Who does our opposition team analysis?

[Davefevs]

12 minutes ago, Robbored said:

I don’t suppose other clubs have access to our data so I seriously doubt that City have access to theirs.

That said, when watching a player overseas I would expect them to have access to the relevant data. For example - they knew all there was to know about Dionsys’s data and I doubt they took their own kit to record it. 

I wasn’t suggesting our analysts “borrow” the data from opposition!!!!!  I was asking whether the same analysts have to go and collect opposition data whether that be from official data sources or video or whatever. 

Tracking player stats must be very different to scouting the opposition. I did a bit some years back and albeit it was on paper, but it was formations, set pieces, style of play. 

With an iPad / camera I could do that so much more efficiently these days. 

[RedRock]

... and this probably explains why we are so shite.

‘Analysis Paralysis’ a common condition for those either lacking in any real natural ability or having had it drained from them.

 

Someone needs to get their management textbook out and re-read the chapter on motivation. Get back to basics. Concentrate on encouraging players to use their natural talent and flair rather than going around measuring the length of the grass FFS. 

Once you’ve got the 99% maximum performance out of the player, then worry about the minutiae.

 

We seem to adopt the reverse strategy. 99% analysis dictating play, position, patterns and 1% slaggging off. 

 

 

 

[Robbored]

16 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I wasn’t suggesting our analysts “borrow” the data from opposition!!!!!  I was asking whether the same analysts have to go and collect opposition data whether that be from official data sources or video or whatever. 

Tracking player stats must be very different to scouting the opposition. I did a bit some years back and albeit it was on paper, but it was formations, set pieces, style of play. 

With an iPad / camera I could do that so much more efficiently these days. 

There might well be a cummunal data base accessible by every club which would create a level playing field but I don’t actually know. Next time those guys are speakers at Senior Reds I’ll ask! 

One other thing that I just remembered that they said is that the French Ligue 2 is the closest league in Europe comparable to the Championship in terms of standard and why they often pop over the channel to watch various players that City are interested in.

[Lrrr]

1 hour ago, Robbored said:

The two guys that spoke at Senior Reds were fascinating but they weren’t asked what their qualifications were.....it was taken as read that they wouldn’t have been employed if they had none of any value.

I wish I’d recorded what they said but they covered so much that it’s difficult to remember everything but a couple of  things stood out - namely that every player has an ap on their phone and each morning they enter how they’re feeling, how they slept, any aches or pains ect ect and that info is immediately entered into the analysis computer so that even before they turn up for training the coaches know how they are.....

The analysts also travel abroad to watch players that City might be interested in, recording all relevant data.

Each player wears a vest during matches with a chip that sends all the personal data upto the guys at the back of the Lansdown so they know instantly how much ground they’ve covered, sprints, jogging and dusteance of both. They also know if a player is flagging but are forbidden to pass that info on to the coaches on the touchiness - the fourth officials are particularly vigilant on that!

The heat maps are another tool in the kit box. It tells them everything about players movements ect ect..

The amount of data collected is absolutely vast. None of us had any idea just how complex the whole area is. I found it a really amazing subject.

Bold 1 - Used so that the coaches can be made aware if they need to tailor an individuals training or gym session, if they've slept or twinge in say bicep they may have less aerobic work to do or avoid upper body work for the day etc.

2 - as far as I'm aware analysts will use various forms of scouting software to put together a video based on 10 games or so, if the recruitment staff/LJ or whoever like what they see then that's when they will scout. Don't think the analysts travel as they can view everything they need to online, also they're needed at the club through the season so no time to travel abroad.

3 - Like rugby analysts/sport scientists/S&C coaches will have data on how much ground a player covers in an average game, they can use that data to determine when in a match a player is likely to start dropping off, if a player hits their average distance at 80 mins at 65-70 you know they're going flag in the last minutes. The rule on not passing data to the dugout has changed for this season. Information can be shared between analysts and the bench, however no video of controversial moments can be sent to the bench so that managers can't have it on a tablet waving in the face of the 4th official.

Side note we actually have one of the creators of 'packing' in Jens, packing looks at the number of meaningful passes players make in a game and could become the next big KPI the way expected goals have taken off this season in broadcasting and social media.

[Lrrr]

46 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Ta @Robbored aware of most of that.  That is however data on our own players or players we are watching rather than the opposition. Do the same guys do that too?

Scouting software and websites can provide data on pretty much all teams.

