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Gratbot

Jamie Paterson

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I've been debating since Saturday about whether to start a new JP thread or not.

Rightly or wrongly, he's this year's scapegoat. I accept that he has been, at times, woefully out of form for almost 12 months now.

Despite that I can see why Johnson is persevering with him. When on form he is without doubt our best and most creative player in the squad and and up there with the best in the division. People talk about how pivotal Reid was to our play and they're correct, but JP was just as crucial in that number 10 role behind him. The timing of his virus was awful and I don't think he was really given long enough to recover and come back at full strength which could go a long way to explaining his poor form in the first half of the year.

He's had a full preseason to rebuild strength now and some fans are refusing to see it but I am seeing glimpses of him returning to his old self and I think LJ is too. For the record, I don't agree with him being shoehorned in at left mid. I think he's wasted out there and impacts the team negatively as he doesn't help out the fullbacks in the way that our other wingers do. His best position is, and always has been in the hole behind an intelligent and hard working striker. His first few performances this season were bad and he came into criticism rightly so, but he has picked up in his last few performance and at Leeds on Saturday it was a poor attacking performance from the team but I thought he looked the most likely to make something happen. We saw a few of his trademark turns and weaving in and out of players. He didn't assist and he didn't score but I found his performance encouraging and has given me some confidence that he's returning to form. 

It's time for Johnson to stop chopping and changing, play his favourite 4-4-1-1 formation and give JP and another forward a run of games together and let them build up a partnership. I think the most likely player is Weimann but I'd be just as happy with Matty. 

All I'm asking from the anti-Paterson brigade is that they don't moan and write the game off as soon as they see him in the starting line up but try and wipe from their memories his 2018 form and try and judge his current performances on their individual merits. I genuinely believe he's the key to our turnaround.

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7 minutes ago, Gratbot said:

I've been debating since Saturday about whether to start a new JP thread or not.

Rightly or wrongly, he's this year's scapegoat. I accept that he has been, at times, woefully out of form for almost 12 months now.

Despite that I can see why Johnson is persevering with him. When on form he is without doubt our best and most creative player in the squad and and up there with the best in the division. People talk about how pivotal Reid was to our play and they're correct, but JP was just as crucial in that number 10 role behind him. The timing of his virus was awful and I don't think he was really given long enough to recover and come back at full strength which could go a long way to explaining his poor form in the first half of the year.

He's had a full preseason to rebuild strength now and some fans are refusing to see it but I am seeing glimpses of him returning to his old self and I think LJ is too. For the record, I don't agree with him being shoehorned in at left mid. I think he's wasted out there and impacts the team negatively as he doesn't help out the fullbacks in the way that our other wingers do. His best position is, and always has been in the hole behind an intelligent and hard working striker. His first few performances this season were bad and he came into criticism rightly so, but he has picked up in his last few performance and at Leeds on Saturday it was a poor attacking performance from the team but I thought he looked the most likely to make something happen. We saw a few of his trademark turns and weaving in and out of players. He didn't assist and he didn't score but I found his performance encouraging and has given me some confidence that he's returning to form. 

It's time for Johnson to stop chopping and changing, play his favourite 4-4-1-1 formation and give JP and another forward a run of games together and let them build up a partnership. I think the most likely player is Weimann but I'd be just as happy with Matty. 

All I'm asking from the anti-Paterson brigade is that they don't moan and write the game off as soon as they see him in the starting line up but try and wipe from their memories his 2018 form and try and judge his current performances on their individual merits. I genuinely believe he's the key to our turnaround.

Only player to look to get the ball forwards vs Preston after he came on and wasn't... bad? against Leeds. Definitely better than he has been but still a long way to go to be in the starting line up for me. The Patto of 2017 would do wonders for us currently.

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20 minutes ago, Gratbot said:

I've been debating since Saturday about whether to start a new JP thread or not.

Rightly or wrongly, he's this year's scapegoat. I accept that he has been, at times, woefully out of form for almost 12 months now.

Despite that I can see why Johnson is persevering with him. When on form he is without doubt our best and most creative player in the squad and and up there with the best in the division. People talk about how pivotal Reid was to our play and they're correct, but JP was just as crucial in that number 10 role behind him. The timing of his virus was awful and I don't think he was really given long enough to recover and come back at full strength which could go a long way to explaining his poor form in the first half of the year.

