Lee's after match interview

[RedM]

Personally I like a bit of truth and honest in all walks of life, praise if praise in due and constructively criticise. One is worth nothing without the other as far as I’m concerned. But above all that is my deep sense of fairness. Was it fair to pick out Hordour/Kelly out from the pack, no it bloody well wasn’t. 

I agree we don’t know what goes on behind closed doors. LJ must be feeling the pressure no matter what anyone says, lots of the reason why is is under pressure is his own making of course. I guess you really see people’s true colours in times of adversity, it’s easy to lap up the praise when things are rosy but you have to be equally (or more so as of course it isn’t easy) be up for the tough times.

I’m not for one moment suggesting LJ has these tendencies but in my experience a lot of bullying etc from one person to another steams from jealousy. 

[exAtyeoMax]

1 minute ago, billywedlock said:

You can pull him over privately and give him hell . But you cannot pick him up publicly like that. It is dire man management. Managers only really ever do that if it is a player that really is creating problems behind the scenes.

Look at the way Klopp defended the undefendable performance of Karius. Publicly Klopp would not say anything.

Any player will tell you, they dislike that behaviour from the manager. A lot. 

Cotts always blamed the pitch even though you could tell he was fuming. Would never call anyone out in public. The players had a lot of respect for him.

[BobBobSuperBob]

Just now, Olé said:

It's bollocks, Morrison is a wily old campaigner who gets the better of even the best defenders (and some Prem ones a couple of seasons ago in the FA Cup).

Yes Lloyd was naive to drop off him expecting him to control it on the edge of the box and then close him down, rather than challenge immediately to prevent the header on, but someone still needs to track the actual runner from midfield or step up into his lane and disrupt the run. Neither of which were for Lloyd to do as full back.

As @bobbyhutchscurlymullet said, whoever missed that (and lets be honest we've had weeks of them all standing off opposition runs) bears as much if not more responsibility, but our head coach takes the easy way out by picking on Lloyd. Same as he has always done with Eliasson and Magnússon before him. What's the connection?

Unless I’m going cuckoo Rob (And I havnt watched the goal) I thought just as the diagonal was delivered Morison gave LLoyd a little nudge which put him off balance an unable to jump / challenge

Only a Alby type little nudge , old master against young player 

Can’t blame LK for that

[exAtyeoMax]

2 minutes ago, RedM said:

Personally I like a bit of truth and honest in all walks of life, praise if praise in due and constructively criticise. One is worth nothing without the other as far as I’m concerned. But above all that is my deep sense of fairness. Was it fair to pick out Hordour/Kelly out from the pack, no it bloody well wasn’t. 

I agree we don’t know what goes on behind closed doors. LJ must be feeling the pressure no matter what anyone says, lots of the reason why is is under pressure is his own making of course. I guess you really see people’s true colours in times of adversity, it’s easy to lap up the praise when things are rosy but you have to be equally (or more so as of course it isn’t easy) be up for the tough times.

I’m not for one moment suggesting LJ has these tendencies but in my experience a lot of bullying etc from one person to another steams from jealousy. 

And insecurity. 

 

[cidered abroad]

2 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

Unless I’m going cuckoo Rob (And I havnt watched the goal) I thought just as the diagonal was delivered Morison gave LLoyd a little nudge which put him off balance an unable to jump / challenge

Only a Alby type little nudge , old master against young player 

Can’t blame LK for that

Lloyd had Morrison and a midfielder pushing forward to deal with. Where were the other back four? Where were midfielder to stay with the runner who scored?

Only a crap manager would pick on the youngest player after that. Just like he did with Taylor Moore two years ago and Hörður at Preston.

Weak personality, inept motivator, dreadful tactician.

Johnson is slowly killing the support for this club.

[cidered abroad]

4 minutes ago, Badger08 said:

I really don't know what to say after that.  I've been a fan of Johnson as you all know, but it's becoming very difficult to argue for him at the moment. 

