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The Championship FFP Thread (Merged)


Mr Popodopolous

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The thing is they probably aren't breaking any rules, Mel Morris and his lawyers for the club are just very good at finding any loophole to work and it looks guilty to fans given the lengths they stretch the ethical boundaries of the rules.

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1 hour ago, davidoldfart said:

Drive a coach and horses through the rule book ,spend like its gone out of fashion then get a let off by the EFL ..

It is because big billy bollocks (Wayne Rooney’s Derby ) is a bigger club than Wednesday so we have to be lenient .

Wonder if S/Weds will start legal action against the EFL and seek to have their points rescinded.

 

Actually, it's very much in line with the Sheff Wed judgement. They got found guilty for how they reported the sale of the ground, not the act of selling it. Derby (iirc) were in trouble for inflating the value of their ground, which Wednesday were specifically found not guilty of. And as others have said, I would think that the EFL will appeal

The whole thing is an absolute farce, just ban clubs selling their grounds to their owners in this manner.

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https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/53751251
 

So. A few weeks ago, Derby received a loan from a 3rd party, which was secured against the stadium. 
 

Given this decision, it seems it was a legitimately priced purchase when Morris bought the stadium. 
 

So, Derby now don’t own the stadium. So the loan, being secured against the stadium, would surely be a loan to Morris himself (as stadium owner) and not to the club. Thus, this loan money can’t be money directly given to the club, but to Morris. Thus would only be able to be used as part of his own cash injections into the club, not as a source of ‘club’ earnings. 
 

Presumably? 

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27 minutes ago, Harry said:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/53751251
 

So. A few weeks ago, Derby received a loan from a 3rd party, which was secured against the stadium. 
 

Given this decision, it seems it was a legitimately priced purchase when Morris bought the stadium. 
 

So, Derby now don’t own the stadium. So the loan, being secured against the stadium, would surely be a loan to Morris himself (as stadium owner) and not to the club. Thus, this loan money can’t be money directly given to the club, but to Morris. Thus would only be able to be used as part of his own cash injections into the club, not as a source of ‘club’ earnings. 
 

Presumably? 

Clearly... confused-face | diari | Flickr

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55 minutes ago, Harry said:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/53751251
 

So. A few weeks ago, Derby received a loan from a 3rd party, which was secured against the stadium. 
 

Given this decision, it seems it was a legitimately priced purchase when Morris bought the stadium. 
 

So, Derby now don’t own the stadium. So the loan, being secured against the stadium, would surely be a loan to Morris himself (as stadium owner) and not to the club. Thus, this loan money can’t be money directly given to the club, but to Morris. Thus would only be able to be used as part of his own cash injections into the club, not as a source of ‘club’ earnings. 
 

Presumably? 

Loan charge/security- whatever exact category, Charge I think- was over all the Derby companies.

Think it was secured over the leasehold but it is worth noting that the charge appears on each of the following companies:

  1. Gellaw Newco 203- The overall group company- the top company in the group.
  2. The Derby County Football Club Limited- The club
  3. Sevco 5112- The controlling party of the 3 below, but no longer the club- see the first one.
  4. The Derby County FC Academy Limited- The academy
  5. Club DCFC Limited- Listed as Event Catering Activities.
  6. Stadia DCFC Limited- Think this is the commercial side but not wholly sure on this one. Happy enough to look into that a bit more.
  7. Gellaw Newco 202 Limited- The company who purchased Pride Park.
  8. Gellaw Newco 204 Limited- The controlling company of the company who purchased Pride Park.

Of course, it's all ultimately controlled by Mel Morris.

Over the last two, Rams Investment Limited charge is still listed at Companies House- in addition to this one. Henry Gabay's loan in other words. Maybe this second loan will pay off this one.

Loan to Morris himself but security as mentioned it covers all 8. The last two are not within the group of the first 6- Maguire doesn't see how the loan can count towards FFP.

