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Dolman Block B

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1 hour ago, BigAlToby&Liam said:

Spot on. The difference bit and it ain’t difficult to see.

The only asset in BCFC is playing staff and they’ll be in at an amount that will be questionable. Ok it’ll be based on something that PKF will be able to justify but it won’t be true market value. Assets in accounts never are.

There are some token freeholds in there but you can’t tell what. From memory BCFC has only income that it itself generates - match day revenue - and the clue here is match day. 

I suppose one way of having the income from Muse/Take That/Spice Girls would be to badge the concerts as half time entertainment but then we’d miss the Dunder Challenge ?

Holdings from memory has the value that was includes that one asset that was once the home of the club. Now Holdings was set up I think before SL came along and for reasons that I suspect were linked to 82 but the fact remains that the value in what was once BCFC is no longer in its hands.

Through a layer of companies of which Lansdown is the beneficial owner, flying in on his permitted days to mitigate his tax, he owns the ******* lot.

So assets are now clearly divided into specific entities. Guess what. Income and costs will be too.

There will be arms length chargebacks but as we know we all have different length arms. My point?

That too will be managed to maximum effect and within an inch of what can be justified and is legal.

As I think @Loon plage has said if the racing car driver/basketball/rugby (or anything else you might think of - maybe a hotel and concert venue) meant Bristol would be proud then I for one think that Lansdown would switch his attention to that.

BCFC is only a part of his interests in Making Bristol Proud. It’s part of the Bristol Sport DNA.

 And in all of that there are 3 words that are missing and are so telling.

He clearly owns the lot, that much is crystal clear.

@Davefevs So does the cash from concerts then go to SL directly, AG Limited,  or somewhere else- BCFC Holdings, BCFC FC and Ashton Gate Limited all separate then?

Only had a brief look at the latter just now but it says:

"The analysis of the company's turnover for the year by class of business is as follows":

2018- £

  • Ground Rent and Service Charge- £2,317,585
  • Stadium and event revenue- £10,058,746

Might be a silly question but to whom is the "Ground Rent and Service Charge" paid? By whom also.

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13 hours ago, Dolman Block B said:

This really does sum it all up

Some guys comments on Twitter

 

 

I’ve just found out that Lee Johnson, who asked to be judged on three transfer windows, has signed 47 players in three years at Bristol City. FORTY-SEVEN. Whether you’re Johnson In or Johnson Out, after signing over two full squads of players, you have to know your best side.

 

How does it compare to other teams in the Champinship? Find that out then you can make an informed decision. 

I haven’t time or be bothered to go look myself - just to try to fuel the LJ out campaign, so you’ll have to find it yourselves. 

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14 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

He clearly owns the lot, that much is crystal clear.

@Davefevs So does the cash from concerts then go to SL directly, AG Limited,  or somewhere else- BCFC Holdings, BCFC FC and Ashton Gate Limited all separate then?

Only had a brief look at the latter just now but it says:

"The analysis of the company's turnover for the year by class of business is as follows":

2018- £

  • Ground Rent and Service Charge- £2,317,585
  • Stadium and event revenue- £10,058,746

Might be a silly question but to whom is the "Ground Rent and Service Charge" paid? By whom also.

Sadly I suspect we’ll never truly know. That’s the point behind holding companies, those registered offshore and with beneficial owners.

Income and costs can be accounted for in so many different ways that eventually it’s difficult to tell who owns what and who gets what. So much so that we end up thinking that all is well.

Until you realise that the fat bastard who disappeared from the back of his yacht had been helping himself to the pension pot of his employees...

Ok an extreme example and I am not for one moment comparing Lansdown with Maxwell, but how many employees of local businesses thought that one day the man who had invested in the businesses that once employed them would see their pensions wiped out?

The point is that any business these days are set up for the ultimate benefit of he or she that owns them.

Whether that’s a one man band plumber who trades as a limited company to mitigate his tax by paying himself the minimum wage - whilst making a directors loan and takes a dividend - or a multi-million £ investor who started off his business in a bedroom. 

Not wrong perhaps, but that doesn’t necessarily make it right.

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2 hours ago, BigAlToby&Liam said:

Sadly I suspect we’ll never truly know. That’s the point behind holding companies, those registered offshore and with beneficial owners.