He's had a full preseason to rebuild strength now and some fans are refusing to see it but I am seeing glimpses of him returning to his old self and I think LJ is too. For the record, I don't agree with him being shoehorned in at left mid. I think he's wasted out there and impacts the team negatively as he doesn't help out the fullbacks in the way that our other wingers do. His best position is, and always has been in the hole behind an intelligent and hard working striker. His first few performances this season were bad and he came into criticism rightly so, but he has picked up in his last few performance and at Leeds on Saturday it was a poor attacking performance from the team but I thought he looked the most likely to make something happen. We saw a few of his trademark turns and weaving in and out of players. He didn't assist and he didn't score but I found his performance encouraging and has given me some confidence that he's returning to form. 

It's time for Johnson to stop chopping and changing, play his favourite 4-4-1-1 formation and give JP and another forward a run of games together and let them build up a partnership. I think the most likely player is Weimann but I'd be just as happy with Matty. 

All I'm asking from the anti-Paterson brigade is that they don't moan and write the game off as soon as they see him in the starting line up but try and wipe from their memories his 2018 form and try and judge his current performances on their individual merits. I genuinely believe he's the key to our turnaround.

He has been woeful , but a good post , IMHO

i agree with you

in so much your main point is that he offers one of our few hopes of a turnaround, , one of few capable of offering something a bit different or extra, and exactly why LJ keeps picking him 

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He was good on Saturday and hasn't been anywhere near as bad as some fans are suggesting. No problem if he starts on Wednesday.  We need to create more chances than we are and that is his strength.

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When JP plays well, we generally play well. 

I understand that he’s been badly out of form this year (coinciding with our poor form) we need him playing well again and there have been signs of hope recently. 

Come on JP, we need you back on form son! 

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If we are to go down that road- and he should play as a pure number 10 and nothing else. The best 4-4-1-1 configuration with current personnel, from when Brownhill back let's say as I don't see us reverting back tomorrow but we'll see.

             Maenpaa

Hunt Webster Kalas Kelly

Brownhill Pack Walsh Da Silva

            Paterson

     Weimann or Taylor

The reason I choose Da Silva on the left in that scenario is because Kelly Da Silva is as close as we get to Magnússon Bryan which helped with defensive stability IMO.

Likewise Brownhill on the right- ideally to get that compactness you'd have in a way Wright Brownhill but perhaps Hunt and Brownhill could bring something different- bit of asymmetric shape maybe.

Paterson behind Weimann or Taylor depends on which of those you think is best suited to the Reid role- one thing for sure it isn't Diedhiou and I wouldn't see Paterson Diedhiou in the 4-4-1-1 working at all- different types of player, definitely couldn't dovetail comfortably IMO.

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I would love to have the old JP back but for a player to be so far off his best you have to wonder if he was going through a purple patch and this is the normality for him, or if he genuinely is out of form. 

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15 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

If we are to go down that road- and he should play as a pure number 10 and nothing else. The best 4-4-1-1 configuration with current personnel, from when Brownhill back let's say as I don't see us reverting back tomorrow but we'll see.

             Maenpaa

Hunt Webster Kalas Kelly

Brownhill Pack Walsh Da Silva

            Paterson

     Weimann or Taylor

The reason I choose Da Silva on the left in that scenario is because Kelly Da Silva is as close as we get to Magnússon Bryan which helped with defensive stability IMO.

Likewise Brownhill on the right- ideally to get that compactness you'd have in a way Wright Brownhill but perhaps Hunt and Brownhill could bring something different- bit of asymmetric shape maybe.

Paterson behind Weimann or Taylor depends on which of those you think is best suited to the Reid role- one thing for sure it isn't Diedhiou and I wouldn't see Paterson Diedhiou in the 4-4-1-1 working at all- different types of player, definitely couldn't dovetail comfortably IMO.

Weimann or Taylor up front - have we ever had two more woeful attacking options...

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I must blink my eyes too often and for too long because I haven't had any glimpses of Paterson showing any form. Pack likewise.

Two players so miserably out of form puts a big strain on the others. Add to them Wiemann, Diedhiou, and others inconsistent, it's easy to understand why we are so bad.

At the rate we are dropping down the table, I'd understand if Vyner wanted to stay at Rotherham who at least have a team!

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5 minutes ago, AshtonGreat said:

Weimann or Taylor up front - have we ever had two more woeful attacking options...