[DaveInSA]

2 hours ago, Ashtonwurzel said:

There are a team of people who do this for every fixture, based at Failand.

 They should all be fired

[Flagon]

4 minutes ago, Badger08 said:

Just out of interest, how would you setup against Birmingham? 

I wouldn't know because I don't do the analysis. However, pre match conferences always suggest we know what the other team are about, we know their qualities, we know how they play, we know so and so is dangerous and yet after the game you are left scratching your head. 

The Championship is very tight and very difficult to call most games so if we are getting detailed analysis it's not working as well as it should at the moment. It's not everything but any advantage you can get in this league is a must. 

[marmite]

If I was an opposing manager against us at the moment I would just think. Ok we got Bristol City next. They have no strategy or game plan so we will play to our strengths and play our way.

[Flagon]

6 minutes ago, marmite said:

If I was an opposing manager against us at the moment I would just think. Ok we got Bristol City next. They have no strategy or game plan so we will play to our strengths and play our way.

Yeah it does seem that way. 

When you think back to that fantastic run that yes included the cup games we all loved we had a particular way of pressing as a unit that majority of teams were struggling to cope with no matter the formations and playing styles we were up against. 

We obviously ran out of steam and didn't bolster the squad right after but what now. It feels like we are pandering to the opposition and hoping to win through. 

[123456789000]

I reckon in the week leading up to games against us, clubs will receive the following email from the team of analysts:

 

Dear Birmingham City F.C.

We have been observing your upcoming opponents Bristol City in recent matches in order to put together some opposition analysis in preparation for the match on Saturday 8th December. However, we have not been able to identify any of their strengths. 

As we have been unable to complete our engagement, please find attached a credit note equal to 1/46th of your annual fee.

We look forward to returning to our usual high standards for your match against Blackburn Rovers on Saturday 15th December.

Kind regards

SkyBet Championship Data Analysts Ltd

 

[Cowshed]

33 minutes ago, Moor2Sea said:

... and this probably explains why we are so shite.

‘Analysis Paralysis’ a common condition for those either lacking in any real natural ability or having had it drained from them.

 

Someone needs to get their management textbook out and re-read the chapter on motivation. Get back to basics. Concentrate on encouraging players to use their natural talent and flair rather than going around measuring the length of the grass FFS. 

Once you’ve got the 99% maximum performance out of the player, then worry about the minutiae.

We seem to adopt the reverse strategy. 99% analysis dictating play, position, patterns and 1% slaggging off.

 

 

 

And this is what analytics can be used to do. It is as basic as the holder of the data wants it to be e.g 3d imaging if you widen this angle more you will have more opportunity to improvise and be skillful. That can feed motivation = Here is a path to improve.

[Mr Popodopolous]

37 minutes ago, Flagon said:

Yeah it does seem that way. 

When you think back to that fantastic run that yes included the cup games we all loved we had a particular way of pressing as a unit that majority of teams were struggling to cope with no matter the formations and playing styles we were up against. 

We obviously ran out of steam and didn't bolster the squad right after but what now. It feels like we are pandering to the opposition and hoping to win through. 

Agreed, we did- we were good in possession, compact and yet built pressure steadily- was great to see. Especially late November to the Wolves game plus the Cup games.

@Badger08 I'll probably get a few disagreements with this but setup v Birmingham? I'd actually suggest ceding the ball because they are a team who thrive without it- indeed they have averaged only about 40-41% this season, it suggests they can counter and they can have a lot of shots without the ball. Vs Birmingham I'd consider letting them have the ball and then counter, pounce on their mistakes a bit- given they barely get 50% or above under Monk, look to give them a problem they are not used to. I thought the same about Millwall away last season in that crucial game in April when we were both in the playoff picture. We had 61% of the ball- and 0 shots on target. Played right into their hands and perhaps if LJ decides to go for the classic 'We'll get a response' mindset- and Birmingham have better players than Millwall- then similar will happen Saturday except worse!

To also add, because a) They are at home and b) Because of their counterattacking ways, first goal v Birmingham very important. We get it and they're up against it because we can then counter from a position of strength and because we are away we can have more license to spring quick breaks.

[Lrrr]

10 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Agreed, we did- we were good in possession, compact and yet built pressure steadily- was great to see. Especially late November to the Wolves game plus the Cup games.

