The Championship FFP Thread (Merged)

[Mr Popodopolous]

Looking down the League, for a Club with apparent financial issues until lately and who got found guilty of FFP and relegated- I know the rules are different below but Sheffield Wednesday in these Covid times haven't half signed some players for the level- lost a lot too of course. Still if they have somehow been keeping up with all their HMRC obligations etc then fair enough in a way but I struggle to see how given Chansiri pleading poverty not too long ago.

Remember the restated Stadium Sale disappears after this season, and it's unclear how the EFL would assess a Club who go down, would it be up to the final Championship season or would it be until that final Championship season has disappeared. It leaves all sorts of messes for Clubs and the EFL possible, especially if they yoyo if not clearly defined- and clearly defined it is not!

I know P&S doesn't count in League One but there has to be arrangements surely for Clubs who bounce between the two divisions- both to help but also to assess.

Clear as mud!

Quote

5 Clubs Ceasing to be Members of the Championship

5.1 If a Club is promoted or relegated out of the Championship Division that Club shall, notwithstanding promotion or relegation, remain bound by these as if it were still a Championship Club, until such time as it has complied with all of its obligations relating to its last Season as a Championship Club.

ie up to 2019/20/2020/21 combined average or once that has gone ie 2019/20/2020/21 combined average, 2021/22 and 2022/23- so disappearing in Summer 2023 basically after that season. Does that mean latter assessment of the final season or as above, the final season running to X and only then has it been exhausted?

• Peacock Farrell- Loan
• Wing- Loan

Linked with Byers from Swansea on loan as well. Kamberi from a Swiss top division club (St Gallen) might be on decent wages, young player from QPR maybe not so much? Shodipo- Adenrian was at Wycombe first half of last season, don't know much about but they signed on a free.

Dunno how much Jaden Brown would be on at Huddersfield, don't know much about him but resigned Hunt on a free too.

Forgot to add, still have players such as Iorfa, Luongo, Robbored's favourite Bannan, then Windass and Paterson too. Dunkley if fit is also a competent CB at this level I expect.

On less of a football and more of an Accounting note, still nothing at CH for Sheffield 2 Limited, Sheffield 3 Limited and Sheffield 5 Limited yet- wonder why.

Edited August 1, 2021 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

Had a quick look at the Land Registry earlier...Stoke's one is confusing.

The date of most recent news or similar, it seems to be stuck on 2nd of June 2021...but their Accounting Period ran until 31st May 2021 IIRC- cannot be backdated but the EFL ban/adjustment out of Profits from Stadium Sale and leasebacks for FFP is effective 1st July 2021 (Kieran Maguire on Twitter a little while ago).

There's no indication yet that it has changed hands but being stuck on 2nd June 2021 is odd.

Seems as if their lease was a 25 year one too, unsure how easily changeable that is. Think it's that Stoke City Property own(ed?) it and the Football Club leased.

[Mr Popodopolous]

Some Derby fans are suggesting that the Ground should be returned to Club Ownership as part of any takeover.

I really do think the EFL would have a problem with this, being 3-4 years into a 25 year lease IIRC, from an FFP perspective to return to Club Ownership makes the whole transaction look suspect IMO. UNLESS part of some deal or similar, if the EFL don't extract a heavy price then they should not play ball with this I believe.

What do you think @Hxj certainly if they're still fighting their corner as they appear to be?

I know we've discussed this before and you suggested they would be well advised to try to make a deal but I don't see the EFL doing them any favours and nor should they.

Derby it appears, well I believe it to be the case anyway, would prefer a policy of both having their cake and eating it.

If we think about it:

Quote

1. Arguing that if any adjustment to Amortisation puts them over for Past Periods then it would be immoral to deduct points.
2. Despite the fact that Restated Accounts in that manner worsen the past but improve the more recent past, likely the present and maybe the future.

That represents a cake and eat it- knowing that adjusting the Amortisation will benefit them later if reverting to Straight Line but swerving punishment for any past overspend.

Quote

1. Seemingly hinting that they will Restate but with yet another new Amortisation method.

Anything to hide- or does Mel think that the Rules don't apply?

Quote

Wanting Transfers when so many matters still outstanding?

Ask Bolton and Wigan their EFL Restrictions- no Accounts, how can the EFL judge their position past, present and going into 2021/22 and perhaps beyond.

