Les Reed

[Lrrr]

1 minute ago, Robbored said:

Imv it wasn’t a valid post because of too many certainly incorrect assumptions of what is actually going on within AG.

Based upon your own assumptions of what goes on within AG?

[RumRed]

4 minutes ago, Robbored said:

Imv it wasn’t a valid post because of too many certainly incorrect assumptions of what is actually going on within AG.

A lot of people on here don’t know what’s going on at AG, hence the perfectly reasonable OP and the fact others are interested in discussing it.

 

If you’d posted reasonably (and preferably unpatronisingly) about what you know then perhaps an interesting debate could happen?  

A wtf, ffs and facepalm hardly opens an interesting conversation does it?

[Robbored]

1 minute ago, hodge said:

Based upon your own assumptions of what goes on within AG?

Not assumptions  - I don’t make assumptions, I pay attention to everything going on at City - facts in other words.

[Lrrr]

2 minutes ago, Robbored said:

Not assumptions  - I don’t make assumptions, I pay attention to everything going on at City - facts in other words.

Because everything City put out through official channels is always 100% truth....

[Robbored]

3 minutes ago, RumRed said:

A lot of people on here don’t know what’s going on at AG.

And that’s half the problem RR. 

All the facts are available to those who listen to the various interviews from high level people at AG. 

[RumRed]

12 minutes ago, Robbored said:

And that’s half the problem RR. 

All the facts are available to those who listen to the various interviews from high level people at AG. 

Well let’s get a mission statement, a 5 year plan, a required set of KPIs published then?  Not a conversation at a lunch for people old enough or rich enough to retire.

KPIs are the most basic of management tools.

On this thread you have done nothing that negates the OPs point apart from effectively say you know what’s going on and attempting to ridicule them?

[RedLionLad]

22 minutes ago, RumRed said:

A lot of people on here don’t know what’s going on at AG, hence the perfectly reasonable OP and the fact others are interested in discussing it.

 

If you’d posted reasonably (and preferably unpatronisingly) about what you know then perhaps an interesting debate could happen?  

A wtf, ffs and facepalm hardly opens an interesting conversation does it?

It just brings the conversation down to his level........meaning his post count rises quite rapidly.

[steviestevieneville]

7 hours ago, Davefevs said:

That is certainly how the likes of Swansea did it, knowing that the Head-Coach is easier and cheaper to replace than a whole group of players.  They build the identity, and the head-coach adheres to it.  Laudrup, Rodgers, Monk all adopted a style that made recruitment easier, or at least the players they inherited.

 

Agree Dave and @RumRed I thought the club wanted similar to the Swansea idea. A style of play you identify with the club , a head coach and players to fit that system and therefore fairly seamless if the head coach needed replacing . What we seen to have is somewhere in between that. 

[exAtyeoMax]

8 hours ago, Robbored said:

Wasn’t ‘trashing’ the op at all  - simply questioning  why it was necessary to post such a thread for the reasons I subsequently explained.....

Seemed a perfectly reasonable question by the op. 

Does Bristol City require a DoF, perhaps someone like Les Reed who has just left Saints?

I don’t know much about him or the set up at Saints but I’d be happy to discuss the pros and cons of such an appointment on this thread.

 

[Pezo]

8 hours ago, Robbored said:

Not assumptions  - I don’t make assumptions, I pay attention to everything going on at City - facts in other words.

From your history I would describe you more the the surmise type category rather than sticking to cold hard facts along with pretty much everyone else on here.

You just do it in a rather obnoxious lording kind of way (to be clear I'm not saying you're obnoxious I don't know you, it just come across that way in your writing style). 

[TV Tom]

Is this the same Les Reed who was the lead singer for the Velvet Underground?

[Robbored]

6 minutes ago, harrys said:

Is this the same Les Reed who was the lead singer for the Velvet Underground?

The same Loou Reed who wrote about his time as a heroin addict with his song ‘ Perfect day?’ 

[BS4 on Tour...]

