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marcofisher

Why can't LJ play Eliasson and O'Dowda in the same team?

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Driving me up the wall this.

We have two class wingers here who can commit players, are creative and who also provide energy and drive to our team. 

Yet we insist on always leaving one of them out and playing Pato and Weimann in every single lineup.

Weimann is not a winger, this is pretty clear, neither does Pato offer as much energy as Eliasson or O'Dowda do. Pato hasn't been awful recently admittedly, but apart from the occasional deft touch I can't see what he brings over 90 minutes that these two wouldn't. Both would offer more going forward as well as going back than Pato does, and then Weimann could play off Fammy, or otherwise, Pato could be played off Fammy and Weimann dropped.

I am really at a loss to explain this, seeing a lot of comments saying that we need to play two up front in order to be more creative and score more, but I personally disagree. I think this is the main problem with all the matches I have managed to watch so far, and if we played these two in the same lineup we would be carving open teams like this with a lot more ease whilst not losing anything defensively.

Thoughts?

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13 minutes ago, marcofisher said:

Driving me up the wall this.

We have two class wingers here who can commit players, are creative and who also provide energy and drive to our team. 

Yet we insist on always leaving one of them out and playing Pato and Weimann in every single lineup.

Weimann is not a winger, this is pretty clear, neither does Pato offer as much energy as Eliasson or O'Dowda do. Pato hasn't been awful recently admittedly, but apart from the occasional deft touch I can't see what he brings over 90 minutes that these two wouldn't. Both would offer more going forward as well as going back than Pato does, and then Weimann could play off Fammy, or otherwise, Pato could be played off Fammy and Weimann dropped.

I am really at a loss to explain this, seeing a lot of comments saying that we need to play two up front in order to be more creative and score more, but I personally disagree. I think this is the main problem with all the matches I have managed to watch so far, and if we played these two in the same lineup we would be carving open teams like this with a lot more ease whilst not losing anything defensively.

Thoughts?

Spot on. 

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15 minutes ago, Super said:

Playing with ten men with Wiemann in that position.

Unfortunately its 10 men whatever position Weimann plays in. 

Deeadful. Certainly showing us what Derby fans told us. And yes, i know he’s not up front but his form whilst up front, bar his lucky start to the season, is not great either. 

Saturday has to be COD and Eliasson. Rotherham will sit so we need to try and break them down with width. 

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I thought Weimann was actually hard done by today. O'Dowda was getting regular support from Kelly and overlapping runs to help him. Pisano was either staying back or running to the box rather than helping Weimann, it often left AW when he had the ball at least 1 on 1 with a winger (sometimes another defender being the next closest) without an easy ball to get out of the situation. He also made a lot of runs having the beating of the left back only for the player on the ball to choose a different option. 

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2 minutes ago, hodge said:

I thought Weimann was actually hard done by today. O'Dowda was getting regular support from Kelly and overlapping runs to help him. Pisano was either staying back or running to the box rather than helping Weimann, it often left AW when he had the ball at least 1 on 1 with a winger (sometimes another defender being the next closest) without an easy ball to get out of the situation. He also made a lot of runs having the beating of the left back only for the player on the ball to choose a different option. 

I agree with this in part, support for Weimann was minimal but probably through instruction from the bench rather than Pisano being lazy. Based on this we would have been more of a threat if  Eliasson played as he’s more of an out and out winger. 

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5 minutes ago, real_bristol said:

I agree with this in part, support for Weimann was minimal but probably through instruction from the bench rather than Pisano being lazy. Based on this we would have been more of a threat if  Eliasson played as he’s more of an out and out winger. 

Oh yeah not blaming Pisano, just an observation. Weimann is good at giving and going so didn't help him to not have a supporting player if only to bounce the ball off.

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O' Dowda and Eliasson are both left footed. The best position for both of them is the left wing. So it is two players competing for one spot. O'Dowda's goal v Norwich was down the left on his left foot, Eliasson crossed from the left wing with his left foot to set up Weimann v Forest, Weimann v QPR, Weimann v Swansea, Paterson v Ipswich and others. 