9ish goals in 60~ something league appearances between them for City. Take from that as you will 

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6 minutes ago, AshtonGreat said:

Blunter than a broken pencil

Not exactly inspiring, what happened to the days when we played JP up top? Was he even worse? 

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4 hours ago, Gratbot said:

I've been debating since Saturday about whether to start a new JP thread or not.

Rightly or wrongly, he's this year's scapegoat. I accept that he has been, at times, woefully out of form for almost 12 months now.

Despite that I can see why Johnson is persevering with him. When on form he is without doubt our best and most creative player in the squad and and up there with the best in the division. People talk about how pivotal Reid was to our play and they're correct, but JP was just as crucial in that number 10 role behind him. The timing of his virus was awful and I don't think he was really given long enough to recover and come back at full strength which could go a long way to explaining his poor form in the first half of the year.

He's had a full preseason to rebuild strength now and some fans are refusing to see it but I am seeing glimpses of him returning to his old self and I think LJ is too. For the record, I don't agree with him being shoehorned in at left mid. I think he's wasted out there and impacts the team negatively as he doesn't help out the fullbacks in the way that our other wingers do. His best position is, and always has been in the hole behind an intelligent and hard working striker. His first few performances this season were bad and he came into criticism rightly so, but he has picked up in his last few performance and at Leeds on Saturday it was a poor attacking performance from the team but I thought he looked the most likely to make something happen. We saw a few of his trademark turns and weaving in and out of players. He didn't assist and he didn't score but I found his performance encouraging and has given me some confidence that he's returning to form. 

It's time for Johnson to stop chopping and changing, play his favourite 4-4-1-1 formation and give JP and another forward a run of games together and let them build up a partnership. I think the most likely player is Weimann but I'd be just as happy with Matty. 

All I'm asking from the anti-Paterson brigade is that they don't moan and write the game off as soon as they see him in the starting line up but try and wipe from their memories his 2018 form and try and judge his current performances on their individual merits. I genuinely believe he's the key to our turnaround.

Thanks, Jamie.

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36 minutes ago, Sturny said:

9ish goals in 60~ something league appearances between them for City. Take from that as you will 

Is this in all apearances or just League?

If it's all...add 8 or 9 assists- need to take that into account IMO. Also it's 10 goals not 9.

Edited by Mr Popodopolous

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3 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Is this in all apearances or just League?

If it's all...add 8 or 9 assists- need to take that into account IMO. Also it's 10 goals not 9.

:laugh: 

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2 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

You laugh, but...as an auxiliary striker say 10 goals and 9 assists for a third striker sort of option isn't that uncommon at this level- as a rotation option say.

I'm sure the rest of the league is jealous of those attacking options... 

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7 minutes ago, Sturny said:

I'm sure the rest of the league is jealous of those attacking options... 

As a sole rotation striker, that is not uncommon- the problem is it's across 2!

Putting that aside, could be argued we don't give them- any of our strikers- the right sort of service best suited to them- and certainly not consistently.

Edited by Mr Popodopolous

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1 hour ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

If we are to go down that road- and he should play as a pure number 10 and nothing else. The best 4-4-1-1 configuration with current personnel, from when Brownhill back let's say as I don't see us reverting back tomorrow but we'll see.

             Maenpaa

Hunt Webster Kalas Kelly

Brownhill Pack Walsh Da Silva

            Paterson

     Weimann or Taylor

The reason I choose Da Silva on the left in that scenario is because Kelly Da Silva is as close as we get to Magnússon Bryan which helped with defensive stability IMO.

Likewise Brownhill on the right- ideally to get that compactness you'd have in a way Wright Brownhill but perhaps Hunt and Brownhill could bring something different- bit of asymmetric shape maybe.

Paterson behind Weimann or Taylor depends on which of those you think is best suited to the Reid role- one thing for sure it isn't Diedhiou and I wouldn't see Paterson Diedhiou in the 4-4-1-1 working at all- different types of player, definitely couldn't dovetail comfortably IMO.

Is not Brownhill banned after getting sent off v Leeds?

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7 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

As a sole rotation striker, that is not uncommon- the problem is it's across 2!

Putting that aside, could be argued we don't give them- any of our strikers- the right sort of service and certainly not consistently.

One of the many problems we have to sort out 

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Just now, Dolman Block B said:

Is not Brownhill banned after getting sent off v Leeds?

Yeah- I was thinking a game ahead tbh, because I can't see LJ reverting to it on Wednesday. He is banned yeah.