I've got to say, some of the stats that have appeared on here of late really do tell a story.  I've moved from a Johnson supporter, to fully being on the fence.  Its a real shame as he actually says (said) everything that I wanted to hear,  and he was actually delivering on that, but it is clearly starting to decline and I don't think he actually knows the answer.  I don't feel that Mark Ashton can shy away from his responsibility either.  

What confuses me is the style of play.  He clearly had a way, a new Bristol City way of playing.  We were playing some of the best football that I've seen in a number of years, we outplayed Manchester United and gave one of the best teams the Premier League have seen a hard game.  We played attractive, high press, one-touch football.  This is why I am now confused, and where I struggle to now fight LJ's corner. 

What has happened to that identity?  Why have we stopped playing that way?  I know that we tailed off the season before, but I felt that was due to the lack of players who could cover in each of the positions.  We could not sustain that throughout the whole season, but I was sure that we could build upon that.  The loss of Bryan, Flint and Reid has hit us hard, however, it wasn't as if we didn't see it coming.  Even the club was telling us to prepare.

I get that the players that LJ might want aren't available or want to come to us, or their transfer fee is too high, or wages they want are too much. I get that it takes time to find these jigsaw pieces, but I do feel as though this January window is LJ's last chance.   

Can anyone answer this question?  Who is responsible for the identification and searching for players? Is it LJ or is it MA? Or is MA solely responsible for the negotiation or salary and transfer fees? Its a bit of a grey area for me.  

If it was your money, would you allow Johnson to spend any of it in January?

Simple answer. NO.

[Son of Fred]

17 hours ago, nickolas said:

Is relegation special??

If were to go down considering monies spent I'd say that would be special..

An achievement even.

[Olé]

15 minutes ago, Badger08 said:

What confuses me is the style of play.  He clearly had a way, a new Bristol City way of playing.  We were playing some of the best football that I've seen in a number of years, we outplayed Manchester United and gave one of the best teams the Premier League have seen a hard game.  We played attractive, high press, one-touch football.  This is why I am now confused, and where I struggle to now fight LJ's corner. 

What has happened to that identity?  Why have we stopped playing that way?

I think the truth is there was no style of play. There was Bobby Reid who off the back of the intense physical training with Back2Action in preparation for last season (which let's remember, only very few pro footballers are doing, and several play in the Premiership) led the line and the press for City in a way no player of the LJ era has managed. Similarly his movement between the lines, quick feet and ability to offer an outlet to midfielders, was essential to the one touch football too. HE produced an identity.

Occams razor is required here. There isn't some grand mystery about the total disappearance of an LJ tactical masterplan overnight, because that would be illogical and hard to explain if the tactics really were valid and sustainable. The obvious answer is something much more simple: there is no mystery, as there were no sustainable tactics, just a player whose efforts and ability made everything work. That surely must be a simpler explanation for why his 40 odd other signings rarely reproduce this identity.

[Son of Fred]

8 minutes ago, cidered abroad said:

If it was your money, would you allow Johnson to spend any of it in January?

Simple answer. NO.

He if gets anywhere near my 'pension pot there will most definitely be trouble..

[NickJ]

19 minutes ago, billywedlock said:

BBC "So Niclas what do you think of that game ?"

" Well I was told to get the crosses into the box early, but you know young Lee Johnson, he's cost a few goals there, he forgot to put any forwards on . It's disappointing really, but that's going to happen with young coaches " 

Very amusing and oh so true. 

It was clear from early on that as good as the crosses were, their giant centre halfs were going to out muscle Fammy all day long.

5 minutes ago, Badger08 said:

 

Not doubt about it, LJ is a fantastic coach, 

Really?

[BobBobSuperBob]

15 minutes ago, Badger08 said:

I really don't know what to say after that (Millwall game).  I've been a fan of Johnson as you all know, but it's becoming very difficult to argue for him at the moment. 