You can play one of them on the right wing but then they are always cutting inside, and you have no natural width and are not stretching the play. However Eliasson arrived from the right to score v Brentford away on his left foot, cut in from the right to score with his left foot vs Watford away last season, and O'Dowda cut inside to score v Cardiff on his left foot last season, so it can work, but you can only have one of them in their best position. 

Having said that, a half effective one of them might be better than what we are seeing at the moment. Which one would you allow to play down the left and which one would you put on the right?

 

 

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1 minute ago, Boston Red said:

O' Dowda and Eliasson are both left footed. The best position for both of them is the left wing. So it is two players competing for one spot. O'Dowda's goal v Norwich was down the left on his left foot, Eliasson crossed from the left wing with his left foot to set up Weimann v Forest, Weimann v QPR, Weimann v Swansea, Paterson v Ipswich and others. 

You can play one of them on the right wing but then they are always cutting inside, and you have no natural width and are not stretching the play. However Eliasson arrived from the right to score v Brentford away on his left foot, cut in from the right to score with his left foot vs Watford away last season, and O'Dowda cut inside to score v Cardiff on his left foot last season, so it can work, but you can only have one of them in their best position. 

Having said that, a half effective one of them might be better than what we are seeing at the moment. Which one would you allow to play down the left and which one would you put on the right?

 

 

An old school way of looking at it, full backs overlap nowadays so it is pretty common for wingers to cut inside. And with communication they can swap wings throughout the match. 

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2 minutes ago, Boston Red said:

O' Dowda and Eliasson are both left footed. The best position for both of them is the left wing. So it is two players competing for one spot. O'Dowda's goal v Norwich was down the left on his left foot, Eliasson crossed from the left wing with his left foot to set up Weimann v Forest, Weimann v QPR, Weimann v Swansea, Paterson v Ipswich and others. 

You can play one of them on the right wing but then they are always cutting inside, and you have no natural width and are not stretching the play. However Eliasson arrived from the right to score v Brentford away on his left foot, cut in from the right to score with his left foot vs Watford away last season, and O'Dowda cut inside to score v Cardiff on his left foot last season, so it can work, but you can only have one of them in their best position. 

Having said that, a half effective one of them might be better than what we are seeing at the moment. Which one would you allow to play down the left and which one would you put on the right?

 

 

O'Dowda/Weimann swapped wings for a while first half and O'Dowda came to RW with Pato LW when we swapped to 442. Seems we like to have wingers cutting in.

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Weimann is awful , his football brain is non existent and he’s actually quite slow. Johnsons obviously doing it for balance on the right but I’d rather see jack hunt there , and that’s saying something!

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I think our biggest problem today was in wide areas. O'Dowda did ok. But we were over reliant on him, with nothing coming from the right side. I'd definitely drop Weimann and have Eliasson in. Gives us a threat on both flanks then. 

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16 minutes ago, marcofisher said:

An old school way of looking at it, full backs overlap nowadays so it is pretty common for wingers to cut inside. And with communication they can swap wings throughout the match. 

True, but I still think you are better off having a left footer down the left wing. Nearly all of Eliasson's assists and COD's goal this season have been with a leftie down the left. 

Watching Ashley Young receiving the ball on his right foot as a left wing back for the whole World Cup last summer was torture. We could never go forward down the left as a result. You are always facing sideways or backwards if you receive the ball with the foot opposite to the side you are on. 

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2 hours ago, hodge said:

O'Dowda/Weimann swapped wings for a while first half and O'Dowda came to RW with Pato LW when we swapped to 442. Seems we like to have wingers cutting in.

Is our 4141 a bit too rigid / symmetrical?  We could play O’Dowda / Eliasson as traditional wingers wide left.  Doesn’t mean Weimann has to play as a traditional right winger, couldn’t he play more as a wide forward (Thomas Muller-type).

Would That also give us a bit more flexibility on subs, so we don’t have to change formation to bring a striker on?

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2 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Is our 4141 a bit too rigid / symmetrical?  We could play O’Dowda / Eliasson as traditional wingers wide left.  Doesn’t mean Weimann has to play as a traditional right winger, couldn’t he play more as a wide forward (Thomas Muller-type).

