Safe Standing Update - Now with images of AG

[redsapper]

Rail seats allowed New Green Guide sets out the rules

 

Seats with barriers compliant with all-seater policy The Sports Ground Safety Authority has now published the long-awaited new edition of the Guide to Safety at Sports Grounds, also known as the Green Guide. Within the 'Spectator Accommodation - Seating' section of the Guide there is, for the first time, a sub-section on what the SGSA call 'seats incorporating barriers' and 'seats with independent barriers'. Following publication of the Guide, the SGSA has also confirmed that it is possible, subject to certain provisos, e.g. Safety Advisory Group approval and an agreed management plan for the area concerned, for grounds that include seats incorporating barriers within their provision of exclusively seated accommodation to be licensed as compliant with the all-seater policy. This gives all clubs with all-seater stadia the opportunity to enhance spectator safety in this way in areas of their ground where more active supporters are inclined to stay on their feet throughout extended moments of excitement, rather than sit passively in their seat for the full 90 minutes. It also enables clubs to get such areas of their grounds ready to be operated formally as standing areas as and when government policy allows and ready to take advantage of any future potential for increasing capacity in such areas. In addition to these opportunities, there are, however, also risks. In some scenarios it is possible that capacity will be reduced. The document linked to below sets out to explain and illustrate these opportunities and risks: Seating incorporating barriers - Implications of new safety guidelines Copied from an email I have received today.

[phantom]

Interesting development

I hate the fact the SAG can still have influence on the outcome - knowing how they seem to be OTT for us, could be a problem?

[Calculus]

'Extended moments of excitement'?

Not likely to apply to us then....

(Joking apart, this is clearly a step in the right direction).

[Blagdon red]

33 minutes ago, phantom said:

Interesting development

I hate the fact the SAG can still have influence on the outcome - knowing how they seem to be OTT for us, could be a problem?

Actually, I think that SAGs will see this as a positive move, too.

Until now they have felt forced to tolerate persistent standing and also powerless to instruct clubs to put any structural measures in place to mitigate the safety risk that they see in such behaviour.

Now, they are no longer powerless in this regard. They can insist that in areas where persistent standing is prevalent clubs MUST install 'seats incorporating barriers' in order to make them safer.

[Mr Popodopolous]

Well done @Blagdon red

All that stuff you and others put in on safe standing roadshow etc? This seems a very positive step and doubtless your hard, dedicated work played its part. 

[Shtanley]

We should have entire blocks or upper section of the south stand safe standing. 

[phantom]

Any idea what happens next?

Does it have to be passed through parliament?

[City Cat]

I'm sure at the moment it'll be a top priority

[Mr Popodopolous]

I would also- though gradients could work against this- roll it out to the top few rows of stands even at the sides. Or the top row at least.

Because I bet up and down the country each week you get needless conflict, bad blood and basically time wasting between stewards trying to make those on top row sit and people arguing that it doesn't create a problem because there's nobody behind them.

[Ska Junkie]

This has to be a positive move and sensible too. Standing in seated areas is actually dangerous, more so than the old terracing IMHO.

Well done to all those pushing for the introduction of safe standing. 

[AshtonPark]

1 hour ago, Shtanley said:

We should have entire blocks or upper section of the south stand safe standing. 

That won’t happen in a million years 

[Shtanley]

23 minutes ago, AshtonPark said:

That won’t happen in a million years 

Then we wait patiently.

[Blagdon red]

3 hours ago, Shtanley said:

We should have entire blocks or upper section of the south stand safe standing. 

Look out for some images from the SC&T looking at just such options ... hopefully being published very soon.

@Mr PopodopolousThanks for the kind words. And gradient won't be an issue any more. The new Guide permits seats with barriers at up to 35 degrees, the same as for normal seats. Indeed it could be argued that the steeper the gradient, the greater the urgency with which SAGs should make the case for seats with barriers to be installed.

[Shtanley]

7 minutes ago, Blagdon red said:

Look out for some images from the SC&T looking at just such options ... hopefully being published very soon.

@Mr PopodopolousThanks for the kind words. And gradient won't be an issue any more. The new Guide permits seats with barriers at up to 35 degrees, the same as for normal seats. Indeed it could be argued that the steeper the gradient, the greater the urgency with which SAGs should make the case for seats with barriers to be installed.

Would be good to know when discussions with the club about such a thing are taking place. I'll mention it the next time anyone from the club meet me to chat about OSIB.