@Badger08 I'll probably get a few disagreements with this but setup v Birmingham? I'd actually suggest ceding the ball because they are a team who thrive without it- indeed they have averaged only about 40-41% this season, it suggests they can counter and they can have a lot of shots without the ball. Vs Birmingham I'd consider letting them have the ball and then counter, pounce on their mistakes a bit- given they barely get 50% or above under Monk, look to give them a problem they are not used to. I thought the same about Millwall away last season in that crucial game in April when we were both in the playoff picture. We had 61% of the ball- and 0 shots on target. Played right into their hands and perhaps if LJ decides to go for the classic 'We'll get a response' mindset- and Birmingham have better players than Millwall- then similar will happen Saturday except worse!

To also add, because a) They are at home and b) Because of their counterattacking ways, first goal v Birmingham very important. We get it and they're up against it because we can then counter from a position of strength and because we are away we can have more license to spring quick breaks.

And get responses of 'why are we countering other teams tactics etc'

[Mr Popodopolous]

Just now, hodge said:

And get responses of 'why are we countering other teams tactics etc'

I know but to me that's a longer term issue, we need to get an identity and a consistent Plan A then a consistent Plan B.

For Saturday, I think it'd be a decent gameplan but longer term we need to stop tinkering and do the above.

[RedRock]

36 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

And this is what analytics can be used to do. It is as basic as the holder of the data wants it to be e.g 3d imaging if you widen this angle more you will have more opportunity to improvise and be skillful. That can feed motivation = Here is a path to improve.

Or, as proven by recent performances, it can straight-jacket players, hamper intuitive play and suppress natural ability. 

As ever, a matter of balance. Think we are analytical in excess, and I’m doubting whether LJ and others have a natural ability to motivate. Hence over-use of analysis. 

[Cowshed]

2 minutes ago, Moor2Sea said:

Or, as proven by recent performances, it can straight-jacket players, hamper intuitive play and suppress natural ability. 

As ever, a matter of balance. Think we are analytical in excess, and I’m doubting whether LJ and others have a natural ability to motivate. Hence over-use of analysis. 

It is not proven at all. 

Managers for decades have straight jacketed players with tactics.

Mr Johnson has been fielding wingers. He is giving players freedom. Its not suppressed football. Its muddled and not very good.  

 

[1960maaan]

8 hours ago, Davefevs said:

The big question is the interpretation of the “data” (not just numbers) and decision to do something with it or not, eg tweak the team or not. 

Second is what then happens in the game itself. 

I heard a brilliant program some time ago, more to do with the moneyball idea , but all data lead. The expert said exactly that, and that the interpretations were changing and more emphasis was on the deciphering of the data than collection. 

6 hours ago, Robbored said:

I don’t suppose other clubs have access to our data so I seriously doubt that City have access to theirs.

There are many ways to collect data, I would imagine all teams have access to all the data on clubs and players. In house could be more focused on specific needs, but it's all available. As I said above , the guy said more focus was on what to do with the data, how to analyse what they collect and what they do with it. I know it's slightly different as it's more player focused, but all data on teams/players etc is out there and available . 

[BobBobSuperBob]

4 hours ago, Cowshed said:

It is not proven at all. 

Managers for decades have straight jacketed players with tactics.

Mr Johnson has been fielding wingers. He is giving players freedom. Its not suppressed football. Its muddled and not very good.  

 

I agree with much you say Cowshed but I’m not so sure about this 

His latest favourite is the work being done on ‘position in possession’ (which I have a feeling you will fully understand so I won’t expand) 

He was certainly overtly keeping LK on a leash a few games back to cite one obvious example

I wonder , listening to him , and watching what’s going on , on the pitch that he’s worked too much on the negative / safety aspects of ‘position in possession’

or at least got the balance wrong , and is restricting freedom 

[Davefevs]

10 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

I agree with much you say Cowshed but I’m not so sure about this 

His latest favourite is the work being done on ‘position in possession’ (which I have a feeling you will fully understand so I won’t expand) 

He was certainly overtly keeping LK on a leash a few games back to cite one obvious example

I wonder , listening to him , and watching what’s going on , on the pitch that he’s worked too much on the negative / safety aspects of ‘position in possession’

or at least got the balance wrong , and is restricting freedom 

Of late I’ve been massively critical of Eliasson’s position in possession.  Lo and behold, Eliasson starting positions are deeper (and on left side) and suddenly he had a good 45+90.  It makes me wonder what they’ve been analysing at times.  All I have is a pair of eyes.