Would That also give us a bit more flexibility on subs, so we don’t have to change formation to bring a striker on?

Talking about today they both stayed fairly within their roles, O'Dowda occasionally came a bit more central to collect the ball but Weimann stayed pretty wide. In terms of rigidity it could be a consequence of seemingly wanting us to be tighter and harder to beat, working as a unit rather than a more fluid shape. I think we had a lot of flexibility on the pitch/bench today. O'Dowda offers a great amount in that regard, can play either wing or centrally if needed. Weimann's ability to play either wing, Pato central and wide. Eliasson off the bench on either wing, so I don't feel like we're restricted with our changes off the bench.

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Davefevs asks a key question which is very similar to the one many of us want to ask, namely when we go one up with this starting 11 (unaminously our best at present) what should we change? 

I feel Corey Smith or Liam Walsh could be the answer but injuries have taken their toll on us again.

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3 hours ago, Hampshire Red said:

Davefevs asks a key question which is very similar to the one many of us want to ask, namely when we go one up with this starting 11 (unaminously our best at present) what should we change? 

I feel Corey Smith or Liam Walsh could be the answer but injuries have taken their toll on us again.

Agree with this point especially- that would give the security behind plus the extra man to better compete for possession- it's an attractive idea Eliasson on left, O'Dowda on right with Brownhill and Pack central and then Paterson behind Weimann. As you say though, Smith or Walsh would definitely give us a big option- Brownhill and Pack then one of those 2- then a bit higher on the left Eliasson, the same part of the pitch on the right- O'Dowda with Diedhiou up front at this time I guess.

               Brownhill Pack Walsh OR Smith

O'Dowda                                              Eliasson

                            Diedhiou   

4-3-2-1. I know that comes out as O'Dowda left to Eliasson right but it's definitely team as written right to left.

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13 hours ago, hodge said:

I thought Weimann was actually hard done by today. O'Dowda was getting regular support from Kelly and overlapping runs to help him. Pisano was either staying back or running to the box rather than helping Weimann, it often left AW when he had the ball at least 1 on 1 with a winger (sometimes another defender being the next closest) without an easy ball to get out of the situation. He also made a lot of runs having the beating of the left back only for the player on the ball to choose a different option. 

I like Pisano but he is not capable of running up and down the pitch like a nineteen year old .

He is huffing and puffing like the big bad wolf after a foray into the opponent’s half. 

 

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12 hours ago, Hampshire Red said:

Davefevs asks a key question which is very similar to the one many of us want to ask, namely when we go one up with this starting 11 (unaminously our best at present) what should we change? 

I feel Corey Smith or Liam Walsh could be the answer but injuries have taken their toll on us again.

                   Niki

     Pisano Kalas Webster Kelly

                Pack Brownhill

O’Dowda Weimann/Pato Eliasson

                    Dedhiou

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20 hours ago, hodge said:

I thought Weimann was actually hard done by today. O'Dowda was getting regular support from Kelly and overlapping runs to help him. Pisano was either staying back or running to the box rather than helping Weimann, it often left AW when he had the ball at least 1 on 1 with a winger (sometimes another defender being the next closest) without an easy ball to get out of the situation. He also made a lot of runs having the beating of the left back only for the player on the ball to choose a different option. 

He did deliver that lovely cross that Fammy headed just wide.

He's a busy player, but I agree with those who say Weimann is wasted on the wing.

In my book, the ideal use for Andi with our current set-up is as an impact sub, coming on at the very front of the attack when Diedhiou gets tired, as he does towards the end of every game.

 

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27 minutes ago, Red-Robbo said:

He did deliver that lovely cross that Fammy headed just wide.

He's a busy player, but I agree with those who say Weimann is wasted on the wing.

In my book, the ideal use for Andi with our current set-up is as an impact sub, coming on at the very front of the attack when Diedhiou gets tired, as he does towards the end of every game.

 

Agree.  My other suggestion is that we don’t have to play him as a true winger.  Let him float around to the right of Diedhiou, in a right sided forward role.  He can come inside, go outside, but generally let him have a bit of free reign when we have the ball.  When he is inside, it creates space for Pisano to go outside.FDE32B62-53FD-4856-9952-3B39C4181F9E.jpeg.2d50e92b793a2755ceace7691611d61b.jpeg

This was a pic I did with Jack Hunt v Preston, but sane principles apply.

