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The Championship FFP Thread (Merged)


Mr Popodopolous

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21 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Further P&S news.

Reading appear to still be under some kind of restrictions some of their fans on Twitter seem angry and to be blaming the Football League for the missing out on a loan for Roman Riquelme from Atletico. Talented youngster, sure he won't come cheap? Linked with Bournemouth.

It was totally predictable though for anyone who followed their accounts- Kia Joorabchian the super-agent who apparently helps to advise their owners was ranting on Talksport earlier about the current financial regulations. About to listen to it myself- maybe interested @Davefevs @downendcity @Coppello @chinapig @CyderInACan

Should be good!

Isn’t “super agent” a contradiction in terms

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2 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Further P&S news.

Reading appear to still be under some kind of restrictions some of their fans on Twitter seem angry and to be blaming the Football League for the missing out on a loan for Roman Riquelme from Atletico. Talented youngster, sure he won't come cheap? Linked with Bournemouth.

It was totally predictable though for anyone who followed their accounts- Kia Joorabchian the super-agent who apparently helps to advise their owners was ranting on Talksport earlier about the current financial regulations. About to listen to it myself- maybe interested @Davefevs @downendcity @Coppello @chinapig @CyderInACan

Should be good!

You might also be interested @havanatopia and @The Gasbuster I remember a while ago we all queried whether they were within FFP.

Kia not understanding the difference between Jordan saying Governance not Government.

Kia I’m sure is looking for a fast buck.

Let him “sink” £50m into Derby, Forest etc.  I reckon he’d end up with less than £50m of his outlay....although he will have dreamed off a percentage for himself.

 

Not just having a go at him because we all hate agents / 3rd party owners like this....I listened to him several years back, and not every player owned by him makes him £millions, but in Brazil for example, you can acquire player ownership so cheaply, you can play the numbers game.

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Looks like Derby and Reading- segments aka two sets of fans who don't get FFP! This thread below. ?

That Derby fan in particular I've seen, had a few erm robust debates  with him on Twitter over it let's say!

@Hxj forgot to tag you in the original stuff but looks like Reading have some similarly deluded or out of touch fans or at least as a proportion when it comes to the FFP stuff!

 

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At first when they had sold the stadium for £26.5m and that appeared to be it, Reading were on my meh list. £6.5m profit, despite Home Counties land value.

However that's all changed! They sold the stadium again the following year, albeit rent doubled, but sold for £37.5m and leased it back. They possibly sold the old training ground and they sold some other property.

They pocketed £3m in a loan fee for a clearly past his best Aluko- from the owners Chinese club! Could've covered the wages I guess but even so!

They were under a soft embargo in summer 2019- and promptly signed Joao and Puscas! No problem with the signings from a football POV, good players clearly but FFS.

They rejected a bid for Loader in 2019- he leaves on a free. Every little helps.

They rejected a I think £10m bid for Moore in 2018.

This summer they rejected bids for Swift- and may have rejected a bid for Meite.

Some say that they were permitted to sign Ejaria as there was some loan to buy arrangement, legally binding etc? I don't know but surmising!

Because of their decent squad they do have assets to sell- for varying reasons and levels but:

  1. Rafael- Good GK, has played in Serie A, joined on a free- sale=profit.
  2. Moore- See bid. Decent CB.
  3. Morrison- Joined on a free, not a bad Championship CB- sale=profit.
  4. Swift- Joined on free and bids rejected this summer.
  5. Meite- Good direct attacking player, why not make a profit.
  6. Ejaria- Has just joined but bet they could turn a profit.
  7. Joao- Good player- probably once Fee-Book Value=Profit.
  8. Puscas- Sought after by other clubs, Romania international- young, joined from Inter- yeah reckon you could turn a profit.

One or two more as well- Yiadom, okay full back, joined on a free=Profit. Rinomhota- Profit again, from academy.

Zero sympathy whatsoever- I still wonder if Football League were quietly trying to afford them the time to ease themselves back to balance as Howe on the board and it'd be most embarrassing to have to charge them with P&S breaches.

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Birmingham's results are out!

I'm assuming Segment result is the one to look for here- Football Club.

Quote

For the year ended 30 June 2020

Football club 

HK$’000

Segment revenue

External sales 204,395 

Results

Segment results (186,519)

For one that's in HK$, dunno if the exchange rate would be effective the date of release or the date the accounts are to- ie 30th June or 30th September.

