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The Fans Forum , Some rambling thoughts and our Head Coach


BobBobSuperBob

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1 hour ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

 

Very confident in his abilities, possibly to a degree not yet born out by his performance. He made a claim at one point that with a top end budget he’d ‘walk the championship’ - Confidence is good, indeed probably vital but over confidence or belief is possibly not

 

Hahahahahahahaha

Sorry, I know it's very immature of me to respond to a very interesting and well written post (thank you for taking the time to post it @BobBobSuperBob) by focusing on one remark that I wasn't even there to witness myself, but my god. I genuinely can't believe he said that.

I mean it goes without saying that confidence is obviously a necessity and a little bit of ego is almost definitely a good thing in such a job, but so is having some ******* self awareness. Sat here cracking up that he said that to a group of supporters that have had the misfortune of watching his team play 'football' this year. I mean seriously, Jose Mourinho had a Champions League winners medal in his pocket when he called himself a 'special one'.

 

As for what you mention in regards to aura and credibility I make you spot on. There are many reasons I believe him to be extremely unlikely to ever have any real success as a manager (head coach), but that is certainly up there.

Obviously it's a guess (although an educated one) as I don't actually know the bloke I can imagine that although he is perfectly pleasant and other managers may give you a much harder time, he could be very difficult to truly respect. The way he talks and his little 'jokes' here and there would make him rather irritating as far as I'm concerned. I could imagine myself, as you hint at yourself, cringing when he talks and just finding him a bit odd.

As far back as his little dig at Kodjia's tactical awareness after he just arrived, put myself in Kodjia's shoes and I would seriously be thinking who on earth this bloke, that I'd never heard of and only met a few weeks ago, thinks he is. Although I guess we now know who he thinks he is, someone that with a top budget would 'walk the championship'. Sorry, still laughing at that.

Even the nonsense about Taylor the other week. Obviously it was an attempt at a joke, nobody actually thinks he was brought on because he has a song. But it was such a terrible attempt at a joke made at completely the wrong time. You wonder what goes through the bloke's head.

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2 minutes ago, Robin Wood said:

Think sheff utd manager comes across as a man who won't tolerate mediocrity, where as Lee is mediocre doesn't instill fear or confidence in anyone in my opinion 

He also has a tactical plan and ethos (Pretty individualtoo tbf) and recruits players (For peanuts) that fit into that playing ethos

There’s  also no question as to who’s the boss 

 

You also reminded me that Lee claimed Sheffield United is the only time this season we’ve changed our approach or tactics for another side  - Personally I Thought this bizarre and inaccurate 

 

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1 minute ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

He also has a tactical plan and ethos (Pretty individualtoo tbf) and recruits players (For peanuts) that fit into that playing ethos

There’s  also no question as to who’s the boss 

 

You also reminded me that Lee claimed Sheffield United is the only time this season we’ve changed our approach or tactics for another side  - Personally I Thought this bizarre and inaccurate 

 

I think he over complicates the game and we end with the team playing like a bunch of strangers 

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Surely Matt Taylor could stay in hotel the night before a game?   I’ve coped with two hour feeding intervals for the last 4 months and still worked 45 hours a week.  I know it’s hard but jeeeeze 

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11 minutes ago, TomF said:

Surely Matt Taylor could stay in hotel the night before a game?   I’ve coped with two hour feeding intervals for the last 4 months and still worked 45 hours a week.  I know it’s hard but jeeeeze 

Your right but some people live and work in the real world I'm afraid footballers don't have to poor buggers

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3 hours ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

Evening all

Apologies after disappearing for several reasons after the forum posts -

Anyone who asked a specific q resulting from it and not answered below - I will try and answer directly at some point

Will stay out of the today’s post match reaction and rewind the clock to my Post Forum thoughts and some bits that came out that some might find interesting, relevant and want to chew over , and clarify some misinformation that has surfaced from the Forum

 

The badge

I see one of our posters has indicated that ‘Concorde’ was mentioned 

unless it was mentioned Post Forum it wasn’t mentioned by JL on stage

 

Replacing / Finding a striker from the academy ‘

In fairness this has been misrepresented , when asked about finding a Goalscorer MA and LJ explained that they are at a premium and very costly in the Championship and we had to look to see how we could replace goals including seeing what we could develop from within. - it was NOT a case of we will / need to replace from academy

 

Leaders & Characters

Lee was asked about characters / Leaders and having said in 2016 we needed leaders and the same again recently 2 years or so later , why we were still saying the same thing and hadn’t recruited a leader(s) 

LJ explained that they had been retrying to develop leaders amongst the group and mentioned MP specifically

