Emiliano Sala

[Loco Rojo]

38 minutes ago, CyderInACan said:

Total lack of class and dignity from Cardiff. Irrespective of the ins and outs of it all. 

I suspect most if not all clubs these days would try to do the same if these a chance they could save millions. Not defending Cardiff at all but to me this is business.

Football is not about integrity or doing what's morally right. It's a business, end of.

[Nibor]

15 minutes ago, Loco Rojo said:

I suspect most if not all clubs these days would try to do the same if these a chance they could save millions. Not defending Cardiff at all but to me this is business.

Football is not about integrity or doing what's morally right. It's a business, end of.

Saying "it's business" is an awful excuse.  It's not OK for business to act immorally for financial reasons and it never has been.  Many businesses make decisions for reasons other than purely monetary ones, and in this case that's what should have been done.  After all it is Cardiff's dodgy clique of agents and their families that arranged this flight, no fault of Nantes.  I hope FIFA throw the book at them.

[BS4 on Tour...]

3 hours ago, wood_red said:

Colin even went up in peoples estimations with the way he was around the whole situation. I don't think he will walk because of this though as will just say "is has nothing to do with me". No doubt if it was some other club doing the same to his club he would be all over the news kicking up a stink about it.

Sky Sports and the Media in general should be camped outside the Stadium demanding interviews and answers.

No need to use this thread to have a pop at Neil Warnock.....you have no idea how he would react if he was in another position, he has acted with a lot of dignity throughout this tragic episode....yet you still call him ‘Colin’....

[Loco Rojo]

51 minutes ago, Nibor said:

Saying "it's business" is an awful excuse.  It's not OK for business to act immorally for financial reasons and it never has been.  Many businesses make decisions for reasons other than purely monetary ones, and in this case that's what should have been done.  After all it is Cardiff's dodgy clique of agents and their families that arranged this flight, no fault of Nantes.  I hope FIFA throw the book at them.

If Cardiff or any club believe they have acted within the law and (more importantly) can prove it then they and in my view, majority of clubs would try to do the same thing to save millions. 

I don't condone it myself but for people to be surprised by this, surprises me. Football is a shady business these days with the amount of money being thrown about and if a business believes it legally hasn't done anything wrong then they will try to save money. The moral right thing to do won't come in to it - especially in modern football.

[Arsene's Wanger]

FIFA should just allow Nantes to kill one of Cardiff's players.

[Nibor]

10 minutes ago, Loco Rojo said:

If Cardiff or any club believe they have acted within the law and (more importantly) can prove it then they and in my view, majority of clubs would try to do the same thing to save millions.  

I don't condone it myself but for people to be surprised by this, surprises me. Football is a shady business these days with the amount of money being thrown about and if a business believes it legally hasn't done anything wrong then they will try to save money. The moral right thing to do won't come in to it - especially in modern football.

My experience is that the moral thing often comes into it in business - in fact more often than not.  Often that's for reasons of reputation rather than for the sake of it but it's still an important decision making factor. 

So whilst it's not a surprise that Cardiff try and find a way to wriggle out of it, it is still wrong and should not be excused or even misconstrued as common or normal.

[Maesknoll Red]

I’ll hold judgement until the full facts come out, it’s a PLC so it’s not like a rich owner paying it out of his pocket, the money has to be justified, the tax implications and the legalities have to be considered, I would doubt it’s something they’d do with having taken some serious legal advice. 

 

[lenred]

14 minutes ago, Nibor said:

My experience is that the moral thing often comes into it in business - in fact more often than not.  Often that's for reasons of reputation rather than for the sake of it but it's still an important decision making factor. 

So whilst it's not a surprise that Cardiff try and find a way to wriggle out of it, it is still wrong and should not be excused or even misconstrued as common or normal.

Reputational risk is a huge consideration in a lot of industries but alas football hasn’t been one of them for a very very long time. Money is all that matters in the vast majority of cases now it seems. This situation stinks but it seems the clubs involved don’t seem to care that their dirty laundry is going to be aired very publicly.  Very very sad. 

[BCFC11]

This whole situation stinks if you ask me, first of all the flight arrangements, club blames the agent, agent blames the club, the agent so say has nothing to hide and to stop having his name being dragged through the mud offers the club a live TV/Radio debate to prove any wrong doing on his behalf - Cardiff refused.

Nantes then contact FIFA as the first payment for Sala is missed by Cardiff as they think until the search for Sala and the Pilot should be concluded first, no issue with that but I did get the feeling that Cardiff had no intention of making any payments at all.