This will of course be inclusive of the usual allowable costs, but also the Profit on disposal of players. Will surely also include some Covid allowable costs so I think they fall within their £13m target! Especially as that is now moot with the rolling up of 2 seasons into one and the Bellingham sale- as well as one or two others- that all offset losses.

As I recall, the ones to 2019 showed some revenue in UK but not HK, because it wasn't included in the latter- possibly similarities there. Point is, they seem to be on the right track and unlikely to fall foul again any time soon IMO.

Think it's about 10HK$ to the £ anyway, so nice and easy.

The other interesting aspect perhaps, is here- 3 months extension, easy- whereas in this case, in Hong Kong-Pandemic or no Pandemic, all released on time! Not only that but the segmentation is because the business is more than just a football club- yet guess what- no extension or pushing the deadlines!!

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12 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Birmingham's results are out!

I'm assuming Segment result is the one to look for here- Football Club.

For one that's in HK$, dunno if the exchange rate would be effective the date of release or the date the accounts are to- ie 30th June or 30th September.

This will of course be inclusive of the usual allowable costs, but also the Profit on disposal of players. Will surely also include some Covid allowable costs so I think they fall within their £13m target! Especially as that is now moot with the rolling up of 2 seasons into one and the Bellingham sale- as well as one or two others- that all offset losses.

As I recall, the ones to 2019 showed some revenue in UK but not HK, because it wasn't included in the latter- possibly similarities there. Point is, they seem to be on the right track and unlikely to fall foul again any time soon IMO.

Think it's about 10HK$ to the £ anyway, so nice and easy.

Maguire was suggesting losses of £27m!

2678C517-334D-4251-B70A-372081A5F603.thumb.jpeg.9d433c92d80f33d5d915c8c0254f7e0f.jpeg

Bellingham’s transfer will be in next year’s accounts.  You would’ve thought that 19/20s numbers ought to result in points deduction...shouldn’t it?

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1 minute ago, Davefevs said:

Maguire was suggesting losses of £27m!

2678C517-334D-4251-B70A-372081A5F603.thumb.jpeg.9d433c92d80f33d5d915c8c0254f7e0f.jpeg

Bellingham’s transfer will be in next year’s accounts.  You would’ve thought that 19/20s numbers ought to result in points deduction...shouldn’t it?

Thanks. Maybe I've misread it a bit then.

I'm assuming that the rollup means that the 3 years to 2020 wouldn't be assessed in isolation and those look like the headline figures- maybe the segmented results are the ones to look for, well I've done that anyway.

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1 minute ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Thanks. Maybe I've misread it a bit then.

I'm assuming that the rollup means that the 3 years to 2020 wouldn't be assessed in isolation and those look like the headline figures- maybe the segmented results are the ones to look for, well I've done that anyway.

I thought they were on annual reviews?

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Was reading the Sheffield Wednesday forum in terms of FFP posts etc, some as well as some fans of other clubs sure are a bit deluted

Quote

Complete breakdown in relationship between Derby and the EFL by all accounts

 

EFL heirachy needs clearing out from top to bottom,  jokers 

That's a rather odd take- yes a breakdown but surely it's the Derby rep that needs clearing off the EFL board in that case! ?

The EFL are the Governing body albeit with clubs deciding, Derby are one of many clubs

Can someone explain why the EFL relationship with Derby breaking down should lead to a clear-out of the EFL top brass? ?

Here's another!

Quote

Given the high stakes, clubs will continue to seek loopholes and push boundaries, it’s inevitable. We need a simplification of the rules and an end to artificially leveling the playing field and holding wealthier clubs back.

What we need is a simplification of the rules, a removal of the daft loophole or 2 that exists and correct, real-time monitoring- as in the case of the last one, is supposed to be happening anyway.

Lastly, a fan of a fellow cheating club chips in- we even get a mention in the FFP debate!

Quote

Sorry Nero, but you're talking out of your bumhole. 

 

The idea that Derby pushed for Wednesday to be punished more severely is risible. Do you think if we had any such influence over the EFL that we'd be going through this shitshow?? 

 

Gibson, Lansdown at Bristol, and the yank fool at Barnsley are the prime movers in all of this. Parry is doing their bidding, whatever the Tribunal might have said. 

 

Derby got off because the case against us was ill-conceived, badly compiled and found to be 99% testicles. The remaining 1% is an argument about the use of an amortisation method which actually makes more sense than the straight line method, is used in the PL, and which isn't outlawed by either the EFL rules or accounting standards. It's a petty vendetta, plain and simple. 