 

Position in Possession

LJ , in response to a question spent some time explaining what he means by this. I won’t go into detail on this post but simplified , where he wants players to be when we are in possession - suppporting , or, protecting the player in possession - ( becoming more cautious ?  may be relevant to some of our turgid play IMHO)

 

Side v Leeds

said he was picking a side that would ‘run and sprint’

Then named side as played today except COD was starting instead of Adelukan

When he named Paterson I think most let out a noise of surprise off the back of his run and sprint comment

 

Which takes me into Jamie Paterson

From a number of comment , Lee is clearly confused himself whether or real problem is creativity or taking of chances and unsure whether to look for a Goalscorer or a creator

Lee didn’t say this specifically but he clearly sees JP as one of our best chance of being a creator and I think that’s why he keeps trying to shoehorn him in

 

Famara Diedhiou 

LJ appears, unsurprisingly ,  clearly disappointed in Famaras influence / performances recently and kept saying he ‘needs to get him going’ as he did with a number of the players and the players as a collective 

 

Matt Taylor

Been struggling as he’s been having 2 hrs sleep at a time due to a new baby

 

The way we’ve been playing

Lee thinks we have been playing well , and cutting through the first two thirds of the pitch with ease but struggling with creating and taking chances

 

He, on a number of occasions , accepted Preston performance was awful but put it down to one bad game 

on a number of occasions it was pointed out to him that in Fans opinions it wasn’t a one off bad game and cited Wigan , Rotherham etc but LJ didn’t accept that

 

I thought it summed up when one chap said to Lee

 ‘ It’s not one bad game Lee it’s 10 wins or so since January’

LJ turned to the supporter and said ‘ I know , and why ? ‘

the supporter together with the others present looked bemused and the supporter rightly said 

‘ I don’t know Lee , you’re the manager , you tell me’

 

Lee’s explanations were a mix of refereeing decisions , injuries , the loss of ‘ 3 £15. Million pound strikers’ in 3 seasons and the loss of Flint Bryan and particularly Reid (I think he’s right about Reid)

Slightly worryingly he particularly highlighted as an example Hordurs long throw to Flint but in fairness also explained why he felt Bobby so valuable

I won’t go into full detail but he is absolutely full of and focused on stats

 

Lee Himself

In discussing the pressure on him I thought Lee made a very good point

Someone on here asked if LJ feared the sack - would he have been brave enough to blood Max

Lee made a similar point insomuch he said he tries to get involved with U 13s etc and if he thought he was going to get the sack soon why would he bother with the acdemy, ie was he doing the right thing and the message that he needs that security / backing to get involved that way - It’s a fair and valid point but more a question of priorities at present time for me  

 

Lee comes across as a decent bloke and have to say again how I admired him for stating so long stood amongst supporters answering questions and discussing various things

 

There are some things he mentioned that I don’t think fair to post on here but most don’t reflect on him or his abilities or otherwise

 

Having listened to him at close hand for a hour some of my general thoughts about him were strengthened

Very passionate

lives and breathes football and his post

Very confident in his abilities, possibly to a degree not yet born out by his performance. He made a claim at one point that with a top end budget he’d ‘walk the championship’ - Confidence is good, indeed probably vital but over confidence or belief is possibly not

Lee appears a bit confused and maybe shocked by recent performances or lack of and kept saying about needing to get the ‘players going’

Unsurprisingly, He is clearly feeling the pressure

He also appears in confusion and dilemna as to whether our real problems lie in our creativity in the final third or our lack of real goal scorer

I have to confess, listening to him closely I think he could be described as dillusional ( IMHO ) in the way he describes and sees us playing and our performances

He again spoke about his ‘Busy Bee’ philosophy , but when asked how Famara fitted into any ‘Busy Bee’ philosophy he couldn’t really explain In all honesty

Having spoken to him on a few occasions and watched him since he’s been here I keep coming back to the same thing

Somebody on the Forum thread mentioned ‘aura’

I heard GJ speak and on a number of occasions and thought he epitomised aura, I recall thinking ‘Yep I’d want to play for you’

I’ve been lucky enough, on occasions to meet various characters in the game and some have had a natural aura and presence , some not

For me personally , Lee just doesn’t have that aura / presence - that’s not a criticism , that’s just the way it is

 

So when it comes to managing the players and getting the best from them Lee can try the bullying or Churchill approach , or cajoling with a backdrop of credibility

If I’m honest I believe that Lee has , and does try both

For me he simply doesn’t have the presence / aura or credibility to,pulll off the first

the second, - He clearly tries this and clearly appears to back up his coaching with a lot of stats and analysis - credibility still a question ?

