The Championship FFP Thread (Merged)

[Davefevs]

25 minutes ago, downendcity said:

Steve Gibson has more balls than the EFL for being prepared to put his head above the parapet. 

I fear that Derby's will be able to defend their position on the basis tha they have not "broken" EFL rules in the strictest legal sense. 

However, as it is a civil action brought by one club against another it will be interesting to see if they for Derby under the "fair dealing with other clubs" (not sure of exact wording) part of the rules. 

If it achieves nothing else it will cause the EFL maximum embarrassment and might cause many to question why a club Is taking action for something the EFL should be addressing. 

The stream of twitter comments from fans only further reinforces the feeling that too many fans still don't get it. They see it as sour grapes and fail to appreciate the serious issues involved. 

It will force the issue - and I reckon a next action against the EFL for not following their rules.

The worm is turning.

Edited May 24, 2019 by Davefevs

[Mr Popodopolous]

36 minutes ago, downendcity said:

Steve Gibson has more balls than the EFL for being prepared to put his head above the parapet. 

I fear that Derby's will be able to defend their position on the basis tha they have not "broken" EFL rules in the strictest legal sense. 

However, as it is a civil action brought by one club against another it will be interesting to see if they for Derby under the "fair dealing with other clubs" (not sure of exact wording) part of the rules. 

If it achieves nothing else it will cause the EFL maximum embarrassment and might cause many to question why a club Is taking action for something the EFL should be addressing. 

The stream of twitter comments from fans only further reinforces the feeling that too many fans still don't get it. They see it as sour grapes and fail to appreciate the serious issues involved. 

 

11 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

It will force the issue - and I reckon a next action against the EFL for not following their rules.

The worm is turning.

Yeah- got a good feeling about this.

I wonder if EFL might in a bid to save their own skin suddenly enforce the in-season punishments and have the playoffs replayed...it's highly unlikely but people do funny things when up against it- as EFL may yet be:

Demote the two finalists, scrub the results?

Leeds-Bristol City

West Brom-Middlesbrough

I would have thought, but maybe the rules don't have sufficient scope good faith, abuse of a dominant position- as pointed out by @chinapig the other day and market rates, vs doubling of rates could cover a lot of this anyway- still thinking it's also a question of willingness and indeed competence to enforce as well as loopholes being exploited.

Edited May 24, 2019 by Mr Popodopolous

[Guest]

40 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Not just us though- there are many clubs who have sold or restrained spending to try to stay in-line with it all.

That is why I think as many clubs as possible is a good way forward- it is gaining an advantage through manifestly unfair, means. A points deduction would have settled the issue for Derby and Aston Villa. Out the playoffs? Their hard luck, for not adhering to the regs correctly.

Technically I think the EFL have the power to stop promotion. Any punishment they see fit, nothing is off the table- as per their own rules. Whether it is at all realistic is a different matter.

I suppose we don’t know the detail / legal route they are going down.

That’s partly why I’m surprised if it is a traditional route because does Derby owe a duty of care to their competitors or not?is it not the EFL who has to enforce the rules and it is their failure is what harms Boro not what a private company does blah blah blah. I suppose Sheff Utd going the traditional route v West Ham and Tevez shows they can demonstrate a duty of care between clubs. 

Sometimes ‘too many cooks’ rings true. I think so in this situation also as it looks vindictive. 

If you were relegated this year, I’d join; if you just missed play offs in 7th v one club, I’d join, if it was against Villa too, 8th I’d suggest join. And cascade. 

There is nothing to stop Boro pointing to other club’s actions to comply and how this negatively affected the whole league. But if we were a party, I think it takes away from the impact. Boro have a strong direct effect, they finished one spot behind a lottery. We, I honestly think would take away from the strength of that argument. 

[Davefevs]

I wonder what Gibson’s motives / objections are:

• Fair play?
• Financial compensation for Boro and financial ruin for Derby (assume they might then sue valuer)
• Derby denied promotion should they achieve it
• Adjustment of Derby’s FFP submission, resulting in embargo, points deduction, etc
• Loophole closed

[Wrongagain]

SL’s silence could be down to the fact that spygate ended up a little silly - handbags!

I think perhaps a different tack this time around- no point in having MA’s voice at the top table if he can’t fight our corner while at the same time pushing the EFL towards investigation and action against FFP cheats. 