[BobBobSuperBob]

1 minute ago, Davefevs said:

Of late I’ve been massively critical of Eliasson’s position in possession.  Lo and behold, Eliasson starting positions are deeper (and on left side) and suddenly he had a good 45+90.  It makes me wonder what they’ve been analysing at times.  All I have is a pair of eyes.

Elliasson is really interesting to watch off ball Dave

His eagerness to follow instructions is actually noticeable , you can almost see him look, think and scamper to where he’s been asked to be and thus he’s really interesting to watch and focus on

Ive said on other threads , his enthusiasm and eagerness to deliver in all aspects is admirable

 

[Cowshed]

1 hour ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

I agree with much you say Cowshed but I’m not so sure about this 

His latest favourite is the work being done on ‘position in possession’ (which I have a feeling you will fully understand so I won’t expand) 

He was certainly overtly keeping LK on a leash a few games back to cite one obvious example

I wonder , listening to him , and watching what’s going on , on the pitch that he’s worked too much on the negative / safety aspects of ‘position in possession’

or at least got the balance wrong , and is restricting freedom 

Yes you are right. I do not look at the football in intent as being that restricted. It is not sitting deep in compact lines, barely committing players to attack. The side contains multiple attacking players who have freedom and this is hardly a defence or otherwise of Lee Johnson, but it would not be unusual to balance this with the expectation that players will be conservative in areas of the pitch. 

 

 

[Beni71]

On 04/12/2018 at 13:11, Davefevs said:

The big question is the interpretation of the “data” (not just numbers) and decision to do something with it or not, eg tweak the team or not. 

Second is what then happens in the game itself. 

I think @BobBobSuperBob has asked what qualifications our analysts have and I don’t think he’s asking for degrees, but foutball interpretation qualifications. 

I worked with a very clever guy who could pull dats out of a “database” for fun. What he couldn’t do was answer whether it answered the brief or whether the brief was right in the first place or even worse whether the data was accurate or not. That’s where people like me were useful.

@Beni71 headed up our data team!

There was a great piece of analysis last season that pointed to the fact that our set up was too narrow. The heat map showed a big yellow-orangey-reddy blob in the centre of the pitch stretching from our half into theirs. Lots of people instantly moaning about no width. 

However the problem was that the heat map used average positions, and COD and Pato - our two widemen, switched flanks regularly through the game, affecting their average position! Left wing for 10 minutes, right wing for 10 minutes equal central average position!!!!

@Davefevs spot on Dave it was def a two man (sometimes a three man) job to code & extract, analyse, recommend and implement. I hope and presume the governance is somewhat simpler at BCFC compared to your previous employer

The new buzz word in the data world is the “data scientist”. They tend to encompass the end to end journey for data (extraction, analysis etc) and there are some extremely clever people out there but pretty sure there are other industries that will pay much more for their skills.

As I’ve said before Dave I think you are in the wrong business. Would be interesting to know the operating model for analytics at BCFC. Does LJ actually get the findings or does he do the analysis on the data.

[BobBobSuperBob]

39 minutes ago, Beni71 said:

@Davefevs spot on Dave it was def a two man (sometimes a three man) job to code & extract, analyse, recommend and implement. I hope and presume the governance is somewhat simpler at BCFC compared to your previous employer

The new buzz word in the data world is the “data scientist”. They tend to encompass the end to end journey for data (extraction, analysis etc) and there are some extremely clever people out there but pretty sure there are other industries that will pay much more for their skills.

As I’ve said before Dave I think you are in the wrong business. Would be interesting to know the operating model for analytics at BCFC. Does LJ actually get the findings or does he do the analysis on the data.

 

I recall him talking about the amount of data he gets given - specifically remember him explaining how Post Match he will get data in a printed pack , several inches thick

I would assume there is a lot of data with certain noticeable themes and things  highlighted

Interestingly , You don’t see or hear of  LJ at opposition matches ,, but with the full footage of every game available and every data stat you could want, I guess he thinks it unnecessary

Id still like to see my opponents eyes on personally

[Lanterne Rouge]

43 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

I recall him talking about the amount of data he gets given - specifically remember him explaining how Post Match he will get data in a printed pack , several inches thick

I would assume there is a lot of data with certain noticeable themes and things  highlighted

Interestingly , You don’t see or hear of  LJ at opposition matches ,, but with the full footage of every game available and every data stat you could want, I guess he thinks it unnecessary

Id still like to see my opponents eyes on personally

Absolutely. Perhaps not every game - you wouldn`t expect him to spend two days flying up and back to Boro for instance - but Reading ,QPR, Villa say. It`s a bit easier now with the midweek games split over two days and all the other bizarre kick off days and times.