Quote

1. Selling for £81.1m in 2018, agreed with EFL.
2. Now arguing that there is an Additional Profit or a potential one at least.

There are significant barriers to the Additional Profit being included for FFP purposes I believe, but the cheek of them, the cheek of Mel! Get ******.

Quote

1. A big transaction requires a big rent for Fair/Market Value FFP purposes.
2. Even their friendly valuer stated that Rent was about £4.16m per season IIRC, for both the DRC and the Profits method- fair enough.

Why then are they paying £1.1m per year on an £81.1m Transaction- bit of a peppercorn Rent tbh, in the circs. Other Clubs who did this are paying between 4-5.5% per year- Reading at £1.5m on a £37.5m transaction is the lowest.

Seem to recall something about day's usage but then there being no cap on day's usage for Footballing Purposes. EFL need to go back and challenge this arguably.

One poster on their forum even asked one of the q's at Mel Morris's Q&A to be about whether they are paying Rent- well maybe cancels out from a Cash angle but they bloody well should be and probably a few million more. 

Quote

Fans would like the Ground to be returned to Club Ownership as part of any Takeover.

I'm sure they would like it but you cannot have it all ways.

EFL won't and must not accept without a heavy price/concession. To return it 4 years into a 25 year lease, even if that lease is £3m per year less than it should be, makes a mockery of the whole transaction- EFL must resist.

Edited August 3, 2021 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

I also don't get why Reading are escaping as it stands- yes they're embargoed but reportedly just turned down a 7 figure bid for Josh Laurent.

Why there are not yet, have there not yet been any charges- surely they've exceeded the £39m losses to 2021- what are the EFL waiting for- and it's not just to 2021, how are they going to comply to 2022 as well ie going into this season?

Although the EFL Embargo Reporting Service doesn't explicitly say this, which makes me wonder if they're doing a Derby and refusing to submit Accounts- hence the Embargo to stop them making any moves.

Quote

"If you don't know how much we've lost, we can't be charged with making excess losses".

Kinda thing.

If they have breached with Excess Losses ie over the £39m to 2021, and the EFL have the numbers, I'd like to see the following:

• Let them top up to the 23 under EFL terms and conditions
• Charge them with failing P&S- Birmingham type scenario in short.
• Set them targets/impose a Business Plan for 2021/22- that they must meet by March or they face in-season charges/punishments.

If they're playing silly buggers with Accounts for 2020/21, the Future Financial Info for this and perhaps next season, and in particular the submission of these, then misconduct also seems a fair avenue to pursue in due course.

Edited August 3, 2021 by Mr Popodopolous

[Davefevs]

23 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

I also don't get why Reading are escaping as it stands- yes they're embargoed but reportedly just turned down a 7 figure bid for Josh Laurent.

Why there are not yet, have there not yet been any charges- surely they've exceeded the £39m losses to 2021- what are the EFL waiting for- and it's not just to 2021, how are they going to comply to 2022 as well ie going into this season?

Although the EFL Embargo Reporting Service doesn't explicitly say this, which makes me wonder if they're doing a Derby and refusing to submit Accounts- hence the Embargo to stop them making any moves.

Kinda thing.

If they have breached with Excess Losses ie over the £39m to 2021, and the EFL have the numbers, I'd like to see the following:

• Let them top up to the 23 under EFL terms and conditions
• Charge them with failing P&S- Birmingham type scenario in short.
• Set them targets/impose a Business Plan for 2021/22- that they must meet by March or they face in-season charges/punishments.

If they're playing silly buggers with Accounts for 2020/21, the Future Financial Info for this and perhaps next season, and in particular the submission of these, then misconduct also seems a fair avenue to pursue in due course.

Suspect they are playing silly buggers with their accounts, either miles off in their 20/21 projections or 21/22 or both.

Fans need to understand it’s not just the formal accounts that get used but the interim projected returns they submit, which will be tracked.

You can’t just say we are gonna make a profit in 20/21 and then ignore til the the actual accounts confirm a huge difference.  Fans are naive if they think this.

[Mr Popodopolous]

34 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Suspect they are playing silly buggers with their accounts, either miles off in their 20/21 projections or 21/22 or both.

Fans need to understand it’s not just the formal accounts that get used but the interim projected returns they submit, which will be tracked.