The court action will certainly galvanise the EFL to get in and up close, if they don’t and the case is proved they end up looking really weak and stupid - on top of their support for the most inept officials in football!

In Germany they call refs  Shiedsrichter (shot umpire) or Spieleiter (game leader) or more importantly for some of the EFL officials - the neutral one (who probably lives in the midlands and cant be named) - Der unparteiischer

[BLRed]

Honestly, I think nothing will come of this and they will be allowed to get away with it. Or at least the promoted team. If they let one get away, they can't then punish others so it's all or nothing and EFL don't have the backbone to stand up to the bigger clubs spending above their means. 

They afterall, probably see these big clubs as a draw for viewers to watch the EFL leagues. Hence why they get the lions share of sky action. 

All the clubs doing things the right way will be left questioning why bother doing things the right way when you can get away with murder to achieve the grand prize of promotion and a bottomless pit of money.

[Mr Popodopolous]

56 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I wonder what Gibson’s motives / objections are:

• Fair play?
• Financial compensation for Boro and financial ruin for Derby (assume they might then sue valuer)
• Derby denied promotion should they achieve it
• Adjustment of Derby’s FFP submission, resulting in embargo, points deduction, etc
• Loophole closed

Would've thought Mel Morris could pay off the second, but 1and 3-5 absolutely. Solid objectives IMO.

Perhaps a 6th..deterrence. Lots of owners will be watching with interest. May even be involved on the quiet.

As if I owned a club that made sacrifices- ie player sales for one, maybe restraint in January- or even both and saw this unfolding I would absolutely be!

Edited May 24, 2019 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

32 minutes ago, BOSRed said:

Honestly, I think nothing will come of this and they will be allowed to get away with it. Or at least the promoted team. If they let one get away, they can't then punish others so it's all or nothing and EFL don't have the backbone to stand up to the bigger clubs spending above their means. 

They afterall, probably see these big clubs as a draw for viewers to watch the EFL leagues. Hence why they get the lions share of sky action. 

All the clubs doing things the right way will be left questioning why bother doing things the right way when you can get away with murder to achieve the grand prize of promotion and a bottomless pit of money.

Interesting- but this could be seriously challenged at a number of levels.

Nor only our courts but the CAS (Court of Arbitration for Sport). 

July or August 2018, AC Milan banned from UEFA competition. Their legal defence was that PSG and Man City especially weren't banned, plus Inter.

Though I looked at their losses and they were far more restrained than the petro clubs in their building days.

Anyway I digress- the point was they were treated in a fundamentally different manner- CAS sent UEFA back to drawing board for AC Milan.

Hence, unequal treatment can set a precedent. Here maybe it can compel EFL to produce Aston Villa, Derby and Sheffield Wednesday accounts..

Then EFL may have little choice but to allow some kind of parity.

That could be consistent punishment. Or allowing all other clubs to do this once before shutting the loopholes off.

[chinapig]

5 hours ago, BOSRed said:

Honestly, I think nothing will come of this and they will be allowed to get away with it. Or at least the promoted team. If they let one get away, they can't then punish others so it's all or nothing and EFL don't have the backbone to stand up to the bigger clubs spending above their means. 

They afterall, probably see these big clubs as a draw for viewers to watch the EFL leagues. Hence why they get the lions share of sky action. 

All the clubs doing things the right way will be left questioning why bother doing things the right way when you can get away with murder to achieve the grand prize of promotion and a bottomless pit of money.

This is my expectation too. Apart from its own weakness in policing the finances and governance of its member clubs, the EFL would face a hostile media, which would back Derby simply because Frank Lampard is a celebrity manager and they love a celeb.

I don't believe the EFL has the chutzpah to face that down. In which event a coach and horses will have been driven through FFP and a free for all may as well follow.

[downendcity]

3 hours ago, chinapig said:

This is my expectation too. Apart from its own weakness in policing the finances and governance of its member clubs, the EFL would face a hostile media, which would back Derby simply because Frank Lampard is a celebrity manager and they love a celeb.

I don't believe the EFL has the chutzpah to face that down. In which event a coach and horses will have been driven through FFP and a free for all may as well follow.

Best hope that Sarri gets the boot and is replaced by FL. 

Without a celeb manager would Derby lose that media backing? 

