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The Championship FFP Thread (Merged)


Mr Popodopolous

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So why haven’t derby been sanctioned at all yet? Didn’t they fail to pay their players at one point this season? Should have been an instant points deduction. Could derby still gain a points deduction at all and still get relegated?

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In theory yes.

There is supposed to be an EFL Appeal against the Amortisation issue ongoing. The season technically hasn't closed yet with Playoffs so any deduction should be applied instantly I think. If it is one point that would be the ultimate cop-out that keeps them up on GD, 2 pts or more sends them down.

Both Derby and Sheffield Wednesday have had issues paying wages this season- there should be action about that. I agree, should be an instant deduction- the ridiculous thing was that when wages were finally paid a month late after money and player sales, they signed 5 on loan!? Derby I mean.

As for Reading, it's not their current managers fault, the bulk of this predates him- but as a club they got themselves into a major mess:

  1. Liam Moore- Bid turned down.
  2. Loader- Bid turned down- he left on a free or for minimal compensation.
  3. Swift- Turned down bid in Summer 2020.

Also speculation about Meite bid turned down and in Summer 2019 after being released from a Soft Embargo, they promptly within a month, proceeded to add Joao and Puscas. ?

Should they even have signed Ejaria permanently in Summer 2020 given their position?

Not as if they're a poor, struggling bumping the bottom club without saleable playing assets.

As for Derby, their fans seem to think the EFL Appeal it's a relatively minor offence which can't result in a deduction- erm dunno about that! If it's just a fine, reprimand or point of law/regulation why the 7 weeks and counting! Was meant to have started on 20th March 2021.

Edited by Mr Popodopolous
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1 minute ago, BOSRed said:

So why haven’t derby been sanctioned at all yet? Didn’t they fail to pay their players at one point this season? Should have been an instant points deduction. Could derby still gain a points deduction at all and still get relegated?

Not likely, Wayne Rooney is their manager after all, which would be grounds for giving them a points addition surely?

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13 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Bit of FFP speculation below.

I think that this is all a bit premature.  No one has been charged yet and no one has submitted 2021 accounts.  They have some time to rectify matters.

I hope that this part of a media campaign by Reading on the unfairness of sanctions, not a private deal done in the back corners of a smoky zoom call!

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3 hours ago, Hxj said:

I think that this is all a bit premature.  No one has been charged yet and no one has submitted 2021 accounts.  They have some time to rectify matters.

I hope that this part of a media campaign by Reading on the unfairness of sanctions, not a private deal done in the back corners of a smoky zoom call!

True. The media campaign, maybe there will be one, Paunovic put a case in the run up to this weekends game about as he put it, 'A fair chance to compete'. Also something about actions this season being taken into account etc.  

A Disciplinary Commission should do that as part of mitigating and aggravating factors but no reason to push any hypothetical charges/soft embargo and more away.

Many of the issues predated him in fairness but unless big player sales by end of June...

Can only assume the prognosis for them isn't good based on manager comments etc.

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I'm not going to get excited until we have more out there but read online that Nixon has apparently stated that a big points deduction could be on the way for Derby.

https://the72.co.uk/234649/alan-nixon-derby-county-face-massive-points-deduction-as-finer-details-emerge-following-season-finale/

On a side note, Derby fans or at least their forum. I dunno- a few still seem to propagate the myth that Gibson selling a tax loss helped then pass FFP in 2016. FFP calcs are tax neutral, FFS!! The clue is in Profit or Loss Before Tax.

If interpretations of his Report are to be believed, they may have won Appeal but held off details so that it didn't disrupt their relegation battle. Er, what!? How is that fair on rivals down the bottom.

They announced on September 7th or 8th 2020 their intention to Appeal, they reportedly submitted evidence in December 2020 and it reportedly began ie the latest Instalment on March 20th 2021.

I could be unfairly extrapolating from a single forum or mouthy Twitter posters but they strike as needing taking down a peg.

Edited by Mr Popodopolous
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New charges eh?? That would be fantastic, I've not found the piece, but new charges would be excellent.

Decent numbers of their fans seem awfully blind to a lot of things, maybe wilfully so. If you want a different perspective let's say, have a read of Dcfcfans (if you don't already).

They've never once mentioned eg James Delve being a passionate Derby fan (he signed off the Accounts in the year of the Stadium Sale) let alone the other stuff that's of possible interest between Auditor, Club, Morris down the years.

Just how arms length could it have been.

I digress, new charges would be interesting to see in terms of what they might be.

Edited by Mr Popodopolous
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Well, which was it G STAR- if it's an offset vs Debtors and intercompany loans, where does the Cash Flow come in- see other clubs for this unique approach. Anything else sold for £81.1m?

image.thumb.png.0ebbeb7be4a450a44b41a83509b066fb.png

image.thumb.png.eb68f38cc4101a374bab03f83db19b3d.png

image.thumb.png.ce7a6c945250cb0d4104b4ab4b553c6f.png

Increased by about £61m in terms of Amounts owed by Group Undertakings. 