I've got to say, some of the stats that have appeared on here of late really do tell a story.  I've moved from a Johnson supporter, to fully being on the fence.  Its a real shame as he actually says (said) everything that I wanted to hear,  and he was actually delivering on that, but it is clearly starting to decline and I don't think he actually knows the answer.  I don't feel that Mark Ashton can shy away from his responsibility either.  

What confuses me is the style of play.  He clearly had a way, a new Bristol City way of playing.  We were playing some of the best football that I've seen in a number of years, we outplayed Manchester United and gave one of the best teams the Premier League have seen a hard game.  We played attractive, high press, one-touch football.  This is why I am now confused, and where I struggle to now fight LJ's corner. 

What has happened to that identity?  Why have we stopped playing that way?  I know that we tailed off the season before, but I felt that was due to the lack of players who could cover in each of the positions.  We could not sustain that throughout the whole season, but I was sure that we could build upon that.  The loss of Bryan, Flint and Reid has hit us hard, however, it wasn't as if we didn't see it coming.  Even the club was telling us to prepare.

I get that the players that LJ might want aren't available or want to come to us, or their transfer fee is too high, or wages they want are too much. I get that it takes time to find these jigsaw pieces, but I do feel as though this January window is LJ's last chance.   

Can anyone answer this question?  Who is responsible for the identification and searching for players? Is it LJ or is it MA? Or is MA solely responsible for the negotiation or salary and transfer fees? Its a bit of a grey area for me.  

I won’t cut and paste all the explanation about recruitment but this was what was said at the Q&A about the recruitment processes ,  a couple of years ago 

As close to a full explanation as I’ve heard

https://www.otib.co.uk/index.php?/topic/188725-q-and-a-tonight/&page=6

[BobBobSuperBob]

3 minutes ago, Olé said:

I think the truth is there was no style of play. There was Bobby Reid who off the back of the intense physical training with Back2Action in preparation for last season (which let's remember, only very few pro footballers are doing, and several play in the Premiership) led the line and the press for City in a way no player of the LJ era has managed. Similarly his movement between the lines, quick feet and ability to offer an outlet to midfielders, was essential to the one touch football too. HE produced an identity.

Occams razor is required here. There isn't some grand mystery about the total disappearance of an LJ tactical masterplan overnight, because that would be illogical and hard to explain if the tactics really were valid and sustainable. The obvious answer is something much more simple: there is no mystery, as there were no sustainable tactics, just a player whose efforts and ability made everything work. That is surely an easier explanation for why under LJ, 40 odd other signings have never produced it either.

Think Tammy May have had a positive effect / influence on him too Rob

Having said that , Lee clearly does deserve credit for some part of Bobbys rise at least 

[Frenchay Red]

2 minutes ago, Robert the bruce said:

He if gets anywhere near my 'pension pot there will most definitely be trouble..

Indeed, I'm glad I decided not to invest my pension pot with HL.

[NickJ]

1 minute ago, Badger08 said:

Yes, really. There is a complete difference between coach and manager. 

Of course.

The question is where is the evidence of Johnson's coaching genius?

[BobBobSuperBob]

Just now, Badger08 said:

Thanks Bob. I'm sat in work at the moment, and about to go to a meeting (obvioulsy working hard this morning), so I'll read it when I can.  What I'm trying to get at is, is LJ to blame for the signings or is MA? That will determine my current thought process I think. 

In simple terms , and they’ve all been consistent in answers to this

Players are identified by a number of methods , Scouts, Analysts / data , Lee himself

They are all then scrutinised and funnelled down into a more compact list , are watched and reported on , discussed in terms of viability , cost , dna

Lee has the final say

(Although Actually SL does as he has to sanction the spend)

[...]

1 hour ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

What I find sad is the number of  posters who are dye in wool fans who feel this way (I’m clearly one as frustrated mate)

Why ?

