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Can't wait for the new training ground, the Leeds spy will have to stand on the 12th green of the neighbouring golf course and one of their precious members will wrap a golf club around his head.

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4 minutes ago, Olé said:

Can't wait for the new training ground, the Leeds spy will have to stand on the 12th green of the neighbouring golf course and one of their precious members will wrap a golf club around his head.

Probably a three ball of Flint, O’Neil and Tomlin

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4 minutes ago, Med/MadHatter said:

Now that is what I call preparation, who ever did all that work certainly earned their corn!

If that's just from spying at training...imagine what info each club provides from Scouts watching games previously.

I don't think we as fans realise how much info and technology is provided each game these days.

A lot more than we would think.

Hence why it's become a game of chess at a fast pace.

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1 minute ago, spudski said:

If that's just from spying at training...imagine what info each club provides from Scouts watching games previously.

I don't think we as fans realise how much info and technology is provided each game these days.

A lot more than we would think.

Hence why it's become a game of chess at a fast pace.

That's not mainly from spying at training- could only gain a proportion of the info.

This is from Bielsa and his team watching every Derby game last season, analysing, key patterns, formations, team shapes- the work. They watched all 51 apparently.

As you say, a shitload of info and technology for each game. Phil Hay's Twitter feed definitely worth a read.

 

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On the whole there is an incredible amount of common sense being spoken by the majority of City fans on this thread.

A number of the so called pundits out there would do well to have a look-in.

For what it's worth, Biesla is some guy; honest, straight forward & a genius to boot.

The FA should be congratulating him for having faith in British youth & particulary young English players.

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1 minute ago, spudski said:

If that's just from spying at training...imagine what info each club provides from Scouts watching games previously.

I don't think we as fans realise how much info and technology is provided each game these days.

A lot more than we would think.

Hence why it's become a game of chess at a fast pace.

If all this info gathering started just from the start of this season then it is even more impressive, gotta hold my hands up to this  spying team they certainly have done their job! Goodness knows how the Leeds players learn all the info needed in time for game day!

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3 hours ago, Robbored said:

Easy enough - had you or anyone been wearing a City shirt they’d let you in to watch the training.

Same at Derby but the guy was stood on the edge of a footpath by some bushes. All he had to do was wear a Derby top. Nobody would have given him a second glance.

As much as it may pain a few (not me particularly) Robbo is right! The worst spy in history. 

Robbo did you wear a City shirt on your minibus tour with the Gas?

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3 hours ago, Woodsy said:

 

Apparently he's spied on every single team he's played against this year

That means us

I've changed my mind now

Dirty Leeds, dock them 100 points and relegated to Yorkshire Div 4 ?

 

Who's our spy then? Everyone saying it goes on everywhere and at every club. I reckon ours is this dodgy fella. No idea who he is... 

20190116_204859.jpg

 

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9 minutes ago, Med/MadHatter said:

 If all this info gathering started just from the start of this season then it is even more impressive, gotta hold my hands up to this  spying team they certainly have done their job! Goodness knows how the Leeds players learn all the info needed in time for game day!

https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/marcelo-bielsa-full-transcript-3000-13866685

Especially

Quote

 

*AT THIS POINT BIELSA LOADED UP HIS POWERPOINT*

Of each opponent we watched all of the games form the 2017-18 season. The 51 games of Derby County. We watched them. The analysis of each game takes four hours of work.

Why did we do that? Because we think this is professional behaviour. We try not to be ignorant of the competition we play in.

Tell me any game, point to any game.

*19 SAYS A JOURNALIST*

This is the analysis of that game. Both starting teams. ALl the data of the game, taking into the account the tactical scheme of the opponent.

Would you like to see another game?

*NUMBER 12, MAN UNITED VS DERBY SAYS ANOTHER*

I’m trying to convince you what I said is true. This is the same analysis. We watch the players in the 51 games, those who are still playing for Derby County.

The other thing we do is point out the chances to score, the half chances to score and which team dominates every five minutes. That’s why it takes four hours to analyse each game. This is not very useful.

It doesn’t put you in better conditions to win a game. But the way to respect the way football receives you is to make the effort to know the players and the teams.

I can’t speak English, but I can speak about the 24 teams of the Championship.

 
0_Leeds-United-v-Blackburn-Rovers-Sky-Be

Kemar Roofe has starred this season (Image: PA Wire)

The only goal of this is to see what were the positions of the players still in Derby from last year.

We also do video analysis where we register the goals, chances, and that’s why it takes four hours to analyse the game. It’s a process, a way to get to know the opponent.

