Satisfied With Midtable ?

[longyears]

Please explain why we should be. I recently returned from visiting friends in Huddersfield. They have a football ground about the same size as ours and equally appalling parking. They are owned by a rich man but he is not even close to SL in terms of wealth. The have a smaller population by far and have to compete with other top clubs who are within easy travelling distance - both the Manchester clubs just for starters. They are in their second season in the Prem. So why should we be content with mid table mediocrity in the Championship. Please explain !!

[East End Old Boy]

Think it’s proven you can’t necessarily buy your way out of this division, you need a lot of consistent luck, for instance look at Cardiff and with Tomlin!

We had enormous luck in 2008 and were looking good last season until it deserted us.

So not satisfied but, perhaps, content at this moment in time, although looking for another step up by the end of the season!

[Mr Popodopolous]

I don't have time to go through a load but picking a club and saying 'Do it that way' isn't as simple as that.

Take Huddersfield- an example your mates have surely explained to you and explained well.

They went a different route, appointed Wagner and got in German players and others but players from Bundesliga and Bundesliga II (and some assorted others).

They had good leeway with FFP, loads in fact, about £32m in an allowable loss- smaller club yes, but they were clever. Appointing Wagner opened up possibilities that we don't have with LJ- insider knowledge of bargains in the German market for one. They also appointed Wagner the prior November, November 2015 or thereabouts which gave over half a season to bed in methods, to get the players to fit the system.

You see, Championship and English League players- well I'm thinking the top 2 divisions maybe 'proven' but they're also pricy and not always as good as it says on the ticket! Our (UK) market certainly can be, and Huddersfield did it a different way because of this. They also got a lot of young players thereby saving on cost, from a mix of here, Europe and lower divisions.

[The Dolman Pragmatist]

30 minutes ago, longyears said:

Please explain why we should be. I recently returned from visiting friends in Huddersfield. They have a football ground about the same size as ours and equally appalling parking. They are owned by a rich man but he is not even close to SL in terms of wealth. The have a smaller population by far and have to compete with other top clubs who are within easy travelling distance - both the Manchester clubs just for starters. They are in their second season in the Prem. So why should we be content with mid table mediocrity in the Championship. Please explain !!

Because only three teams can go up, and because there are several squads with better resources with us.  Yes, I would be satisfied with mid table, but I would be happy for something higher, delighted if it was the play offs, and delirious if we got promotion.

[Alessandro]

We are one of 4 teams in the division I believe that don't have a premier league history.

I'm not even sure we have a premier league infrastructure yet, ground maybe. 

We are still a pretty small fish in this pond, whether we like it or not.

Can we support premier league football one day, yes. But I think we are all realising it's going to take a monumental effort, something extraordinary, as Huddersfield showed.

And I believe those fairytales, like Swindon and Blackpool and Huddersfield on meagre budgets is just getting less and less.

People like to quote Brighton and Bournemouth, but they spent. 

So content? No. Pragmatic? Yes. Ambitious? Of course, but until the club matches that ambition, really matches it, why waste your energy getting worked up about it.

[Davefevs]

4 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

I don't have time to go through a load but picking a club and saying 'Do it that way' isn't as simple as that.

Take Huddersfield.

They went a different route, appointed Wagner and got in German players and others but players from Bundesliga and Bundesliga II (and some assorted others).

They had good leeway with FFP, loads in fact, about £32m in an allowable loss- smaller club yes, but they were clever. Appointing Wagner opened up possibilities that we don't have with LJ- insider knowledge of bargains in the German market for one. They also appointed Wagner the prior November, November 2015 or thereabouts which gave over half a season to bed in methods, to get the players to fit the system.

You see, Championship and English League players- well I'm thinking the top 2 divisions maybe 'proven' but they're also pricy and not always as good as it says on the ticket! Our (UK) market certainly can be, and Huddersfield did it a different way because of this. They also got a lot of young players thereby saving on cost, from a mix of here, Europe and lower divisions.

Super reply Mr P. Have a fist bump  from me!

That German Market (not to be confused with the one in Cabot Circus) was untapped, and undervalued, and the likes of Kachunga and Hefele (not Hegeler) were a great example of what was around either on loan or cheap.  Of course it took a manager like Wagner to tap into it.