I think it’s because over the years we’ve seen snippets of feast , but mainly famine ....struggles and fight .... but we’ve never been or have been , in such a position to progress as a club as we have done in recent times ......and it seems like those opportunities  are ,( and have been)  wasted atm 

 

Good post.

I fear we will look back on this period, with the money, the stadium, and the support, and imagine what could have been.

The club might not have this chance, with these resources for many a year.

Why, FFS, was all this given to Johnson to piss away???

[Olé]

2 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

Lee clearly does deserve credit for some part of Bobbys rise at least 

Not an identity though is it Bob? He keeps leaning on this "identity" nonsense about a pattern of play which seems so illusive to reproduce. Yes LJ absolutely takes credit for getting Bobby to execute it, but we haven't played anything close to like we did last season at any point in this campaign, so he can go on all he wants about "getting our identity" back, there is no bloody identity, that's why the football on the pitch more or less since January or February has been so laboured, more so without Bobby. It's no great mystery.

[RedRaw]

11 minutes ago, Badger08 said:

Last season.  Where is the evidence of him being a bad coach? I'm not sure what you're trying to get at? Sorry if I'm being thick. 

He takes training......he coaches players..........he picks players.......he decides on formations........he decides on tactics.

Our play, performance, tactics, ability to attack, ability to score, ability to win have got gradually worse over the past 12 months including several performances that many have considered some of the worst they can remember.

Coach, manager......whatever you want to call him......he blagged this job and is no where near as good as he thinks he is.

Colin was spot on with his analysis of LJ

 

[NickJ]

6 minutes ago, Badger08 said:

Last season.  Where is the evidence of him being a bad coach? I'm not sure what you're trying to get at? Sorry if I'm being thick. 

P.s I didn't say he was a coaching genius, I said he was a fantastic one (IMO).  Neither of us know if he is a good for bad one, that is subjective isn't it, unless you're coached by him on a daily basis.  I'm not saying I am necessarily right, but either can you I guess.  

I see a lot of many spent on players and in recent weeks I have seen us play 4 of the weakest teams in the division for a return of 2 defeats, a draw, and a very fortuitous win, all played against a backdrop of poor to dire football.

Since Johnson completed the rebuild of his team - he's had 5 of the 3 transfer windows he said he needed after all - the football has gone backwards.

[BobBobSuperBob]

Genuine question ?

For such a good coach

How many players do people think have noticeably improved or developed in the last 3 years

How many have developed , how many stagnated, and how many gone backwards ?

 

Developed …………

Bobby , which has been discussed in another thread ……

Flint ………

 

How much of their development is purely down to LJ Is difficult to gauge 

What we have done is stall a few  , Wright , Baker, COD ………

[BobBobSuperBob]

6 minutes ago, Olé said:

Not an identity though is it Bob? He keeps leaning on this "identity" nonsense about a pattern of play which seems so illusive to reproduce. Yes LJ absolutely takes credit for getting Bobby to execute it, but we haven't played anything close to like we did last season at any point in this campaign, so he can go on all he wants about "getting our identity" back, there is no bloody identity, that's why the football on the pitch more or less since January or February has been so laboured, more so without Bobby. It's no great mystery.

Totally agree

Every word

The only time IMHO we’ve had an identity was , during Famaras injury pre Christmas last year and as you suggest this was largely influenced by , and on the back of Bobby Reid’s efforts 

[NickJ]

1 minute ago, Badger08 said:

What I'm getting at in a long-winded way, is LJ a great coach, but not such a great manager.  

What most people are getting at in a more direct way, is, he's neither!

[BobBobSuperBob]

5 minutes ago, Badger08 said:

Just spitballing here.  So, after that funneling process, lets just say 3 players come out of it. 2 join clubs with more pedigree in the league and one has a history of injury.  As a manager, do you think LJ and MA are pressured into buying players and gamble on ones way down the list. We all know managers need to win games and the pressure is on, so do you think they sometimes they roll the dice?  I know every signing is a gamble to some extent, but as a club do we have to take more gambles than most due to our stature within the league?   