You can’t just say we are gonna make a profit in 20/21 and then ignore til the the actual accounts confirm a huge difference.  Fans are naive if they think this.

In terms of submission of them? I'd hope misconduct charges are in the post at some point too then- same for Derby about a lack of up to date financial info.

Agreed, the current and forward Projections are checked against both at the time and beyond- well maybe not properly under Harvey...but now certainly, post Bury, post Parry and Birch, post Macclesfield, post Covid.

I'd be amazed if they don't exceed £39m in the 3 years to 2021...and then based on Birmingham if they do exceed, there is a £13m target, chances are the 2018/19 and combined average of 2019/20 and 2020/21 exceed £26m and the target to hit in 2021/22 is £13m + allowables- and maybe again in 2022/23.

I have to wonder still about Aston Villa- not just the Grealish and loss limit but but also the fact that they stated that the Ground would be sold, and the receivable in 2018/19 was listed as a "Current Asset"- Current Asset tends to mean 12 months or less, maybe there is some obscure loophole and this is an exception to the rule, but in 2019/20 Accounts, it still showed as unpaid and unreceived- still outstanding at both ends, in the 2020 Accounts for Club and Stadium company.

As for Derby- yes no FFP post would be complete by me without referring to them, it's funny how decent numbers of their fans blame the EFL but don't join the dots as to why they're in the mess they are, and as for calling for a Regulator, well a Regulator ie a genuine independent one wouldn't have waved through Pride Park, unique Amortisation methods etc- they'd have likely got clobbered or massively hamstrung albeit perhaps more quickly and it'd have been dealt with at the time or soon after.

Edited August 3, 2021 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

Taking this with a significant pinch of salt, not least given the number of players out etc but it depends what it means by balance books- 'real' finances, FFP or maybe Cash Losses?

Pereira and Johnstone likely to be off for footballing reasons ie Clubs here or overseas might be keen, but unsure WBA exceeding the Allowable losses- but then £55.5m their target based on the rollup and move between the two divisions.

Unsure it's referring to FFP anyway but...

My thinking here however, is that if Fulham are just about okay for FFP, then West Brom certainly would be- though the loss limit does differ- £72m and £55.5m respectively.

Because, who have Fulham sold exactly? Johansen to QPR, that's about it IIRC? Into an already strong squad has come Wilson, Gazzaniga and linked with some others- Robinson, Reed and Mitrovic all linked with moves away but nothing...

Edited August 3, 2021 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

Fulham

I do have to wonder about their compliance or otherwise- in theory £72m with the rollup, plus allowables plus Covid exclusions should be fine for this season, albeit not by much...

https://cottageanalytica.com/2021/07/25/fulham-and-financial-fair-play/

https://cottageanalytica.com/2021/08/01/ffp-limits-better/

Swiss Ramble's estimate for 2019/20 was a bit higher btw, they lost £45.2m but £7m in the usual Allowables, he reckoned £15m in Promotion Bonuses which are excluded of course and maybe £2m to Covid? Can't recall fully...this estimate has £20m Promotion Bonuses and £4m to Covid.

The Author's tweet in this thread reckons a £10-20m cost saving or similar- Profit on Transfer most likely- needed in 2021/22. Sold nobody of note yet...

Stadium loophole now shut of course....should've added Training Grounds and perhaps Profit on disposal of Fixed Asset profits verbatim.

Though I can't see at all how they lose so much last season in the PL once Covid Costs factored in.

Edited August 4, 2021 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

Good to see stepped up monitoring on the way at last- Reading.

"Can't afford to give Laurent a new deal"- ouch. They know what they need to do/needed to have done. 

There was a deadline of 30th June 2021 in their case, Accounts wise- they needed to sell or show proof that there was an agreement to sell by that date, to sell players in order to fill the FFP hole- they did not, even if Olise had been then £8m wouldn't have resolved the issue in itself.

Little more on Fulham, couldn't add it to the last post.

SwissRamble calculations...their upper limit remains £72m as it was last season, all depends what they lost in the PL as that added to Championship and halved. One thing for sure, had they stayed down in 2019/20, trouble might have arisen and if they don't go straight back up this time likewise.

Edited August 4, 2021 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

Would you look at that @chinapig @Hxj @downendcity @Davefevs

Thought Mel had them on strings, you know. 