11 hours ago, hodge said:

Doesn't change Reed's performance and what his role entailed 

Yes but the only quotes in the piece you were posted were from Mark Hughes and how he sees his own role changing at Southampton ‘going forwards’ now Reed has gone - but Hughes isn’t there anymore - that’s all I was pointing out...

[spudski]

I can see the benefit of a DoF...as it will allow LJ to concentrate more on just coaching the first team, and MA less on recruitment and more on just the financial side.

Many Clubs still work with a Coach/CEO team. However...for it to work well, you need top recruitment and great scouting and analysts.

A director of football is employed to oversee medium and long-term strategy. They work with owners and the Coach to identify a club philosophy and ensure it is implemented. The aim is to ensure that the club remains on the right path and is not forced into short-term measures.

They would be tasked to implementing the 'City Way' asked by SL...which would set out what the club expects, what behaviours it looks for from players and what values best represent Bristol City. They may even have some influence over style of football, from the academy to the first team.

SL has asked LJ and MA to do this. They and their team, have over the past couple seasons, started to implement what SL wants. Right throughout the Club. He trusts them both to do it.

The Club want to be in a position where they have a transfer policy which is not dictated by the man in the dugout. This allows long-term planning and should ensure that managerial departures do not trigger a ripping down and rebuild program.

We haven't seen that from LJ...as he has recruited long term as well as for now.

What we don't know is what was asked for in our 'playing style'.

Was it something asked by SL...or left to LJ to decide? Did SL have any influence in what our Clubs playing style would be?

Did he ask LJ to implement that style, and put in a business plan, to recruit and put in place long term? A strategy to recruit and play accordingly through all the teams at the Club?

My guess...and it is a guess...is that he did, and put MA in as his CEO to help with running the financial side of things.

A DoF would need to continue that plan...be more involved in Recruitment and identifying players. Overseeing the Academy and other footballing sides of the Club. Leaving LJ to focus solely on the first team, and relieve him from other duties at the Club. Imo...he may have too much on his plate away from the first team.

 

 

[Major Isewater]

Walk on the wild side.

[BS4 on Tour...]

52 minutes ago, spudski said:

I can see the benefit of a DoF...as it will allow LJ to concentrate more on just coaching the first team, and MA less on recruitment and more on just the financial side.

Many Clubs still work with a Coach/CEO team. However...for it to work well, you need top recruitment and great scouting and analysts.

A director of football is employed to oversee medium and long-term strategy. They work with owners and the Coach to identify a club philosophy and ensure it is implemented. The aim is to ensure that the club remains on the right path and is not forced into short-term measures.

They would be tasked to implementing the 'City Way' asked by SL...which would set out what the club expects, what behaviours it looks for from players and what values best represent Bristol City. They may even have some influence over style of football, from the academy to the first team.

SL has asked LJ and MA to do this. They and their team, have over the past couple seasons, started to implement what SL wants. Right throughout the Club. He trusts them both to do it.

The Club want to be in a position where they have a transfer policy which is not dictated by the man in the dugout. This allows long-term planning and should ensure that managerial departures do not trigger a ripping down and rebuild program.

We haven't seen that from LJ...as he has recruited long term as well as for now.

What we don't know is what was asked for in our 'playing style'.

Was it something asked by SL...or left to LJ to decide? Did SL have any influence in what our Clubs playing style would be?

Did he ask LJ to implement that style, and put in a business plan, to recruit and put in place long term? A strategy to recruit and play accordingly through all the teams at the Club?

My guess...and it is a guess...is that he did, and put MA in as his CEO to help with running the financial side of things.

A DoF would need to continue that plan...be more involved in Recruitment and identifying players. Overseeing the Academy and other footballing sides of the Club. Leaving LJ to focus solely on the first team, and relieve him from other duties at the Club. Imo...he may have too much on his plate away from the first team....

A good post Spud.....interesting stuff.

If we were to go for a DoF I’d hope we’d be talking to the guy who discovered and/or developed Rio Ferdinand, Joe Cole, Michael Carrick, Jermain Defoe, Glen Johnson, Frank Lampard etc from kids into international footballers playing for the top clubs in this country....he’s got a very impressive track record of success.