 

His passion is clear , but I just don’t see him tactically or maybe more importantly , a clever / good ‘manager / leader / motivator’ 

Personally I think he gets too hung up in details and stats and he has the misfortune of saying , what I regard as silly or strange things which as I stood there the other night , and on previous occasions , if I was a player I’d be thinking ‘oh shut up’ or ‘What ?..eh ?  ‘

I’m not at all sure he has either the respect of players or that they fear him or any other motivational factor

 

I’d love to know the real truth about recruitment - a conversation I had at the Forum makes me suspect MAs fingers in the pie

 

I think LJ is trying to follow some demanding ‘wants’ from the owner as best he can

if I’m honest I’m not sure he’s up to the whole task

At one point you could almost see his exasperation as he said ‘ I’ve got to develop players from the academy , sell players to get funds in , and be twenty points clear at the top of this league’

 

Slightly dramatic but you get his drift

 

So just a few bits for people to mull over

My immediate fear is that I sense / smell a Head Coach and Squad that looks lacking in ideas or consistency in approach and has a relegation fight feel all over it atm - And Personally I don’t fancy this squad in a relegation battle

 

As I said earlier in the week , right man , wrong job for me

 

 

He also alluded that if an experienced manager like, for instance, David Moyes was wanted by Lansdown he would want about 50m as a transfer fund. Unfortunately I can’t see SL going down that route. Looks like we’re knackered, young coach unsuccessful and no intention to hire an experienced replacement. 

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18 minutes ago, aa_bcfc said:

He also alluded that if an experienced manager like, for instance, David Moyes was wanted by Lansdown he would want about 50m as a transfer fund. Unfortunately I can’t see SL going down that route. Looks like we’re knackered, young coach unsuccessful and no intention to hire an experienced replacement. 

You were clearly part of the conversations AA 

What was your impression?

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Oh, we’ve done high profile managers in the past. We had one who had taken a team to the quarter finals of the World Cup. That worked out well. Within 2 years we were relegated with a truly pathetic team.

We’ve also had a manager who had taken a team to the European Cup Final . That worked out even better. We were relegated 3 years in a row.

 

Peter Doherty and Bob Houghton (Yes, I know Dicks was in charge for the first of those 3 seasons)

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1 minute ago, Kid in the Riot said:

Nothing here that we weren't saying two years ago @BobBobSuperBob

What was your impression of JMac and Holden in regards to 'aura'?

Again , two nice enough guys but aura / presence , IMHO , no

I didn’t bother chatting to them this time around as , Tbf to them they are far more guarded and predictable in what they reveal

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4 hours ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

As I said earlier in the week , right man , wrong job for me

Great post @BobBobSuperBob Even in these difficult circumstances it made a very interesting read.

The following is all hindsight and I claim no special vision but it's clear now that LJ was always on an accelerated path back to Ashton Gate from the day he started his coaching badges. Oldham was a risky first management foray (with Steve Lansdown giving that initial reference) and Barnsley was the platform to make the BCFC switch feasible.

He stayed a minimum time at those two clubs and the call (and compensation) to join Bristol City couldn't have come any earlier.

And that's a shame.

He clearly loves BCFC and even when his reputation was soaring, we were never in danger of losing him to a bigger club. I think he's got some excellent coaching credentials and deserves huge credit for supporting Bobby Reid's development.

But, in the rush to get him into the role of first team coach, a number of inconvenient realities were overlooked - many identified in @BobBobSuperBob's original post above.  We've heard a lot about DNA and 'due diligence' but for LJ's appointment, the dice was rolled.

It's not working. It's been long enough and the playing vision is unclear. We've had more than three transfer windows and we're now heading down. This is a relegation fight.

If there was a way to retain Lee as a coach then I would be happy to see his hard work and loyalty rewarded.

We need a new voice in charge of the first team.

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2 hours ago, NickJ said:

@Bob Bob Super Bobsuperb information and thoughts.

I don't feel sorry for him though.

He's out of his depth, got the job because SL has no idea as to what makes a successful manager, and as for his comment  that "with a top end budget he’d ‘walk the championship" that is laughable. But the bit you've identified, that he has no presence, I said on day one of his appointment. Not his fault, but no football manager without that has any hope of being successful.

We can all see he is out of his depth, no leadership, over reliance on stats, too worried about opinions, says he wants leaders but got rid of the leaders he had because they were not fitting into his thinking - the mans not a leader himself! A former gutless midfielder who has the full support of the clubs financier, we have no chance!

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4 hours ago, BigAlToby&Liam said:

Thanks Bob.

Did Lee talk about his relationship with his employer? 