We are clearly down a list in terms of pecking order compared to Clubs of better standing or willing or able to pay better wages

We thus have to look for players that we can improve , see something that others havnt , resurrect a dip in career , and get the best out of the ones we do

We should be in a position financially and status wise to attract the best of the remaining players , over the majority of Clubs outside of the prem and maybe eight or nine in this division 

[Bobfish]

33 minutes ago, Olé said:

I think the truth is there was no style of play. There was Bobby Reid who off the back of the intense physical training with Back2Action in preparation for last season (which let's remember, only very few pro footballers are doing, and several play in the Premiership) led the line and the press for City in a way no player of the LJ era has managed. Similarly his movement between the lines, quick feet and ability to offer an outlet to midfielders, was essential to the one touch football too. HE produced an identity.

Occams razor is required here. There isn't some grand mystery about the total disappearance of an LJ tactical masterplan overnight, because that would be illogical and hard to explain if the tactics really were valid and sustainable. The obvious answer is something much more simple: there is no mystery, as there were no sustainable tactics, just a player whose efforts and ability made everything work. That surely must be a simpler explanation for why his 40 odd other signings rarely reproduce this identity.

I have run out of likes, but this is very astute. As are these and all the others about insecurity etc that I cannot find again to quote.

 

1 hour ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

@Davefevs rightly regularly picks up on this M 

He only calls out or aims criticism the younger players publicly, never a senior player

If he thinks that’s a clever move , I’d suggest it’s not, decent older pros in the dressing room will pick up on it and be just as p’d off with it as if they were being criticised themselves, particularly when it’s popular / likeable characters as in Hörður and Lloyd

(Can’t believe at the forum he was bemoaning losing Hörður- he never trusted him when he was here)

 

1 hour ago, RedM said:

It is harsh to call out Kelly when he, on the other hand,  is encouraged to go forward and sometimes almost single-handledly produce an attack. LJ conveniently forgets all the good influences he produces in a game and chooses to criticise mistakes. He doesn’t defend alone. A bit of a Magnússon moment often Preston perhaps, I hope not.

 

1 hour ago, bobbyhutchscurlymullet said:

Obviously we're not privy to what is said and goes on behind the scenes, but it almost seems like a case of bullying....pick on the weakest kid. Anyone with a bit of experience and a stronger personality would call him out and probably stand up to him. They then just get sidelined eg Tomlin, O'Neil. 

 

[RedRaw]

4 minutes ago, Badger08 said:

Coach: Takes training, coaches players

Manager: Picks players, decides formations and decides tactics. 

I feel that we can judge him on his managerial side, but not his coaching as such.  What I'm getting at in a long-winded way, is LJ a great coach, but not such a great manager.  

I'm sorry but I'm just not getting your angle. After every poor performance (a performance which follows his week of coaching preparation) we are told they will get back on the training pitch and it will get put right or words to that effect.

We are then treated to a similar/worse abject performance. You can of course blame the players, but they are the players he has coached/picked.

I would really like you to put some meat on the bones of how you can proclaim LJ a great coach

[bearded_red]

48 minutes ago, Badger08 said:

Not doubt about it, LJ is a fantastic coach

Well he’s had three years and his team has no discernible style of play. 

He’s signed a million players and how many are better now than they were the day they signed?

I’d say there was plenty of ******* doubt about whether he is a ‘fantastic coach’.

[BobBobSuperBob]

Just now, Badger08 said:

See, this is exactly my argument.  As you've said, we're down the pecking order, so we have to look for players we can improve, have had a dip in career and getting the best out of what we have. 
All the above are gambles aren't they? You can look at a player and say "I could improve him", but in reality, sometimes that simply isn't possible. Same as trying to get someone back into form (dip).  Its simply a gamble and we aren't in the position in the foodchain to constantly buy ready made players.  So we are constantly gambling.  Is that LJ's fault? I think he got the best out of players that we had: Flint, Bryan, Pack, Kelly, Reid, which is evident on how some of the above are doing at their current clubs. 