Then today’s news comes out, they seemed happy enough to accept all the condolences from everyone across the globe, tell everyone how distraught the club’s staff were and how the players needed counselling etc, but now he wasn’t their player? If they want to show the world what a vile club then carry on, I’ve known it for years but surely you’d want something like this kept out of the media, not only for the clubs sake but out of respect of the families?

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Maesknoll Red said:

I’ll hold judgement until the full facts come out, it’s a PLC so it’s not like a rich owner paying it out of his pocket, the money has to be justified, the tax implications and the legalities have to be considered, I would doubt it’s something they’d do with having taken some serious legal advice. 

 

Cardiff are a limited company not a plc. I think more likely they got advice ‘you’re liable for £15m, to challenge will cost £x and a chance of winning is Y%’ and the board found it favourable. 

[Up The City!]

1 hour ago, 29AR said:

Cardiff are a limited company not a plc. I think more likely they got advice ‘you’re liable for £15m, to challenge will cost £x and a chance of winning is Y%’ and the board found it favourable. 

Or we could turn it the other way and say that's the advice Nantes received.

It all depends on the wording of the transfer agreement which none of us know.

[Major Isewater]

7 hours ago, BCFC11 said:

This whole situation stinks if you ask me, first of all the flight arrangements, club blames the agent, agent blames the club, the agent so say has nothing to hide and to stop having his name being dragged through the mud offers the club a live TV/Radio debate to prove any wrong doing on his behalf - Cardiff refused.

Nantes then contact FIFA as the first payment for Sala is missed by Cardiff as they think until the search for Sala and the Pilot should be concluded first, no issue with that but I did get the feeling that Cardiff had no intention of making any payments at all.

Then today’s news comes out, they seemed happy enough to accept all the condolences from everyone across the globe, tell everyone how distraught the club’s staff were and how the players needed counselling etc, but now he wasn’t their player? If they want to show the world what a vile club then carry on, I’ve known it for years but surely you’d want something like this kept out of the media, not only for the clubs sake but out of respect of the families?

If SL was the owner of Cardiff City I wonder how differently this would play out ?

For all the criticism aimed at SL , some totally justified, he tries to do things in the right way .

 

[East End Old Boy]

39 minutes ago, Major Isewater said:

If SL was the owner of Cardiff City I wonder how differently this would play out ?

For all the criticism aimed at SL , some totally justified, he tries to do things in the right way .

 

Would have used his own plane, so the situation wouldn’t have arisen!

[Super]

Do people really think City would do anything different to what Cardiff have done? Or any other football club. 

[CotswoldRed]

So, he never played for Cardiff, they believe he was never their player, they don't want to pay for him. 

Makes you wonder why all the emotion at the time. 

[Eddie Hitler]

14 minutes ago, Super said:

Do people really think City would do anything different to what Cardiff have done? Or any other football club. 

Indeed. It is a contract, it has gone wrong, it goes to court.

I don't see why Nantes gets a free pass here whilst Cardiff is the recipient of the mud slinging.

For all the claims that he was Cardiff's player he wasn't until all the contract conditions precedent (as noted above by @29AR) had been met.

If Emad Moteb, subsequent to his being photographed in the ground wearing a City shirt on "signing", had died in an accident on his way back to Egypt should we have paid out?

For the younger posters he didn't become our player because he played in a game in Egypt that he had been told not to play so the contract was ripped up.

[Guest]

12 minutes ago, Eddie Hitler said:

Indeed. It is a contract, it has gone wrong, it goes to court.

I don't see why Nantes gets a free pass here whilst Cardiff is the recipient of the mud slinging.

For all the claims that he was Cardiff's player he wasn't until all the contract conditions precedent (as noted above by @29AR) had been met.

If Emad Moteb, subsequent to his being photographed in the ground wearing a City shirt on "signing", had died in an accident on his way back to Egypt should we have paid out?

For the younger posters he didn't become our player because he played in a game in Egypt that he had been told not to play so the contract was ripped up.

If this is governed by UK law, and the issues are as reported from the Cardiff source, from afar I think I'd rather stick my money on Nantes' claim being successful. 

[downendcity]

25 minutes ago, Eddie Hitler said:

Indeed. It is a contract, it has gone wrong, it goes to court.

I don't see why Nantes gets a free pass here whilst Cardiff is the recipient of the mud slinging.