You don’t get the intel that Wagner has without seeing these players in the flesh.  MA’s database and funnel can’t do that, not without over-reliance on stats in a game that struggles to correlate stats with results on pitch or individual performances.  Wagner knew from his own eyes the type of player who could make an impact in the Champ having had 6 months here to suss it out.

You could argue that our Swedish experiment was therefore well-intentioned.  It was, but not calibrated as a league versus our own, because LJ / MA spent none of their careers there.  It seems fairly obvious to me that someone ripping it up in Sweden League 1 might not rip it up here.  But likewise a German in BD2, might have a better chance in our second tier.  Of course it doesn’t always work like that, but Wagner would certainly have a better idea than LJ / MA.  That was Wagner’s USP.  Same with Farke, now delivering the benefits of understanding the demands of the Championship in his second season.  Wonder if Pukki came out of MA’s database ?

 

[marcofisher]

If you had offered mid table after selling Bryan, Reid and Flint in the summer I'm sure most would have accepted it. We still have a very young squad, they aren't all just going to become top level players overnight with a fair few new players coming this season and then players like Eliasson only really having his proper first seasons now. We now have players brought in on longer contracts hopefully if we can get to a mid table finish for this season add some quality in the summer with none of our bigger names leaving we will be in a much better position for next year. 

 

We are still on the right track, even if results or performances haven't been spectacular, the hub of players we have should only improve. 

[Davefevs]

12 minutes ago, marcofisher said:

If you had offered mid table after selling Bryan, Reid and Flint in the summer I'm sure most would have accepted it. We still have a very young squad, they aren't all just going to become top level players overnight with a fair few new players coming this season and then players like Eliasson only really having his proper first seasons now. We now have players brought in on longer contracts hopefully if we can get to a mid table finish for this season add some quality in the summer with none of our bigger names leaving we will be in a much better position for next year. 

 

We are still on the right track, even if results or performances haven't been spectacular, the hub of players we have should only improve. 

Sensible answer. 

[cidered abroad]

I deliberately posted on here at the start of the summer that I wanted a year of consolidation between eighth and fifteenth. A season in which we could give more Academy boys some game time at Championship level, not under pressure for play offs and relegation.

We need a WDDL sequence throughout the season. Not this boom and especially the bust where we go a quarter of the season for eleven points out of thirty six that sends us ten places down the league.

[Shtanley]

Depends how we exist in "mid table". If we had several of our players from our academy and played expansive football I'd have no problem with us finishing in or near to the top half. 

I'm always quite envious of Crewe fans. Their team put out an entire 18 of academy graduates last season. 

[myol'man]

Better than bottom 6 innit?

[Red-Robbo]

2 minutes ago, myol'man said:

Better than bottom 6 innit?

Pretty much how I feel.

I will be satisfied if we can maintain mid-table with our inconsistent side in a season where our three top performers have gone and (other than Webster perhaps) I don't think we have replaced with as-good players.

One narrow win against the bottom side doesn't give me full belief we're back in the game though....   

[elhombrecito]

It's not really a case of being satisfied with a mid-table finish, but more about being realistic that a mid-table finish for a club of our size and resources is actually pretty decent.

I tend to just think about it in terms of improvement from the previous season. Therefore, as we've finished higher than the year before in the previous four seasons, I am generally content with where we are as a club.  Obviously, to continue this trend, we need to finish in the top 10 this year which is still a realistic possibility as, despite our recent performances, we're only two points away from that.

Of course we should aspire to more, and I'm sure that everybody at the club does, but there are 23 other teams in this division who also aspire for more - and the majority of those 23 have better resources than us.

[The Fat Controller]

There are some fantastic, well-thought-out realistic replies in this thread. 

