsense, middling nothing-managers blocking swift decisions, and mediocre inertia that such a manager would either walk like Coppell or be unable to beat the system and fail here anyway. 

 

 

 

[ScottishRed]

Good post.

IF LJ goes anytime soon I am going big on Michael Appleton - written in the stars.

[swanker]

Brian Clough, my all time favourite manager. The bloke was touched by genius!

[marmite]

Good post indeed but if you're right ScottishRed then we're  forked.

[WarksRobin]

I think the Steve Coppell appointment still weighs on SL’s mind making when it comes to managers and is the main reason he will not go for a big name again

[Kid in the Riot]

37 minutes ago, Boston Red said:

It is most unlikely that Lansdown will appoint someone who has got a club promoted from the second tier, like Warnock, Holloway, Mcarthy, Bruce, or Allardyce. But even if he does, the set up at the club is so clogged up with managerial-speak nonsense, middling nothing-managers blocking swift decisions, and mediocre inertia that such a manager would either walk like Coppell or be unable to beat the system and fail here anyway. 

Correct. But a fair few of us have been saying this for years.

[NickJ]

50 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said:

Correct. But a fair few of us have been saying this for years.

Yes.

@Boston Red agree with what you say. The thing about Steve’s time is that we will never know if somebody else could have done better, but the one thing I do know is that if you exclude the money Steve has spent building himself a new stadium, he hasn’t put that much, relative to his wealth, into the playing side. 

I don’t really see the point of the owner being one of the richest chaps in the country unless he’s going to use that wealth to bankroll us into the Premiership, as other wealthy owners have done - Walker, Whelan, and so on. 

[Frenchay Red]

No doubt he loves the club, but an acquaintance of his told me SL dreads appointing football managers as he is worried that they will fail and therefore he will also be seen as failing.

Seems a somewhat insecure way of looking at the process.

GJ has been his only success.

Keith Dawe was instrumental in SC getting the job I believe.

[Mr Popodopolous]

44 minutes ago, NickJ said:

Yes.

@Boston Red agree with what you say. The thing about Steve’s time is that we will never know if somebody else could have done better, but the one thing I do know is that if you exclude the money Steve has spent building himself a new stadium, he hasn’t put that much, relative to his wealth, into the playing side. 

I don’t really see the point of the owner being one of the richest chaps in the country unless he’s going to use that wealth to bankroll us into the Premiership, as other wealthy owners have done - Walker, Whelan, and so on. 

• Clubs can lose £13m per season before exclusions.
• Some of said legitimate exclusions include infrastructure, stadia, youth academy and community- all areas in which we have invested.
• Average wage bill in Championship- before any other costs- is near enough 100% of turnover.

"But Bournemouth, but Swansea, but Wigan, but Blackburn and more I'm sure, Stoke, Hull maybe etc".

• Bournemouth-Flouted regs as well as brilliantly managed by Howe, but on the financial side the most that could happen was a hefty fine- there were a lot more loopholes in the system. These no longer exist. Not comparable.
• Swansea- had their Swansea way and moved to the Liberty at the right time. They didn't break the bank but thought outside the box from the latter days of Jackett onwards, to Martinez via Sousa culminating in Rodgers. All brought something to the table and their way ended when Laudrup left with their players in the summer he signed going and the American investors all signalled the death knell for their model. Now seem to be trying to rebuild it with Potter back in the Championship. Not comparable so far...
• Wigan- actually moved to JJB or DW Stadium or whatever they call it now quite a while ago- yes Whelan's money the main factor but you know Conferencing facilities and corporate ones that we have gained in recent times? They had quite a while ago, since late 90's when they moved in as it happens.
• Blackburn- Laughable comparison, they were zero- zero- checks and balances or regs financially in football then. Walker couldn't happen today, Whelan couldn't happen today, assorted various others could not happen today.
• Stoke- Britannia Stadium eventually transformed their fortunes. Yes Coates spent, but this also helped- the Conferencing, Corporate facilities etc.
• Reading- Change Madejski for Coates and you have a great similarity.
• Hull- Interesting one. They spent, undoubtedly they spent but moving to KCOM transformed their attendances, as well as the Conferencing facilities, Corporate facilities and the like. However in final year at Boothferry Park to first season at KCOM- and this was in the 4th tier- they added 4,000 to their attendance taking it up to nearly 17,000. Only grew from there, momentum helped it kick on further.
• Brighton- Grew exponentially. Moved to Amex which coincided with promotion from League One to Championship and their attendances shot up- as in soared from 7,352 in Withdean League One to 20,028 in Championship at the Amex which is nuts. Then hovered between 25-28k for the next 5 seasons- a ridiculous revenue boost and you can imagine how that would transform a club overnight from a Lower League side who sometimes got promoted to the Championship to a top half Championship club.We had a boost but nothing much on that scale. Oh and that year too between 2010/11 and 2011/12 their turnover shot up from £7,542,766 to £22,192,544.
• Watford had an 'interesting' model in which their owners also owned Granada of La Liga and Udinese of Serie A and undoubtedly benefited from this- last time I looked, SL didn't own or have stakes in any foreign top division sides.