@redsince1994 3rd party was Michael Dell I think- MSD- he also has made investment in Southampton and Sunderland- and before that, Henry Gabay, Rams Investment Limited- the latter appears on Gellaw Newco 202 Limited and Gellaw Newco 204 Limited.

Valuation? Reports claimed and this bit is uncertain- but reports claimed that it was the same company who carried out the 2007 and 2013 valuations- though this could have been put out by the club also, written reasons may reveal all! Cannot recall their name but it's listed in accounts up to 2017, they're quite big!

As for the loan itself, I think it's all security as I said above- but including the leasehold of Pride Park. I think.

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39 minutes ago, Harry said:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/53751251
 

So. A few weeks ago, Derby received a loan from a 3rd party, which was secured against the stadium. 
 

Given this decision, it seems it was a legitimately priced purchase when Morris bought the stadium. 
 

So, Derby now don’t own the stadium. So the loan, being secured against the stadium, would surely be a loan to Morris himself (as stadium owner) and not to the club. Thus, this loan money can’t be money directly given to the club, but to Morris. Thus would only be able to be used as part of his own cash injections into the club, not as a source of ‘club’ earnings. 
 

Presumably? 

Assuming this is just a way to prove the value of the stadium was legit by opening a line of credit against it. If this ends up in the hands of the club surely there will be repercussions (probably not knowing FFP)

I would be interested to see who the 3rd party is, and who carried out the valuation on their behalf.... and whether they are on Morris' Christmas card list. 

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As for Derby, I hope the EFL find some grounds to appeal this- throw anything and everything they can at it. If other clubs can give evidence, that would be nice too though I don't know how that all works- maybe they can only give evidence when the club itself appeal against an adverse verdict.

There are things that can be done though! Maybe.

  1. Do not let Mel Morris or Derby directors into your ground- all clubs should do this to them and perhaps Sheffield Wednesday- ostracise the ******* as much as you can.
  2. Raise complaints with the EFL on whatever might be an issue- see their recent loan.
  3. Try to raise some kind of vote to force Stephen Pearce off the EFL board at the earliest opportunity.
  4. Leak any adverse or contentious comments at EFL meetings- see Redgate- into the media to ratchet things up.

Oh and if all else fails, then good old on the pitch. Can't beat them- join them. Can't join 'em- kick 'em!

Two footers for Rooney, Clarke, Bielik, Bogle early doors would be nice. ;) Take one for the team, aka the League- by weakening their side in the League. :)

I assume two footers are straight reds- think Wycombe are quite physical aren't they, gwan! Bit of the old kick them off the park would be alright.

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EFL must appeal this to see what is what- I don't know if the amortisation model so much reduces the losses as kicks the can down the road- it still has to be amortised in full.

Surely clubs would have to vote on such a change- the other big loophole of course is the fixed asset one, maybe clubs were awaiting the verdict etc before voting on change or otherwise.

If P&S isn't relaxed this year, they may yet fail- Derby that is- along with multiple others.

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39 minutes ago, redsince1994 said:

Assuming this is just a way to prove the value of the stadium was legit by opening a line of credit against it. If this ends up in the hands of the club surely there will be repercussions (probably not knowing FFP)

I would be interested to see who the 3rd party is, and who carried out the valuation on their behalf.... and whether they are on Morris' Christmas card list. 

As Pops mentions above, the loan is from a company called MSD, and supposedly to the tune of £30m. 
MSD have previously loaned money to Southampton & Sunderland. 
The loan has been charged on Companies House to the football club - but surely they can’t inject money to the football club secured against a stadium that the football club do not own. It’s like you lending me money and saying if I don’t pay you back you’ll take my neighbours house (not mine). 
 

In essence, if Morris doesn’t pay MSD back their £30m if they ask for it, then they’ll own the ground. Even though the club don’t own the ground any more!! 
 

It’s a bloody farce. The fact Derby’s CEO sits on the EFL board is surely a conflict of interest in this matter. 
 