This document allows us to know if one player has missed some games, if another has played or missed games. We see for example, he played against us then not anymore and we can express all these parameters with this graphic. I feel ashamed to have to tell you all this.

Let’s talk about the analysis that Derby played this season.

They played 31 games. 49% they used a 4-3-3 with No.8 [Mason Mount] on the right. In 22% a 4-3-3- but with the No.8 on the left. Same for the 4-2-1-3, with the No.8 on the right and left.

They also used structures, 3%, 2%, but they’re not significant. Before the game we knew perfectly that they would use these kind of systems.

 
0_Leeds-United-v-Derby-County-Sky-Bet-Ch

Mason Mount shoots against Leeds (Image: George Wood)

These structures gives you fixed priorities and we here have the minutes and the games to understand why Derby changes the system and when. If they change the system to keep a result or to try to score.

We also analyse if the changes are to give an offensive profile to the team or to give defensive strength. And if these changes work or not.

We also gather this kind of information. The structures Derby play against.

Why do we look at this? THe idea is to try to observe what is the most difficult structure for them to face?

I would to explain that all this information, I don’t memorise it. All the information that this report has responds to the questions I have asked myself over the last 30 years.

If you ask me the most difficult system for Derby to play against, I don’t have it in my mind. I can ask and look at the document.

I know I have the answer. We gather all this information from the 31 games.

 
0_Marcelo-Bielsa-Press-Conference-Thorp-

Bielsa and his powerpoint presentation (Image: PA)

Give me a number please. I’m doing this because I consider you don’t believe me. I want to give you factual elements to convince you I’m telling the truth.

Give me a number of I’ll carry one.

 

 

Quote

 

*NUMBER 27 - VS BRISTOL CITY*

This is the tactical analysis. This is the document. Have a look. The analysis of chances, goals, domination. We see in each segment of 5 minutes, who dominates and if they create chances.

Now lets have a look at the video of this game. We know what this player will do when he raises both hands. I know that and so do all the Championship head coaches.

This same game, in order to make our players understand it, we put the name of each player - a player cannot watch more than 10 or 15 minutes. If you don’t help a player with the rival's name, you cannot analyse each player.

*BIELSA THEN SHOWED A VIDEO*

 

As you can see, you have 40 minutes of offensive action from Derby from 31 games. When you see 41 minutes of attack, you see what is the path for the opponent to attack.

And if you do the same thing analysing what were the chances considered by Derby County, you see the defensive weaknesses that they do. Our goal is to sum up in seven or eight minutes to show to the player how Derby attack.

We also make a seven or eight minutes video showing the defensive weaknesses.

The goal of this analysis is to allow our players to have an idea of the opponent in 15 minutes.

We know Derby for 90% of the game use four systems. Here we have a table where we see each of these four systems. We see who plays in the 4-3-3. In red we have the usual starters and the second players are the subs and the third or fourth players play less.

If you want to have synthesis of the 31 games of Derby, we have them in this document.

For the fifth system we use, we also have this document. This is another way to see the same information on this document.

*CHANGES DOCUMENT*

Now let’s look at the tactical analysis. These are the players who play in different positions. These are the four basic systems. We look at each player and I know how many minutes each player plays in each position.

Lets look at each player.

He played 1,772 minutes as a left-back and 70 minutes as a left winger.

This player played as a left offensive midfielder, as a No.8 on the left and on the right, a No.4 on the centre right, as left winger and as winger-midfielder on the right. With this info we know his main positions are the first three.

Another player. Wilson. He plays as a right and left winger and as an offensive midfielder on the left. All the data we can have, we have on a document and we know about his past.

 
0_2018-EFL-Championship-Football-Derby-C

Derby's Harry Wilson (Image: Action Plus via Getty Images)

This document allows us to understand the question we have.

These are the goalkeepers, the right-backs, the left-backs. This is the centre-back on the right and on the left. We do this for each position. We analyse each position.

Let’s look at the wingers.

Against Derby, Alioski played as a left-back. So who could play against him? No.20, 11, 7 and the player who played the least at the end of the day, played the game actually.

So this is No.9, plays on the left and on the right.

*AT THIS POINT ONE JOURNALIST APOLOGISES AND HAS TO LEAVE*

To sum up, these are the players and we have the position which they played. These are the players that were at Derby last year, the left-footed players and it’s easier to just focus on the left.

We gather information for the systems, we analyse to see which player goes in which system. I don’t need to watch a training session to know where they play.

So, why do I go?

Because it’s not forbidden, I didn’t know it would create such a reaction and even though going and watching an opponent is not useful, it allows me to keep my anxiety low.