Bournemouth aside, all those clubs with the possible exception of Blackburn also have something in common- moved to their new grounds with the off-field benefits well before we redeveloped. @spudski posts about it often on different threads, perhaps more on the football side but it truly applied in this respect too. Fairly sure Walker redeveloped Ewood in quite a big way also

PS, what do you call a £25m loss last season if not giving it a go?? You're an accountant based on your past posts, if there is some wriggle room by which we could have given it more of a go and avoided flouting or flouted and then avoided points deductions/demotions from top 2 or top 6, you should know...#allears

[ScottishRed]

1 hour ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

• Clubs can lose £13m per season before exclusions.
• Some of said legitimate exclusions include infrastructure, stadia, youth academy and community- all areas in which we have invested.
• Average wage bill in Championship- before any other costs- is near enough 100% of turnover.

"But Bournemouth, but Swansea, but Wigan, but Blackburn and more I'm sure, Stoke, Hull maybe etc".

• Bournemouth-Flouted regs as well as brilliantly managed by Howe, but on the financial side the most that could happen was a hefty fine- there were a lot more loopholes in the system. These no longer exist. Not comparable.
• Swansea- had their Swansea way and moved to the Liberty at the right time. They didn't break the bank but thought outside the box from the latter days of Jackett onwards, to Martinez via Sousa culminating in Rodgers. All brought something to the table and their way ended when Laudrup left with their players in the summer he signed going and the American investors all signalled the death knell for their model. Now seem to be trying to rebuild it with Potter back in the Championship. Not comparable so far...
• Wigan- actually moved to JJB or DW Stadium or whatever they call it now quite a while ago- yes Whelan's money the main factor but you know Conferencing facilities and corporate ones that we have gained in recent times? They had quite a while ago, since late 90's when they moved in as it happens.
• Blackburn- Laughable comparison, they were zero- zero- checks and balances or regs financially in football then. Walker couldn't happen today, Whelan couldn't happen today, assorted various others could not happen today.
• Stoke- Britannia Stadium eventually transformed their fortunes. Yes Coates spent, but this also helped- the Conferencing, Corporate facilities etc.
• Reading- Change Madejski for Coates and you have a great similarity.
• Hull- Interesting one. They spent, undoubtedly they spent but moving to KCOM transformed their attendances, as well as the Conferencing facilities, Corporate facilities and the like. However in final year at Boothferry Park to first season at KCOM- and this was in the 4th tier- they added 4,000 to their attendance taking it up to nearly 17,000. Only grew from there, momentum helped it kick on further.
• Brighton- Grew exponentially. Moved to Amex which coincided with promotion from League One to Championship and their attendances shot up- as in soared from 7,352 in Withdean League One to 20,028 in Championship at the Amex which is nuts. Then hovered between 25-28k for the next 5 seasons- a ridiculous revenue boost and you can imagine how that would transform a club overnight from a Lower League side who sometimes got promoted to the Championship to a top half Championship club.We had a boost but nothing much on that scale. Oh and that year too between 2010/11 and 2011/12 their turnover shot up from £7,542,766 to £22,192,544.
• Watford had an 'interesting' model in which their owners also owned Granada of La Liga and Udinese of Serie A and undoubtedly benefited from this- last time I looked, SL didn't own or have stakes in any foreign top division sides.