But too many on here will disagree with this because they’ve been taken in by woefully inaccurate reports, rumours, speculation and social media posts about how he ‘bankrupts every club he’s ever worked for’ - except it was at only one club where he spent more on transfers than he recouped in fees and that was during one of his spells at Pompey....in all his other managerial jobs he brought in more money in transfers than he paid out....but, it’s been made clear, a lot of our fans on here aren’t interested in facts or experienced ‘been there done that’ guys and that’s fine, that’s their prerogative and opinion....but football is still a relatively simple game....no need to complicate it too much....yes it’s moved on, but the word ‘dinosaur’ is tossed around far too lazily and often these days...

[BobBobSuperBob]

2 minutes ago, BS4 on Tour... said:

A good post Spud.....interesting stuff.

If we were to for a DoF I’d be interested in talking to the guy who discovered and/or developed Rio Ferdinand, Joe Cole, Michael Carrick, Jermain Defoe, Glen Johnson, Frank Lampard etc from kids into international footballers playing for the top clubs in this country....

But too many on here will disagree with this because they’ve been taken in by woefully inaccurate reports and social media posts about how he ‘bankrupts every club he’s ever worked for’ - except it was at only one club where he only ever spent more on transfers than he recouped in fees and that was during one of his spells at Pompey....in all his other managerial jobs he brought in more money in transfers than he paid out....but as we know, a lot of our fans on here aren’t interested in facts or experienced ‘been there done that’ guys and that’s fine, that’s their opinion....but football is still a relatively simple game....no need to complicate it too much....yes it’s moved on, but the word ‘dinosaur’ is tossed around far too lazily and often these days...

The problem being now the philosophy and plan is already set

If we were to recruit a DOF/ Sporting Director he would have to agree with and buy into that philosophy , and have the skills to deliver (Unless SL wants to run with the DOFs ‘new’ philosophy) 

Im not a massive Reed fan , but he would fit into that philosophy , and certainly has experience , and some success in doing so

 

Pretty hypothetical IMHO as I’m sure LJ would not want it and I cant see SL being strong enough to impose one 

I

[LondonBristolian]

37 minutes ago, BS4 on Tour... said:

A good post Spud.....interesting stuff.

If we were to go for a DoF I’d hope we’d be talking to the guy who discovered and/or developed Rio Ferdinand, Joe Cole, Michael Carrick, Jermain Defoe, Glen Johnson, Frank Lampard etc from kids into international footballers playing for the top clubs in this country....he’s got a very impressive track record of success.

But too many on here will disagree with this because they’ve been taken in by woefully inaccurate reports, rumours, speculation and social media posts about how he ‘bankrupts every club he’s ever worked for’ - except it was at only one club where he spent more on transfers than he recouped in fees and that was during one of his spells at Pompey....in all his other managerial jobs he brought in more money in transfers than he paid out....but, it’s been made clear, a lot of our fans on here aren’t interested in facts or experienced ‘been there done that’ guys and that’s fine, that’s their prerogative and opinion....but football is still a relatively simple game....no need to complicate it too much....yes it’s moved on, but the word ‘dinosaur’ is tossed around far too lazily and often these days...

The problem with that is you are describing someone who has never worked as a Director of Football and never shown any interest in working as a Director of Football and there is no reason to assume his skills as a manager would transfer across. If we wanted to get Redknapp as a manager and he wanted to come, the club should do that rather than pussy footing around bringing him in into do a job which isn't necessarily the right fit for him. I'd rather we didn't buy strikers and play them on the wing and I'd rather we didn't recruit managers and appoint them as Directors of Football for the same reason. 

You speak of facts but the fact is the top clubs in Europe have a clear distinction between managers and Directors of Football. Guardiola is appointed as a manager, not a director of football. Likewise Klopp, Valverde, Zidane etc. Meanwhile Txiki Begiristain, Jordi Mestre (DoF at Barca, who I had to Google) and  the equally Google-needing Hasan Salihamidžić at Bayern all have never managed a club.