Still under Embargo it would appear, or with very tight restrictions at the very least.

Pretty interesting Tweet as well...some kinda plea-bargain I wonder- I'd be looking at this line of enquiry were I the EFL.

I'd also be offering Reading a deal whereby they can sign players under EFL terms and conditions, in exchange for an immediate deduction and financial targets for the coming season.

Edited August 4, 2021 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

This Tweet aged well- I saw this poster complaining about a witch-hunt of late...

As did this content we've seen online often in recent years!

 

[CyderInACan]

Just gets better and better at Derby 

 

 

[Mr Popodopolous]

The article for nice reading...assuming it means for new signings.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/sport/football/15787710/derby-eight-players-free-transfers-crisis-rooney-morrison/

Nixon above, oh it gets better.

Some Derby fans seem not that worried though, or doubting his credibility a bit Tweet wise.

Derby should propose a points deduction as I've said before or the EFL shouldn't give ground- 12-15 points would be quite fair.

Then and only then should the EFL give ground and allow signings up to the FFP limit or the FFP limit if reset like Birmingham.

This Tweet is another I saw elsewhere- aged well.

https://twitter.com/Kyledcfc18/status/1026191351296262144

Edited August 5, 2021 by Mr Popodopolous

[chinapig]

14 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Would you look at that @chinapig @Hxj @downendcity @Davefevs

Thought Mel had them on strings, you know. 

Still under Embargo it would appear, or with very tight restrictions at the very least.

Pretty interesting Tweet as well...some kinda plea-bargain I wonder- I'd be looking at this line of enquiry were I the EFL.

I'd also be offering Reading a deal whereby they can sign players under EFL terms and conditions, in exchange for an immediate deduction and financial targets for the coming season.

So punishing a club for multiple breaches of regulations is unjust because the fans are innocent? Bit like saying somebody found guilty of fraud should face no punishment in the courts because their family did nothing wrong.

Personally if fans make no objection when their club is managed recklessly I reckon they are partly complicit.

In any event Derby fans need to make up their minds. Are they a massive club that deserve to be in the PL by right or are they a little provincial club being bullied by the big boys?

[Mr Popodopolous]

26 minutes ago, chinapig said:

So punishing a club for multiple breaches of regulations is unjust because the fans are innocent? Bit like saying somebody found guilty of fraud should face no punishment in the courts because their family did nothing wrong.

Personally if fans make no objection when their club is managed recklessly I reckon they are partly complicit.

In any event Derby fans need to make up their minds. Are they a massive club that deserve to be in the PL by right or are they a little provincial club being bullied by the big boys?

I won't tar all with the same brush but fully agree with the point- Bolton, Bury, Macclesfield, Wigan fans to name 3, Luton- even Leeds though they haven't been the most sympathetic of clubs in the past- Birmingham, Sheffield Wednesday- the list goes on.

Yes, agreed. There will have been those querying it financially, but surely they would have been a minority.

Haha yes, it's good to see them and Mel taken down a peg- EFL have them where they want them to some extent, need to keep up the pressure. I do believe that a lot of their fans or a proportion anyway, let alone Mel think the rules don't apply to them, or similar- their rationale is hard to fathom here, cake and eat it would be a very popular policy among a decent number of Derby fans and their hierarchy.

Edited August 5, 2021 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

Some quite bullish comments by Reading in their Statement.

Quote

The club remain extremely disappointed that existing English Football League regulations allow confidential financial information as well as the embargo status of clubs and the relevant transfer restrictions to become widely available in the public domain. When this confidential information becomes public, it naturally leads to inaccurate rumour and can subsequently weaken the club’s position within an already uncertain and unstable market – whether that be selling, signing or loaning players to or from the club or indeed offering contract extensions or renewals to first team players or those emerging from academies.

1. like what- accounts?? Statutory Requirements at CH? Unless he means the £8.5k per week limit that Nixon has stated before but I don't think it is allowed, more of a leak.
2. Clubs voted on it, fair play.
3. It tends to leak out anyway doesn't it.  Reading FC don't like transparency it would seem- not good for the fans and tbh fan pressure might have brought a bit of clarity here so some credit to them.

Quote

However, it is important to understand that we are making progress. We can confirm that we remain in positive, constructive dialogue with the EFL and, while we appreciate the complexities surrounding the club’s present circumstances, we are also confident that we will be able to significantly strengthen our first team squad in the very near future, in advance of the closure of this summer’s transfer window at the end of August.