I’m intrigued. I’d say both are well and truly out of their footballing depth.....

I think you are out of your tiny mind if he actually did, mind you it wouldn't surprise me if Bob has an opinion on that one too.

 

 

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Problem with his father was that he had a squad that knew they needed to find new clubs if we won promotion, he did a fantastic job getting us to the playoffs but on the day the players played for themselves.  We will never have that opportunity under Lee!

we need a manager who can motivate, not a sycophant afraid of strong personalities!

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1 hour ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

You were clearly part of the conversations AA 

What was your impression?

Pretty much the same as you mate. I was surprised how many of those in the chat with Lee appeared, unlike me, to be very much taken in by the points Lee was making. My view was on Tuesday, and has been for some time, that he is out of his depth, signed too many average players and as you have said (and you did on Tuesday) if/when this lot are in a relegation battle they don’t look up to it. Today was a clear example, as soon as we went down to 10 we were all over the place with no leaders, organisation or composure.

Lee talks about signing players and improving them. Of those he’s signed how many could we get decent money for or would bigger clubs want? At least we don’t need to worry about bigger clubs poaching any of his signings, as we did with players he didn’t bring to the club (flint,joe, bobby) last January. 

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Just to follow on from my previous post. On Tuesday LJ spoke a lot about our identity. He said after yesterday’s game that we had got out identity back with that display. OMG if that is Bristol City’s identity we really are deep in the brown stuff. 

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Very revealing, BobBobSuperBob . I work in a hospital and have often pondered that you only really see what a person is made of, his or her true character, when they are faced with adversity and I fear we are seeing what our head coach is made of now his back is to the wall. We have had several signs of this over these few seasons. Examples are numerous, like the elimination of Pemberton, a man with more experience than himself, to be replaced by two coaches to whom he can be the “older and wiser man.” The sidelining of leaders and vocal players whom have played at a higher level than himself; myself,  Olé and  Davefevs had an interesting conversation on here about the effect of this last season as I recall. The “downing of tools” witnessed in the latter half of last season, followed by the rush out the door of our more capable, I might add in Bryan’s case intelligent, (no offence to the others!) players. We also have the distancing of himself from events that put him in a bad light, for example the very staged “nothing to see here” Tomlin interview, the non-selection of players due to “injury” when they, like with O’neil for example, put on social media that they have been fit for weeks. This shifting of blame is sometimes obvious, such as blaming Mags for being on the ground for most of the time in that, my god there are so many now, bad defeat by Preston (5-0 and Mags had only come on as a sub.) Yet it is also subtle, the blaming of us the fans with talk of how the team will benefit from playing away from home, or for booing a player when the reality is we are booing the manager’s continued selection of an out of form player or the playing of them out of the position. The “players I can trust” is an obvious slight, but the more subtle that he stated he would “walk the championship with a bigger budget” (or words to that effect) is not only a slight towards his benefactor, but also to the squad, his squad, the one he has built – whilst also insinuating that it is not him or his decisions that are at fault, but that his players are incapable of following his technical brilliance. This was used many times in the free fall of last season, for example when I recall him saying in a post match interview “I didn’t tell the players to play like that.” Yet now we are even seeing the blaming of officials. I believe there is a massive stubbornness to be proved right, one that is shared by the owner, judging by the embarrassing self-congratulations of appearing in every newspaper during the oh-so-distant good run of last season with tales of how right and refreshing SL and co had been to stick with their man. This I feel was repeated last week with the post-match report of Patterson, who chased several of his own passes, having been “Excellent” as an attempt to justify his continuing, and bizarre, constant selection. Such as how we had been “the better team” until the sending off, distancing himself from the obvious question of how a better team can only manage one shot on target.

What does all this mean? Personally, I feel he believes he is far more technically brilliant than the evidence suggests, and that this leads to the constant changing of our team to fit our opponents as if he takes advice from Sun Tzu’s Art of war which contains such snippets as “The one who figures on victory at headquarters before even doing battle is the one who has the most strategic factors on his side” – this reminds me of how he often mentions how his house is always filled with dozens and dozens of teamsheets – or not knowing your best eleven as its called in English. Or how about this wisdom – “The formation and procedure used by the military should not be divulged beforehand” – remind anyone of the random placement of the released team before selection? All of this points, in my eyes, to someone who lacks experience and is trying to make up for it by overcompensating, and over-evaluating, his own intelligence; mere power-point substitution for actual experience working as an assistant to another manager. I expect, as you and others have mentioned, that all this just confuses the team and it is this that removes all signs of identity or cohesion at every club he has managed, leading to his trademark bad runs. Remember how the club record breaking run was only halted when he went back to basics – flat 442, simple and robust. Very much like how our good run at the start of last season coincided with a skeleton crew of players, flat 4 of cb’s, with little room for technical manoeuvring and thus tinkering. At the start of the season I said on here I think our signings are less important than if our manager has leant from his mistakes, and victories. Well he hasn’t. And we won’t progress unless he starts to learn or leaves.

