Who does our opposition team analysis?

[Flagon]

Anyone know who takes responsibility for this? 

For a long time we just don't seem to get our set up right from the off no matter who we play.

 

[REDOXO]

41 minutes ago, Flagon said:

Anyone know who takes responsibility for this? 

For a long time we just don't seem to get our set up right from the off no matter who we play.

 

Isn’t that the truth!!

[Ivorguy]

There is little evidence that anyone does this.  I am surprised you think otherwise!

[wendyredredrobin]

I'm sure Lee watches the Championship on Quest for his analysis.

Actually, he is still putting on Channel 5, which may help to explain the problem

[Dredd]

Surely this is the managers job

[Robbored]

7 minutes ago, Dredd said:

Surely this is the managers job

There’s a team of analysts who watch all the Championship clubs and that data is fed to the coaches in the week of the match. LJ knows all there is to know about opposition teams. 

We had two analysts at Senior Reds about a year ago. They were very switched on and fascinating to listen to. We had no idea just how involved the analysis is. It’s very very detailed.

They and Geoff Twentyman were the best speakers last year.

[glen humphries]

1 minute ago, Robbored said:

There’s a team of analysts who watch all the Championship clubs and that data is fed to the coaches in the week of the match. LJ knows all there is to know about opposition teams. 

We had two analysts at Senior Reds about a year ago. They were very switched on and fascinating to listen to. We had no idea just how involved the analysis is. It’s very very detailed.

They and Geoff Twentyman were the best speakers last year.

If lj knows all there is to know about the opposition then we’re in more trouble than I thought, he still can’t set us up right, Johnson out.

[Natchfever]

6 hours ago, Flagon said:

Anyone know who takes responsibility for this? 

For a long time we just don't seem to get our set up right from the off no matter who we play.

 

Pete Johnson.

[BobBobSuperBob]

#SPYDRONES

[Flagon]

14 hours ago, Robbored said:

There’s a team of analysts who watch all the Championship clubs and that data is fed to the coaches in the week of the match. LJ knows all there is to know about opposition teams. 

We had two analysts at Senior Reds about a year ago. They were very switched on and fascinating to listen to. We had no idea just how involved the analysis is. It’s very very detailed.

They and Geoff Twentyman were the best speakers last year.

That's really interesting. There are so many games where I'm left wondering why we are playing a particular way. So just going on the Millwall game for example, I cannot possibly see that it made any sense to lump it to Diedhiou against two physical taller and stronger centre backs.

So it makes you think, was it the lack of quality of ball into him? Was he not physically doing enough? Were the players not in actual fact meant to do that at all? And then also at what point do players need to think for themselves a little bit and think this isn't working at all we need to do something different. 

Maybe look to either the captain or manager to have an alternative plan and they all know as a team to switch to something different.

Doesn't make sense at the moment that we can have all this analysis and yet the game plan seem so off. It always feels like we try to work out what the other team are doing as we go along at the moment. 

[Mike Hunt-Hertz]

11 hours ago, Loon plage said:

Pete Johnson.

Or Anthony & The Johnsons.

[Robbored]

8 minutes ago, Flagon said:

That's really interesting. There are so many games where I'm left wondering why we are playing a particular way. So just going on the Millwall game for example, I cannot possibly see that it made any sense to lump it to Diedhiou against two physical taller and stronger centre backs.

So it makes you think, was it the lack of quality of ball into him? Was he not physically doing enough? Were the players not in actual fact meant to do that at all? And then also at what point do players need to think for themselves a little bit and think this isn't working at all we need to do something different. 

Maybe look to either the captain or manager to have an alternative plan and they all know as a team to switch to something different.

Doesn't make sense at the moment that we can have all this analysis and yet the game plan seem so off. It always feels like we try to work out what the other team are doing as we go along at the moment. 

It’s an old chestnut that I bang on about - lack of a creative midfielder leaps out to me that is where are lacking. When we were beaten by the Owls Bannon ran the show - nobody could get close to him. City have nobody of that type.

An example of when LJ got his tactics spot on was against the Blades. The data showed that they score the majority of their goals in the first half and so he set up to stifle them in the first 45. We went in at 0-0....second half was a completely different set up and we beat them 1-0.