Nah. How?? The club already have recorded losses in 2017/18 to 2019/20, of- and yes I'm not factoring in FFP allowances just yet but inclusive of Profit on Stadium Sales, old Training Ground, land around the Stadium and Aluko £3m loan fee, £76m! This is me taking the most generous plausible interpretation- 2017/18=Club, 2018/19=Consolidated and 2019/20-=Consolidated- couldn't switch between the two year on year, though even that would 'only' mean £70-71m losses.

What sort of leeway do their hierarchy think EFL are giving them here?

Edited August 9, 2021 by Mr Popodopolous

[Davefevs]

10 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Some quite bullish comments by Reading in their Statement.

So Reading want it all kept secret….how is that fair to anyone buying Reading players, or selling to Reading?  Cake and eat it imho.

[Mr Popodopolous]

Just now, Davefevs said:

So Reading want it all kept secret….how is that fair to anyone buying Reading players, or selling to Reading?  Cake and eat it imho.

Sounds that way- though under Embargo they wouldn't be able to buy anyone anyway but yeah certainly Cake and eat it- wonder which way Derby voted on it, think we can guess?

[Mr Popodopolous]

Strange, Reading appear to have signed a player- albeit a loanee from Watford, a young one- who knows what wages despite no EFL public statement/clarity.

I do recall Nixon said it was £8,500 per week cap on wages but have they complied with FFP or what?

https://www.efl.com/-more/governance/embargoes/

As we can see they have breached P&S/FFP so what gives. Should charges not follow, if not then why not.

[Mr Popodopolous]

Pre tax (but also pre exclusion) Losses depending on interpretation somewhere between £70-90m 2017/18 to 2019/20.

I'm sure Birmingham to 2018 had an overspend of about £9-10m after allowances etc. Reading's will highly likely be worse.

They had the 9 points and a Business Plan, yes they could sign players under EFL constraints but if all Reading got was 2-3 months of Embargo and EFL restraints and nothing else, that's nowhere near enough.

Selling Olise for £8m good but not enough.

PS, these huge losses are inclusive of:

2017/18

Sale of Madjeski Stadium to Renhe, £6m or so Profit.

2018/19

Renhe sold Madjeski to Chinese Company for IIRC £36.5m. Old Training Ground and land around the Stadium also sold. Total Profit on Disposal around £29m.

Plus small matter of Aluko £3m loan fee to owners Chinese club.

Without that, the consolidated losses were £40m in 2018/19. Plus the Revenue itself got inflated by the aforementioned £3m Aluko loan.

2019/20

No odd transactions laid bare the reality. Think Club losses were £40m and Consolidated £45m. That's in 2019/20 alone.

Didn't help themselves in 2019/20 by adding Joao, Puscas, Rafael plus a loan for Boye from Serie A once soft embargo lifted...

...Nor would turning down a bid for Moore in 2018, Loader 2019, Swift 2020 and maybe Meite too have helped.

Selling Olise and some high earners leaving is fine but it's a large hole!!

[Mr Popodopolous]

A club who are or appear to have changed their ways a bit on FFP are Bournemouth, post relegation.

Remember how they sailed up under the old Regs and fought the charges- eventual settlement, £5m fine or some such under the old one year Rules- 2018, while they were still in the PL.

Well they seem to have a different story to tell this time around- all but a few of their players had relegation wage cut clauses but that much was obvious. My guess would be Ake, King and Wilson and maybe Begovic too. Their 2019/20 Accounts post balance sheet events bit suggested a £50m Profit on disposal in terms of Player Registrations in 2020/21.

Though I may have to row back a bit given Cahill has joined on a free! However outs vs ins in 2020/21...

Sold- Summer 2020

• Ramsdale
• Ake
• Wilson

Plus Arter, probably not for much, to Nottingham Forest.

Fraser didn't sign a new contract but would have by time of departure surely have been a decent earner.

Released- Summer 2020, notable

• Boruc
• Francis
• Daniels
• Smith
• Surman
• Ibe
• Defoe

Jan Departures- again notable

• Simpson
• Gosling
• King

All would have got a profit either due to Academy Product, final year of contract or free agent...off the wage bill too.