It’s a pity as he could be a good manager, I feel that like all the greats, he needed the humility to work under an experienced hand for a good number of years before even attempting to be a manager himself, as many on here have said.      

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I realise a lot of people are going to disagree with what I'm about to say but I actually think our recruitment - in terms of the players we actually get - is decent. There have been issues with failing to recruit in key positions (although I realise it could be our ability to attract the right players at the right price) but I actually do not have a problem with the players we have brought in. I also think the club as a whole has improved massively since MA comes in and he gets a degree of unfair flak. True, we're not getting a Director of Football because he is doing that role under another title but I don't think he is doing a bad job of that and, as I've said on other threads, the biggest club in Europe tend to have Directors of Football who have never managed (nor even necessarily played) so I think the idea that getting an experienced manager in as a Director of Football can be a mistake and lead to an unnecessary power clash.

I also disagree with the idea LJ lacks experience. Perhaps he did when he was appointed but he has been managing for nearly 6 years, 3 of them in the Championship. There are more experienced managers for sure but he's not some wide-eyed kid. I think the idea that a lack of experience is the problem is a misnomer. I also don't really agree with the idea he needs to work with someone more experienced It might help, for sure, and he needs to learn things from other people but I think experience is only helps if you're using it to do things differently. Someone could have done the same job in the same way for 27 years and perhaps that would make them experienced but I don't think it makes them better at their job than someone who has done it for a year but spent that year learning how to do it better.

That said, I do think posters have hit the nail on the head in other areas. I think @BobBobSuperBobis bang on about the aura. I think it possible LJ has good ideas and there are periods where we do play good football but it is also clear he struggles to influence things in the face of adversity. Ultimately I don't even think the issue is whether or not he can be a good manager. I think there is a difference between a manager and a leader and , potential to be good manager or not, I don't see the skills to be a leader and I think that may be what actually matters. 

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15 minutes ago, LondonBristolian said:

I also disagree with the idea LJ lacks experience. Perhaps he did when he was appointed but he has been managing for nearly 6 years, 3 of them in the Championship. There are more experienced managers for sure but he's not some wide-eyed kid.

Heard it mentioned over the weekend that Karanka had just passed five years in management, his first job at Middlesbrough coming around six months after Johnson turned up at Oldham.

It’s weird I never hear anyone excusing Karanka and suggesting Forest fans, or Boro before, have to be patient because he’s ‘young and still learning’.

A lack of ability is far more likely to be the case than a lack of experience.

 

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17 minutes ago, bearded_red said:

Heard it mentioned over the weekend that Karanka had just passed five years in management, his first job at Middlesbrough coming around six months after Johnson turned up at Oldham.

It’s weird I never hear anyone excusing Karanka and suggesting Forest fans, or Boro before, have to be patient because he’s ‘young and still learning’.

A lack of ability is far more likely to be the case than a lack of experience.

 

 

39 minutes ago, LondonBristolian said:

I realise a lot of people are going to disagree with what I'm about to say but I actually think our recruitment - in terms of the players we actually get - is decent. There have been issues with failing to recruit in key positions (although I realise it could be our ability to attract the right players at the right price) but I actually do not have a problem with the players we have brought in. I also think the club as a whole has improved massively since MA comes in and he gets a degree of unfair flak. True, we're not getting a Director of Football because he is doing that role under another title but I don't think he is doing a bad job of that and, as I've said on other threads, the biggest club in Europe tend to have Directors of Football who have never managed (nor even necessarily played) so I think the idea that getting an experienced manager in as a Director of Football can be a mistake and lead to an unnecessary power clash.

I also disagree with the idea LJ lacks experience. Perhaps he did when he was appointed but he has been managing for nearly 6 years, 3 of them in the Championship. There are more experienced managers for sure but he's not some wide-eyed kid. I think the idea that a lack of experience is the problem is a misnomer. I also don't really agree with the idea he needs to work with someone more experienced It might help, for sure, and he needs to learn things from other people but I think experience is only helps if you're using it to do things differently. Someone could have done the same job in the same way for 27 years and perhaps that would make them experienced but I don't think it makes them better at their job than someone who has done it for a year but spent that year learning how to do it better.

