Mr Popodopolous Posted April 6, 2020 Author Report Share Posted April 6, 2020 Forgot to tag but @downendcity you might be interested in Reading and their possible FFP issues... ...Notwithstanding the fact that it is Reading of course. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bristol Rob Posted April 7, 2020 Report Share Posted April 7, 2020 https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/52184178 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted April 7, 2020 Author Report Share Posted April 7, 2020 Birmingham's troubles may not be over yet...though tbh I'm not fully sure what the EFL's case is here. What it does tell me though is that the EFL will fight anything and everything all the way- under this leadership anyway, Harvey nah don't see it. That has to be a good sign IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lrrr Posted April 8, 2020 Report Share Posted April 8, 2020 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lrrr Posted April 8, 2020 Report Share Posted April 8, 2020 Above confirmed we were pretty much bang on the median wage and just under the average, probably changed a lot with our summer purchases though so we may be just about upper top half of the table for wages overall but per player we may still be paying relatively mid table. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin101 Posted April 8, 2020 Report Share Posted April 8, 2020 13th for wages paid 13th for wages/income 10th for revenue generated 12th for losses Suggests that we’ve been punching above our weight after all. At least up to this season. And it’s promising that we’re 10th for revenue generated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted April 8, 2020 Author Report Share Posted April 8, 2020 (edited) Remember and treat with a bit of caution as some of those clubs still haven't released accounts yet- however yes, there are some encouraging signs. That's Kieran Maguire/Price of Football @hodge ? Losses of course, though I know you'll know this but in case anyone reading isn't, are presumably those before profit on disposal of players and beneficial transactions let's call them- basically the Operating Losses? Think those Birmingham figures maybe for 2017/18 though, at least in terms of the Operating loss. Edited April 8, 2020 by Mr Popodopolous Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin phantom Posted April 8, 2020 Admin Report Share Posted April 8, 2020 49 minutes ago, Robin101 said: 13th for wages paid 13th for wages/income 10th for revenue generated 12th for losses Suggests that we’ve been punching above our weight after all. At least up to this season. And it’s promising that we’re 10th for revenue generated. Only if money equates to guaranteed success Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted April 8, 2020 Author Report Share Posted April 8, 2020 (edited) Leeds accounts look interesting. I don't think they're in FFP trouble yet but if they stay down this season, cutbacks surely quite necessary. Courtesy of Kieran Maguire earlier. It's not shit or bust though, in terms of FFP, allowable costs and all that too- but changes would surely at some level be needed. Their commercial revenue, as usual, is very strong for a non PL club. Edited April 8, 2020 by Mr Popodopolous Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted April 8, 2020 Author Report Share Posted April 8, 2020 https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/football-league/coronavirus-news-latest-efl-championship-leeds-west-brom-aston-villa-reading-birmingham-wigan-a9454261.html Saw this elsewhere, decent read. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted April 13, 2020 Author Report Share Posted April 13, 2020 (edited) Couple of interesting lines. 1) 5-8 clubs could be in FFP trouble, possibly even possibly to the extent of points deductions to begin next season!? Whether as many as that got docked points is a different debate but if Parry and co apply things correctly... https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-8201753/Championship-rivals-fight-relaxing-rules-host-sides-set-fail-financial-fair-play.html 2) Though not strictrly Championship related, I couldn't help but notice when looking up the new PL head, which side he supports. Investigation was apparently carried out and as we know cleared. Which side does he support/have a connection to- but in this case he apparently supports them? Think you maybe able to guess @Davefevs . Give people a clue...the same as: an ex PM (so they said!), the ex head of the Bank of England, the Chair of the West Midlands Combined Authorities Growth Strategy and the President-Designate of the FA... How handy! Edited April 13, 2020 by Mr Popodopolous Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarksRobin Posted April 13, 2020 Report Share Posted April 13, 2020 On 30/03/2020 at 11:34, Mr Popodopolous said: As far as I can tell, loans don't or shouldn't be classed as income for FFP- but that's a side issue for now! They could always impose a wage cut/deferral. For a start. Wonder what the terms of this loan would be, could be a slippery slope they're getting on. That £81.1m appeared in the cash flow as if it'd been paid though so their losses over this and last season...wow!! Unless of course that was a fudge too. :think: Definitely appears in statement of cash flows for 2017/18 though. What happens with Rooneys megabucks deal? I assume it will be automatically extended to see out the season but if the gambling sponsor doesn’t pay more contribution, Derby will have to fund all the extension. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted April 14, 2020 Author Report Share Posted April 14, 2020 20 hours ago, WarksRobin said: What happens with Rooneys megabucks deal? I assume it will be automatically extended to see out the season but if the gambling sponsor doesn’t pay more contribution, Derby will have to fund all the extension. Is an 18 month deal I believe, so is a bit moot currently, though happy to double check. That might be more of an issue for the next season if that is disrupted too. Sports Lawyer Kevin Carpenter on Sheffield Wednesday's charges- and I hope this and the Derby cases can be concluded by the season's end, maybe this hiatus will help in some ways. https://www.examinerlive.co.uk/sport/football/news/key-questions-addressed-sheffield-wednesdays-18076336 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted April 15, 2020 Author Report Share Posted April 15, 2020 (edited) Some interesting snippets- highlights what financial issues the EFL potentially has down the track. Quote There is a story of Wednesday owner Dejphon Chansiri pricing the club out of selling striker Jordan Rhodes in consecutive transfer windows and then subsidising his considerable wages on loan at Norwich City, who won promotion. Now back in Yorkshire, Rhodes has scored in one match this season. Chansiri rejected a bid of £1.5m for Keiren Westwood with the goalkeeper in the final year of his contract. Westwood signed a new two-year deal and has been jettisoned again by a different manager. Meanwhile, corporate ticket prices were hiked and Hillsborough is left with empty rows of plush boxes. No wonder they're in a mess and had to sell Hillsborough to, er themselves at a potentially overinflated, wrong yearly date- Chansiri eh?? Quote One star's salary in the Championship's top half is eating up the majority of their yearly broadcast revenue, which is around £7m. That cannot be right?? £140k per week in the Championship or nearly- only one I can think of who might command a salary within that ballpark would be Rooney and I thought 32Red were sorting that. Quote Sunderland valued Wigan's Will Grigg at around £300,000 before paying £3m on a panicked deadline day. Grigg, who almost left in January, has one League One goal in the last 12 months. That went well... Edited April 15, 2020 by Mr Popodopolous Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted April 16, 2020 Author Report Share Posted April 16, 2020 (edited) This would see a major offloading or adjustment to contracted at many clubs...Aston Villa would be particularly hard hit unlike say Norwich in terms of sides who might come back down, but it'd be a problem for most clubs. Taken from an article on Leeds Live- unsure where they sourced it from... Note it's just the first bit that would pose major problems, hopefully the 2nd and 3rd bits if complied with would show it's working. 4th bit offers timescale etc. @downendcity @Davefevs you might both be interested. Quote while the Championship may adjust the infamous 'Profit and Sustainability rules' in favour of a £20m wage cap. Could you imagine the adjustment for some clubs?? Firesale, rapid loaning out or you could have them on the payroll still but ineligible- ie players up to £20m and the rest kicking their heels in reserves, unselectable in the League. Those are the choices I'd go for- up to £20m on wages and firesale, rapidly loan out or ineligibility in the Championship. Quote EFL clubs may be stricter in future - with instant three point deductions being awarded to the points tally of clubs that fail to pay wages on a single month being proposed. I'd go with that! Good Governance... Quote Clubs will also need to present business plans to officials before the start of the season. Again, all good- is this not the case already? There are strong rules there, question is how well are these utilised? Quote The salary cap would need to be agreed by a voting majority, but if it is signed off it would come into play during the 21/22 season, and it is believed that the measures could be passed at an AGM this summer. 2021/22- gives a bit of breathing space but not that long for clubs to get their house in order. Could actually hinder relegated clubs moreso than now, or at least reduce their advantage- clubs relegated from PL that is. I'm still pretty favourable towards FFP though- problem is it isn't or hasn't generally been enforced correctly- but a salary cap, though a blunter instrument, does control cash flow better in and out of the club. Edited April 16, 2020 by Mr Popodopolous Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davefevs Posted April 16, 2020 Report Share Posted April 16, 2020 Wage cap is open to abuse, just like FFP. £20m will leave clubs at a huge disadvantage when / if they get promoted too. Same with £3.3m in Lg1 etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted April 16, 2020 Author Report Share Posted April 16, 2020 (edited) You're right of course- could introduce a Saracens type penalty for any side flouting, ie the equivalent of a 21 pts deduction as step 1, a second one if not put right by end of January window, and I'm not sure where the RFU found the third 35 points from. Would certainly scupper promotion hopes and may well relegate a club- could always automatically relegate a side in breach of course, you'd need a truly independent body, you'd need all accounts open to truly independent and external auditors like Gibson's idea...would all clubs go for it? I'd trust Parry to oversee it a lot better than Harvey though- he;s certainly got the track record and CV- both in football and outside of it! Think he has the will too, something I wonder about with Harvey in his final year or two. https://www.accountancyage.com/2002/02/13/profile-rick-parry-ce-of-liverpool-fc/ Article from even more years back, also suggests he has/had a background or knowledge of auditing. https://www.independent.co.uk/money/spend-save/the-suits-1593268.html Within football, there wouldn't be many better to a) Enforce and b) Look into and work out accounting tricks. Harvey was a joke by comparison. Agree about the secondary competitiveness point- there's no way that decent players would join, or agents would advise them to join a club newly promoted or with a possible paycut of say 80%. Assume £100m PL wage bill and that's just a basic calculation- probably more tbh! Edited April 16, 2020 by Mr Popodopolous Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lrrr Posted April 16, 2020 Report Share Posted April 16, 2020 On 15/04/2020 at 17:52, Mr Popodopolous said: That cannot be right?? £140k per week in the Championship or nearly- only one I can think of who might command a salary within that ballpark would be Rooney and I thought 32Red were sorting that. My hunch was player from a relegated club with no wage reduction clause in his contract. No idea how good this website is but I stuck in Mitrovic wage in google being my hunch and came up with this https://www.spotrac.com/epl/fulham-f.c/aleksandar-mitrovic-22937/ 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted April 17, 2020 Author Report Share Posted April 17, 2020 22 hours ago, hodge said: My hunch was player from a relegated club with no wage reduction clause in his contract. No idea how good this website is but I stuck in Mitrovic wage in google being my hunch and came up with this https://www.spotrac.com/epl/fulham-f.c/aleksandar-mitrovic-22937/ That's a good shout. The article wasn't fully clear as it said TV money with no parachute payments listed. Majority of TV revenue - could always be sloppy journalism? It's a crazy crazy League financially in any case. One of the craziest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted April 17, 2020 Author Report Share Posted April 17, 2020 Good article on Leeds and their accounts. Kieran Maguire and Swiss Ramble are two excellent sources. https://mobile.twitter.com/SwissRamble/status/1251034286729371653 Hopefully if he hasn't already, he can do summaries of Sheffield United (an exemplary example) and Reading £51m losses in last 2 seasons (before allowable costs but despite asset sales to related parties) but if using Renhe Sports ('only' off the top of my head £31m in those two years). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted April 17, 2020 Author Report Share Posted April 17, 2020 (edited) I was wrong, it was somewhere between £35-40m losses in 2 seasons- before allowable costs but also inclusive of profit on asset 'sales!" Finally some news though- @Davefevs @downendcity @Vincent Vega @chinapig https://twitter.com/JPercyTelegraph/status/1251177890567327745 Hopefully a) There will be some kind of judgement by the end of the season and b) If there is a penalty it can be applied in 2019-20, especially a points one. Interesting to see how it plays out...about to read the article, a tweet below suggests that Derby's will be in the same timeframe. Edited April 17, 2020 by Mr Popodopolous 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lrrr Posted April 17, 2020 Report Share Posted April 17, 2020 11 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said: https://twitter.com/JPercyTelegraph/status/1251177890567327745 Hopefully a) There will be some kind of judgement by the end of the season and b) If there is a penalty it can be applied in 2019-20, especially a points one. 10 point deduction, league doesn't recommence and teams vote to finish league as table stands like Scotland 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted April 23, 2020 Author Report Share Posted April 23, 2020 (edited) Part of it is behind a paywall but if anyone subscribes... https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2020/04/23/clubs-urge-efl-change-profitability-sustainability-rules-prevent/ Now to me, I think you have to make some adjustments for this. Some yes, but not scrap it altogether. Use a bit of common sense but OTOH nobody should be let off the hook unduly. I include the existing cases for Derby and Sheffield Wednesday in that, maybe Birmingham though they were punished last season and had other restrictions and this seems more of a technical breach than an FFP breach. Likewise no free pass for Reading, their accounts really make me wonder and if and when Aston Villa return the EFL will need to look afresh at the 3 years to May 2019. Use of projected accounts for final results maybe, as @Davefevs said before- this could be the starting point or could form part of a solution. Make some small adjustments for lost corporate revenue and lost matchday- these will differ per club and make it £39m + allowable costs + lost matchday and corporate revenue during this=FFP results. That'd be my preferred solution. At this stage anyway. Edited April 23, 2020 by Mr Popodopolous Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted April 24, 2020 Author Report Share Posted April 24, 2020 (edited) Exemplary example here- Sheffield United. Swiss Ramble has done a bit of a rundown of their accounts for last season and 3 years of rolling calculations- bravo! £12m for cost of promotion sounds pretty believable but what a job Wilder has done and is doing there! Edited April 24, 2020 by Mr Popodopolous Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lrrr Posted April 24, 2020 Report Share Posted April 24, 2020 41 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said: Exemplary example here- Sheffield United. Swiss Ramble has done a bit of a rundown of their accounts for last season and 3 years of rolling calculations- bravo! £12m for cost of promotion sounds pretty believable but what a job Wilder has done and is doing there! Didn't it say if they had dropped this season their revenue or costs would still be mid table championship Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted April 26, 2020 Author Report Share Posted April 26, 2020 On 24/04/2020 at 23:47, hodge said: Didn't it say if they had dropped this season their revenue or costs would still be mid table championship Possibly, not looked at them in depth- do you mean their current costs or do you mean had they stayed down? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lrrr Posted April 26, 2020 Report Share Posted April 26, 2020 3 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said: Possibly, not looked at them in depth- do you mean their current costs or do you mean had they stayed down? I can't remember the exact thing wording but I think it was along the lines of the amount their costs (I think it was costs) have gone up in the prem if they had been relegated this season it still would have been mid table in championship, even with increased wages of players brought in, promotion (and subsequent relegation) increases and decreases. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted April 26, 2020 Author Report Share Posted April 26, 2020 Some interesting results! Brentford- (pre-tax) profit of £24.3m last season!! There's a few interesting nuggets in there: Although the profit was £24.3m, this was brought about by a Gain on disposal of Player Registrations of £27.2m. Of more interest was "Other Operating Income" of £16.3m £13.66m of that was Profit on Sale of land. This bit is quite interesting. A note or summary under Other operating income. Quote The profit on sale of land represents the proceeds received or receivable to date of £49.5m attributable to the net costs of disposed land of £35.8m. This accounting profit relates to the transfer of certain parcels of land to the developer to enable them to build our new stadium. The remainder of the transaction will be effected over future accounting periods and will be based on the value of the stadium received against relevant attributable land values as disclosed in notes 12 and 21. :Question is I guess, how does stadium revaluation impact upon FFP? Is it relevant income for the EFL or... Interesting to note too that the revaluation is/as an uplift of £17.1m in 2018/19. Disposed of to a third party developer as per the agreement. However who is the third party? If it's Lionel Road or similar then that is controlled by Brentford one way or another. One other interesting note. They appear to have repaid £21.1m of loans in the financial year. Granted they received £7.2m in new loans but Net Financing is £13.95m- did they need to sell Maupay? Could be to external creditors of course. If it's Benham though... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted April 26, 2020 Author Report Share Posted April 26, 2020 (edited) One other piece of news. Is Chansiri up to his old tricks again? You all maybe interested in this @Davefevs @downendcity @hodge @Vincent Vega Sheffield 2 Limited, Sheffield 3 Limited and Sheffield 5 Limited have all extended their Reporting Periods. Sheffield 2 Limited when set up was due to initially have a Reporting Period running to 30th June 2020 which makes some sense as they were incorporated at CH on 21st June 2019. This was changed to 31st July 2019 so therefore aligned with the accounts ie to 31st July 2019 albeit initial period for one month or so- however a couple of weeks ago they've extended the Reporting Period to 31st July 2020. Which means that all things being equal we won't see those accounts until April 2021. Sheffield 3 Limited have done likewise- this is in fact possibly of more significance as they were the company who purchased or "purchased" Hillsborough. Sheffield 5 Limited. These initially had their accounts made up to 30th June 2020- this has now been aligned with the above. This company is or maybe significant as it is listed as the controlling party of Sheffield 3 Limited- the ones who brought Hillsborough of course.. This leads me on nicely to Sheffield 4 Limited. They were set up or incorporated at CH on June 20th 2019, and were the controlling party of Sheffield 3 Limned who purchased Hillsborough. This ceased on June 28th 2019 and they were replaced by Sheffield 5 Limited on said same date. Because... Sheffield 4 Limited had a proposal (formality?) to be wound up on 28th June 2019. Voluntary winding up was on 19th September 2019, came through at CH a week later. On Boxing Day 2019, Sheffield 4 Limited was no more! This was the date as per the Land Registry that the Hillsborough sale was stated as. I'm certainly not sure of the ins and outs but hope they get done over by the EFL/Independent Disciplinary Commission. *******. Wouldn't surprise me if they take advantage of Covid 19 to delay until end of July too for the main Sheffield Wednesday accounts. Only other club to do that at this level who haven't yet submitted is Derby...Brentford and Reading did but had them done by the timeframe but ability to be checked and signed off by auditors the issue due to this disruption. Edited April 26, 2020 by Mr Popodopolous 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davefevs Posted April 26, 2020 Report Share Posted April 26, 2020 They appear to be a bit of a mess, and good ole Mel over at Derby now struggling because players didn’t like his 50% cut / deferral proposal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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