[reddoh]

I am a simpleton,

but stupidly I think that they should change the rules slightly

when a club goes tits up 

1) the little people, suppliers (who currently don't get paid) get paid.

2) the staff (non footballers) get paid.

3) the footballers get paid

4) lastly and by no means most the owner gets what is ever left 

that should solve the problem???????

 

[Davefevs]

10 minutes ago, reddoh said:

I am a simpleton,

but stupidly I think that they should change the rules slightly

when a club goes tits up 

1) the little people, suppliers (who currently don't get paid) get paid.

2) the staff (non footballers) get paid.

3) the footballers get paid

4) lastly and by no means most the owner gets what is ever left 

that should solve the problem???????

 

5) where Ken Anderson is the Owner, he should get eff all, and his son too.

[reddoh]

2 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

5) where Ken Anderson is the Owner, he should get eff all, and his son too.

let me be the fool

and keep my serious head offline.

[Davefevs]

According to Kieran Maguire, he thinks Villa have already sold their ground and leased it back.

[BanburyRed]

Apologies if this question has been asked before - but if one of Villa or Derby or both infact are found to be in breach of FFP, what are the implications to them once in the PL? Does this action carry forward? Do EFL and PL operate on different levels of FFP?

[Bristol Rob]

1 minute ago, BanburyRed said:

Apologies if this question has been asked before - but if one of Villa or Derby or both infact are found to be in breach of FFP, what are the implications to them once in the PL? Does this action carry forward? Do EFL and PL operate on different levels of FFP?

My understanding is that the PL and EFL are two very different beasts.

QPR were punished on relegation, Leicester chose to pay the EFL a fine as a premier league club. Not sure about Bournemouth.

So my guess is that if found guilty, the EFL will let then know what the five is and they can either pay it, or dispute it.

[Mr Popodopolous]

2 hours ago, Davefevs said:

According to Kieran Maguire, he thinks Villa have already sold their ground and leased it back.

I saw it too Dave.

I read a figure on some comment on an article that Villa Park sale maybe £200m...TWO HUNDRED!?

 Clubs and the EFL have to be really firm if they've done the same...think the question of "EFL Golden Share" needs to come onto the table. It really does.

Are the rest of the League owners going to take this on the chin? I'd be stunned if they did...some very rich men indeed amongst those owners, and in some cases- Marinakis being one- influential in their own nations to some level.

Edited May 27, 2019 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

2 hours ago, Bristol Rob said:

My understanding is that the PL and EFL are two very different beasts.

QPR were punished on relegation, Leicester chose to pay the EFL a fine as a premier league club. Not sure about Bournemouth.

So my guess is that if found guilty, the EFL will let then know what the five is and they can either pay it, or dispute it.

I have read in places that sanctions ie points deductions or embargos can follow a side up- whether it'd be enforced though...

Kieran Maguire thinks fines only but in reality they should. Not in the PL's interest though, is it.

[chinapig]

16 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

I saw it too Dave.

I read a figure on some comment on an article that Villa Park sale maybe £200m...TWO HUNDRED!?

 Clubs and the EFL have to be really firm if they've done the same...think the question of "EFL Golden Share" needs to come onto the table. It really does.

Are the rest of the League owners going to take this on the chin? I'd be stunned if they did...some very rich men indeed amongst those owners, and in some cases- Marinakis being one- influential in their own nations to some level.

I know I keep repeating myself but the other clubs have already let Derby get away with it so they are in no position to tell Villa they can't do the same.

Unless Gibson succeeds in his action we may as well wave FFP goodbye as other clubs will now come up with different scams knowing they are likely to get away with it.

 

[Mr Popodopolous]

9 minutes ago, chinapig said:

I know I keep repeating myself but the other clubs have already let Derby get away with it so they are in no position to tell Villa they can't do the same.

Unless Gibson succeeds in his action we may as well wave FFP goodbye as other clubs will now come up with different scams knowing they are likely to get away with it.

 

Emergency meeting or announcement that the playoff promotion of whoever wins today will be subject to a review and a vote by the Championship 24 would do it. That'd be a game changer.

Do the EFL understand the seriousness of all this- clubs going to the court system as they appear to have lost faith in the Governing body, is pretty drastic escalation of the stakes!