So IMO its not just the management, its simply where we are in the food chain within the league.  So where we are is about right? 

The Premier Clubs , Major European Clubs and richer Championship Clubs can’t  sign every player 

 

There are many thousand others out there that we can look at and get if we were so inclined

Every transfer is simply a question of professional judgement 

Weve bought established Championship players and ex prem players and developed them backwards

Suggesting we have to take punts or serious gambles on every transfer is misleading 

Ive been consistent from day one that our recruitment has been very questionable at best , , and we then have a coaching regime which rarely gets anything like a players full potential out 

Not a heady mix

[Frenchay Red]

7 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

The Premier Clubs , Major European Clubs and richer Championship Clubs can’t  sign every player 

 

There are many thousand others out there that we can look at and get if we were so inclined

Every transfer is simply a question of professional judgement 

Weve bought established Championship players and ex prem players and developed them backwards

Suggesting we have to take punts or serious gambles on every transfer is misleading 

Ive been consistent from day one that our recruitment has been very questionable at best , , and we then have a coaching regime which rarely gets anything like a players full potential out 

Not a heady mix

The crowd I sit with were chuckling yesterday, while watching the dross in front of us, that perhaps we have ability removal training that we put the players through

[BobBobSuperBob]

6 minutes ago, Badger08 said:

Good reply.  What I'm trying to get at is, maybe our current situation is simply a result of being Bristol City Football club.  We are going to be average, we are going to have to take punts on players, and we are going to have to have to accept that we can't by the league or use our name to attract the best kind of players.  LJ can't be responsible for those things, we just need to get used to it, however frustrating it may be for us fans. 

 

Think you’re making too many allowances and far too accepting that mid table is our eternal destiny

My simple opinion is a good manager , one who gets the best out of the tools he is provided / supported with , would be visibly  more structured and successful given the opportunity with a tangible and visible approach and progression 

Good recruitment 

Good man management

Good coaching / tactics 

= success , to a large degree , whatever their personal playing  ethos / style

 

Which of the above three - all ? Some ? None ? Would you say we have in place ?

 

 

Id personally say none of them

[bearded_red]

1 minute ago, Badger08 said:

Look, I'm being subjective here.  I'm trying to argue the toss for both sides, which I know is confusing some as most people on here are very black and white.  He has signed a "million" players, but maybe he has signed the best that we can get.
Its not as simple as saying, right, this is my style of play, I'm going to go out and simply select the players.  The top teams in the premier league can, as they have the money, stature and status.  Maybe Lee has a style he wants to play, but we simply can't get the players to play it. Maybe the players that he wants to play that said style don't want to come.  I'm getting angry with myself as I can't explain it how I want to..  

He’s had three years.

If he was even a good coach rather than a ‘fantstic’ one the team would have a style of play and an ‘identity’ we could all relate to, regardless of the standard of players. May be a stupid comparison, but I remember watching Pochettino’s first game managing Southampton and you could see after barely a week on the training ground how he wanted his team to play and how different that was to Nigel Adkins. Johnson has had three years and nobody can tell me how we will attempt to play at Birmingham.

It’s obviously fair to point out that our players don’t have the quality to be getting promotion from this level, but if he was a good coach (or even fantastic!) he would be able to improve them. Their weaknesses would stop being so obvious. As it happens almost all of them are the exact same player they were the day they signed and in fact some of them have regressed.

Callum O’Dowda for me sums up the current way the club is run. He is a perfect example of us supposedly signing young talented players to improve them and then sell at a profit. The fact he is looking likely to go in January for a reduced fee or on a free in the summer is one thing, the fact he is the exact same player today that we signed two and a half years ago shows Johnson’s famous coaching to be the same as the vast majority of things about him. Compete bluffer.