Bournemouth aside, all those clubs with the possible exception of Blackburn also have something in common- moved to their new grounds with the off-field benefits well before we redeveloped. @spudski posts about it often on different threads, perhaps more on the football side but it truly applied in this respect too. Fairly sure Walker redeveloped Ewood in quite a big way also

PS, what do you call a £25m loss last season if not giving it a go?? You're an accountant based on your past posts, if there is some wriggle room by which we could have given it more of a go and avoided flouting or flouted and then avoided points deductions/demotions from top 2 or top 6, you should know...#allears

As I have said before Mr P let's see what happens with those clubs that are apparently flouting the rules - the sanctions are available, but will they be used.

FFP is utterly flawed and is, in effect, anti - competitive as it totally protects the position of the 'big' clubs.

If I won £100m on the Euro lottery and SL gave me the club for free, I could not use my money to propell us to the PL - that is not right.

There should be limits on owners ' borrowing' money and leaving the club trapped with that debt but if they use their own money that is very different.

[Davefevs]

Following my post yesterday about LJ not having a manager to look up to during his playing career or his management career other than his Dad, I’ve mellowed a fair bit since Saturday and Sunday.

@Boston Red‘s OP, made me think a bit more.

I’m not letting LJ off the hook, but I’m also suggesting SL should face a bit of the music too.

Wasn't it SL who went out on a limb to recommend LJ to Oldham? Was LJ’s appointment here no more than SL wanting to prove he was right about LJ initially, even if he’d not done enough or a long enough apprenticeship to warrant a go at City.  What SL didn’t do was equip LJ with the tools on his arrival here.  

He’d already brought in a COO in MA to get rid of Cotterill.  MA talks a fantastic talk, but is not was not really what LJ needed.  

Someone said to me when LJ was appointed that Macca would be back with Alex Ball.  Lo and behold, Pembo (an experienced Assistant Manager, the right kind of tool) was got rid of, and both Macca and Ball had both returned as my mate predicted and Macca was promoted.  The Alex Ball bit is irrelevant, the Macca bit not so....and very convenient!  

(Ball is now at Southampton, and I know nothing about his time at City, even though I used to play with his dad)

I think SL is desperate to prove he can pick the right boss.  The above is a sequence of events that may have no bearing, but it certainly makes me thinks whether LJ isn’t the only issue.

(this has nothing to do with the money SL has input) 

[paulcityfan]

Yes and no.  Steve Lansdown has created his own way of managing and owning the club it by using one of his 'boys'.  Come on. Lee Johnson is not a manager 

[CodeRed]

We're trapped in the current situation

* we can't survive without Steve Lansdown' s money

* we can't progress with his choice(s) of manager

A poster on another website made a very valid point, the club is progressing on almost every level: stadium, training ground, infrastructure, academy, attendances, off field revenue........the only part lagging behind - or holding us back if you will- is the playing side (Head Coach and the recruitment)

 

[A Horse With No Name]

4 hours ago, Frenchay Red said:

No doubt he loves the club, but an acquaintance of his told me SL dreads appointing football managers as he is worried that they will fail and therefore he will also be seen as failing.

Seems a somewhat insecure way of looking at the process.

GJ has been his only success.

Keith Dawe was instrumental in SC getting the job I believe.

And keeping Lee Johnson in his.

[Mr X]

Good post - but while Ole Gunnar Solskjaer was untested in management in England (...Wales) he had managed at Molde in Norway for three years where he won them the Norwegian title for the first time! He's  gone back there again now and seems to be doing just as well as before! 

[NickJ]

@Mr Popodopolousall you’ve done with your numerous examples is demonstrated how many owners have managed to be more successful than us during Steve’s 16 or so years of ownership 

Aologies if you are a fan but much as I think Steve’s a nice chap I don’t think he’s been as good for Bristol City as he should have been. I have been saying that for a long time and don’t think been proved wrong yet 

[Robbored]

4 minutes ago, NickJ said:

@Mr Popodopolousall you’ve done with your numerous examples is demonstrated how many owners have managed to be more successful than us during Steve’s 16 or so years of ownership 

Aologies if you are a fan but much as I think Steve’s a nice chap I don’t think he’s been as good for Bristol City as he should have been. I have been saying that for a long time and don’t think been proved wrong yet 

Simple question Nick - where would City be without him? 