I think playing our two wide men as out and out wingers makes it easier to defend against.  Imagine O’Dowda being able to float around as a left forward instead of hugging the touch-line?

Some one said yesterday, why does the ball always have to go wide?  Because our full-backs and “wingers” are told to stay wide.

To be honest, Marley Watkins could do a job in a wide forward role too.

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2 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Agree.  My other suggestion is that we don’t have to play him as a true winger.  Let him float around to the right of Diedhiou, in a right sided forward role.  He can come inside, go outside, but generally let him have a bit of free reign when we have the ball.  When he is inside, it creates space for Pisano to go outside.FDE32B62-53FD-4856-9952-3B39C4181F9E.jpeg.2d50e92b793a2755ceace7691611d61b.jpeg

This was a pic I did with Jack Hunt v Preston, but sane principles apply.

I think playing our two wide men as out and out wingers makes it easier to defend against.  Imagine O’Dowda being able to float around as a left forward instead of hugging the touch-line?

Some one said yesterday, why does the ball always have to go wide?  Because our full-backs and “wingers” are told to stay wide.

To be honest, Marley Watkins could do a job in a wide forward role too.

Like it Dave. 

After a poor first 45, Patto improved and started looking dangerous when he took a similar wide but cutting in role, yesterday.

He's another player I wouldn't necessarily start, but is a good game shaker-up if brought on at, say, the hour mark. 

We know LJ will never do that, but it's a nice thought.

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20 hours ago, nickolas said:

Unfortunately its 10 men whatever position Weimann plays in. 

Deeadful. Certainly showing us what Derby fans told us. And yes, i know he’s not up front but his form whilst up front, bar his lucky start to the season, is not great either. 

Saturday has to be COD and Eliasson. Rotherham will sit so we need to try and break them down with width. 

Lucky?? 😂😂

What absolute dribble, the bloke was playing extremely well, he was scoring and assisting nigh on every game he started up top, and you label it lucky?

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19 minutes ago, BCFC11 said:

Lucky?? 😂😂

What absolute dribble, the bloke was playing extremely well, he was scoring and assisting nigh on every game he started up top, and you label it lucky?

Yes i do as hes never done it anywhere else in his career so was clearly a blip. A lucky blip!!

hes now true to his old form. Average player im afraid. LJ has a great history of signing many of these!

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21 hours ago, cidercity1987 said:

Brentford arent the team to play both wingers given the way they dominate possession. Ill be disappointed if they dont start together on Saturday though.

Brentford are not the team to play 2 wingers against? They don’t dominate games anymore they are a different team now smith has gone to Villa. Been calling for these 2 to play together all season. They are most attacking creative wingers we have at club. If he wants to play someone behind Famara then switch it between weinmann and Pato and if we need a goal then chuck on a striker in there place. Boom!!

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How would you know if it was a ‘blip’ or not? Nobody does, seem to remember lots of Derby fans on social media shocked at how well he started with us. Until LJ bought Fammy back into the first 11 Wiemann was doing exceptionally well and should of stayed put but LJ has moved him to various positions and his form has dipped massively, winger or attacking midfielder he is not, play him central and he will score, sadly it won’t happen. @nickolas

Edited by BCFC11
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2 minutes ago, redpole said:

Brentford are not the team to play 2 wingers against? They don’t dominate games anymore they are a different team now smith has gone to Villa. Been calling for these 2 to play together all season. They are most attacking creative wingers we have at club. If he wants to play someone behind Famara then switch it between weinmann and Pato and if we need a goal then chuck on a striker in there place. Boom!!

Wouldn't be so sure- no they are not the same side as they were under Smith but actually (maybe at home more so) they do control the ball most weeks.