 

 
They condense it all into 10-15 mins. 
Quote

This same game, in order to make our players understand it, we put the name of each player - a player cannot watch more than 10 or 15 minutes. If you don’t help a player with the rival's name, you cannot analyse each player.

 

@WolfOfWestStreet Bielsa is one of the foremost managers in some respects. Rest assured we analyse and scout opposition but he is pretty elite in certain respects.
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12 minutes ago, Med/MadHatter said:

If all this info gathering started just from the start of this season then it is even more impressive, gotta hold my hands up to this  spying team they certainly have done their job! Goodness knows how the Leeds players learn all the info needed in time for game day!

They would have years of info...as do most clubs mate.

Tbh...players get loads of info, some say too much...info overload.

You can see it sometimes when watching. Players often waiting for a reaction or move to happen from info given, rather than being intuitive or reacting.

Also, we as fans will often wonder why a player doesn't choose an obvious pass...it's often because of info and a game plan, to attack in certain areas of weakness that the Coaches see as weakest.

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7 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/marcelo-bielsa-full-transcript-3000-13866685

Especially

*NUMBER 27 - VS BRISTOL CITY*

This is the tactical analysis. This is the document. Have a look. The analysis of chances, goals, domination. We see in each segment of 5 minutes, who dominates and if they create chances.

Now lets have a look at the video of this game. We know what this player will do when he raises both hands. I know that and so do all the Championship head coaches.

This same game, in order to make our players understand it, we put the name of each player - a player cannot watch more than 10 or 15 minutes. If you don’t help a player with the rival's name, you cannot analyse each player.

*BIELSA THEN SHOWED A VIDEO*

 

As you can see, you have 40 minutes of offensive action from Derby from 31 games. When you see 41 minutes of attack, you see what is the path for the opponent to attack.

And if you do the same thing analysing what were the chances considered by Derby County, you see the defensive weaknesses that they do. Our goal is to sum up in seven or eight minutes to show to the player how Derby attack.

We also make a seven or eight minutes video showing the defensive weaknesses.

The goal of this analysis is to allow our players to have an idea of the opponent in 15 minutes.

We know Derby for 90% of the game use four systems. Here we have a table where we see each of these four systems. We see who plays in the 4-3-3. In red we have the usual starters and the second players are the subs and the third or fourth players play less.

If you want to have synthesis of the 31 games of Derby, we have them in this document.

For the fifth system we use, we also have this document. This is another way to see the same information on this document.

*CHANGES DOCUMENT*

Now let’s look at the tactical analysis. These are the players who play in different positions. These are the four basic systems. We look at each player and I know how many minutes each player plays in each position.

Lets look at each player.

He played 1,772 minutes as a left-back and 70 minutes as a left winger.

This player played as a left offensive midfielder, as a No.8 on the left and on the right, a No.4 on the centre right, as left winger and as winger-midfielder on the right. With this info we know his main positions are the first three.

Another player. Wilson. He plays as a right and left winger and as an offensive midfielder on the left. All the data we can have, we have on a document and we know about his past.

 
0_2018-EFL-Championship-Football-Derby-C

Derby's Harry Wilson (Image: Action Plus via Getty Images)

This document allows us to understand the question we have.

These are the goalkeepers, the right-backs, the left-backs. This is the centre-back on the right and on the left. We do this for each position. We analyse each position.

Let’s look at the wingers.

Against Derby, Alioski played as a left-back. So who could play against him? No.20, 11, 7 and the player who played the least at the end of the day, played the game actually.

So this is No.9, plays on the left and on the right.

*AT THIS POINT ONE JOURNALIST APOLOGISES AND HAS TO LEAVE*

To sum up, these are the players and we have the position which they played. These are the players that were at Derby last year, the left-footed players and it’s easier to just focus on the left.

We gather information for the systems, we analyse to see which player goes in which system. I don’t need to watch a training session to know where they play.

So, why do I go?

Because it’s not forbidden, I didn’t know it would create such a reaction and even though going and watching an opponent is not useful, it allows me to keep my anxiety low.

 

Wow! I am honestly stunned! Bielsa must be thinking the English league is backward (if he has been doing this elsewhere), and wondering what the big deal and fuss is all about!

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4 minutes ago, spudski said:

They would have years of info...as do most clubs mate.

Tbh...players get loads of info, some say too much...info overload.

You can see it sometimes when watching. Players often waiting for a reaction or move to happen from info given, rather than being intuitive or reacting.

Also, we as fans will often wonder why a player doesn't choose an obvious pass...it's often because of info and a game plan, to attack in certain areas of weakness that the Coaches see as weakest.