[NickJ]

3 hours ago, ScottishRed said:

As I have said before Mr P let's see what happens with those clubs that are apparently flouting the rules - the sanctions are available, but will they be used.

FFP is utterly flawed and is, in effect, anti - competitive as it totally protects the position of the 'big' clubs.

If I won £100m on the Euro lottery and SL gave me the club for free, I could not use my money to propell us to the PL - that is not right.

There should be limits on owners ' borrowing' money and leaving the club trapped with that debt but if they use their own money that is very different.

Exactly. The rules can easily be flouted with minimal penalty relative to the rewards of the Premiership. So why doesn’t Steve do so?

To answer my own question I’d say the answers are number one cautious accountant, number two doesn’t trust himself to appoint someone capable of executing the plan.

Which if correct means we are doomed to remaining the West Country nearly team as we have always been. Which is not how I’d have played it out with that wealth and hence the frustration 

[NickJ]

5 minutes ago, Robbored said:

Simple question Nick - where would City be without him? 

On the Downs of course thank God for Steve thanks for the reality check 

[Robbored]

15 minutes ago, NickJ said:

On the Downs of course thank God for Steve thanks for the reality check 

Correct. 

The club would have gone into liquidation without his £60m+ over the years.

[BobBobSuperBob]

4 hours ago, ScottishRed said:

As I have said before Mr P let's see what happens with those clubs that are apparently flouting the rules - the sanctions are available, but will they be used.

FFP is utterly flawed and is, in effect, anti - competitive as it totally protects the position of the 'big' clubs.

If I won £100m on the Euro lottery and SL gave me the club for free, I could not use my money to propell us to the PL - that is not right.

There should be limits on owners ' borrowing' money and leaving the club trapped with that debt but if they use their own money that is very different.

£100 million mate ?

Lee would soon work his way through that in another few windows

[Mr Popodopolous]

1 hour ago, NickJ said:

@Mr Popodopolousall you’ve done with your numerous examples is demonstrated how many owners have managed to be more successful than us during Steve’s 16 or so years of ownership 

Aologies if you are a fan but much as I think Steve’s a nice chap I don’t think he’s been as good for Bristol City as he should have been. I have been saying that for a long time and don’t think been proved wrong yet 

I believe that is fair in part. Only in part though. I tend to back SL really because hs's doing the right thing in a number of ways off the pitch IMO- ground bigger, corporate, conferencing and other off-field revenue generating facilities? Check.

You, me, we'll have different views on financial regs, workarounds and the like but I believe that those loopholes that were there when Bournemouth as the best example went up, are no longer there- to answer the q by @ScottishRed on a subject we have debated many times, the proof or otherwise will be this Spring/this season. Birmingham definitely and Sheffield Wednesday as the most we know about, quite likely should be on course for some big punishments this season. If it happens, then it may stick, If not, then SL should splash the cash and strike while we're on a semi upward trajectory.

However that aspect aside,  even with financial constraints (and it's a big if) yeah a better and more experienced manger could definitely improve things, maybe speed it along a bit- but there's no guarantees- LJ I dunno, he should have learnt by now really but he keeps up the same sort of random selections, questionable tactics, hit and miss recruitment and lastly his man management surely is lacking.

Also think, and dunno who to point this at where it's SL, LJ or MA, but our Scouting Network isn't either of a high enough quantity or quantity,

[ZiderEyed]

1 hour ago, Robbored said:

Correct. 

The club would have gone into liquidation without his £60m+ over the years.

Disappointing lack of nibbles for such high quality bait.

[RedM]

11 hours ago, Mr X said:

Good post - but while Ole Gunnar Solskjaer was untested in management in England (...Wales) he had managed at Molde in Norway for three years where he won them the Norwegian title for the first time! He's  gone back there again now and seems to be doing just as well as before! 

But look who he played under. Enough said.

[MarkRed!]