LJ mentioned that post match but I sometimes think that he overthinks the strengths/weaknesses of the opposition and we’ve seen some dreadful performances when it hasn’t paid off. 

[Mike Hunt-Hertz]

Stevie Wonder and Helen Keller.

[Mr Popodopolous]

48 minutes ago, Robbored said:

It’s an old chestnut that I bang on about - lack of a creative midfielder leaps out to me that is where are lacking. When we were beaten by the Owls Bannon ran the show - nobody could get close to him. City have nobody of that type.

An example of when LJ got his tactics spot on was against the Blades. The data showed that they score the majority of their goals in the first half and so he set up to stifle them in the first 45. We went in at 0-0....second half was a completely different set up and we beat them 1-0.

LJ mentioned that post match but I sometimes think that he overthinks the strengths/weaknesses of the opposition and we’ve seen some dreadful performances when it hasn’t paid off. 

Tbh in a '3' I think Walsh could have had a crack at that- could have broke the lines a bit. LJ didn't use him enough or correctly enough when he was fit and now he's out for weeks so back to the drawing board on that score...

[Curr Avon]

19 hours ago, Flagon said:

Anyone know who takes responsibility for this? 

For a long time we just don't seem to get our set up right from the off no matter who we play.

 

Is it Mavis the tea lady, or Vera in accounts?

[EnderMB]

Analysis is an area I'm particularly interested in, since I've worked with data analysis for a few months, albeit in a non-footballing role.

To say it has changed in the last decade would be a gross understatement. Data analysis in football today is big money, and it has become a surprising career avenue for data scientists and statisticians. Go to Google Scholar, and you'll be surprised at how many academics have published papers on statistical implementations of different performance models for players in the top five leagues, and go to any self-respecting university, and you'll probably find at least one researcher that has implemented a data model on football data that with hindsight can pick top players from smaller leagues that would go on to have successful careers in the top flight, can pick weaknesses in opposing teams, can suggest which players are right for a certain tactic, even which players are improving in training and which ones aren't progressing in ability. In the next decade, I'd be surprised if Category 1 academy graduates weren't at least partially picked for first-team contracts based on a script that analyses their training and match data over several years.

The funny thing is that Bristol is the perfect place for this stuff to take off. We're a popular city to attract global talent in statistics and data science, we have leading universities in this field, and there are academics and researchers who, right now, are looking to sell their models to football clubs, and simply can't get their foot through the door - I know for a fact that Bristol City gets emails from academics for this kind of thing already, so I'm hoping that LJ and co are at least looking into this stuff with an open mind, because in my honest opinion the first clubs to go all in on this approach are going to be the ones to reap the rewards.

If LJ and his team can't do opposition analysis, bring some maths whiz in with a computer program that can tell the coaching staff their oppositions strengths and weaknesses, and go from there.

 

[downendcity]

I reckon that LJ needs to start getting hold of the opposition analysis of our strengths, so he can discover what they are and can start playing to them.

[Mr Popodopolous]

1 hour ago, EnderMB said:

Analysis is an area I'm particularly interested in, since I've worked with data analysis for a few months, albeit in a non-footballing role.

To say it has changed in the last decade would be a gross understatement. Data analysis in football today is big money, and it has become a surprising career avenue for data scientists and statisticians. Go to Google Scholar, and you'll be surprised at how many academics have published papers on statistical implementations of different performance models for players in the top five leagues, and go to any self-respecting university, and you'll probably find at least one researcher that has implemented a data model on football data that with hindsight can pick top players from smaller leagues that would go on to have successful careers in the top flight, can pick weaknesses in opposing teams, can suggest which players are right for a certain tactic, even which players are improving in training and which ones aren't progressing in ability. In the next decade, I'd be surprised if Category 1 academy graduates weren't at least partially picked for first-team contracts based on a script that analyses their training and match data over several years.

The funny thing is that Bristol is the perfect place for this stuff to take off. We're a popular city to attract global talent in statistics and data science, we have leading universities in this field, and there are academics and researchers who, right now, are looking to sell their models to football clubs, and simply can't get their foot through the door - I know for a fact that Bristol City gets emails from academics for this kind of thing already, so I'm hoping that LJ and co are at least looking into this stuff with an open mind, because in my honest opinion the first clubs to go all in on this approach are going to be the ones to reap the rewards.

