downendcity Posted December 4, 2018 Report Share Posted December 4, 2018 There have been numerous threads on here regarding ffp - the impact on us and our rivals and the scepticism from some posters that we are naive and others have benefitted, and will continue to do so, by breaching the rules without sanction. It looks like EUFA are looking at Man City and their "abuse" of sponsorship deals to get around ffp limitations. Obviously there is still a way to go before a verdict, and Man City might wriggle out of it, but it is interesting to see the recognition that fines are no deterrent to wealthy clubs and it wold be a refreshing eye opener if Man City are found guilty and are then banned from Champions League. If it should happen ( a big if) it will then be interesting to see hat action, if any, the Premier League will take as I presume that EUFA ffp rules must run in line with Premier League. This is the article from the Talksport site this morning. Manchester City face Champions League ban over Financial Fair Play breach An independent investigation into the club's finances was started in the wake of recent Football Leaks' revelations By Billy Hawkins 4th December 2018, 6:54 am Updated: 4th December 2018, 7:50 am Manchester City could be banned from the Champions League after an independent investigation into alleged Financial Fair Play (FFP) breaches. Recently published documents from Football Leaks, including emails from club executives, suggest that almost £60million was paid from the club’s owners, the Abu Dhabi United Group, when it should have been paid by airline sponsor Etihad. 1 Sheikh Mansour owns Man City through the Abu Dhabi United Group City have previously been fined by UEFA for breaching FFP regulations, and, according to The Times, the punishment for a second breach could be a ban from UEFA’s continental competition. Manchester City are claimed to be ‘deliberately flouting the regulations’, per The Sun, with a source saying: “You can’t hit a club like City with a fine. It has to be something that hurts.” An independent investigation into the leaked documents was commissioned last month, and it is expected to recommend charges against City. Aleksander Ceferin, the UEFA president, confirmed that the investigation will be completed ‘very soon’. “We are assessing the situation,” he said. “Very soon we will have the answers on what will happen in this concrete case.” UEFA have previously punished clubs for breaching FFP, with Galatasaray banned from the Champions League for breaking the financial sanctions back in 2016. It is stated the Etihad Stadium club may take legal action against UEFA if they are hit with a sanction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted December 4, 2018 Report Share Posted December 4, 2018 By rights, them and PSG for that matter should be out- even if only a seasons ban. I've got a feeling that European Courts as I've said before might- and I stress it's a might- make an exemption from usual competition rules etc for sport on grounds that sport has a certain social value etc. Or it could cause FFP to be in tatters- only Courts could ultimately decide that at the UEFA level. The specificity of sport and the extent to which it applies to UEFA's FFP probably would decide such a case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shtanley Posted December 4, 2018 Report Share Posted December 4, 2018 I love Football leaks. What a tremendous thing they're doing. More exposure is needed on these cheating clubs and also those clubs operating immorally in the dark. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
downendcity Posted December 4, 2018 Author Report Share Posted December 4, 2018 17 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said: By rights, them and PSG for that matter should be out- even if only a seasons ban. I've got a feeling that European Courts as I've said before might- and I stress it's a might- make an exemption from usual competition rules etc for sport on grounds that sport has a certain social value etc. Or it could cause FFP to be in tatters- only Courts could ultimately decide that at the UEFA level. The specificity of sport and the extent to which it applies to UEFA's FFP probably would decide such a case. You just know that big clubs like Man City and PSG - with the financial resources they have - would take any severe sanction to the highest court they can, with the expectation that the football regulators and administrators will not want, and probably can't afford, the time and potential disruption to competitions, let alone the costs involved. However, at some point the powers that be have to grasp the nettle if they are to stop the tale wagging the dog and prevent wealthy clubs riding roughshod over the rest, in their quest for domination. It is no good throwing the book at small fry clubs that do not have the means to appeal or fight their corner, they have to make an example of big clubs that are caught breaching the rules. If the issues in this case are proven then Man City have flagrantly and knowingly broken ffp rules, by passing off owners funds as sponsorship deals. I can't see how a court can override the rules of a competition that the club is fully aware of when they enter and especially if they have all the expensive legal counsel at their disposal and that will enable them to appeal the charge. As for sport having a social value, then In would argue that if we are to have any decent sort of society, then citizens should learn that they have to abide by the set of rules that apply everyone else, and they should expect to be punished for breaking those rules/laws. If a big club is allowed to escape proper punishment for breaking football's rules, what sort of message does that send to society, let alone other football clubs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ollywhyte Posted December 4, 2018 Report Share Posted December 4, 2018 If they are banned from European Competition I hope the Premier League also clamp down on it, a substantial points deduction should do it. Man City epitomise everything that is wrong with modern day football. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted December 4, 2018 Report Share Posted December 4, 2018 13 minutes ago, downendcity said: You just know that big clubs like Man City and PSG - with the financial resources they have - would take any severe sanction to the highest court they can, with the expectation that the football regulators and administrators will not want, and probably can't afford, the time and potential disruption to competitions, let alone the costs involved. However, at some point the powers that be have to grasp the nettle if they are to stop the tale wagging the dog and prevent wealthy clubs riding roughshod over the rest, in their quest for domination. It is no good throwing the book at small fry clubs that do not have the means to appeal or fight their corner, they have to make an example of big clubs that are caught breaching the rules. If the issues in this case are proven then Man City have flagrantly and knowingly broken ffp rules, by passing off owners funds as sponsorship deals. I can't see how a court can override the rules of a competition that the club is fully aware of when they enter and especially if they have all the expensive legal counsel at their disposal and that will enable them to appeal the charge. As for sport having a social value, then In would argue that if we are to have any decent sort of society, then citizens should learn that they have to abide by the set of rules that apply everyone else, and they should expect to be punished for breaking those rules/laws. If a big club is allowed to escape proper punishment for breaking football's rules, what sort of message does that send to society, let alone other football clubs? There would be a ban in place while they challenge it, that's how I think it should be anyway- to let them play while they're challenging it, don't think UEFA would like that! Agreed- this is what happens. Big clubs in smaller or even mid range Leagues when it comes to European competition, get banned. Think even a moderately sized club like Galatasaray got banned from Europe a year or 2 ago, yet their breach in terms of total size or in terms of flagrancy was nothing like (I suspect) Man City and PSG for example. Way I would see that is that maybe after the facts changed, after it was knowingly covered up then maybe they could punish in that sense- because UEFA (and everyone outside the club) wouldn't have been in possession of the full facts. That said they came to a se to a settlement agreement so I don't know if you can punish again- would double jeopardy apply here? Agreed. All equal before the law- be it sport or society needs to be the way of it. @nebristolred It is- for Rubin Kazan read Galatasaray and many others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebristolred Posted December 4, 2018 Report Share Posted December 4, 2018 Amazing how clubs like Rubin Kazan get banned from European for two seasons over FFP breaches but the big clubs get away with it continuously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
'Orns Posted December 4, 2018 Report Share Posted December 4, 2018 12 minutes ago, ollywhyte said: If they are banned from European Competition I hope the Premier League also clamp down on it, a substantial points deduction should do it. Man City epitomise everything that is wrong with modern day football. Absolutely Anyone of a certain age will remember that fantastic Liverpool team of the late 70s / early 80s, they bought one player a season, but done so with the money they won from winning trophies. Same as United in the 90s Clubs like City (although they are fantastic to watch right now) and the early days of Abramovich's Chelsea will never get my respect in the same way Football is so bland right now, every year my love for it gets chipped away a little more Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Portland Bill Posted December 4, 2018 Report Share Posted December 4, 2018 Genuine question. What about clubs with massive debts, for instance Manchester United have debts of £500 million plus. What’s to stop Man City just running up a massive debt like United, how do United get around ffp rules? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted December 4, 2018 Report Share Posted December 4, 2018 That's a good question that. I vaguely remember that originally Platini's views on FFP were related to debt not necessarily losses. When he first devised it he had some very interesting ideas, including making a new European Cup and the like but on this he originally was quite hot on debt. However over time, it evolved into losses because he realised, or maybe was maneuvered into/persuaded to take a position (with the possible threat of breakaways?) that regulating debt wasn't or shouldn't be the primary purpose but losses. His view originally were something like breakeven and debt a big worry, but losses okay if they will definitely be backed. However it changed As to your q, Man Utd don't make losses so they are fine- debt is fine as long as there is the ability to service it. Man City made huge losses in those early years and as we know may have covered certain things up as per Football Leaks, which UEFA see as bad, whereas United are broadly profitable breakeven but have external debt over x years which UEFA are probably relaxed about. A key problem he would have had with a Man City type scenario, so the argument goes is that if something happens to the source of the funding or the owners/benefactors suddenly lose interest then the club is absolutely screwed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EnderMB Posted December 4, 2018 Report Share Posted December 4, 2018 Tinfoil hat time. I believe that UEFA are more than happy for the likes of Man City and PSG to disregard any FFP rules, because the rules are purely in place to ensure that owners put money into the club, and by proxy into the sport. If it's all external money, UEFA see none of that, and it's worthless to them. It's why smaller teams like Galatasaray and Rubin Kazan will get ****** by UEFA for the slightest indiscretion, but they won't clamp