17 hours ago, Boston Red said:

"Len Shackleton left an entire page blank in his book, reserved for what he believed directors knew about football. If I'd had my way there would be a blank chapter in this book dedicated to the same subject. I have never understood why men with such poor knowledge, or no knowledge at all, insist they know about the game in general and the needs of management in particular. The vast majority of them knew nothing in my days as a player, nothing in my time as a manager, and the modern lot still know nothing today. Yet I continue to see them quoted in the newspapers and droning on in television interviews, trying to convince the public and themselves that they have the faintest idea of how football works. It makes my blood boil; it makes me want to put my foot through the television screen and I'd have done it long before now but I have a dodgy knee to look after. Football club chairmen and directors are still so barmy, so naive, so thick and so stubborn and yet so full of themselves that they continue to make stupid decisions when it comes to the appointment of a manager. That is one of the reasons why there is such a turnover in my industry, so many sackings, resignations and departures explained by that cosy little phrase 'by mutual agreement', which I have never understood for the life of me. Many of the casualties are the victims not only of their own failure - they are the victims of chairmen and directors who shouldn't have given them the job in the first place. 

I wondered about Stuart Gray being given the Southampton job when Glenn Hoddle went to Tottenham. I'm not sure what job Gray had with the club, whether he was coaching the reserves or helping out with the first team. What I do know is I don't think it sufficient to qualify him for the job of manager of a team in the English Premiership. He couldn't have been right for it in normal circumstances, because he had no experience to fall back on. When I heard young Gray had been made manager, it made no sense at all to me. He was a nice lad, I'm sure he still is, but wet behind the ears in management terms. Unless he was a genius so far undiscovered, he hadn't a prayer. Yet Southampton directors chucked all that responsibility into the lap of an untried manager. He didn't last long. He couldn't last long, but when he failed, why weren't serious questions asked of those who shoved Gray in at the deep end? Why weren't any of them held responsible? Why didn't any of them pay the price of losing his own position at the football club? Why? Because they rarely do. Football chairmen and directors at any club you care to look at are among the great survivors in life. "

                                                                                                                                                      Cloughie; Walking on Water. 2005

 

"Football club chairmen and directors are still so barmy, so naive, so thick and so stubborn and yet so full of themselves that they continue to make stupid decisions when it comes to the appointment of a manager. " Get ready for another Lansdown special, boys and girls. Think Dean Holden, Jamie Mcallister, or Michael Appleton.

What is so depressing about Lansdown is that he does not learn from his mistakes. Malchy Mackay got Cardiff to the Premier League. They were outside the relegation zone. But he clashed with Vincent Tan, and Tan sacked him. The Cardiff fans were shocked. Tan then appointed someone with no managerial experience, Ole Gunnar Solskjaer. It was a complete failure, and exactly the pattern that Brian Clough describes. But you know what? Vincent Tan learnt his lesson. He called Neil Warnock for interview. He said "I don't need to interview you. I want you to be Cardiff manager." Warnock swelled with pride and was desperate to do a good job for Tan. In that season he saved Cardiff from the drop. In his first full season, spending little money with an average side, Warnock won Cardiff automatic promotion. Even if they go down they now have parachute payments. But the point is that Vincent Tan learnt that appointing an inexperienced rookie does not work, and appointed someone with a track record of success. But Lansdown, despite appointing Gary Johnson and Steve Cotterill, reverted to type with Lee Johnson. Lee Johnson's record at Barnsley and Oldham was Win 1, Draw 1 Lose 1. That tells you he is not a great manager. "But he will have resources and backing at BCFC!!!" Yes, but the standard of opposition is higher. What is LJ's record at Bristol City? Wait for it.......................it is..........................(about) Win 1 Draw 1 Lose 1. The same. He is no better than when he started. The apathy towards LJ's appointment from the fans was NOT, as some here claim, a nasty vindictive personal vendetta. It was simply that we could see what Lansdown and Ashton could not see, or would not see, that there was no evidence LJ was a successful manager from his career to date. Lansdown's poor judgement about football managers is blighting this football club. But while Vincent Tan learnt his lesson, didn't appoint another rookie, and appointed someone with a track record of success, it remains to be seen whether Lansdown will do that. The appointments of Mcallister and Holden as assistants is the same old depressing Tinnion/Millen/Lee Johnson mistake all over again. What did Steve Lansdown say in the interview with Geoff Twentyman after John Pemberton left the club? "We've appointed Macca..........er................er.............I mean Jamie Mcallister." There you have it. Says it all. Jobs for the boys. And the appointments of Tinnion and Millen were so bad that since leaving BCFC, neither has even put himself forward for a manager's job. They know they are not up to it. They don't even want one. It's not that Tinnion and Millen were managers who failed for us. It is that they were not even managers at all!!!