That said, I do think posters have hit the nail on the head in other areas. I think @BobBobSuperBobis bang on about the aura. I think it possible LJ has good ideas and there are periods where we do play good football but it is also clear he struggles to influence things in the face of adversity. Ultimately I don't even think the issue is whether or not he can be a good manager. I think there is a difference between a manager and a leader and , potential to be good manager or not, I don't see the skills to be a leader and I think that may be what actually matters. 

 

1 hour ago, Bobfish said:

Very revealing, BobBobSuperBob . I work in a hospital and have often pondered that you only really see what a person is made of, his or her true character, when they are faced with adversity and I fear we are seeing what our head coach is made of now his back is to the wall. We have had several signs of this over these few seasons. Examples are numerous, like the elimination of Pemberton, a man with more experience than himself, to be replaced by two coaches to whom he can be the “older and wiser man.” The sidelining of leaders and vocal players whom have played at a higher level than himself; myself,  Olé and  Davefevs had an interesting conversation on here about the effect of this last season as I recall. The “downing of tools” witnessed in the latter half of last season, followed by the rush out the door of our more capable, I might add in Bryan’s case intelligent, (no offence to the others!) players. We also have the distancing of himself from events that put him in a bad light, for example the very staged “nothing to see here” Tomlin interview, the non-selection of players due to “injury” when they, like with O’neil for example, put on social media that they have been fit for weeks. This shifting of blame is sometimes obvious, such as blaming Mags for being on the ground for most of the time in that, my god there are so many now, bad defeat by Preston (5-0 and Mags had only come on as a sub.) Yet it is also subtle, the blaming of us the fans with talk of how the team will benefit from playing away from home, or for booing a player when the reality is we are booing the manager’s continued selection of an out of form player or the playing of them out of the position. The “players I can trust” is an obvious slight, but the more subtle that he stated he would “walk the championship with a bigger budget” (or words to that effect) is not only a slight towards his benefactor, but also to the squad, his squad, the one he has built – whilst also insinuating that it is not him or his decisions that are at fault, but that his players are incapable of following his technical brilliance. This was used many times in the free fall of last season, for example when I recall him saying in a post match interview “I didn’t tell the players to play like that.” Yet now we are even seeing the blaming of officials. I believe there is a massive stubbornness to be proved right, one that is shared by the owner, judging by the embarrassing self-congratulations of appearing in every newspaper during the oh-so-distant good run of last season with tales of how right and refreshing SL and co had been to stick with their man. This I feel was repeated last week with the post-match report of Patterson, who chased several of his own passes, having been “Excellent” as an attempt to justify his continuing, and bizarre, constant selection. Such as how we had been “the better team” until the sending off, distancing himself from the obvious question of how a better team can only manage one shot on target.

What does all this mean? Personally, I feel he believes he is far more technically brilliant than the evidence suggests, and that this leads to the constant changing of our team to fit our opponents as if he takes advice from Sun Tzu’s Art of war which contains such snippets as “The one who figures on victory at headquarters before even doing battle is the one who has the most strategic factors on his side” – this reminds me of how he often mentions how his house is always filled with dozens and dozens of teamsheets – or not knowing your best eleven as its called in English. Or how about this wisdom – “The formation and procedure used by the military should not be divulged beforehand” – remind anyone of the random placement of the released team before selection? All of this points, in my eyes, to someone who lacks experience and is trying to make up for it by overcompensating, and over-evaluating, his own intelligence; mere power-point substitution for actual experience working as an assistant to another manager. I expect, as you and others have mentioned, that all this just confuses the team and it is this that removes all signs of identity or cohesion at every club he has managed, leading to his trademark bad runs. Remember how the club record breaking run was only halted when he went back to basics – flat 442, simple and robust. Very much like how our good run at the start of last season coincided with a skeleton crew of players, flat 4 of cb’s, with little room for technical manoeuvring and thus tinkering. At the start of the season I said on here I think our signings are less important than if our manager has leant from his mistakes, and victories. Well he hasn’t. And we won’t progress unless he starts to learn or leaves.

 

It’s a pity as he could be a good manager, I feel that like all the greats, he needed the humility to work under an experienced hand for a good number of years before even attempting to be a manager himself, as many on here have said.      

 

Some excellent thoughts / points 

Thought provoking and pretty spot on as far as I can see

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On 24/11/2018 at 17:55, BobBobSuperBob said:

Lee’s explanations were a mix of refereeing decisions , injuries , the loss of ‘ 3 £15. Million pound strikers’ in 3 seasons and the loss of Flint Bryan and particularly Reid (I think he’s right about Reid)

This really frustrates me as he knows the in's and outs of the club, he knows we're a selling club and yet he seems surprised when we sell key players. As a club we also seem to struggle to find those up and coming talents to replace these players which is the key part of our develop and then sell for a profit approach. If Lee or the staff cannot identify potential then are we really in a position to make this a substainable way to run the club? I personally do not think so. I think sooner or later the quality of the club will be a lot lower and we'll be relegated. 