Yesterday- 49.3%, Bolton (H) 58.6%, Hull (A) 71.6%, Swansea (H) 62.6%. WBA (A) 44.9%, Sheff Utd (H) 65.8%, Middlesborough (H) 67.7%, QPR (A) 58.9%, Millwall (H) 62%, Norwich (A) 52.7%, Preston (A) 59.8% and finally us at home 51%. Average? Quite a bit over 50%, and overall it's about 58.74%.

However if we had a bona fide '3' in central midfield, then I think we could play both Eliasson and O'Dowda- especially at home.

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2 hours ago, Davefevs said:

I think playing our two wide men as out and out wingers makes it easier to defend against.  Imagine O’Dowda being able to float around as a left forward instead of hugging the touch-line?

ODowda could cause serious problems, love it when he runs at the defence and can go either way. One thing I would add though, yesterday he was in space wide and waiting for the ball. One thing he needs is early ball, give him chance to run at the defence before it's set. I'd like to see him instead of Pato, I think he would be more effective.

1 hour ago, BCFC11 said:

How would you know if it was a ‘blip’ or not? Nobody does, seem to remember lots of Derby fans on social media shocked at how well he started with us. Until LJ bought Fammy back into the first 11 Wiemann was doing exceptionally well and should of stayed put but LJ has moved him to various positions and his form has dipped massively, winger or attacking midfielder he is not, play him central and he will score, sadly it won’t happen. @nickolas

Agree , if Fam has to play I'd give Weimann a free role. He has to be one of the hardest working players I've seen, he has a bit pace , makes good runs and is unselfish. He might be what we need in a player to run beyond Fam. It may require a return to nearer a 442, but , specially at home Fam needs support, and we need more cutting edge.

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1 hour ago, BCFC11 said:

How would you know if it was a ‘blip’ or not? Nobody does, seem to remember lots of Derby fans on social media shocked at how well he started with us. Until LJ bought Fammy back into the first 11 Wiemann was doing exceptionally well and should of stayed put but LJ has moved him to various positions and his form has dipped massively, winger or attacking midfielder he is not, play him central and he will score, sadly it won’t happen. @nickolas

No. Not for me. 

Another expensive flop on the cards i think ( wages ). 

But hey, forums are for opinions and i’d love him to better my opinion as that will help the team!

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6 hours ago, 1960maaan said:

ODowda could cause serious problems, love it when he runs at the defence and can go either way. One thing I would add though, yesterday he was in space wide and waiting for the ball. One thing he needs is early ball, give him chance to run at the defence before it's set. I'd like to see him instead of Pato, I think he would be more effective.

Agree , if Fam has to play I'd give Weimann a free role. He has to be one of the hardest working players I've seen, he has a bit pace , makes good runs and is unselfish. He might be what we need in a player to run beyond Fam. It may require a return to nearer a 442, but , specially at home Fam needs support, and we need more cutting edge.

Totally agree he needs the ball quicker at wide that goes for both sides. As much as I love pack, I think he slows things down for us when we want to break at speed. I love pack and he can keep the ball and pass it like no other at the club, however in my opinion I think he does get rid of the ball the quickest. I want us to sign a player who can break at pace and spot a pass. 

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Weiman scored his goals when FM was banned, LJ adjusted to bring FM back in meaning weiman had to play out of position. Callum or Elliason had to be benched to bring Pato in, who in the main gives us nothing other than exciting jinking runs toward goal usually followed by a misplaced pass and then when the opposition press they start that press through the area where Pato is, full knowing they will not be realistically challenged! It happens so much every team we meet will be told that he is ineffective!

All of which give us a big problem, FM without service may as well stay home and LJs selection prevents that service!

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Well, England managers and pundits didn’t think Lampard and Gerrard could play in the same team...why the hell not?! They were both brilliant, intelligent players.....the indecision at that time was the reason Scholes retired from international football cos he was shoved out wide and got fed up with it....we mucked around the player that Pele called the best English player of his generation.....

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8 hours ago, BS4 on Tour... said:

Well, England managers and pundits didn’t think Lampard and Gerrard could play in the same team...why the hell not?! They were both brilliant, intelligent players.....the indecision at that time was the reason Scholes retired from international football cos he was shoved out wide and got fed up with it....we mucked around the player that Pele called the best English player of his generation.....

Pele says a lot of things. 

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