If LJ and his team can't do opposition analysis, bring some maths whiz in with a computer program that can tell the coaching staff their oppositions strengths and weaknesses, and go from there.

 

I have a bit of an interest too, for similar reasons- worked with Analytics at various stages. Definitely changed a lot and we see that in the recruitment sense. I think with regards the opposition scouting isn't so big on the analytical side, numerically but it's more about recruitment- you need and it may change, but to me you need to clearly identify their style, strengths and weaknesses- numbers can only take you so far with that. More basic stuff e.g. shots on target conversion ratio, shots/shots on target ratio, goals from set pieces, crosses etc- that's a form of analytics arguably and the most relevant at this stage with regards the opposition.

Noticed that Leicester had a job ad for Head of Football Analytics. Salary? £80-100k. Big business as you say.

[Murraysrightplum]

The Russians 

[CodeRed]

2 hours ago, Mike Hunt-Hertz said:

Stevie Wonder and Helen Keller.

Ccorrect.  LJ used to do all the opposition analysis but soon realised even a blind man could do a better job, 

Stevie has to fit it in around his other job of Bristol City Chief Scout though

[Ashtonwurzel]

19 hours ago, Ivorguy said:

There is little evidence that anyone does this.  I am surprised you think otherwise!

There are a team of people who do this for every fixture, based at Failand.

[marmite]

One thing that confuses me. LJ will say for example we have set up 442 say to counter the opposition's strengths.  How does he know they won't switch to 433 or some other formation to counter our strengths?  If other teams don't change shape to counter us, why ffs are we always changing ours!? It's why we have no game plan or identity despite what LJ says.

[Davefevs]

The big question is the interpretation of the “data” (not just numbers) and decision to do something with it or not, eg tweak the team or not. 

Second is what then happens in the game itself. 

I think @BobBobSuperBob has asked what qualifications our analysts have and I don’t think he’s asking for degrees, but foutball interpretation qualifications. 

I worked with a very clever guy who could pull dats out of a “database” for fun. What he couldn’t do was answer whether it answered the brief or whether the brief was right in the first place or even worse whether the data was accurate or not. That’s where people like me were useful.

@Beni71 headed up our data team!

There was a great piece of analysis last season that pointed to the fact that our set up was too narrow. The heat map showed a big yellow-orangey-reddy blob in the centre of the pitch stretching from our half into theirs. Lots of people instantly moaning about no width. 

However the problem was that the heat map used average positions, and COD and Pato - our two widemen, switched flanks regularly through the game, affecting their average position! Left wing for 10 minutes, right wing for 10 minutes equal central average position!!!!

[Robbored]

36 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

The big question is the interpretation of the “data” (not just numbers) and decision to do something with it or not, eg tweak the team or not. 

Second is what then happens in the game itself. 

I think @BobBobSuperBob has asked what qualifications our analysts have and I don’t think he’s asking for degrees, but foutball interpretation qualifications. 

I worked with a very clever guy who could pull dats out of a “database” for fun. What he couldn’t do was answer whether it answered the brief or whether the brief was right in the first place or even worse whether the data was accurate or not. That’s where people like me were useful.

@Beni71 headed up our data team!

There was a great piece of analysis last season that pointed to the fact that our set up was too narrow. The heat map showed a big yellow-orangey-reddy blob in the centre of the pitch stretching from our half into theirs. Lots of people instantly moaning about no width. 

However the problem was that the heat map used average positions, and COD and Pato - our two widemen, switched flanks regularly through the game, affecting their average position! Left wing for 10 minutes, right wing for 10 minutes equal central average position!!!!

The two guys that spoke at Senior Reds were fascinating but they weren’t asked what their qualifications were.....it was taken as read that they wouldn’t have been employed if they had none of any value.

I wish I’d recorded what they said but they covered so much that it’s difficult to remember everything but a couple of  things stood out - namely that every player has an ap on their phone and each morning they enter how they’re feeling, how they slept, any aches or pains ect ect and that info is immediately entered into the analysis computer so that even before they turn up for training the coaches know how they are.....

The analysts also travel abroad to watch players that City might be interested in, recording all relevant data.

Each player wears a vest during matches with a chip that sends all the personal data upto the guys at the back of the Lansdown so they know instantly how much ground they’ve covered, sprints, jogging and dusteance of both. They also know if a player is flagging but are forbidden to pass that info on to the coaches on the touchiness - the fourth officials are particularly vigilant on that!