 

And the idea that the Mail puts out stories favourable to Derby would have every Derby fan weeing themselves. They've been spreading poo about us for years.

I agree with him that Derby pushing for Sheffield Wednesday to be punished more severely is fairly amusing and likely untrue though!

Anyway fans of your club, your club, Aston Villa and Reading- Birmingham are a greyer area as they seem to have been cutting back in conjunction with a smaller stadium sale than anyone else, have sold no other fixed assets etc- and were punished- fans of these 4, maybe 5 clubs are a part of the reason why the PL bailout talks are hitting issues!! Well done! :clap:

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On 30/09/2020 at 16:24, Mr Popodopolous said:

Thanks. Maybe I've misread it a bit then.

I'm assuming that the rollup means that the 3 years to 2020 wouldn't be assessed in isolation and those look like the headline figures- maybe the segmented results are the ones to look for, well I've done that anyway.

If anyone is interested the accounts are available at https://www1.hkexnews.hk/listedco/listconews/sehk/2020/0930/2020093001616.pdf

The loss for the company and subsidiaries is £26.5 million or thereabouts.  The reported loss for the football club is as per @Mr Popodopolous at £18.5 million.  If I was the EFL  would also be looking at the £8 million of unallocated central costs to see which ones related to football.

As to all reporting to the EFL my understanding is that all the current reporting rules apply as do all the sanctions, so if your are in, or potentially in breach, you can still for example be handed transfer embargos.  The final reckoning and any actual breach of FFP can't happen until the final 2020/21 position is agreed.

 

 

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John Percy reckons the deal is in its advanced stages.

Spawny bastards however- spawny, spawny bastards! I hope the EFL win their appeal and get some ponts docked and there must be ZERO leeway- £39m losses, change rules quick sharp in terms of fixed asset sales, perhaps fair value rules too look at these again- maybe I'm overreacting the Coates family have megabucks yet Stoke seem to be walking the line, there are lots of rich owners at this level yet FFP is enforced to some extent.

Given that there is a charge over their assets from Dell, charges not yet cleared as per Companies House as per Gabay, how does this work then??

A small silver lining could be paying rent on Pride Park e.g. but it's £1.1m per season or so- on an £81.1m transaction FFS!

For comparison sake, and I'm a big critic of the first 3 especially:

Aston Villa- £56.7m, £2.6m per season rent. My problem there is that it does not go beyond 5 years so £10.4m rent back on a £56.7m transaction is somewhat suspect...if they return to the Football League soon, Football League should be looking at that very closely!

Reading- £750k per season on a £26.5m transaction.

This subsequently rose to £1.5m per season on a £37.5m transaction- more like it but still not feeling high enough.

Sheffield Wednesday- Purportedly, £3m per season on a £60m transaction- though we only have EFL Written Reasons to go on.

Birmingham- Theirs actually seemed low if anything, but £1.25m per season on a £22.76m transaction- low in terms of sale price I mean.

Derby though, the highest fee received, the lowest rent payable- ugh!!

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On a side note, it is NICE to see Sheffield Wednesday struggling so.

Coventry's coupon buster, albeit they have now played a game more- Sheffield Wednesday TEN points off safety at this early stage despite P8 Pts8-- I'll say no more in case I jinx but it's good to see. Nottingham Forest on 6 pts, 6 from 4 since Hughton joined- it means despite their survival level start they're as it stands more points off safety than they were after winning first game at Cardiff- then it was -9, now it's for now at least, -10!

They of course have or will be lodging appeal vs their sanction. I don't recall the last time a Football League imposed points penalty was appealed- anyone?? Certainly in modern times- could get tasty because I read that Steve Dale was informed going into 2019/20 that nobody overturned one of MY points sanctions- he didn't name names but can only assume it was someone senior in the Football League? 

Granted it was one of his rambling statements but I get the impression given the obvious bad blood between club (or maybe just Chansiri as such)?and Football League, they won't take kindly to Chansiri pushing this appeal...?

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8 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Derby though, the highest fee received, the lowest rent payable- ugh!!

I don't pretend to either have followed the events closely. or to have an understanding of the accounting but..

What would stop the take over Co. also buying the ground holding Co. at a cut price under some pretence or another. Then incorporating it into the "new" DCFC company, then next year selling the ground again. Unless they impose penalty's, and stick to it, what's the point of the rules in the first place.

 

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On 31/10/2020 at 09:12, 1960maaan said:

I don't pretend to either have followed the events closely. or to have an understanding of the accounting but..