I just can’t see how, within FFP rules, this £30m can form part of any calculations, as it’s not ‘football club’ income - it’s technically a loan to Morris himself (as he bought the stadium). 
 

There’s got to be some sort of investigation into this. 

Edited by Harry
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7 minutes ago, Harry said:

As Pops mentions above, the loan is from a company called MSD, and supposedly to the tune of £30m. 
MSD have previously loaned money to Southampton & Sunderland. 
The loan has been charged on Companies House to the football club - but surely they can’t inject money to the football club secured against a stadium that the football club do not own. It’s like you lending me money and saying if I don’t pay you back you’ll take my neighbours house (not mine). 
 

In essence, if Morris doesn’t pay MSD back their £30m if they ask for it, then they’ll own the ground. Even though the club don’t own the ground any more!! 
 

It’s a bloody farce. The fact Derby’s CEO sits on the EFL board is surely a conflict of interest in this matter. 
 

I just can’t see how, within FFP rules, this £30m can form part of any calculations, as it’s not ‘football club’ income - it’s technically a loan to Morris himself (as he bought the stadium). 
 

There’s got to be some sort of investigation into this. 

Over 8 companies- the charge appears on crucially the company which owns Pride Park and the company that owns that.

It's the ground, the club, the purchasing company- lock, stock and barrel.

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Hi Derby fans reading. ?

Just to clarify, the quotes you are quoting on your forum are me and me alone- largely. I am not necessarily representative in some of my harder views but I do very much dislike your club in a number of respects- because you're grubby. Think a review of Pearce's EFL position is long overdue.

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14 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

EFL must appeal this to see what is what- I don't know if the amortisation model so much reduces the losses as kicks the can down the road- it still has to be amortised in full.

Surely clubs would have to vote on such a change- the other big loophole of course is the fixed asset one, maybe clubs were awaiting the verdict etc before voting on change or otherwise.

If P&S isn't relaxed this year, they may yet fail- Derby that is- along with multiple others.

Swings and roundabouts to an extend.

Take Player A - £10m on a 5 year deal

23 clubs amortise him at a loss of £2m pa, a cost in each year’s accounts.

Derby Dont.  Player A still sits on the books at £10, zero to amortise, zero cost.

That looks unfair, but....

Scenario A: sold

23 clubs sell player A for £10m the following summer.  Each club adds £2m to their transfer profit figure.

Derby sell player A for £10m.  Zero transfer profit.

Scenario B: runs contract down

23 clubs just continue to amortise the £2m in the 5th year.

Derby have to amortise / write off £10m.  That’s a risky strategy.

 

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47 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Now Derby are threatening to sue the EFL.

Get that ***** Pearce off the board! Cannot have someone on the EFL Board from a club suing the EFL over a legitimate Investigation.

I expect that is a case of 'if you don't appeal we agree not to sue'

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2 minutes ago, Lrrr said:

I expect that is a case of 'if you don't appeal we agree not to sue'

Would like to see Rooney and co kicked up in the air- esp. Rooney- Game 1. :whistle:

Regulations make me wonder about legal action tbh. Agreement in Writing to Arbitrate- it's uncharted territory this.

You maybe right though. Makes a lot of sense.

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1 hour ago, WarksRobin said:

There will be 23 clubs watching this eagerly to see whether they can change their accounting approach to reduce their losses. The horse’s head has emerged from the open stable door up the EFL’s arse; can EFL close the door in time?

 

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Just hope now that people get behind mel and the team now, I get mel has not done every thing correct and mistakes have been made but this really feels like a fresh start now.the man has done wonders for this club and continues to show his class and put Derby first.we now have the right manager and team of people you will start to see derbys stock rise.to all the journalists, ex footballs, chairmen, pundits,EFL and many more who have jumped on the bang wagon and tryed to put us down f@#$ you.we are Derby super Derby super rams.

?

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If the EFL appeal, sue them.

If they don’t, let it go. We’ve won - on the inside circles the EFL have come out as incompetent, that’s a big win for Mel as well.