[Blagdon red]

34 minutes ago, Shtanley said:

Would be good to know when discussions with the club about such a thing are taking place. I'll mention it the next time anyone from the club meet me to chat about OSIB.

It's not so much with the club that discussions need to take place, but rather with Ashton Gate Limited. However, I'm sure that now they are able to make Section 82 and like-minded fans in that area safer, they will want to waste no time in doing so.

[phantom]

2 hours ago, Blagdon red said:

It's not so much with the club that discussions need to take place, but rather with Ashton Gate Limited. However, I'm sure that now they are able to make Section 82 and like-minded fans in that area safer, they will want to waste no time in doing so.

Would imagine rugby supporters would be very keen to utilise the sections too

[Dave L]

Great news and long overdue 

[22A]

5 hours ago, Ska Junkie said:

 Standing in seated areas is actually dangerous, more so than the old terracing IMHO.

Look at the fans trying to escape the burning stand at Bradford in 1985; many of them running to escape the flames were trippig on the seat legs and falling. They not only injured themselves, but hampered the escape of those behind them.

meanwhile fans stood on te terracing at the sides of the stand were able to walk away without hinderance.

[pongo88]

Putting safe standing into Area 51 would be easy as that is a standing section, though City call it a singing section. The problems could arise if it was put into other areas as those already there might not want to stand and might not want to move 

[Blagdon red]

7 hours ago, Shtanley said:

We should have entire blocks or upper section of the south stand safe standing. 

Here are those images that I promised. I think they look very cool!

https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/exclusive-pictures-show-how-bristol-2355511

 

[City fan 1982]

Looks a good area to have a group of fans who sing and wave flags and two poles

[WolfOfWestStreet]

I'm desperate for this. Please city bring it in whatever the coat.

[Shtanley]

I hope they allow it to slowly spread out along the south stand, think enough people would be up for being a part of it. If I recall you showed me images of the upper half of the SS as safe standing. Was that an idea when the SS was first being built or do you see that as a possibility in the future? @Blagdon red

[exAtyeoMax]

1 hour ago, Blagdon red said:

Here are those images that I promised. I think they look very cool!

https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/exclusive-pictures-show-how-bristol-2355511

 

I think those images look excellent. I would still be able to sit in my seat but it would mean those unable or not wanting to stand would have to move from the top section.

[redsapper]

I did not get a season ticket for this season due to needing to buy it late. When I was ready to buy one all of the tickets for the signing section were already gone!

Looking at the guides their is a possibility if increasing the capacity if the club is able to add an extra step in the areas where it switches to rail seating. If the club were to do the to the back half of the stand it may be possible to add an extra 1000 to 1500 ish to the back of the south stand and singing section as they can then fit in 43 Customers (fans) per 28 seats. 

 

[Blagdon red]

1 hour ago, Shtanley said:

I hope they allow it to slowly spread out along the south stand, think enough people would be up for being a part of it. If I recall you showed me images of the upper half of the SS as safe standing. Was that an idea when the SS was first being built or do you see that as a possibility in the future? @Blagdon red

As you may recall, when the redevelopment was being planned, Bristol Sport's original idea, in conjunction with the fans, was to have rail seats along the front of the Dolman and the front of the South Stand. Fans subsequently expressed a preference for the rear of the SS, so the plan changed accordingly. Of course, ultimately the govt wouldn't sanction it, so it couldn't go ahead.

Moving forward to 2018/19, the back of the SS is the logical area for an initial expansion from the SE quadrant. That's because you need to avoid creating sightline obstructions for nearby seated fans. By going across the width of the stand at the rear between the 'lounge terraces' you achieve this.

I agree with you about slowly spreading. In my vision it would be:

1) Put rail seats in the current SE quadrant

2) Survey the level of further demand and then put rail seats on the corresponding number of rows across the back of the SS

3) In future years, continue surveying demand and adding further rows (moving forward) as and when demand increases

 

[Shtanley]

15 minutes ago, Blagdon red said:

As you may recall, when the redevelopment was being planned, Bristol Sport's original idea, in conjunction with the fans, was to have rail seats along the front of the Dolman and the front of the South Stand. Fans subsequently expressed a preference for the rear of the SS, so the plan changed accordingly. Of course, ultimately the govt wouldn't sanction it, so it couldn't go ahead.

Moving forward to 2018/19, the back of the SS is the logical area for an initial expansion from the SE quadrant. That's because you need to avoid creating sightline obstructions for nearby seated fans. By going across the width of the stand at the rear between the 'lounge terraces' you achieve this.