If we want to appoint a big name manager then let's at least get them in as a bloody manager. Square peg in round hole approaches of getting veteran managers who want to manage DoF roles are pretty much recipes for disaster. 

[Natchfever]

13 hours ago, Davefevs said:

No, he isn’t....and you know exactly what SSN is talking about.  You don’t have to play the same card on every post.  Try to contribute constructively.  It’s quite soothing!!

I liaise witn my Programme Manager, But I don’t report directly to him.

I think a number of us feel that LJ would be better served by having a football man between him and MA rather than nothing.

Having said that I’d rather have his son Harrison in our midfield!!

He came across rather well last night on Sky.

[spudski]

DoF's need to have experience from throughout a Club.

Look at for example Steve Walsh who left Everton last season...still available.

Has worked with some of the the best managers and some of the best Clubs...as an analyst, Scout, assistant manager, involved in academy etc. Knows exactly how a Club runs and what's needed to run it successfully.

You don't need an 'ex manager' who has no experience of all of those elements.

Steve Perryman is also a very good type of fit.

You need someone up to date with all methods of running a modern Club.

[Mr Popodopolous]

13 hours ago, Davefevs said:

That is certainly how the likes of Swansea did it, knowing that the Head-Coach is easier and cheaper to replace than a whole group of players.  They build the identity, and the head-coach adheres to it.  Laudrup, Rodgers, Monk all adopted a style that made recruitment easier, or at least the players they inherited.

 

Would argue Monk not so much and their ethos began with Martinez or perhaps even latter Kenny Jackett.

Reed would be a useful choice I think- provided he had no managerial ambitions at all these days. Way it (often) has worked in Europe is quite different to here.

It's going back a bit now but I remember Tottenham had Pleat as DoF- and that probably caused serious friction as he was an ex manager and indeed often filled in when managers department- if you're an incumbent manager you will feel on edge with that.

Ideally what you want perhaps is someone who is a blend of football, business, the football industry as a whole, knowledge of the game here and abroad, contacts...and with zero ambitions at all to manage.

Not many of those around in not just Championship but probably UK football and maybe further afield in all honesty.

As for Reed, yeah recruitment on playing side declined but I think their biggest recruitment errors were appointing Pellegrino and Hughes!!

[Davefevs]

1 minute ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Would argue Monk not so much and their ethos began with Martinez or perhaps even latter Kenny Jackett.

Yeah, agree, couldn’t remember those late last night

Reed would be a useful choice I think- provided he had no managerial ambitions at all these days. Way it (often) has worked in Europe is quite different to here.

It's going back a bit now but I remember Tottenham had Pleat as DoF- and that probably caused serious friction as he was an ex manager and indeed often filled in when managers department- if you're an incumbent manager you will feel on edge with that.

Ideally what you want perhaps is someone who is a blend of football, business, the football industry as a whole, knowledge of the game here and abroad, contacts...and with zero ambitions at all to manage.

It’s kinda what Tinnion is doing with the young’uns.

Not many of those around in not just Championship but probably UK football and maybe further afield in all honesty!!

As for Reed, yeah recruitment on playing side declined but I think their biggest recruitment errors were appointing Pellegrino and Hughes!!

Agree.

 

[BS4 on Tour...]

1 hour ago, LondonBristolian said:

The problem with that is you are describing someone who has never worked as a Director of Football and never shown any interest in working as a Director of Football and there is no reason to assume his skills as a manager would transfer across. If we wanted to get Redknapp as a manager and he wanted to come, the club should do that rather than pussy footing around bringing him in into do a job which isn't necessarily the right fit for him. I'd rather we didn't buy strikers and play them on the wing and I'd rather we didn't recruit managers and appoint them as Directors of Football for the same reason. 

You speak of facts but the fact is the top clubs in Europe have a clear distinction between managers and Directors of Football. Guardiola is appointed as a manager, not a director of football. Likewise Klopp, Valverde, Zidane etc. Meanwhile Txiki Begiristain, Jordi Mestre (DoF at Barca, who I had to Google) and  the equally Google-needing Hasan Salihamidžić at Bayern all have never managed a club.