Time to focus on the footy only.

Erm, interesting interpretation of the Arbitration agreement right there!

In some ways yes, and yes the EFL under the old regime very much incompetent. However clubs hate you I reckon- opposing fans have a certain antipathy. Or vice versa.

There is still the question of the following with respect to Derby:

  1. Stephen Pearce- EFL Board, how can he be fit and proper now? I know innocent but all of the many issues.
  2. The loan arrangement.
  3. Keogh- I do hope he will pursue his case against the club to the fullest extent possible.
  4. The nonsense over Lawrence and Bennett being kept on- but Keogh sacked. How they got off so lightly with drink driving and crash is also beyond me, criminally speaking!

Oh they play Luton and Blackburn in Match days 2 and 3- and Barrow in the Cup, Sheffield United in a friendly in a week.

Hope there's no dodgy tackles! :laughcont:

To my Derby audience, I know a few of you have read my posts on and therefore, certain bits are for your benefit. :sub:

Still there are worse motivational techniques a manager might use. Nothing to lose certainly, to help an opposition side 'get into them' so to speak.

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Am half tempted to join the Derby forum to meet my critics head on but probably not worth it.

However, I do hope that the EFL and other clubs keep an eye on Derby and keep pressure on over a variety of issues.

Legal action should lead to repercussions at a membership level. Or investigation into the possibility.

On another note, this thread by fans of a club I CAN respect. Sums up Derby quite nicely. 

http://barnsleyfc.org.uk/threads/derby-fans-and-club-a-disgrace.283815/

One of the first games post drink driving trio etc.

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Would be interested in @Coppello take

Derby innocent in all but notifying the EFL of the change in policy??

I want to now see clubs take matters into their own hands. Maximum pressure using all avenues possible on Derby, by clubs and hopefully via this as a vehicle, the EFL.

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On a Reading note, interesting theory on their forum about Howe standing down as CEO.

Quote

So, random theory time.

Howe, in his capacity as EFL board member knows that the EFL has decided to "freeze" FFP this season given COVID i.e. last season's and this seasons accounts will not have any baring on FFP calculations as they accept that clubs are working with contracts signed under very different financial circumstances and a large number of clubs will miss the target due to decreased income - i.e. less matchday income etc.

Knowing this, he advised the owners. They make the decision that, as they have the money, it is now or never to push for the PL - Howe, whilst not completely disagreeing, he doesn't feel like he can stay in the CEO role whilst the club takes this gamble, due to his EFL board seat (potential conflict of interest) so agrees to step down but remain at the club as Vice-Chairman, so that he (and the club) retain that spot on the board but focus, officially, on non-football club interests.

The owners employ one of their guys as a CEO but he is essentially just a man in a seat - the owners (with support from Howe, one of the reasons he stayed at the club) still run the football business side alongside Bowen - who is widely respected by the owners.

As the club hope to push for promotion, they feel they need a "name" manager to attract players who can make that possible - they have approached and are in discussions with a particular manager and an agreement is reached - Bowen is asked to move back upstairs as the club are impressed with the work he has done to reshape the philosophy of the club and want him to continue that work without the distraction of running the first team. His move will only be announced when the new manager can also be announced.


So yeah, probably all complete bollocks but if there really is a "strategic review" in place then given that Howe hasn't left this would fit. Either way, nowt we can do about it and more important things to worry about.

Long wondered about whether Howe has been leaking info from EFL to club, or perhaps favoured journalists. The odd article made me wonder- like when a local Reading journo a number of weeks, maybe a month ago declared that FFP was suspended in 2020/21! Get him and Pearce off the EFL board tbh. The latter especially.

As for this Derby debacle- was thinking about it and it's brutal. However.

For the benefit of my Derby audience .:sub: Some might say it needs a big club to go pop to get the message home about FFP and the importance. Given you're taking loans here, there and everywhere and somehow wriggled off you could be an ideal candidate! 

Aston Villa could have been the one really in 2018.

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