What would stop the take over Co. also buying the ground holding Co. at a cut price under some pretence or another. Then incorporating it into the "new" DCFC company, then next year selling the ground again. Unless they impose penalty's, and stick to it, what's the point of the rules in the first place.

 

Bit topical, now the League Arbitration Panel have basically halved the penalty for Sheffield Wednesday- yet these Independent panel are unpredictable, the Football League are due to appeal Derby's amortisation sometime this Autumn, after Derby were found innocent of each! Maybe failings in the case by the Football League played a role?

As it stands, nothing perhaps- rule change would be needed for a start, but we'd hope the Football League would be on the case as of the first taking charges out against the ground occurred- I'd quite like them to block the takeover for a start if at all possible.

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7 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Bit topical, now the League Arbitration Panel have basically halved the penalty for Sheffield Wednesday- yet these Independent panel are unpredictable, the Football League are due to appeal Derby's amortisation sometime this Autumn, after Derby were found innocent of each! Maybe failings in the case by the Football League played a role?

As it stands, nothing perhaps- rule change would be needed for a start, but we'd hope the Football League would be on the case as of the first taking charges out against the ground occurred- I'd quite like them to block the takeover for a start if at all possible.

Why do you want the EFL to block the takeover ? 

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9 hours ago, AnAstonVillafan said:

Why do you want the EFL to block the takeover ? 

I'd like to say- the moral high ground, Sportswashing by Despots bad- but mainly it's because I wish ill on that club! ?  There's a few clubs that aren't even traditional local rivals of us that I have a serious dislike of these days...

I will finally take a look at the charges over the assets and bits of the club- @Davefevs @myol'man may also find this interesting...seems odd that you'd buy a club whereby charges are over all the main assets from Dell, Gabay- at least as per CH. @Hxj might also- seems the EFL have given the green light anyway, there's no real reason AFAIK to stop it.

FFP equity limits, EFL need to scrutinise like a hawk any transactions between UAE and Derby too. I don't care about Covid, I don't even care about Derby's wellbeing as a club. The more hardship the better in fact.

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So much to wade through actually, maybe later or tomorrow.

Starting point:

Company                                                         Charge Created Charge Delivered     Who the Lender is            

The Derby County Football Club                   6th August 2020   11th August 2020    Msd UK Holdings Limited (As Lender)

The Derby County Football Club                   8th October 2020   14th October 2020  Msd UK Holdings Limited (As Lender)

Club DCFC                                                      6th August 2020   11th August 2020    Msd UK Holdings Limited (As Lender)

Stadia DCFC                                                   6th August 2020   11th August 2020    Msd UK Holdings Limited (As Lender)

The Derby County FC Academy Limited      6th August 2020   11th August 2020    Msd UK Holdings Limited (As Lender)

Sevco 5112 Limited                                        6th August 2020   11th August 2020    Msd UK Holdings Limited (As Lender)

Gellaw Newco 203 Limited                           6th August 2020   11th August 2020    Msd UK Holdings Limited (As Lender)

Gellaw Newco 202 Limited                        6th November 2019   13th November 2019  Rams Investment Limited- Gabay?

Gellaw Newco 202 Limited                           6th August 2020   11th August 2020    Msd UK Holdings Limited (As Lender)

Gellaw Newco 204 Limited                        6th November 2019   13th November 2019  Rams Investment Limited- Gabay?

Gellaw Newco 204 Limited                           6th August 2020   11th August 2020    Msd UK Holdings Limited (As Lender)

These are all charges listed at CH as outstanding or similar.

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Will be interesting to see where and how Pride Park features in the takeover.

I can’t imagine that the incoming buyers will want a football club without it’s ground. Accordingly, and as DCFC no longer own Pride Park, I can only presume that there will have to be a separate transaction for the purchase of Pride Park from Morris’s “other” company. If so it will be interesting to see what price is paid, as I am pretty certain the new owners will require their own (truly) independent valuation in order to determine a fair market price.

As this could cause serious egg  on the faces of Morris and the EFL as regards the ffp judgement, what’s the betting that when the figures are agreed the price paid for the stadium will be exactly that which was used when DCFC “sold" PP for ffp purposes, and that the price of the football club will be “adjusted to account for any shortfall in the buyers valuation of the ground? 

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20 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

I'd like to say- the moral high ground, Sportswashing by Despots bad- but mainly it's because I wish ill on that club! ?  There's a few clubs that aren't even traditional local rivals of us that I have a serious dislike of these days...