In came:

Summer 2020

• Riquelme
• Carter-Vickers

Season long loans- no not that Riquelme but a young guy from Atletico.

Jan 2021

• Wilshere free, 6 month deal.
• Pearson- Preston
• Long- 6 month loan.

Summer 2021

In

• Nyland- Free
• Cahill- Free
• Davis- Loan (Leeds young LB)
• Marcondes- Free

All but one of these are just one year deals. Possibility of a young Man City guy called Morgan Rogers on loan too.

Out

• Begovic
• Rico
• Danjuma
• Surridge

Profits or good wage savings on disposal there.

Obviously Carter-Vickers, Riquelme, Wilshere and Long haven't returned...if they get a few injuries yes the squad is strong but a few injuries and it could get quite thin quite quickly.

Due to Covid rollup etc, their Upper Loss limit is £72m to 2021/22 so can't see any notable issues cropping up this season.

One that interests me though, it is Fulham. I'm wondering how they are in compliance given no notable departures to date this summer. Bettinelli, McDonald released, Johansen sold but surely nothing massive there.

Edited August 19, 2021 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

Sheffield 2 Limited, Sheffield 5 Limited have now joined them in the Striking Off Order club.

Sheffield 2 Limited is the top co for Sheffield Wednesday, Sheffield 5 Limited is the controlling party of Sheffield 3 Limited- which of course is the company who purchased Hillsborough.

Secured debt against Hillsborough atm...how interesting, though it only shows up on Sheffield 3 Limited as of now.

None of these 3 Sheffield companies have released their Accounts yet.

[Mr Popodopolous]

Hmm, Sheffield 2 Limited- Compulsory strike-off action has been discontinued.

Probably a few interested parties there but then again, maybe Chansiri just forgot to submit the Accounts or is behind on them again, who knows.

It did though prompt me to (re)visit the valuation of Hillsborough- either £60m valuation or £38m Profit- you're having a laugh. Maybe one or maybe both are wrong but it seems toppy to me.

Between 1990 and 2014, and I chose these dates as it incorporated a) The transition to all-seater Grounds and b) Work on it for Euro 96 which would enhance valuation, the valuation was in a range of mid teens to mid 20's, the uppermost point coming in 2001 when hitting £26.2m. Think the 1990 one was £15m as per their Accounts but won't go into all that now.

Some guesstimates required but 2014 showed the following- 2014 the last time as I say that it was Independently valued as such:

Freehold buildings were revalued using the DRC approach every 5 years with the interim valuation every 3.

Quote

2014 Valuation

£22.25m PLUS land revalued at £1.5m.

Comparable historical cost for said land and buildings included at valuation:

£12.016m

That's from the starting point before Depreciation etc.

2015 was the final period before the Cost method kicked in- ie 1st June 2014 to end of May 2015, aka 2014/15 season.

Cost or Valuation as of 1st June 2014

£23.75m- and this includes the LAND and Stadium.

There were additions as well as Depreciation. Net Book Value came to £23,438,000 as of end of May 2015.

At comparable historical cost it was £11,940,000.

Always a big question as to what the hell adds £35-36m in a few short years?? They stopped showing Comparable Historical Cost in 2016 Accounts but Depreciation seems to be about 2%.

Quote

2016 position

To attempt to extrapolate from the comparable historical cost using a similar methodology it's:

Starting point:

£16,538,000

Additions- £920,000

Depreciation to 2015- £4,598,000

Let's say 2016 Depreciation=£349,160 (2%)

£12,510,840=Comparable Historical Cost maybe.

Quote

2017 position

Starting point:

£17,458,000

Additions- £41,000

Depreciation to 2016- £4,947,160

Let's say 2017 Depreciation= £349,980 (2%).

£12,201,860=Comparable Historical Cost maybe.

2018 was of course the year of sale.

Just doesn't seem right, such a large swing in value given Hillsborough last had MAJOR work done on it in the mid 1990's and isn't exactly such a modern ground.

[Mr Popodopolous]

Someone I know actually did a little bit of work on it, out of general interest a while back.

£60m eh...hmmmm.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Rd5vzSWExGMbkF---N6K24xfPYPFRKtiVBwjeRdX1vk/edit#gid=0

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Rd5vzSWExGMbkF---N6K24xfPYPFRKtiVBwjeRdX1vk/edit#gid=730047349

1st one is 1990-1996 under SWFC PLC, then latterly 1997-2015 under Sheffield Wednesday FC the club.