Income and costs can be accounted for in so many different ways that eventually it’s difficult to tell who owns what and who gets what. So much so that we end up thinking that all is well.

Until you realise that the fat bastard who disappeared from the back of his yacht had been helping himself to the pension pot of his employees...

Ok an extreme example and I am not for one moment comparing Lansdown with Maxwell, but how many employees of local businesses thought that one day the man who had invested in the businesses that once employed them would see their pensions wiped out?

The point is that any business these days are set up for the ultimate benefit of he or she that owns them.

Whether that’s a one man band plumber who trades as a limited company to mitigate his tax by paying himself the minimum wage - whilst making a directors loan and takes a dividend - or a multi-million £ investor who started off his business in a bedroom. 

Not wrong perhaps, but that doesn’t necessarily make it right.

A question please to those with a better grasp of FFP and finances generally:

Is there anything to prevent football clubs from branching out into non football related, profit generating activity that can then improve the P&L and therefore enable more spend on players (and coaches) ?

If the answer is no, then I would suggest that the FFP reasons for the club treading water are bollocks.

If yes, then I will get back in my box !

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12 minutes ago, Loon plage said:

A question please to those with a better grasp of FFP and finances generally:

Is there anything to prevent football clubs from branching out into non football related, profit generating activity that can then improve the P&L and therefore enable more spend on players (and coaches) ?

If the answer is no, then I would suggest that the FFP reasons for the club treading water are bollocks.

If yes, then I will get back in my box !

Summary of current FFP RegulationsEdit

Only a club's outgoings in transfers, employee benefits (including wages), amortisation of transfers, finance costs and dividends will be counted over income from gate receipts, TV revenue, advertising, merchandising, disposal of tangible fixed assets, finance, sales of players and prize money. Any money spent on infrastructure, training facilities or youth development will not be included.[56] The legislation currently allows for eight separate punishments to be taken against clubs transgressing the rules, based in order of severity: Reprimand / Warning, fines, points deduction, withholding of Revenue from a UEFA competition, Prohibition to register new players for UEFA competitions, Restrictions on how many players a club can register for UEFA competitions, Disqualification from a competition in progress and Exclusion from future competitions

The full regulations (Edition 2015) are available to download from the UEFA official portal UEFA.com here; http://www.uefa.org/MultimediaFiles/Download/Tech/uefaorg/General/02/26/77/91/2267791_DOWNLOAD.pdf

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15 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Summary of current FFP RegulationsEdit

Only a club's outgoings in transfers, employee benefits (including wages), amortisation of transfers, finance costs and dividends will be counted over income from gate receipts, TV revenue, advertising, merchandising, disposal of tangible fixed assets, finance, sales of players and prize money. Any money spent on infrastructure, training facilities or youth development will not be included.[56] The legislation currently allows for eight separate punishments to be taken against clubs transgressing the rules, based in order of severity: Reprimand / Warning, fines, points deduction, withholding of Revenue from a UEFA competition, Prohibition to register new players for UEFA competitions, Restrictions on how many players a club can register for UEFA competitions, Disqualification from a competition in progress and Exclusion from future competitions

The full regulations (Edition 2015) are available to download from the UEFA official portal UEFA.com here; http://www.uefa.org/MultimediaFiles/Download/Tech/uefaorg/General/02/26/77/91/2267791_DOWNLOAD.pdf

Aren't those UEFA's regulations which only are relevant if you have a UEFA Club License and are competing in UEFA competitions?

The EFL's regulations appear to potentially allow the results of Bristol City Holdings Ltd to be the ones assessed for the FFP regulations...

"1.1.3       Annual Accounts means:

(a)           the accounts which each Club’s directors are required to prepare pursuant to section 394 of the 2006 Act; or

(b)           if the Club considers it appropriate or the Executive so requests, the group accounts of the Group of which the Club is a member and which it is required to prepare pursuant to section 399 of the 2006 Act, or which it is required to deliver to the Registrar of Companies pursuant to section 400(2)(e) or section 401(2)(f) of the 2006 Act,"

"1.1.9       Group for the purposes of these Rules, has the meaning set out in Section 474(1) of the 2006 Act save that it shall also include any other entity that carries on any material aspect of the football operations of the Club."