['Orns]

As others have said, it's a realistic finish for us. Look at the size of the clubs above us, there are some massive, recently successful, football clubs in there

Anyone looking at the list of runners and riders in August would have realised that a mid table finish was probably going to be the best we got this season, unless we had a 'once in a lifetime' season like Huddersfield did the other year. There was a big discussion about it back in the summer

I was hoping for a season where we weren't looking over our shoulder, which we haven't been as yet, where we may threaten the play offs, which we have done, sensible recruitment, jury out, and another year of bringing the younger lads through. It's glass half full, just, for me still

As I said on a previous thread this week, in my 30+ years of being a City fan we have been a Div 2 / Div 3 yo yo club. Mid table in Div 2 has felt like a long way off for many of my years. Right now I'll take it 

[Bar BS3]

1 hour ago, longyears said:

Please explain why we should be. I recently returned from visiting friends in Huddersfield. They have a football ground about the same size as ours and equally appalling parking. They are owned by a rich man but he is not even close to SL in terms of wealth. The have a smaller population by far and have to compete with other top clubs who are within easy travelling distance - both the Manchester clubs just for starters. They are in their second season in the Prem. So why should we be content with mid table mediocrity in the Championship. Please explain !!

There is a difference between being “satisfied with mid-table” and understanding what’s currently realistic. 

The Huddersfield story is a great one, very inspirational to many Championship clubs, out of interest, do you have any friends in Sunderland, Coventry, Stoke, Birmingham, Sheffield, Nottingham, to name just a few examples of places with clubs that also realise how difficult it is to mirror Huddersfield’s example..? 

[Davefevs]

47 minutes ago, cidered abroad said:

I deliberately posted on here at the start of the summer that I wanted a year of consolidation between eighth and fifteenth. A season in which we could give more Academy boys some game time at Championship level, not under pressure for play offs and relegation.

We need a WDDL sequence throughout the season. Not this boom and especially the bust where we go a quarter of the season for eleven points out of thirty six that sends us ten places down the league.

I went 6th - 16th, but with same sentiments as you.

[Lorenzos Only Goal]

Yes, being that we didn't build in last season and instead sold all of the assets from last season.  I'm happy with mid table, as long as I can see a number of decent prospects in the under 23s and some progress in their development I'm happy.  If the development squad becomes a dry talent pool then it's money better spent in other ways.

[Abraham Romanovich]

37 minutes ago, Chris_Brown said:

There are some fantastic, well-thought-out realistic replies in this thread. 

Sorry to buck the trend but here goes.

All teams lose players bar Real Madrid- the replacements to date appear mediocre at best.

We appear to have lost our identity and focus, the football is dull and the atmosphere terrible..

Mid table is not an aspiration it is a bare minimum and whilst others would be content with this I regard it as a failure .

[Robbored]

10th would do me - progress on last season.

[Bristol is red]

5 minutes ago, Robbored said:

10th would do me - progress on last season.

I have to agree on that, season on season improvement is a worthy and realistic goal for us.

[cidered abroad]

I would add to my previous post, that I want to see a City team playing with passion, beginning to look like a team that works for each other, that doesn't lose easily, able to hold their heads up in defeat. Only one big money departure per season, not three to six as last summer to satisfy FFP.

Can it be done? That's how Alan Dicks did it after he had got through the first three/four years. (Apart from the fact that no FFP and not having to sell anyone each summer)

[Redstart]

I think its reasonable to accept that not everybody wants to watch Premiership Football - if they did who would even bother with going to a Non League game. I think a lot of fans go to watch a performance and be entertained - the pity at the moment is our current performances are dire - when I think of the exciting football we played in the first half of last season that is what I want to see - does that have to be in the Premiership - no not for me.

We currently play in a league where pretty much any team can beat any other team in the division on their day - its basically a competitive league. That's great, we are bringing the kids on through the academy, that's great too - is the Premiership competitive - I don't think so, you could probably name the top 12 before the season even kicks off, I was interested that Huddersfield were mentioned, 2 wins all season and probably a favourite for relegation, would I want to see that week in and week out - no thanks. Would our kids get games in the Premiership - again I don't think so. I feel we would end up just buying a load of Journeymen as we have in the past - I don't want the Club to go there again.

So to answer the OP - if we were playing well, putting on a show and we were mid table I'd be happy, I'd accept realistic, especially with the gaps we know we have in the current squad. My issue is more around the standard of the football we are now 'enduring' - regretfully if this continues I'll be happy we are once again a Championship team next season but we wont be renewing our Season Tickets for sure.