As for another poster, maybe just maybe I'm not wanting clubs to wriggle off the hook and am scared off the back of a resurgence by a lightly dealt with club.

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Putting aside my long range arguments with varied posters on DCFCFans, I would make one objective point.

It is possibly bad reporting by Nixon or alternatively the penny may not have dropped with them that fresh charges for a 3 year period could be coming. That if so would be quite separate to the EFL Amortisation Appeal.

Assume they've won this ongoing case then.

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7 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Page 31 onwards on the EFL Appeal thread makes for very amusing reading.

They’re saying we’re (well you ?) are hypocrites because ‘City bullied their players into ripping up their contracts’ re the AG8. Love to see them go down still. 

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1 minute ago, lenred said:

They’re saying we’re (well you ?) are hypocrites because ‘City bullied their players into ripping up their contracts’ re the AG8. Love to see them go down still. 

Haha I have said some hard things but here is my position now, hope a few see it:

*Do I wish bankruptcy. Ultimately no. I have angrily ranted in the past.

*Do I wish relegation at the earliest? Hell yes!!

*Do I consider them cheats? Not in so many words but if the Independent Panel rule against, how can we argue!

*Do I consider them arrogant? Yes. I think back to their Statements, the gloating of Sideshow Mel on Talksport, the constantly getting away with it. Their forum and social media yes, good proof.

*Should Stephen Pearce be booted off the EFL Board? Hell yes, overdue.

*Have I found the fall from overspend to leveraging assets amusing? Yep.

*Do I think Sideshow Mel and Alonso eg would be daft enough to try and diddle MSD? If sufficiently desperate and it'd be a car crash but car crashes can be oddly compelling, with Popcorn to hand- Dell is worth billions and is American so reckon he wouldn't be that averse to litigation.

Ultimately though, I so, so hope they drop.

Up The Wycombe, Up The EFL.

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The position is now clearer having revisited the original decision.

I doubt that the appeal was made on a point of principle, we want to appeal but if we win it has no impact.

So if we assume that the amortisation policy is held to be wrong and the appeal has an impact then Derby must have breached FFP.

That would be a starting point of a 12 point deduction.  Can't see it being any less than that.

Kieran Maguire's figures suggest that that is the case.

Edited by Hxj
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Yep, bloody Pack eh- how often does he score.

What a toad and a weasel Sideshow Mel is.

I'd love the Singing Section if things are normalish next year ie fans can go and fans can go home and away to get some sort of anti Derby and anti Morris chants going assuming it's pushed into next season...

...Of course I'd hope justice to be done and a Stevenage on Macclesfield type situation to send Derby down- Wycombe Wanderers, come on down!

Edited by Mr Popodopolous
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Based on the (excellently) provided figures a bit of a while back by @AnotherDerbyFan .

The 3 years to 2017/18:

As it stood:

T-2 -£15,127,000

T-1 -£13,948,000

T £7,207,000

P&S Loss=£21,868,000

Amortisation- the Derby way- £14.95m across the 3 year period.

The Straight Line but with Contract Extensions factored in:

£35.93m.

New and revised P&S Loss=£42,840,000- £3.84m over, or a 4 point deduction as per the tariff seen elsewhere.

Then the 3 years onto 2018/19.

As it stood:

T-2 -£15,127,000

T-1 -£13,948,000

T £7,207,000

P&S Loss=£21,868,000

Amortisation- the Derby way- £16.18m across the 3 year period.

T-2 -£13,407,000

T-1 £7,207,000

T -£31,517,000

Loss=£37,717,000.

Lampard compensation purportedly took it down to £37.1m.

The Straight Line but with Contract Extensions factored in:

£35.93m.

Oops that adds another £22.21m to that period.

£37.1m + £22.21m=P&S Loss of £59.31m!? ?

That's a 12 point deduction at the least.

Can only guess somewhat for the 3 years to 2019-20, not that they or anyone necessarily gets judged on that in isolation- wages down by £8m maybe??

T-2= £7,207,000

T-1= -£31,517,000

T? Read a suggestion of £38m somewhere in reality. However there is a significant spike in Amortisation which would not materialise with changed methods.

Suggested Amortisation=£36.24m.

Straight line but with Extensions this drops to- well actually it doesn't drop overall, rises slightly to £37.65m- a likely breach in any event!

Then there is the combination of this and next year potentially though God knows where to start...

Using original method?

T-2 £7,207,000 (in actual fact, T-3)

T-1 -£31,517,000 (in actual fact, T-2)

Combined Average of T and T-1??

For T-2 and T-1 we have a possible loss of: £38,980,000, that if we use the revised method.

Meaning a combined FFP average loss- albeit eased by a falling wage bill and therefore falling Amortisation- of £20k in the 2 years averaged out ie the 2019/20 and 2020/21.

Point is a fair chance they fail at least two periods with a revised method. Maybe even because of the very hefty adjusted possible loss of £38.98m in 2017/18 and 2018/19, they would fail the 3 years to Summer 2021 as well ie the 3 years inclusive of 2017/18, 2018/19 and combined this and last season.

Edited by Mr Popodopolous
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