I will finally take a look at the charges over the assets and bits of the club- @Davefevs @myol'man may also find this interesting...seems odd that you'd buy a club whereby charges are over all the main assets from Dell, Gabay- at least as per CH. @Hxj might also- seems the EFL have given the green light anyway, there's no real reason AFAIK to stop it.

FFP equity limits, EFL need to scrutinise like a hawk any transactions between UAE and Derby too. I don't care about Covid, I don't even care about Derby's wellbeing as a club. The more hardship the better in fact.

At least you're honest. 

There is no guarantee that new foreign owners, automatically mean that the club fortunes instantly improve.

My club, Villa had a Chinese owner once. As do our rivals Birmingham. Neither of us have good things to say about them.

Wolves on the other hand may take a different view.

Man City had a Thai owner. They hated him. Leicester City have Thai owners. The fans sing his name.

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On 06/11/2020 at 15:35, AnAstonVillafan said:

At least you're honest. 

There is no guarantee that new foreign owners, automatically mean that the club fortunes instantly improve.

My club, Villa had a Chinese owner once. As do our rivals Birmingham. Neither of us have good things to say about them.

Wolves on the other hand may take a different view.

Man City had a Thai owner. They hated him. Leicester City have Thai owners. The fans sing his name.

Don't get me wrong, I'm no great fan of Sportswashing either- Man City- UAE, PSG- Qatar- nearly Newcastle with the Saudis, could argue some others too.

You're right. Even Man City didn't kick on that quickly- may have been better in first few years with Sven over Hughes I reckon for that phase of development but that's football talk, has no place on a finance thread. ;) 

Yeah you're right big variety. Birmingham and Aston Villa neither were ideal let's say...West Brom's seems so so, neither disastrous or anything amazing, Fosun at Wolves however seem very smart, very strategic.

Agreed- possibly only big positive he did there was selling, having to sell to to UAE!

It's just a thought of frustration at Derby wriggling out of issues with questionable sponsorships- like Man City, when they clearly have FFP issues.

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23 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Don't get me wrong, I'm no great fan of Sportswashing either- Man City- UAE, PSG- Qatar- nearly Newcastle with the Saudis, could argue some others too.

You're right. Even Man City didn't kick on that quickly- may have been better in first few years with Sven over Hughes I reckon for that phase of development but that's football talk, has no place on a finance thread. ;) 

Yeah you're right big variety. Birmingham and Aston Villa neither were ideal let's say...West Brom's seems so so, neither disastrous or anything amazing, Fosun at Wolves however seem very smart, very strategic.

Agreed- possibly only big positive he did there was selling, having to sell to to UAE!

It's just a thought of frustration at Derby wriggling out of issues with questionable sponsorships- like Man City, when they clearly have FFP issues.

I don't believe Derby will wriggle out of any issues. They are a mess at the moment and it will take time to sort. Morris was a geniune fan of the club. Like Lansdown and Gibson are of their clubs.

West Brom used to be one of the best run clubs in the country. Ruled by Jeremy Peace, who was born in the area, a fan and ruled with a rod of iron. He always got maximum value in every deal. The current Chinese owner seeks to lead in the same way. It was managerial problems which caused their relegation.

When Doug Eliis was Villa's major shareholder the club was debt free, and prudent. The fans hated this. We always wanted more and more money spent on new players. But we never apprieciated what we had with him. Its shame that it always seems to be foreign billonaires nessessary to push a club forward in these times.

 I used to deliver newspapers to Ellis's house as a teenager. 25 minutes drive from the stadium.

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12 minutes ago, AnAstonVillafan said:

I don't believe Derby will wriggle out of any issues. They are a mess at the moment and it will take time to sort. Morris was a geniune fan of the club. Like Lansdown and Gibson are of their clubs.

West Brom used to be one of the best run clubs in the country. Ruled by Jeremy Peace, who was born in the area, a fan and ruled with a rod of iron. He always got maximum value in every deal. The current Chinese owner seeks to lead in the same way. It was managerial problems which caused their relegation.

When Doug Eliis was Villa's major shareholder the club was debt free, and prudent. The fans hated this. We always wanted more and more money spent on new players. But we never apprieciated what we had with him. Its shame that it always seems to be foreign billonaires nessessary to push a club forward in these times.

 I used to deliver newspapers to Ellis's house as a teenager. 25 minutes drive from the stadium.

As Joni Mitchell wrote “ you don’t know what you’ve got ‘till it’s gone!” 

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