Since the Group also incorporates the running of a football stadium that is surely a "material aspect of the football operations of the Club".

https://www.efl.com/-more/governance/efl-rules--regulations/appendix-5---financial-fair-play-regulations/

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17 hours ago, Dolman Block B said:

This really does sum it all up

Some guys comments on Twitter

 

 

I’ve just found out that Lee Johnson, who asked to be judged on three transfer windows, has signed 47 players in three years at Bristol City. FORTY-SEVEN. Whether you’re Johnson In or Johnson Out, after signing over two full squads of players, you have to know your best side.

 

Maybe this is how we can win again. Go 4 up on each position?

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5 hours ago, BigAlToby&Liam said:

Spot on. The difference bit and it ain’t difficult to see.

The only asset in BCFC is playing staff and they’ll be in at an amount that will be questionable. Ok it’ll be based on something that PKF will be able to justify but it won’t be true market value. Assets in accounts never are.

 

So when some rich tycoon, foreign or otherwise, "buys" a Football Club. They are buying bodies and nothing else? Talk about slavery! It all fits doesn't it!

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13 minutes ago, southvillekiddy said:

So when some rich tycoon, foreign or otherwise, "buys" a Football Club. They are buying bodies and nothing else? Talk about slavery! It all fits doesn't it!

Don't talk about slavery in Bristol or they will want to erase your name from history SK!

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2 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Summary of current FFP RegulationsEdit

Only a club's outgoings in transfers, employee benefits (including wages), amortisation of transfers, finance costs and dividends will be counted over income from gate receipts, TV revenue, advertising, merchandising, disposal of tangible fixed assets, finance, sales of players and prize money. Any money spent on infrastructure, training facilities or youth development will not be included.[56] The legislation currently allows for eight separate punishments to be taken against clubs transgressing the rules, based in order of severity: Reprimand / Warning, fines, points deduction, withholding of Revenue from a UEFA competition, Prohibition to register new players for UEFA competitions, Restrictions on how many players a club can register for UEFA competitions, Disqualification from a competition in progress and Exclusion from future competitions

The full regulations (Edition 2015) are available to download from the UEFA official portal UEFA.com here; http://www.uefa.org/MultimediaFiles/Download/Tech/uefaorg/General/02/26/77/91/2267791_DOWNLOAD.pdf

Thanks Dave,

So are capital receipts from the sale of land (development land with a valuable planning consent) , or even better a completed development regarded as arising from the disposal of tangible assets ?

You know where i'm going with this.

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1 hour ago, Banjo Island said:

Just a quick question for big already how do you imagine Mr Lansdown could get back all the money he's invested and then make a profit on top I really can not understand why you constantly belly ache about who owns what who owes who 

You’re lucky Banjo. I’m guessing the question is aimed at me?

Glad that penny has dropped with you as that’s my point. Lansdown has invested in the football club. He’s given the club **** all.

He’s no philanthropic social reformer making Bristol Proud out of the goodness of his heart that so many see him as. 

He’s a professional businessman who makes decisions based on his own desired outcome.

Now if he truly wanted promotion for the football club tell me this. 

Why retain Johnson?

Why retain the buffoon who handles recruitment?

How can he justify spending cash on loan signings who’s only contribution is to increase a loss that leads to the sale of key playing staff to balance the books?

I’d not mind as much if we were all clear about his end game. I’d be a Proud Bristolian if he enabled us to be sustainable and play consistently entertaining football. 

Thing is he isn’t, I’m not and we don’t.

The emperor is wearing his new clothes. Sadly many can’t see that the ****** is in fact naked.

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The thing is al lj has finally say on transfers he chose 2 million on Weiman Sheffield Utd spent the same on Norwood who staticaly is the best midfielder in the championship whilst Weimar just runs around a lot how's that Lansdown fault mate I watched sheff Utd few weeks a go Norwood and mgoldrick were outstanding mgoldrick a free transfer but never mind we got about 8 wingers and no centre forward

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54 minutes ago, Banjo Island said:

The thing is al lj has finally say on transfers he chose 2 million on Weiman Sheffield Utd spent the same on Norwood who staticaly is the best midfielder in the championship whilst Weimar just runs around a lot how's that Lansdown fault mate I watched sheff Utd few weeks a go Norwood and mgoldrick were outstanding mgoldrick a free transfer but never mind we got about 8 wingers and no centre forward