Edited May 27, 2019 by Mr Popodopolous

[chinapig]

43 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Emergency meeting or announcement that the playoff promotion of whoever wins today will be subject to a review and a vote by the Championship 24 would do it. That'd be a game changer.

Do the EFL understand the seriousness of all this- clubs going to the court system as they appear to have lost faith in the Governing body, is pretty drastic escalation of the stakes!

It would do it but I see no evidence that the clubs have the guts to act. Or that they are particularly bothered. I'd love to be proven wrong but they had a chance and chickened out.

The fact remains that the clubs are themselves the de facto governing body but show no inclination to govern when the chips are down.

Bitterly disappointing but not surprising. The business of football stinks from a combination of dishonesty and incompetence, and worse.

[Mr Popodopolous]

7 minutes ago, chinapig said:

It would do it but I see no evidence that the clubs have the guts to act. Or that they are particularly bothered. I'd love to be proven wrong but they had a chance and chickened out.

The fact remains that the clubs are themselves the de facto governing body but show no inclination to govern when the chips are down.

Bitterly disappointing but not surprising. The business of football stinks from a combination of dishonesty and incompetence, and worse.

I agree with a lot of what you say. Especially about the business of football.

I also think this issue won't go away though- a simple majority vote of the clubs, absolute democracy in action there.

I just don't see the remaining 21, 22 clubs accepting the status quo, how on earth can they. More to the point, why should they?

Maybe FFP will be scrapped in the Championship because letting 2-3 clubs get away with taking the piss is plainly untenable.

People like to and rightly so slate FIFA and UEFA, but are our own football Governing bodies really much better?

[Davefevs]

1 minute ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

I agree with a lot of what you say. Especially about the business of football.

I also think this issue won't go away though- a simple majority vote of the clubs, absolute democracy in action there.

I just don't see the remaining 21, 22 clubs accepting the status quo, how on earth can they. More to the point, why should they?

Maybe FFP will be scrapped in the Championship because letting 2-3 clubs get away with taking the piss is plainly untenable.

People like to and rightly so slate FIFA and UEFA, but are our own football Governing bodies really much better?

Part of the reason FFP was brought in was Platini (great footballer - awful administrator) wanting to break England’s dominance of the Champions League, allowing a French team a chance.  Spain then dominated, but it is going full-circle with English clubs again.  Platini couldn’t stop Sky, and PSG fail again.

The lower league versions in this country, I'm not convinced have been rigorously applied either, and it’s all becoming a bit of a farce.

If Gibson’s lawsuit fails to have any impact on the rules and Villa’s ground sale swells their coffers, then I think it’s time to admit defeat, and either accept there are those taking advantage of the rules and there are those who aren’t.  Not sure where SL will sit...unchanged I suspect, playing by the rules....but expect FFP to die a death.

[chinapig]

26 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Part of the reason FFP was brought in was Platini (great footballer - awful administrator) wanting to break England’s dominance of the Champions League, allowing a French team a chance.  Spain then dominated, but it is going full-circle with English clubs again.  Platini couldn’t stop Sky, and PSG fail again.

The lower league versions in this country, I'm not convinced have been rigorously applied either, and it’s all becoming a bit of a farce.

If Gibson’s lawsuit fails to have any impact on the rules and Villa’s ground sale swells their coffers, then I think it’s time to admit defeat, and either accept there are those taking advantage of the rules and there are those who aren’t.  Not sure where SL will sit...unchanged I suspect, playing by the rules....but expect FFP to die a death.

I think SL's position will remain unchanged in that he wants the club to be sustainable financially, regardless of FFP. I believe that is his priority above all else.

If he had strong enough feelings about other clubs complying with FFP he would have supported Gibson at the EFL meeting. He didn't and neither did anybody else.

If somebody like Steve is not prepared to stand up for the principle then FFP's death throes have already started.

[ScottishRed]

On 23/05/2019 at 17:03, chinapig said:

Agreed, but as far as we can tell Steve Gibson was a lone voice when he raised objections about Derby. 

Steve L was quick to have a go about the trivial 'spygate ' nonsense but we have heard nothing about his view of a club circumventing FFP when he plays by the rules. Which leads me to assume he is not bothered.

Shaun Harvey, who has a somewhat chequered past, was forced out as EFL CEO of course. Perhaps somebody at Ashton Gate has their eye on that job in due course. Though I can't think who.

Nor can I........