It is most unlikely that Lansdown will appoint someone who has got a club promoted from the second tier, like Warnock, Holloway, Mcarthy, Bruce, or Allardyce. But even if he does, the set up at the club is so clogged up with managerial-speak nonsense, middling nothing-managers blocking swift decisions, and mediocre inertia that such a manager would either walk like Coppell or be unable to beat the system and fail here anyway. 

 

 

 

Absolutely spot on.  Bravo. 

[Mad Cyril]

An interesting read Mr Clough, but where is this 'Premiership' you refer to? 

[EnderMB]

On the subject of FFP, I'm still not convinced that it's as black and white as people on here make it out to be.

Even if it is, the rules are that a club cannot lose a certain amount of money. This would mean that to spend money, the club needs to earn more money, and ultimately that is what a business should be doing.

Complaining about the lack of spending money is the wrong argument to make. The right thing to complain about is the lack of income, because poor income means no spending. Lansdown needs to get more money funnelling into the club.

As I've said numerous times, if the fans are worried about the bottom line, you don't have a hope in hell of success. The only person that should be worrying about the bottom line are the people footing the bill, and the fact that FFP is mentioned so often on here indicates that there either isn't confidence in Lansdown's leadership, or that we've accepted that we're not a big team in this league.

[Mr Popodopolous]

28 minutes ago, EnderMB said:

On the subject of FFP, I'm still not convinced that it's as black and white as people on here make it out to be.

Even if it is, the rules are that a club cannot lose a certain amount of money. This would mean that to spend money, the club needs to earn more money, and ultimately that is what a business should be doing.

Complaining about the lack of spending money is the wrong argument to make. The right thing to complain about is the lack of income, because poor income means no spending. Lansdown needs to get more money funnelling into the club.

 As I've said numerous times, if the fans are worried about the bottom line, you don't have a hope in hell of success. The only person that should be worrying about the bottom line are the people footing the bill, and the fact that FFP is mentioned so often on here indicates that there either isn't confidence in Lansdown's leadership, or that we've accepted that we're not a big team in this league.

Tbh we are pushing our income up, it is rising- but parachute payments knock things out of kilter somewhat.

Saw a graphic which was (mostly) about 16/17- though it had our results for last season and those of Norwich and Hull and if not for PP our income would have been 7th- though admittedly most clubs are yet to release their turnover for last season so maybe 16/17 would be a better comparison, but because of PP our income was about 12th.

Don't know why Hull aren't on there either, they've released their results.

[David Brent]

19 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Wasn't it SL who went out on a limb to recommend LJ to Oldham?

I thought that was Kenny Dalglish?

I would say that SL is probably reluctant to pick another manager as I imagine it can be stressful and possibly harder each time.

He could bring in someone to make the key decisions for him but who can he trust? How does he know if that someone is a good appointment itself? I wouldn’t trust Mark Ashton to appoint our next manager nor would I trust Jon Lansdown.

 

[southvillekiddy]

On 13/11/2018 at 15:57, Boston Red said:

"Len Shackleton left an entire page blank in his book, reserved for what he believed directors knew about football. If I'd had my way there would be a blank chapter in this book dedicated to the same subject. I have never understood why men with such poor knowledge, or no knowledge at all, insist they know about the game in general and the needs of management in particular. The vast majority of them knew nothing in my days as a player, nothing in my time as a manager, and the modern lot still know nothing today. Yet I continue to see them quoted in the newspapers and droning on in television interviews, trying to convince the public and themselves that they have the faintest idea of how football works. It makes my blood boil; it makes me want to put my foot through the television screen and I'd have done it long before now but I have a dodgy knee to look after. Football club chairmen and directors are still so barmy, so naive, so thick and so stubborn and yet so full of themselves that they continue to make stupid decisions when it comes to the appointment of a manager. That is one of the reasons why there is such a turnover in my industry, so many sackings, resignations and departures explained by that cosy little phrase 'by mutual agreement', which I have never understood for the life of me. Many of the casualties are the victims not only of their own failure - they are the victims of chairmen and directors who shouldn't have given them the job in the first place. 