Moving forward, that would be the closest personnel/shape to our best football of last season IMO- when Smith and Wright return that would broaden the options further.

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As op said, Paterson is important for us, sure he is a good player and I really hope that he shows it. This season he has not been good, If he scores think his confidence is coming back. Where is Watkins? When we were in a god run he was in the team. Most people here did not like him but I think he was good. Scored and was going forward, not Messi but I think he gave the team something.

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5 hours ago, Gratbot said:

I've been debating since Saturday about whether to start a new JP thread or not.

Rightly or wrongly, he's this year's scapegoat. I accept that he has been, at times, woefully out of form for almost 12 months now.

Despite that I can see why Johnson is persevering with him. When on form he is without doubt our best and most creative player in the squad and and up there with the best in the division. People talk about how pivotal Reid was to our play and they're correct, but JP was just as crucial in that number 10 role behind him. The timing of his virus was awful and I don't think he was really given long enough to recover and come back at full strength which could go a long way to explaining his poor form in the first half of the year.

He's had a full preseason to rebuild strength now and some fans are refusing to see it but I am seeing glimpses of him returning to his old self and I think LJ is too. For the record, I don't agree with him being shoehorned in at left mid. I think he's wasted out there and impacts the team negatively as he doesn't help out the fullbacks in the way that our other wingers do. His best position is, and always has been in the hole behind an intelligent and hard working striker. His first few performances this season were bad and he came into criticism rightly so, but he has picked up in his last few performance and at Leeds on Saturday it was a poor attacking performance from the team but I thought he looked the most likely to make something happen. We saw a few of his trademark turns and weaving in and out of players. He didn't assist and he didn't score but I found his performance encouraging and has given me some confidence that he's returning to form. 

It's time for Johnson to stop chopping and changing, play his favourite 4-4-1-1 formation and give JP and another forward a run of games together and let them build up a partnership. I think the most likely player is Weimann but I'd be just as happy with Matty. 

All I'm asking from the anti-Paterson brigade is that they don't moan and write the game off as soon as they see him in the starting line up but try and wipe from their memories his 2018 form and try and judge his current performances on their individual merits. I genuinely believe he's the key to our turnaround.

I find myself asking why is he out of form, and certainly for such a long time, most if not all players go through periods where their form dips but with JP even by your own posting has gone on for a long time now, you have to ask does he want to be here, or is it a lack of desire, if so why is this, hate to again bring up the manager but how many players have left us that were so say in LJ's eyes not good enough for us only to leave us and go on to be much better players than we ever saw them play for us. Would not be surprised to see JP go to another club and thrive, that would tell you that maybe it is the LJ effect and some players don't want to play for him because they are played out of position or not given a decent run in the side.

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"Most creative player" - debeatable.

There was a decent home game, may of been Stoke where I decided to count how many forward passes Pato made or attempted.

It was less than 5 across 90 minutes.

With those kind of statistics that really make me question why play him over O'Dowda. Who at least helps Kelly out (When LM) and plays the same role of  for the RoI in the #10 role.

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36 minutes ago, Fuber said:

"Most creative player" - debeatable.

There was a decent home game, may of been Stoke where I decided to count how many forward passes Pato made or attempted.

It was less than 5 across 90 minutes.

With those kind of statistics that really make me question why play him over O'Dowda. Who at least helps Kelly out (When LM) and plays the same role of  for the RoI in the #10 role.

He bottles tackles aswell

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11 hours ago, redsince1994 said:

Only player to look to get the ball forwards vs Preston after he came on and wasn't... bad? against Leeds. Definitely better than he has been but still a long way to go to be in the starting line up for me. The Patto of 2017 would do wonders for us currently.

I thought he looked like he was finding some confidence v Stoke in second half, when Walsh fed him the ball early...with that bit more time / space.  Versus Preston I actually saw him running back at full-tilt when he came on.  Didn’t see Leeds.

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11 hours ago, Gratbot said:

I've been debating since Saturday about whether to start a new JP thread or not.

Rightly or wrongly, he's this year's scapegoat. I accept that he has been, at times, woefully out of form for almost 12 months now.

Despite that I can see why Johnson is persevering with him. When on form he is without doubt our best and most creative player in the squad and and up there with the best in the division. People talk about how pivotal Reid was to our play and they're correct, but JP was just as crucial in that number 10 role behind him. The timing of his virus was awful and I don't think he was really given long enough to recover and come back at full strength which could go a long way to explaining his poor form in the first half of the year.