After all, you`ve only got to read the post match comments on here to know that rarely do two people see the same game - my mate who I go up with and sits behind me often appears to have watched an entirely different match going by our discussions on the trip home!

[Davefevs]

53 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

I recall him talking about the amount of data he gets given - specifically remember him explaining how Post Match he will get data in a printed pack , several inches thick

I would assume there is a lot of data with certain noticeable themes and things  highlighted

Interestingly , You don’t see or hear of  LJ at opposition matches ,, but with the full footage of every game available and every data stat you could want, I guess he thinks it unnecessary

Id still like to see my opponents eyes on personally

Yep, a tv camera only captures so much of the pitch.  I know the data that comes out can help fill in the gaps, but it’s not as good as seeing what’s going on between your CB and their CF on the halfway line, when you’re in their penalty area.

 The season before last, I spent a bit of time watching Hogan (Brentford at the time).  He would run across the line and get picked up by Flint or Magnússon.  As he travelled horizontally, Flint would pass him to Mags to mark and vice versa.  Nothing untoward there.  However when Brentford were in good possession, he would do exactly the same, but instead of fully running the horizontal and getting passed over, he would dart into the gap, with no one marking him.  It’s like Flint and Mags didn’t complete the handover.  Really interesting to watch.  Luckily he missed 3/4 one on ones that night.

[BS4 on Tour...]

I thought @Davefevs does our opposition analysis - it always makes for interesting reading and debate on here - I bet it’s more useful than the bamboozling guff that a paid team of analysts presents to our esteemed management team on a weekly basis....”Football is a simple game complicated by idiots...”

[Davefevs]

15 minutes ago, BS4 on Tour... said:

I thought @Davefevs does our opposition analysis - it always makes for interesting reading and debate on here - I bet it’s more useful than the bamboozling guff that a paid team of analysts presents to our esteemed management team on a weekly basis....”Football is a simple game complicated by idiots...”

I’ll take that as a compliment.  You do wonder whether there is too much detail to take in. We supposedly buy players with football intelligence don’t we?

[southvillekiddy]

The technology that is developing is amazing but the crucial fact is that only the best quality staff will make the best use of it and have a distinct advantage over the opposition.

[Davefevs]

3 minutes ago, southvillekiddy said:

The technology that is developing is amazing but the crucial fact is that only the best quality staff will make the best use of it and have a distinct advantage over the opposition.

It still needs understanding, assimilation and then translation into the things footballers understand and can take into the pitch. That is the art / skill. 

[chinapig]

On 04/12/2018 at 13:11, Davefevs said:

The big question is the interpretation of the “data” (not just numbers) and decision to do something with it or not, eg tweak the team or not. 

Second is what then happens in the game itself. 

I think @BobBobSuperBob has asked what qualifications our analysts have and I don’t think he’s asking for degrees, but foutball interpretation qualifications. 

I worked with a very clever guy who could pull dats out of a “database” for fun. What he couldn’t do was answer whether it answered the brief or whether the brief was right in the first place or even worse whether the data was accurate or not. That’s where people like me were useful.

@Beni71 headed up our data team!

There was a great piece of analysis last season that pointed to the fact that our set up was too narrow. The heat map showed a big yellow-orangey-reddy blob in the centre of the pitch stretching from our half into theirs. Lots of people instantly moaning about no width. 

However the problem was that the heat map used average positions, and COD and Pato - our two widemen, switched flanks regularly through the game, affecting their average position! Left wing for 10 minutes, right wing for 10 minutes equal central average position!!!!

As someone who works in analytics I recognise what you are saying. However, often the problem is that the customer has no clear idea of what information they need to support their decision-making.

Frequently they have never really thought about what the key factors are that influence performance, which means you have to do an awful lot of analysis just to get them to first base. If you don't know the right questions you won't get the right answers. I would guess that is common in football circles.

Mind you my experience of senior British managers in the private and public sectors has led me to conclude that a sizeable proportion are practically functionally innumerate, so I wouldn't single out football people!