[swanker]

At this moment in time I’d take a mid table finish. From what I’ve seen so far this season I’ll be surprised if we finish that high. 

 

[054123]

I could take average performances giving an average return, what I don’t like and I think is questionable, is performances or spells of a top 6 calibre  (therefor proving we have it in us) followed by performances or spells that are of a bottom 3 calibre.

I think that it’s not a very good coach that allows these swings of form to happen as they obviously aren’t in control of the situation otherwise we would see the good form on a more consistent basis 

[JamesBCFC]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

I went 6th - 16th, but with same sentiments as you.

I think my prediction for this season was 10th-14th, but thinking that if everything clicked we'd have an outside shot at the playoffs.

Clearly it isn't a case of "everything clicking" at this point in time, but I fully stand by that prediction.

I still think 10th-14th is realistic, though if making the prediction now I'd maybe adjust it to 12th-16th. However, we are close enough to the top half that I don't believe that necessary, and I maintain that if things click for us we could still be an outside shout for sneaking into the playoffs.

 

I don't think the playoffs are particularly likely though, but much moreso than relegation would be.

I also said I thought this would be a rare "dull season" for us (in that we don't really trouble relegation, nor threaten promotion). Don't think we have had one of those for the past decade, that said, there's been plenty of drama on here as a result of the manner in which our results have happened- 4 wins in a row, shortly followed by 4-5 losses in a row.

 

I'd be content with midtable for this season, we sold a few key players, and IMO the replacements (in 2 of the 3 cases) are either better or have the potential to be better if they aren't yet. The one I'm now unsure on is Weimann for Reid, but plenty of time to see what happens.

[Guest]

Tough division to get out of, and I honestly don't see why people think we should be challenging anywhere near the top with where we are overall at the moment. I would happily take mid table and some decent entertaining football (even with mixed results), then build on it with a couple of upgrades here and there and become a solid top 10 side, then have a bit more of a go at it. My worry is we won't, and just hope to keep bringing through the youngsters and up being a club all about making money without ever going to the Prem.

[CodeRed]

Happy with mid table, the club is moving forward off the field on all fronts.

On the field ? We're not moving forward, we're churning over players, a few academy players may well come through like Kelly and the fees received will help subsidise the losses - and buy yet more one's for the future. But under LJ we're just not building anything. We'll stay up I'm sure, sign yet more players in Jan and the summer , more players will be sold....in 2 years we'll be up to 60 or 70 signings, LJ will still be chopping and changing and coming out with cringworthy phrases like. Giving them a cuddle.

Basically LJ is a fraud who is making it up as he goes, as Warnock astutely observed he talkes a good game. We are never going to develop to the next level under LJ..

[BS4 on Tour...]

3 hours ago, Alessandro said:

We are one of 4 teams in the division I believe that don't have a premier league history.

I'm not even sure we have a premier league infrastructure yet, ground maybe. 

We are still a pretty small fish in this pond, whether we like it or not.

Can we support premier league football one day, yes. But I think we are all realising it's going to take a monumental effort, something extraordinary, as Huddersfield showed.

And I believe those fairytales, like Swindon and Blackpool and Huddersfield on meagre budgets is just getting less and less.

People like to quote Brighton and Bournemouth, but they spent. 

So content? No. Pragmatic? Yes. Ambitious? Of course, but until the club matches that ambition, really matches it, why waste your energy getting worked up about it.

I think there are five clubs currently in the championship who haven’t been in the premier league. Bournemouth didn’t spend anything significant on a player in the season before they got promoted to the premier league....someone posted a summary of their signings on here and only one was over £1m and the majority of the others were less than £500k. But I totally agree with your last sentence - It doesn’t really matter what the ambitions of the fans are....the ambitions and objectives of the owner and his direct employees are the ones that count because they ain’t gonna make any decisions based on what they may have read on OTIB or Twitter or what they hear at a fans’ forum meeting etc....

[Kingswood Robin]

If you offered me mid table now, I'd bite your hand off.

A snapshot of the table shows us about halfway, but mid table football it is not. I just hope we can cobble a few points together between now and January and stay a healthy distance from the bottom 3. We must bring in someone in the transfer window that can help us to start scoring or 2019 could be horrible.