The heat maps are another tool in the kit box. It tells them everything about players movements ect ect..

The amount of data collected is absolutely vast. None of us had any idea just how complex the whole area is. I found it a really amazing subject.

[Cowshed]

26 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

The big question is the interpretation of the “data” (not just numbers) and decision to do something with it or not, eg tweak the team or not. 

Second is what then happens in the game itself. 

I think @BobBobSuperBob has asked what qualifications our analysts have and I don’t think he’s asking for degrees, but foutball interpretation qualifications. 

I worked with a very clever guy who could pull dats out of a “database” for fun. What he couldn’t do was answer whether it answered the brief or whether the brief was right in the first place or even worse whether the data was accurate or not. That’s where people like me were useful.

@Beni71 headed up our data team!

There was a great piece of analysis last season that pointed to the fact that our set up was too narrow. The heat map showed a big yellow-orangey-reddy blob in the centre of the pitch stretching from our half into theirs. Lots of people instantly moaning about no width. 

However the problem was that the heat map used average positions, and COD and Pato - our two widemen, switched flanks regularly through the game, affecting their average position! Left wing for 10 minutes, right wing for 10 minutes equal central average position!!!!

Analysts will provide analysis on what you instruct them to. It could be as simple as identifying a trend in a keeper conceding  particular types of shots from right footed players playing on the left. There are no football analysts qualifications in line with coaching badges at this point, but analysts frequently do have extensive football knowledge.

In regards to heat maps. A standard playertek gps can measure where players are individually on the pitch, and when/how long.  

[redapple]

4 hours ago, Robbored said:

It’s an old chestnut that I bang on about - lack of a creative midfielder leaps out to me that is where are lacking. When we were beaten by the Owls Bannon ran the show - nobody could get close to him. City have nobody of that type.

An example of when LJ got his tactics spot on was against the Blades. The data showed that they score the majority of their goals in the first half and so he set up to stifle them in the first 45. We went in at 0-0....second half was a completely different set up and we beat them 1-0.

LJ mentioned that post match but I sometimes think that he overthinks the strengths/weaknesses of the opposition and we’ve seen some dreadful performances when it hasn’t paid off. 

I agree that he’s a good player, he commits defenders and creates space for his forwards. He’s exactly what we’re lacking. But against us a few weeks back he had a very average game and looked as bad as everyone else on the pitch. 

[Natchfever]

5 hours ago, Mike Hunt-Hertz said:

Or Anthony & The Johnsons.

No Mike Pete - he has the knowledge..

Having been a cabbie.

[Davefevs]

Ta @Robbored aware of most of that.  That is however data on our own players or players we are watching rather than the opposition. Do the same guys do that too?

[Robbored]

10 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Ta @Robbored aware of most of that.  That is however data on our own players or players we are watching rather than the opposition. Do the same guys do that too?

I don’t suppose other clubs have access to our data so I seriously doubt that City have access to theirs.

That said, when watching a player overseas I would expect them to have access to the relevant data. For example - they knew all there was to know about Dionsys’s data and I doubt they took their own kit to record it. 

[Peter1450]

47 minutes ago, Robbored said:

The two guys that spoke at Senior Reds were fascinating but they weren’t asked what their qualifications were.....it was taken as read that they wouldn’t have been employed if they had none of any value.

I wish I’d recorded what they said but they covered so much that it’s difficult to remember everything but a couple of  things stood out - namely that every player has an ap on their phone and each morning they enter how they’re feeling, how they slept, any aches or pains ect ect and that info is immediately entered into the analysis computer so that even before they turn up for training the coaches know how they are.....

The analysts also travel abroad to watch players that City might be interested in, recording all relevant data.

Each player wears a vest during matches with a chip that sends all the personal data upto the guys at the back of the Lansdown so they know instantly how much ground they’ve covered, sprints, jogging and dusteance of both. They also know if a player is flagging but are forbidden to pass that info on to the coaches on the touchiness - the fourth officials are particularly vigilant on that!

The heat maps are another tool in the kit box. It tells them everything about players movements ect ect..

The amount of data collected is absolutely vast. None of us had any idea just how complex the whole area is. I found it a really amazing subject.

  Bakers app must make for painful viewing