I agree with you about slowly spreading. In my vision it would be:

1) Put rail seats in the current SE quadrant

2) Survey the level of further demand and then put rail seats on the corresponding number of rows across the back of the SS

3) In future years, continue surveying demand and adding further rows (moving forward) as and when demand increases

 

I wholeheartedly agree with your 3 steps. Think the demand will be there personally. I think it’s up to the club and stadium people to realise this demand and act appropriately and quickly. 

[Blagdon red]

For anyone whose not seen them on The Post's website, here are those images and the SC&T press reliease.

First the release:

City fans’ vision of the future

Supporters welcome green light for safer seating

 

 

Bristol City fans today welcomed the news that supporters who like to spend more time on their feet than sat in their seats will soon be able to do so in greater safety. That’s because the government’s Sports Ground Safety Authority this week confirmed the green light for the use of special stadium seats that incorporate barriers to keep livelier fans safe, for instance by preventing them from falling over the seat in front when wildly celebrating a goal. A major update of the official stadium safety guidelines for England and Wales, the first for 10 years, now provides clubs like Bristol City, who are required by law to operate all-seater stadia, with advice on enhancing the safety of spectators in areas of seating occupied by their more vibrant fans.

 

The new guidelines suggest that clubs should consider installing what are being termed ‘seats incorporating barriers’ (also known as ‘rail seats’) as added safety measures in such areas. And now the Bristol City Supporters Club & Trust has exclusively revealed to The Post images of how it would like to see such seating used at Ashton Gate.

“We all know that the Section 82 group and many other fans in the southeast corner of Ashton Gate like to sing and chant for 90 minutes and spend a good deal of the match on their feet. That, we feel, would therefore be the first place to enhance spectator safety in this way,” says Supporters Club & Trust board member Jon Darch, who has also been heavily involved over the last decade in the national campaign for the introduction of such seating. “In due course, when the all-seater policy is revoked, as now seems almost inevitable, that section would thus also be ready to be formally operated as a standing area. If the demand was then there for a larger standing area, our suggestion, if the fans currently holding season tickets there were amenable to it, would be to expand it across the back of the South Stand, as we show in our images“, added Darch.

The ideas have been shared in recent days with members of the Section 82 supporters group, who have warmly welcomed the suggestions. “Section 82 fully support the proposed installation of rail seating within Ashton Gate. We'll continue to work closely with the SC&T to help that become a reality”.

In 2014, to showcase the concept, Bristol City became the first club in the UK to install rail seats. Back then, however, the small block could be used only for demonstration purposes, as the interpretation of the all-seater policy at that time did not deem them compliant. As that has now changed, supporters are hopeful that the club will once again be pioneers in this field. And nor are they expecting the Robins to foot the bill for these safety enhancements alone. "I'm sure that City will regard investing in spectator safety in this way as the right thing to do”, said Stu Rogers, chair of the Supporters Club & Trust. “However, we recognise that the cost is not insignificant and would welcome the opportunity to explore with the club ways in which the SC&T, Section 82 and fans in general might be able to help by making a financial contribution."

...

And here are the images (the use of purple and lime is just for illustrative purposes to help the different seats to stand out from the conventional red ones):

This shows the SE quadrant (the existing Section 82 area) fitted with rail seats.

 

This shows a possible idea for an expansion of that area when safe standing is formally approved and if ST holders affected are OK with it.

 

This shows that expanded area running across to the other corner. By running the full width of that area, it creates no sightline obstructions for any fans sitting nearby.

 

This shows you a close-up of the seats depicted here in lime. Being in effect the rear row of the seated area, the idea is that these would be moulded plastic seats, rather than the metal versions in the areas depicted in purple.

 

And, finally, a more close-up shot of the S82 area alone.

[Toffee dog]

Would be great to see this happen, would it actually mean more people in a chosen area so increasing capacity or would it remain at its current number, or are we not at that stage to answer that?

[Blagdon red]

1 hour ago, Toffee dog said:

Would be great to see this happen, would it actually mean more people in a chosen area so increasing capacity or would it remain at its current number, or are we not at that stage to answer that?

If the all-seater policy changes (which now seems almost certain to happen) and rail seats can be used not just as a means of providing added safety in seated areas in case fans stand, but can then be formally used as standing accommodation, then, yes, the rows in the SS are sufficiently deep to permit the creation of the required intermediate step and (if exits, concourse facilities etc. also permit this) then capacity could indeed be increased. It's certainly an opportunity that I'm sure Ashton Gate Ltd will be hoping to utilise.

This document explains more.