Maybe ‘due course’ is actually quite soon......might explain a few things regarding our apparent silence on these matters.

[Mr Popodopolous]

4 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Part of the reason FFP was brought in was Platini (great footballer - awful administrator) wanting to break England’s dominance of the Champions League, allowing a French team a chance.  Spain then dominated, but it is going full-circle with English clubs again.  Platini couldn’t stop Sky, and PSG fail again.

The lower league versions in this country, I'm not convinced have been rigorously applied either, and it’s all becoming a bit of a farce.

If Gibson’s lawsuit fails to have any impact on the rules and Villa’s ground sale swells their coffers, then I think it’s time to admit defeat, and either accept there are those taking advantage of the rules and there are those who aren’t.  Not sure where SL will sit...unchanged I suspect, playing by the rules....but expect FFP to die a death.

Is an interesting one. When it was first mooted, FFP, I remember it was part of some grand idealistic reform, so it was said.

Not just French, I seem to recall his vision was a reformed CL- a seriously reformed one and I seem to recall straight knockout in a huge competition of 256 sides.

Maybe combining the 2 European club competitions- was a wide range of ideas, seem to recall these in mid to late 2000s.

PSG and their failings...think they've got significant cultural failings. Great players, some good managers but lacking something... their collapse v Man Utd was astonishing and I think the star players there hold a lot too much sway. Something rotten, sub-elite in the culture the DNA almost there IMO.

It's looking that way. This season was an acid test really. I suspect though that if an EFL club were to win FA Cup or League Cup and no FFP rules, then a UEFA License would be doubtful.

I also think though from a Platini viewpoint he wasn't keen on monopolies or near monopolies... he got votes from smaller and middle ranking European Leagues for one.

I remember he made some changes to CL...possible clash or sign of clash between UK and European types of capitalism?

More laisse faire v interventionist, Platini looking at pushing the latter in CL. Think more to it though than he just wanted a French side winning it or going far.

[NcnsBcfc]

On 24/05/2019 at 20:12, CyderInACan said:

 

Exclusive: Middlesbrough to sue Derby over alleged breaches of financial rules

share 

Middlesbrough and Derby in action earlier this season

•  John Percy 

24 MAY 2019 • 7:36 PM

Middlesbrough have stunned Derby by announcing their intention to sue the Championship club, days before the play-off final at Wembley.

Steve Gibson, the Middlesbrough owner, has taken drastic action in his dispute with Mel Morris by vowing to take legal action over what he insists are clear breaches of financial rules.

 

Gibson is alleging that Morris has broken the English Football League’s profitability and sustainability rules and Middlesbrough officials contacted Derby on Friday to inform them of their stance.

Boro are understood to be furious that Derby reported a £14.6m profit in their 2017/18 accounts, after Morris sold the club’s Pride Park stadium and then leased it back. Gibson believes that Morris has flouted the rules.

Derby are adamant they have been fully compliant, and the timing of Middlesbrough’s shock move has surprised the club ahead of their play-off final against Aston Villa on Monday.

 

 

Morris also twice invited Middlesbrough officials to look at Derby’s accounts in a meeting of all EFL clubs at Nottingham Forest’s City Ground in March.

He said: "Middlesbrough were offered by us in writing to come with their advisors to go through our submissions for profitability and sustainability, [but] they declined."

Gibson’s attempt to force an independent inquiry of club finances was also rejected by all of the Championship clubs in another meeting last month.

Villa and Sheffield Wednesday have also been in Gibson’s sights but his row with Derby is now threatening to turn ugly.

Derby were unavailable for comment.

 

Christ reg.

I know we're getting old. But how large donyiu want the text?????

[CyderInACan]

54 minutes ago, ncnsbcfc said:

Christ reg.

I know we're getting old. But how large donyiu want the text?????

Yeah yeah yeah it was just how it was formatted from copy & paste. Don’t blame me etc etc 

At least I can spell, though, eh 

[wayne allisons tongues]

Maybe as Prince William is President of the FA, Villa misdemeanours are being overlooked.

[BS4 on Tour...]

2 hours ago, CyderInACan said:

Yeah yeah yeah it was just how it was formatted from copy & paste. Don’t blame me etc etc 

At least I can spell, though, eh 

How do we know you can spell?! You copied and pasted an article with no input from yourself?