down on the mega-billionaires. It's this reason why I firmly believe that the smaller clubs that have been punished before are the ones that should be taking UEFA to court. If UEFA are showing favouritism in how they enforce FFP, there is an easy case for these teams to win, and they'll all come away with tens of millions in lost revenue. A year out of the Champions League won't hurt Man City or PSG. If they want to recoup lost revenue they could just replace their continental matches with expensive friendlies in the USA, Qatar, or the UAE. Hell, for £100m a rich sheikh could probably get Man City vs PSG on his yacht. If UEFA were serious, the ban would need to send a message, and that would mean a five year ban from all European competition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original OTIB Posted December 4, 2018 Report Share Posted December 4, 2018 1 hour ago, nebristolred said: Amazing how clubs like Rubin Kazan get banned from European for two seasons over FFP breaches but the big clubs get away with it continuously. Just look at dirty Leeds in 2007. Yes, they lost points and went into league one but they really should have been liquidated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebristolred Posted December 4, 2018 Report Share Posted December 4, 2018 1 hour ago, Portland Bill said: Genuine question. What about clubs with massive debts, for instance Manchester United have debts of £500 million plus. What’s to stop Man City just running up a massive debt like United, how do United get around ffp rules? Pretty sure Man Utd's debts are only a consequence of the fact that Glazer's bought them with borrowed money, which was back in 2003 and before FFP. Since then United have made profits and therefore don't have issues with FFP. I think! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original OTIB Posted December 4, 2018 Report Share Posted December 4, 2018 35 minutes ago, nebristolred said: Pretty sure Man Utd's debts are only a consequence of the fact that Glazer's bought them with borrowed money, which was back in 2003 and before FFP. Since then United have made profits and therefore don't have issues with FFP. I think! + they pay next to no corporation tax. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted December 4, 2018 Report Share Posted December 4, 2018 1 hour ago, EnderMB said: Tinfoil hat time. I believe that UEFA are more than happy for the likes of Man City and PSG to disregard any FFP rules, because the rules are purely in place to ensure that owners put money into the club, and by proxy into the sport. If it's all external money, UEFA see none of that, and it's worthless to them. It's why smaller teams like Galatasaray and Rubin Kazan will get ****** by UEFA for the slightest indiscretion, but they won't clamp down on the mega-billionaires. It's this reason why I firmly believe that the smaller clubs that have been punished before are the ones that should be taking UEFA to court. If UEFA are showing favouritism in how they enforce FFP, there is an easy case for these teams to win, and they'll all come away with tens of millions in lost revenue. A year out of the Champions League won't hurt Man City or PSG. If they want to recoup lost revenue they could just replace their continental matches with expensive friendlies in the USA, Qatar, or the UAE. Hell, for £100m a rich sheikh could probably get Man City vs PSG on his yacht. If UEFA were serious, the ban would need to send a message, and that would mean a five year ban from all European competition. Agreed. @The Original OTIB Are we in a position to throw stones about financial management even at Leeds, given 1982 and that? On Man Utd, not just that they don't pay corporation tax- in 2016/17 they actually got a tax credit of £24.3m according to their accounts! Actually they seem to have got a tax credit for at least 2012/13-2016/17. Not looked into it further so far... @nebristolred Actually took a brief look at some of their accounts and they actually made some losses in recent times- how much of that is down to the Glazers' debt I don't know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original OTIB Posted December 4, 2018 Report Share Posted December 4, 2018 1 hour ago, Mr Popodopolous said: Agreed. @The Original OTIB Are we in a position to throw stones about financial management even at Leeds, given 1982 and that? Yes: very different. Go back and refresh your memory. It is complex. On Man Utd, not just that they don't pay corporation tax- in 2016/17 they actually got a tax credit of £24.3m according to their accounts! Actually they seem to have got a tax credit for at least 2012/13-2016/17. Not looked into it further so far... @nebristolred Actually took a brief look at some of their accounts and they actually made some losses in recent times- how much of that is down to the Glazers' debt I don't know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taz Posted December 4, 2018 Report Share Posted December 4, 2018 If they were covering up "financial figures", whats to say that UEFA aren't already aware of it? Otherwise known as taking a "donation" to overlook the issue..... Wouldn't be the first time that brown paper bags have appeared at a high level in football... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted January 16, 2019 Report Share Posted January 16, 2019 Quick update on this one. https://www.theguardian.com/football/2019/jan/15/manchester-city-refuse-comment-uefa-ffp-allegations To me, if you obstruct, refuse to even deal with the issue, with UEFA the Governing body- well all competitions have rules, I'd kick them out for that alone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lrrr Posted January 16, 2019 Report Share Posted January 16, 2019 They've just been invited to make a comment, don't exactly see where their benefit is to make one. UEFA haven't threatened any action etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted January 16, 2019 Report Share Posted January 16, 2019 Surely it's a case of refusing to cooperate. We'll see anyway... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.