He's had a full preseason to rebuild strength now and some fans are refusing to see it but I am seeing glimpses of him returning to his old self and I think LJ is too. For the record, I don't agree with him being shoehorned in at left mid. I think he's wasted out there and impacts the team negatively as he doesn't help out the fullbacks in the way that our other wingers do. His best position is, and always has been in the hole behind an intelligent and hard working striker. His first few performances this season were bad and he came into criticism rightly so, but he has picked up in his last few performance and at Leeds on Saturday it was a poor attacking performance from the team but I thought he looked the most likely to make something happen. We saw a few of his trademark turns and weaving in and out of players. He didn't assist and he didn't score but I found his performance encouraging and has given me some confidence that he's returning to form. 

It's time for Johnson to stop chopping and changing, play his favourite 4-4-1-1 formation and give JP and another forward a run of games together and let them build up a partnership. I think the most likely player is Weimann but I'd be just as happy with Matty. 

All I'm asking from the anti-Paterson brigade is that they don't moan and write the game off as soon as they see him in the starting line up but try and wipe from their memories his 2018 form and try and judge his current performances on their individual merits. I genuinely believe he's the key to our turnaround.

He was decent against leeds; caused them all sorts of problems!

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Personally, I think Pato's 'golden era' in 2017 is overstated. Sure, he had a few good games. But I don't think it was any more than that. I'm reminded of the situation in which many viewed Pisano as our saviour after his long lay-off last season.

I just can't see Pato doing anything meaningful for this club any more. That said, if Johnson keeps picking him, I hope he's right and I'm wrong. 

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I know it's getting back to basics but were not a team on the front foot at this time.

Against Millwall. Can you imagine that they will have anyone playing that wont put their foot in? For me Pato just doesn't have that in his game. Ok no doubt he has some skill and on his day can produce a bit of magic.

If it gets tough he hides, tends to time his arrival at the ball in what should be a 50/50 late, meaning he doesn't have to make a tackle.

Sorry but not my type of player, if we end up in a dog fight come the end of the season would you prefer Pats or a Steve Galliers?

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With Walsh presumably starting in CM I'd rather have COD in the 10 rather than Paterson. I'd be worried with Paterson and Walsh in our midfield whereas COD can offer more defensively and can cover more ground than Pato.

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5 hours ago, RobintheRed Red said:

He bottles tackles aswell

Closes down much quicker though. I've never seen Pato further back than Kelly when tracking his man. O'Dowdas work rate is more of an asset off the ball, especially in a strangled system with which we're struggling to even retain possession at the moment.

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What a pleasant change to see a well argued post and thread.

U have been critical of JP all season but noone wants more than I to see him return to his best. 

His performance at Leeds on and off the ball was his best this season. 

We will watch his impact tonight with interest and hope Ljs judgement proves as successful as it usually does 

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3 hours ago, Hampshire Red said:

We will watch his impact tonight with interest and hope Ljs judgement proves as successful as it usually does 

...So very rarely then?

I count 2 off the top of my head in 3 years in charge. Tammy. Bobby.

And then a fair few negatives to his judgement I.e. Ayling, Freeman, Magnússon, Pisano, Wright, Baker, Djuric, Engvall, Diedhiou.

Who either have improved elsewhere, or are not or have not been utilised to their full extent. Or don't simply suit the 'system'.

Whatever the latter is this season.

Edited by Fuber
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Really impressive tonight. One of our only decent players first half and really played well second. Looks fitter than he has and stronger. He really did work his socks off tonight. Still a bit frustrating at times with his final decision near the box, but I have seen a gradual improvement from Pato, and i believe he's now the player he was pre Christmas last year. 

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42 minutes ago, JonDolman said:

Really impressive tonight.

Much better tonight

One of our only decent players first half and really played well second.

Agree

Looks fitter than he has and stronger.

Yes, he battled for balls, ran hard and sparked the touchline scuffle!

He really did work his socks off tonight. Still a bit frustrating at times with his final decision near the box,

Yes, one occasion where he had chance to open himself up and feed the overlapping Eliasson (I think), but a heavy touch trying to work shooting position on right foot, and chance lost

but I have seen a gradual improvement from Pato, and i believe he's now moving towards being the player he was pre Christmas last year. 

 

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OP is lengthy and well written.

Unfortunately, it's also wholly wrong.

Paterson remains an utter waste of space and the quicker we're rid the better.

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