Further backing up my £22.25m for Ground and £1.5m for the Land bit as recently as 2014, an Independent Valuation using Depreciated Replacement Cost method...sells for £60m though!?

Edited August 25, 2021 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

Good news! @Hxj @Davefevs @chinapig @downendcity

Seems that the EFL have a) Tightened/shut the big glaring, gaping loophole- and I assumed it was just for Stadium Profits but it's actually for all Tangible Fixed Assets and b) It seems that they have clarified, well I was forecasting it in Spring 2021 but they've finally put it in writing, how P&S Assessed including the rollup. It's the only sensible way but you never know.

Boom- 1.1.2 b)!

Aston Villa, Derby, Reading, Sheffield Wednesday- and for Reading add Stadium sell on, old Training Ground and land around the Stadium, these clubs would have really been up shit street if not for this loophole! Aston Villa especially given they actually went up off the back of complying and being able to spend that way.

I wonder if Derby's £30m attempted wangle could fall foul of this...some of their fans I recall in the past separate to this, were talking selling the Training Ground for FFP Profit- loophole closed! Stoke were linked with a sale and leaseback in May, touch and go- Land Registry shows no update since June 2nd 2021 for Bet 365 Stadium but their Accounting Reference Period runs June 1st-May 31st in a 12-month period. We all know it cannot be backdated either, only if they've extended their Accounting Reference Period to the end of June 2021 might it be acceptable- and then it has to be Fair Value etc.

Birmingham too of course, forgot about them but unlike the others they seem to have truly been on the road to reform post 2018/2019. Think St Andrews sold for £22.76m and a long term lease of £1.25m per season. Very different to the big 3 and their valuations- Derby's lease payments also seem too low.

Then we have clarity on how the FFP rollups apply with Covid- as is tbh the common sense approach but anyway...

I also remember speculation that the club in the East Midlands might look to return Ground to Club ownership and sale and leaseback with new ownership...well that's all done now, can't be included for P&S.

Sadly, for all the good work plus added in the Embargo Reporting Service, there is still a key area of Ambiguity- with promotion to the PL it can be joined up easily enough due to the Regs being extremely similar, if not identicial but promotion and Relegation between Championship and League One?

For yoyo Clubs, well how do you calculate that?? Sheffield Wednesday have just been relegated, and will likely go in with a big loss in 2019/20 and 2020/21 combined average- does this go out the window- say they come back up? That big loss will be on the books but a year of League One, how the hell do you work that one out- what exactly constitutes...

Quote

"remain bound by these as if it were still a Championship Club, until such time as it has complied with all its obligations relating to its last Season as a Championship Club"

Clear as mud! Does it mean a) Up to and including 2020/21 or b) Until the period inclusive of 2020/21 has been exhausted- ie 2018/19, 2019/20 and 2020/21 combined average plus 2021/22 to be checked and then 2019/20 and 2020/21 combined average, 2021/22 and then 2022/23?

https://www.efl.com/contentassets/b3cd34c726c341ca9636610aa4503172/regulations-season-2021-22-final.pdf

Edited August 27, 2021 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

Not saying I want him but rumours that Reading- that's under FFP Reading who are currently in breach- are signing Drinkwater on loan from Chelsea.

Now Chelsea are doing them a fair few favours aren't they?? Wonder what kinda tieup they have, Chelsea would need to cover the bulk of his wages in order to comply with mooted wage limits- already done with Rahman (£50k per week on an £8,500 per week wage cap).

I didn't think Chelsea were really in the business of doling out favours in the market, always looked to maximise their gains I thought.

Potentially it's a workaround the wage cap if the loaning club covers the bulk.

Wonder what tieups we have...not that I necessarily would want Rahman or Drinkwater but!

Edited August 28, 2021 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

My latest Reading FC theory...

My theories probably get dafter the longer it drags without charges etc but...