If we want to appoint a big name manager then let's at least get them in as a bloody manager. Square peg in round hole approaches of getting veteran managers who want to manage DoF roles are pretty much recipes for disaster. 

All fair points - I’m aware of the distinction between a manager and a director of football...I wasn’t aware that so many clubs had appointed DoFs who have never played for or managed a football team. Even the gas had a DoF - and he’d never played league football:

https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/lennie-lawrence-sacked-bristol-rovers-3357160

And everyone has to start somewhere....I wouldn’t be surprised if the person about whom I was talking ends up as DoF at AFC Bournemouth...

[Mr Popodopolous]

1 hour ago, LondonBristolian said:

The problem with that is you are describing someone who has never worked as a Director of Football and never shown any interest in working as a Director of Football and there is no reason to assume his skills as a manager would transfer across. If we wanted to get Redknapp as a manager and he wanted to come, the club should do that rather than pussy footing around bringing him in into do a job which isn't necessarily the right fit for him. I'd rather we didn't buy strikers and play them on the wing and I'd rather we didn't recruit managers and appoint them as Directors of Football for the same reason. 

You speak of facts but the fact is the top clubs in Europe have a clear distinction between managers and Directors of Football. Guardiola is appointed as a manager, not a director of football. Likewise Klopp, Valverde, Zidane etc. Meanwhile Txiki Begiristain, Jordi Mestre (DoF at Barca, who I had to Google) and  the equally Google-needing Hasan Salihamidžić at Bayern all have never managed a club.

If we want to appoint a big name manager then let's at least get them in as a bloody manager. Square peg in round hole approaches of getting veteran managers who want to manage DoF roles are pretty much recipes for disaster. 

Excellent post, totally agree.

Going back a bit now in modern terms but I vaguely remember Pleat was DoF at Tottenham.

That can't have led to a good working relationship- if you are the incumbent and you have someone who isn't even that old and who has had a fairly lengthy managerial career you'll always think in the back of your mind 'Is he after my job? Is he always on my side...'

It was probably something out of nothing but when managers departed he took over as caretaker a few times- that's the one reservation I have with an idea of Joe Jordan here as DoF- would LJ be looking over his shoulder, anxious that someone's after his job? That would lead to big friction at best.

Another good example- when Joe Kinnear was at Luton early 2000's same division as us? Well he immediately demoted the Luton manager and appointed himself when he was made DoF!!

[Mr Popodopolous]

1 hour ago, spudski said:

DoF's need to have experience from throughout a Club.

Look at for example Steve Walsh who left Everton last season...still available.

Has worked with some of the the best managers and some of the best Clubs...as an analyst, Scout, assistant manager, involved in academy etc. Knows exactly how a Club runs and what's needed to run it successfully.

You don't need an 'ex manager' who has no experience of all of those elements.

Steve Perryman is also a very good type of fit.

You need someone up to date with all methods of running a modern Club.

What about (in due course, talking some way into the future) Tinnion as a hypothetical future DoF?

Definitively no managerial ambitions as far as I can tell not anymore, had a variety of roles at the club, had his academy stuff in Spain so should have developed contacts there, and knows the youth system here big time with his role here. Knows the club very well too.

[WarksRobin]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-england-berkshire-46627080/drink-driver-filmed-going-wrong-way-on-m4-near-reading

FFS LJ

[spudski]

1 hour ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

What about (in due course, talking some way into the future) Tinnion as a hypothetical future DoF?

Definitively no managerial ambitions as far as I can tell not anymore, had a variety of roles at the club, had his academy stuff in Spain so should have developed contacts there, and knows the youth system here big time with his role here. Knows the club very well too.

You need someone with vast experience at imo a higher level if you want to improve. Plus someone with connections throughout football.

Not saying BT hasn't that...but I'd want someone with higher experience.

[1960maaan]

6 hours ago, spudski said:

I can see the benefit of a DoF...as it will allow LJ to concentrate more on just coaching the first team, and MA less on recruitment and more on just the financial side.

Many Clubs still work with a Coach/CEO team. However...for it to work well, you need top recruitment and great scouting and analysts.