Lee comes across as a decent bloke and have to say again how I admired him for stating so long stood amongst supporters answering questions and discussing various things

I don't think anyone doubts that Lee is a decent bloke, the issue is football is not about being decent, it's about getting results in a cut-throat business. He can be the most decent bloke in the UK, it means nothing without progression.

Very confident in his abilities, possibly to a degree not yet born out by his performance. He made a claim at one point that with a top end budget he’d ‘walk the championship’ - Confidence is good, indeed probably vital but over confidence or belief is possibly not

Another source of frustration for me personally. With so much confidence in himself it makes me wonder how the players don't seem to also share this confidence. When we have a poor run of form we rarely look like a team with confidence, yet other clubs who have a poor run but have a manager with that ability to instill confidence show it and turn things around. I haven't really seen that stand out performance in a poor run with LJ, we tend more to scrape a win and then hope we can go back to back to try and turn the confidence issues around

6

 

On 24/11/2018 at 17:55, BobBobSuperBob said:

His passion is clear , but I just don’t see him tactically or maybe more importantly , a clever / good ‘manager / leader / motivator’ 

This is my main concern, it's great to have someone who is passionate but they also need to have that motivating factor to put that passion into the staff, the players and the fans

I’d love to know the real truth about recruitment - a conversation I had at the Forum makes me suspect MAs fingers in the pie

I think he has some kind of major commission on landing players. I have no proof or facts, just suspicions.

My immediate fear is that I sense / smell a Head Coach and Squad that looks lacking in ideas or consistency in approach and has a relegation fight feel all over it atm - And Personally I don’t fancy this squad in a relegation battle

I couldn't agree more with this, if we look at our squad and ask "Who out of this squad would fight tooth, nail and finger?" I would struggle to name more than a hanful of players, and even then I wouldn;t be confident with all of those names.

8

 

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40 minutes ago, bearded_red said:

Heard it mentioned over the weekend that Karanka had just passed five years in management, his first job at Middlesbrough coming around six months after Johnson turned up at Oldham.

It’s weird I never hear anyone excusing Karanka and suggesting Forest fans, or Boro before, have to be patient because he’s ‘young and still learning’.

A lack of ability is far more likely to be the case than a lack of experience.

 

It's like being in a couple, it's rarely so bad that you have to bail out at the beginning of the relationship.

Then you put up with the faults for a while but you have a nagging feeling that somehow it just isn't right .

It's not all bad however so you cling on a bit longer thinking that it might change with time , it never does. 

Follow your intuition, get out early and let your partner find the right match and you yours.

In short  Johnson Out . 

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I've only just found this excellent thread. How did I miss it? Thanks Bob for the excellent report of the Forum.

I came to the conclusion some time ago that our football management structure is badly flawed. In my opinion, from my experiences in industry, seeing how Portuguese clubs like Benfica operate and having watched football, from schoolboys to top tier clubs, all my life, a better structure for us would be as this.

Director of Football - A senior, experienced, wise head to oversee all aspects of the club from schoolboy to first team. The DOF, would set the parameters for the playing style throughout the club so that all young players would be able to move up the levels without having to re-learn tactics. Responsibility for recruitment of coaching and playing staff.

A First Team Coach - responsible solely for the first team. No involvement with contracts. Close liaison with DOF on recruitment from outside of the club. But 95% focused on results for the most important team in the club.

An Academy Director - this is where I would have Lee Johnson. His love of the club, his enthusiasm for learning would rub off on those academy boys and make them better learners and players

The days of the First team manager running every aspect of the club have disappeared. BCFC in the old days had a board of directors who each had a responsibility for a specific part of the club such as pitch maintenance, a manager, a trainer, a club secretary and a club scout. Three teams, First, Reserves and Colts. How many are there now?

All of the coaches at the club would have close contact with each other. The First Team Coach would watch the Under 23's in the same way as he would watch another club's first team - are there any there who would improve my first team.

Just because an ex player wants to "manage Bristol City", it is well proven that the majority are not suited to it. Tinman has proved that and now apparently is one of the most important people in the development if your players.

Results are not the prime factor at all levels, it is development of individuals.

But at First team, while the way the team performs is very important, the only factor is results. A winning club will encourage all aspects of the club and it's paying supporters.