I wondered about Stuart Gray being given the Southampton job when Glenn Hoddle went to Tottenham. I'm not sure what job Gray had with the club, whether he was coaching the reserves or helping out with the first team. What I do know is I don't think it sufficient to qualify him for the job of manager of a team in the English Premiership. He couldn't have been right for it in normal circumstances, because he had no experience to fall back on. When I heard young Gray had been made manager, it made no sense at all to me. He was a nice lad, I'm sure he still is, but wet behind the ears in management terms. Unless he was a genius so far undiscovered, he hadn't a prayer. Yet Southampton directors chucked all that responsibility into the lap of an untried manager. He didn't last long. He couldn't last long, but when he failed, why weren't serious questions asked of those who shoved Gray in at the deep end? Why weren't any of them held responsible? Why didn't any of them pay the price of losing his own position at the football club? Why? Because they rarely do. Football chairmen and directors at any club you care to look at are among the great survivors in life. "

                                                                                                                                                      Cloughie; Walking on Water. 2005

 

"Football club chairmen and directors are still so barmy, so naive, so thick and so stubborn and yet so full of themselves that they continue to make stupid decisions when it comes to the appointment of a manager. " Get ready for another Lansdown special, boys and girls. Think Dean Holden, Jamie Mcallister, or Michael Appleton.

What is so depressing about Lansdown is that he does not learn from his mistakes. Malchy Mackay got Cardiff to the Premier League. They were outside the relegation zone. But he clashed with Vincent Tan, and Tan sacked him. The Cardiff fans were shocked. Tan then appointed someone with no managerial experience, Ole Gunnar Solskjaer. It was a complete failure, and exactly the pattern that Brian Clough describes. But you know what? Vincent Tan learnt his lesson. He called Neil Warnock for interview. He said "I don't need to interview you. I want you to be Cardiff manager." Warnock swelled with pride and was desperate to do a good job for Tan. In that season he saved Cardiff from the drop. In his first full season, spending little money with an average side, Warnock won Cardiff automatic promotion. Even if they go down they now have parachute payments. But the point is that Vincent Tan learnt that appointing an inexperienced rookie does not work, and appointed someone with a track record of success. But Lansdown, despite appointing Gary Johnson and Steve Cotterill, reverted to type with Lee Johnson. Lee Johnson's record at Barnsley and Oldham was Win 1, Draw 1 Lose 1. That tells you he is not a great manager. "But he will have resources and backing at BCFC!!!" Yes, but the standard of opposition is higher. What is LJ's record at Bristol City? Wait for it.......................it is..........................(about) Win 1 Draw 1 Lose 1. The same. He is no better than when he started. The apathy towards LJ's appointment from the fans was NOT, as some here claim, a nasty vindictive personal vendetta. It was simply that we could see what Lansdown and Ashton could not see, or would not see, that there was no evidence LJ was a successful manager from his career to date. Lansdown's poor judgement about football managers is blighting this football club. But while Vincent Tan learnt his lesson, didn't appoint another rookie, and appointed someone with a track record of success, it remains to be seen whether Lansdown will do that. The appointments of Mcallister and Holden as assistants is the same old depressing Tinnion/Millen/Lee Johnson mistake all over again. What did Steve Lansdown say in the interview with Geoff Twentyman after John Pemberton left the club? "We've appointed Macca..........er................er.............I mean Jamie Mcallister." There you have it. Says it all. Jobs for the boys. And the appointments of Tinnion and Millen were so bad that since leaving BCFC, neither has even put himself forward for a manager's job. They know they are not up to it. They don't even want one. It's not that Tinnion and Millen were managers who failed for us. It is that they were not even managers at all!!!

It is most unlikely that Lansdown will appoint someone who has got a club promoted from the second tier, like Warnock, Holloway, Mcarthy, Bruce, or Allardyce. But even if he does, the set up at the club is so clogged up with managerial-speak nonsense, middling nothing-managers blocking swift decisions, and mediocre inertia that such a manager would either walk like Coppell or be unable to beat the system and fail here anyway. 

 

 

 

Amen brother. Clough said it all and then so did you.