That makes sense, you can see that happening,  my eyes have well and truly been opened today :laugh:

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Mixed feelings. Analysed 51 derby games last season, well done, look at Man Utd from 2 months ago. What would Tottenham have learned, not much is the answer. This is not Derby last year, this is Frank Lampard's derby, and look at the turnover in players they've had. 

The focus on one club, part of me thinks this data was 'prepared' for this presser perhaps, and he's sucking a lot of people in. 

Simply, not buying it. 200 man hours + looking at history. Bollocks. 

I accept a lot of analysis goes in, a lot of quantitative and qualitative data, but I think this is hook line and sinker stuff. If he could replicate that for 20 other clubs tomorrow I'll apologise. Until then, I'm so cynical. 

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19 minutes ago, REDOXO said:

As much as it may pain a few (not me particularly) Robbo is right! The worst spy in history. 

It was the fact he was behaving in a suspicious manner with binoculars and wire cutters......

As I posted earlier - all he needed to do was wear a Derby shirt and he’d probably got invited in to watch.

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7 minutes ago, 29AR said:

Mixed feelings. Analysed 51 derby games last season, well done, look at Man Utd from 2 months ago. What would Tottenham have learned, not much is the answer. This is not Derby last year, this is Frank Lampard's derby, and look at the turnover in players they've had. 

The focus on one club, part of me thinks this data was 'prepared' for this presser perhaps, and he's sucking a lot of people in. 

Simply, not buying it. 200 man hours + looking at history. Bollocks. 

I accept a lot of analysis goes in, a lot of quantitative and qualitative data, but I think this is hook line and sinker stuff. If he could replicate that for 20 other clubs tomorrow I'll apologise. Until then, I'm so cynical. 

He quoted a number of Derby games this season and provided examples too though.

Gave analysis on Man Utd v Derby, Derby v us and Chelsea v Derby. Think he's pretty big on this side of the game etc.

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"It is from their foes, not their friends, that cities learn the lesson of building high walls" - Aristophanes.

I don't really care what the agreement between clubs is winning matters, its a competitive game and we need to learn the lessons of Leeds current success and the defend our walls.

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35 minutes ago, Med/MadHatter said:

Now that is what I call preparation, who ever did all that work certainly earned their corn!

A team of 8-10 analysts can do this level of workload to cover 2 games a week.

26 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

That's not mainly from spying at training- could only gain a proportion of the info.

This is from Bielsa and his team watching every Derby game last season, analysing, key patterns, formations, team shapes- the work. They watched all 51 apparently.

As you say, a shitload of info and technology for each game. Phil Hay's Twitter feed definitely worth a read.

 

I do think he’s trying to deflect away from the spying incident....almost trying to show that they do a shedload of other watching.

15 minutes ago, WolfOfWestStreet said:

Why aren't we doing this kind of shit.

I’d be surprised if we aren’t....to that level?  Who knows.  Depends on size of analyst team focusing on opposition.  Think Luke Werehun has a team of 8.  Some will be looking at possible players, some at opposition, some at our own performances.

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1 minute ago, Davefevs said:

A team of 8-10 analysts can do this level of workload to cover 2 games a week.

I do think he’s trying to deflect away from the spying incident....almost trying to show that they do a shedload of other watching.

I’d be surprised if we aren’t....to that level?  Who knows.  Depends on size of analyst team focusing on opposition.  Think Luke Werehun has a team of 8.  Some will be looking at possible players, some at opposition, some at our own performances.

Tbh there is possible deflection there, can agree on that. Also think he was out of order a tad- clearly greatly hard working but out of order a tad- going into such detail on Derby's tactics publicly. A few commonly used players and commonly used formations would have been enough, no need to go so far in.

Agree also we are likely doing it but not sure that level!

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11 minutes ago, 29AR said:

Mixed feelings. Analysed 51 derby games last season, well done, look at Man Utd from 2 months ago. What would Tottenham have learned, not much is the answer. This is not Derby last year, this is Frank Lampard's derby, and look at the turnover in players they've had. 

The focus on one club, part of me thinks this data was 'prepared' for this presser perhaps, and he's sucking a lot of people in. 

Simply, not buying it. 200 man hours + looking at history. Bollocks. 

I accept a lot of analysis goes in, a lot of quantitative and qualitative data, but I think this is hook line and sinker stuff. If he could replicate that for 20 other clubs tomorrow I'll apologise. Until then, I'm so cynical. 

Yeah agree.  I know my “What We Can Expect” threads can take a couple of hours to write (most take about an hour) and that’s mainly from Transfermarkt website and my own recall (bias!!!).  They are of course an amateur observation, but you’d imagine a professional with the skills and tools would be able to produce “stuff” more efficiently.

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