• They have said the right things to the EFL, hence "constructive talks" etc. Either about negotiating a points deduction or about I dunno selling players and some kind of convoluted deal what with Covid whereby a willingness for big sales is factored in to avoid a points hit for even the last period.
• Hence allowed to sign a number of players within certain parameters.
• Except I doubt their Owner would be willing to take a points hit. Because he's used a great many loopholes after all-  Stadium in 2017/18, Stadium again from said Parent in 2018/19, then the old Training Ground, Land around the Stadium in 2018/19- plus an Aluko loan fee of £3m to his Chinese club.
• In addition, let's not forget, bids turned down for: 2018 (Moore), 2019 (Loader)- the guy left for modest compensation to Porto/Porto B in 2020 yet Wolves apparently put in a multi million pound bid, then Swift Summer 2020- indeed there was talk but I couldn't find any proof of a bid for Meite in one of those years as well.
• They also signed Ejaria on a loan to buy in Summer 2019- the Transfer eventually went through in 2020 after some back and forth- that was in doubt for some time, the latter bit of loan to buy!

None of that is to seems like the action of a) An owner who is willing to make big player sales to balance the books and b) Willing to negotiate a points deduction.

My slight conspiracy theory therefore is that they say this, they say that in order to get leeway to add some players at all- remember when Birmingham got pissy it was a full embargo in 2018- and then post the window closing the Reading Board say something like:

Quote

"Agree to a points deduction? You must be joking! Player sales ie big ones? Wasn't Olise enough- and Richards going on a free! We're not agreeing to any of it, you'll have to refer us to an Independent Disciplinary Commission and try to win your deduction that way".

Still possible that there could be some bigger sales, only issue is that a number of the saleable assets seem to be injured and are mooted to be for some while. Meite and Joao to name 2- think Ejaria also could be.

As it stands, unless they are in the process of agreeing to some severe sanctions, their case and actions seem miles worse than Birmingham in varied respects, suppose the only real thing you can nail Birmingham as worse for is the Pedersen bit...but then Ejaria loan to buy/with obligation to do so, when you know you could well still be under an Embargo has shades of Birmingham IMO.

@AnotherDerbyFan we've actually discussed this case before- yes my theories are a bit out there perhaps, clearly too I added a bit of poetic license but back to reality, interested in your take as to the Reading situation and seemingly a lack of charges or deduction to date.

Edited August 29, 2021 by Mr Popodopolous

[BLRed]

How are reading able to sign halilovic, Baba Rahman And Scott Dann with a supposed wage restriction of £8.5k per player. All three of them would have been on way more than that....

[Hxj]

20 minutes ago, BOSRed said:

How are reading able to sign halilovic, Baba Rahman And Scott Dann with a supposed wage restriction of £8.5k per player. All three of them would have been on way more than that....

Because the rules say they can. By my guestimate Reading had 18 Established Players at the beginning of the season. From the EFL

 

A Club is under Embargo in relation to a Profit & Sustainability rule breach, is there any circumstances under which that Club can register players?

Each individual case will be determined by the EFL, though considerations will be given in the circumstances of:

Re-engagement with currently registered players
Signing an Emergency Loan Goalkeeper
Academy players
The Club having less than 24 Established Players
Established Player (Championship Clubs) - A player aged 21 or over as at the 30 June immediately prior to the commencement of the season in which the Club is subject to the Embargo and who has been named in the starting XI on a total of at least five occasions*.

*in EFL League, EFL Cup, EFL Trophy, FA Cup or equivalent competitions for any Club in any equivalent League to the Championship or higher.

How is the number of players these Clubs can acquire managed?

If the Club has 24 or more Established Players they can only sign new players on a one in one out basis, though this will be dependent upon the circumstances of the individual Club and will be determined by the League.
Where a Club has less than 24 Established Players they can register players up to the 24 limit, though again this will be dependent upon the circumstances of the individual Club and will be determined by the League.

[Mr Popodopolous]

Surprised Scott Dann would sign on those terms tbh!

2 hours ago, BOSRed said:

How are reading able to sign halilovic, Baba Rahman And Scott Dann with a supposed wage restriction of £8.5k per player. All three of them would have been on way more than that....

Chelsea seem to do favours for Reading, think they'd be covering most of his wages. They've done this before apparently.

As for Reading. Hopefully charges or a suitably sized agreed deduction will follow sooner rather than later. Their FFP track record is appalling.

Halilovic, good point too. He turned down a new deal at Birmingham, surprise that he'd take £8.5k per week and a 1 year deal at Reading, surely Birmingham would have offered him a better deal.

Edited August 30, 2021 by Mr Popodopolous