I like Weiman

But is he the answer? NO

See if the club can pull out all the stops in Jan for a Top Top striker 

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1 hour ago, Banjo Island said:

The thing is al lj has finally say on transfers he chose 2 million on Weiman Sheffield Utd spent the same on Norwood who staticaly is the best midfielder in the championship whilst Weimar just runs around a lot how's that Lansdown fault mate I watched sheff Utd few weeks a go Norwood and mgoldrick were outstanding mgoldrick a free transfer but never mind we got about 8 wingers and no centre forward

I thought Norwood would’ve been a good acquisition, but my record is tainted by Cauley Woodrow!

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1 hour ago, Banjo Island said:

The thing is al lj has finally say on transfers he chose 2 million on Weiman Sheffield Utd spent the same on Norwood who staticaly is the best midfielder in the championship whilst Weimar just runs around a lot how's that Lansdown fault mate I watched sheff Utd few weeks a go Norwood and mgoldrick were outstanding mgoldrick a free transfer but never mind we got about 8 wingers and no centre forward

I get that. Thing is SL must have ultimately agreed it. Perhaps through delegating authority, but he’s the monkey at the top of the tree.

If you can see it and if I can see it - not just Weiman but several others - then why can’t Steve?

Or is he happy with what he sees? That’s the only conclusion I can come to. He’s happy to watch the shit we watch week in, week out. He’s happy with LJs selections and Ashton’s negotiations. **** me even finds the Dunder Challenge entertaining.

Or he’s just a happy chappie secure in his own mind that with a stand named after him and so many of his fellow fans adoring him he’s actually making Bristol Proud.

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21 hours ago, Davefevs said:

That is true, but we all know that in football you’re only as good as your last game.

Realistically though for many of us it’s the frustration of inconsistency from season / part season to season / part season.  I know we over-achieved for much of last year.

Dave, I don’t think for one moment that ‘you’re only as good as you’re last game.’ It’s a meaningless cliche. Totally unhelpful.

For example, should Burnley sack Dyche? 

If we overachieved last season then we should be reasonably happy with what’s happening now because it’s better than what came before it (two relegation dog fights).

There’s too much short-term thinking in football - and life. Overall LJ has done reasonably well for us. I’m interested to see how it develops and would urge patience, however hard that feels. 

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3 minutes ago, firstdivision said:

Dave, I don’t think for one moment that ‘you’re only as good as you’re last game.’ It’s a meaningless cliche. Totally unhelpful.

Agree

For example, should Burnley sack Dyche? 

Yes, appoint him here ?

If we overachieved last season then we should be reasonably happy with what’s happening now because it’s better than what came before it (two relegation dog fights).

It is and it isn’t.  Performances are swaying opinions.  Imho if we continue to play like we have in the main, we won’t pick up points at the same rate.  Once again, my opinion, but I think we are 3-4 points better off than we deserve.

There’s too much short-term thinking in football - and life. Overall LJ has done reasonably well for us. I’m interested to see how it develops and would urge patience, however hard that feels. 

There’s a bigger picture than results / position, e.g. recruitment in / outgoings, bringing on players from Academy, Annual Accounts, etc.  There’s + / - in all for LJ.

 

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On 07/12/2018 at 16:43, BigAlToby&Liam said:

You’re lucky Banjo. I’m guessing the question is aimed at me?

Glad that penny has dropped with you as that’s my point. Lansdown has invested in the football club. He’s given the club **** all.

He’s no philanthropic social reformer making Bristol Proud out of the goodness of his heart that so many see him as. 

He’s a professional businessman who makes decisions based on his own desired outcome.

Now if he truly wanted promotion for the football club tell me this. 

Why retain Johnson?

Why retain the buffoon who handles recruitment?

How can he justify spending cash on loan signings who’s only contribution is to increase a loss that leads to the sale of key playing staff to balance the books?

I’d not mind as much if we were all clear about his end game. I’d be a Proud Bristolian if he enabled us to be sustainable and play consistently entertaining football. 

Thing is he isn’t, I’m not and we don’t.

The emperor is wearing his new clothes. Sadly many can’t see that the ****** is in fact naked.

Correct. Frustrating and disappointing and he got away it. After all who will buy a franchised football club that owns nothing... 

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