A dull, losing first team, will ultimately destroy the whole club. Young talent will not see a development path and leave. Players we want to buy will not be interested, coaches will lose heart and the fans will disappear.

We have some very good talent within the Academy, who give me hope for the future of the club. But, at this moment, I see only negativity because the only team that matters is not performing and a First Team Head Coach who appears to be clearly out of his depth.

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On ‎24‎/‎11‎/‎2018 at 17:55, BobBobSuperBob said:

He made a claim at one point that with a top end budget he’d ‘walk the championship’

If the reward outweighs the expenditure why do you think Lansdown is reluctant to spend like other billionaires do?

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Late to this party, great OP @BobBobSuperBob and some very good and interesting reply's.

When we had our record run, didn't LJ say he was giving the team too much information and making it over complicated? We went from that , to a real pattern and style of play which was working brilliantly. That spell up until Jan last year saw some of the best football I've seen from a City side. 
There have been many theories on here about why or what happened, I doubt we will ever know for sure, but what I'm more concerned about is LJ's thinking. If he thought that the high press and short quick passing was the way to go, and to be fair it was working and great to watch, why not stick with it. Recruit players for that system, not recruit players and then think of a system.  At the moment I don't think we have a direction, style or in Lee's words identity. It does look like someone other than the Manager/Coach is doing the buying , and unless he names the targets I don't see how that can work when you're trying to build a side to play a certain way. Of the 3 players we lost in the summer, only Reid really effects that style.  We miss Flint up front and I really think we only miss Bryan LMF, so nothing to stop us playing the same way apart from poor recruitment. Yet we have clearly moved away from that type of football but to what, I'm not sure. 
The claim that with a top end budget he’d ‘walk the championship’ is laughable, if we had £300m to spend you still have to bring in the right players, something that we have struggled to do over enough windows to glaze a house.

As to the point about LJ not knowing whether it is a striking problem or a creativity problem , I have thought this before. I can recall a game (but no the opposition or players involved) where we were playing poorly , created nothing and the strikers hadn't been given a decent ball all day. The subs that came on were straight swaps for the strikers , unsurprisingly nothing changed. I have lost count of the posts and posters that have called for more and better MF signings and time after time we sign wingers. His reluctance this year meant (partly because he wouldn't play Walsh until lately) we had only 2 MF's , Pack and Brownhill ended up running themselves into the ground and that could explain Pack's poor form of late. 

I think LJ gets caught up on the tiny details and can make it a very complicated game sometimes,  if he doesn't have a defined strategy or confidence in his plan how can the players.

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6 minutes ago, 1960maaan said:

Late to this party, great OP @BobBobSuperBob and some very good and interesting reply's.

When we had our record run, didn't LJ say he was giving the team too much information and making it over complicated? We went from that , to a real pattern and style of play which was working brilliantly. That spell up until Jan last year saw some of the best football I've seen from a City side. 
There have been many theories on here about why or what happened, I doubt we will ever know for sure, but what I'm more concerned about is LJ's thinking. If he thought that the high press and short quick passing was the way to go, and to be fair it was working and great to watch, why not stick with it. Recruit players for that system, not recruit players and then think of a system.  At the moment I don't think we have a direction, style or in Lee's words identity. It does look like someone other than the Manager/Coach is doing the buying , and unless he names the targets I don't see how that can work when you're trying to build a side to play a certain way. Of the 3 players we lost in the summer, only Reid really effects that style.  We miss Flint up front and I really think we only miss Bryan LMF, so nothing to stop us playing the same way apart from poor recruitment. Yet we have clearly moved away from that type of football but to what, I'm not sure. 
The claim that with a top end budget he’d ‘walk the championship’ is laughable, if we had £300m to spend you still have to bring in the right players, something that we have struggled to do over enough windows to glaze a house.

As to the point about LJ not knowing whether it is a striking problem or a creativity problem , I have thought this before. I can recall a game (but no the opposition or players involved) where we were playing poorly , created nothing and the strikers hadn't been given a decent ball all day. The subs that came on were straight swaps for the strikers , unsurprisingly nothing changed. I have lost count of the posts and posters that have called for more and better MF signings and time after time we sign wingers. His reluctance this year meant (partly because he wouldn't play Walsh until lately) we had only 2 MF's , Pack and Brownhill ended up running themselves into the ground and that could explain Pack's poor form of late. 

I think LJ gets caught up on the tiny details and can make it a very complicated game sometimes,  if he doesn't have a defined strategy or confidence in his plan how can the players.

Not signing a proper cmf is totally baffling, anyone with an ounce of football knowledge can see we’re crying out for more creativity in the middle of the park.

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