A director of football is employed to oversee medium and long-term strategy. They work with owners and the Coach to identify a club philosophy and ensure it is implemented. The aim is to ensure that the club remains on the right path and is not forced into short-term measures.

They would be tasked to implementing the 'City Way' asked by SL...which would set out what the club expects, what behaviours it looks for from players and what values best represent Bristol City. They may even have some influence over style of football, from the academy to the first team.

SL has asked LJ and MA to do this. They and their team, have over the past couple seasons, started to implement what SL wants. Right throughout the Club. He trusts them both to do it.

The Club want to be in a position where they have a transfer policy which is not dictated by the man in the dugout. This allows long-term planning and should ensure that managerial departures do not trigger a ripping down and rebuild program.

We haven't seen that from LJ...as he has recruited long term as well as for now.

What we don't know is what was asked for in our 'playing style'.

Was it something asked by SL...or left to LJ to decide? Did SL have any influence in what our Clubs playing style would be?

Did he ask LJ to implement that style, and put in a business plan, to recruit and put in place long term? A strategy to recruit and play accordingly through all the teams at the Club?

My guess...and it is a guess...is that he did, and put MA in as his CEO to help with running the financial side of things.

A DoF would need to continue that plan...be more involved in Recruitment and identifying players. Overseeing the Academy and other footballing sides of the Club. Leaving LJ to focus solely on the first team, and relieve him from other duties at the Club. Imo...he may have too much on his plate away from the first team.

 

 

I have usually been against a DoF, mainly due to it seeming like  2 ends working against the middle sort of thing. The recent Mark Hughes dismissal flagged up some of my misgivings. I posted this before but when Hughes was sacked, a Jurno was on Talksport and said, earlier in his reign Hughes had said he has final say over signings (sound familiar?). Then when the DoF was sacked he came out and said , maybe he would get more say in transfers. The guy went on to tell the story that the CB signed from Bayern (?) was against Hughe's's wishes, MH actually said the guy wasn't good enough. 
Now this sort of sounds a little like City at the moment. LJ has said similar about his 'final say' and yet has mentioned 'club signings' .  Now I don't expect Lj to come out and do a full on Darrell Clarke and slate the club, but a little  transparency might be nice.
Anyway, today on Talksport talk was obviously about ManU and Potch. Apparently the DoF, or Director of Sport as they called him, who was with Pochettino at Southampton has been linked with ManU. Now while the focus of their article was more on Pochettino and his potential move, I was more interested in the situation at Utd. They have a Manager and Ed Woodward, sounds similar to here, when Jose wanted players Woodward could block the signings and that cannot be healthy. A man with overall yes/no over players who has practically no football knowledge. Again, a little like here.
To finish the ManU bit, the theory is Paul Mitchell (currently at Leipzig) , would be used as an inducement to get Pochettino . They worked together at Southampton and Spurs, and he is thought only to have left because of lack of available funds at Spurs.
Back to City, @spudski I am coming around to your way of thinking. After listening to the piece earlier, I think a Dof/SoF would be a good foil between the man and who recognises the positions he requires, and the man who does the deals. If ManU can see the benefits of changing to this sort of set up, why not us?

LJ has been in a very favoured position, he could be so confident in keeping his job, he was able to spend some of his budget on players for the future. That is something that most normal appointments would be wary of , as it would impact on the 'instant success' needed at most clubs. What I don't really understand is the "club signings" . Why would they need to buy players away from those pinpointed by the manager? We have brought in many players for the future/academy I wonder how many LJ has sanctioned and how many MA or the club has taken a punt on 

[WhistleHappy]

Les Reed? ffs

We're trying to build a steady ship here … The last thing we need right now, as the January window nears, is a f****ng walk on the wild side. 

[RedLionLad]

On 20/12/2018 at 08:27, Pezo said:

From your history I would describe you more the the surmise type category rather than sticking to cold hard facts along with pretty much everyone else on here.

You just do it in a rather obnoxious lording kind of way (to be clear I'm not saying you're obnoxious I don't know you, it just come across that way in your writing style). 

He's got more posts than you