For all the claims that he was Cardiff's player he wasn't until all the contract conditions precedent (as noted above by @29AR) had been met.

If Emad Moteb, subsequent to his being photographed in the ground wearing a City shirt on "signing", had died in an accident on his way back to Egypt should we have paid out?

For the younger posters he didn't become our player because he played in a game in Egypt that he had been told not to play so the contract was ripped up.

The contract issue I've read is that there was a clause included stating that the player had to be registered by a certain date. The reason being that if the deal fell through by that date then it gave  them enough time in the transfer window to tie another player transfer together.

Cardiff's argument seems to be that as the registrations in question were not completed by the date specified,  the contract is void. However, if that were the case why were Cardiff flying the player back to Wales for training with the team? 

@29AR posted 

Essentially it seems - if under UK law -  Cardiff are saying there were what’s called conditions precedent; contract terms which must be fulfilled before a contract can be concluded. They say they weren’t. However, certainly under U.K. law there is case law confirming a contract can be concluded by conduct, even if some terms aren’t complied with. This is a summary of a recent decision - https://www.walkermorris.co.uk/publications/disputes-matter-may-2015/contract-by-conduct-a-cautionary-tale/

I'm no legal expert, but I would have said that Sala flying to Cardiff to start training with his "new" club would be conduct indicative of the contract being concluded ( bar payment of the fee, of course!!!) so it will be interesting to see how this one pans out. 

As I mentioned in previous post, I reckon that clubs involved in transfers with Cardiff will have their solicitors going over the contracts with a fine tooth comb in future.

Edited March 26, 2019 by downendcity

[CityCiderEd]

Forgetting all the legal toing and froing  between the clubs what the hell must Sala's family be thinking of it.......

[Eddie Hitler]

12 minutes ago, 29AR said:

If this is governed by UK law, and the issues are as reported from the Cardiff source, from afar I think I'd rather stick my money on Nantes' claim being successful. 

It's often a percentage rather than a straight win / lose.

I haven't studied it but from the information provided in this thread my guess would be that the contract is deemed to have been 80% complete at the time of his death with no reason to think it wouldn't proceed.

So that would give Nantes £12m rather than £15m and make it worth Cardiff challenging.

I don't see a moral dimension here with Nantes vs Cardiff as long as Sala's family don't lose out by it.

If I was buying a house, price agreed, deposit paid, both parties happy, and it fell down the night before I was due to exchange then I wouldn't exchange.

Contracts are not binding until they actually come into effect.

Edited March 26, 2019 by Eddie Hitler

[Guest]

9 minutes ago, Eddie Hitler said:

It's often a percentage rather than a straight win / lose.

I haven't studied it but from the information provided in this thread my guess would be that the contract is deemed to have been 80% complete at the time of his death with no reason to think it wouldn't proceed.

So that would give Nantes £12m rather than £15m and make it worth Cardiff challenging.

I don't see a moral dimension here with Nantes vs Cardiff as long as Sala's family don't lose out by it.

If I was buying a house, price agreed, deposit paid, both parties happy, and it fell down the night before I was due to exchange then I wouldn't exchange.

Contracts are not binding until they actually come into effect.

But contracts can be concluded by conduct, and such conduct can amount to acceptance that certain terms were not complied with without requiring alterations to the written agreement. There are precedents for that. 

[Eddie Hitler]

14 minutes ago, 29AR said:

But contracts can be concluded by conduct, and such conduct can amount to acceptance that certain terms were not complied with without requiring alterations to the written agreement. There are precedents for that. 

There are.

However, and without wishing to divert the thread, if that was the primary legal basis then Nick Higgs' "watertight" contract to sell the Memorial Ground to Sainsbury's would have gone through.

It didn't because contracts are usually determined in law by their written terms.

[Guest]

9 minutes ago, Eddie Hitler said:

There are.

However, and without wishing to divert the thread, if that was the primary legal basis then Nick Higgs' "watertight" contract to sell the Memorial Ground to Sainsbury's would have gone through.

It didn't because contracts are usually determined in law by their written terms.

Not quite I don't think, because that was a dispute about whether Sainsbury's had acted in accordance with the contract term requiring them to appeal adverse planning decisions.

I would say to be comparable the situation may need to have been Sainsbury's put a spade in the ground but then tried to renege on the agreement because of the adverse planning; did Sainsbury's waive their right to rely on that condition to void the contract etc.

Anyway yes all conjecture, this will likely run for a long time and for now is just an interpretation of the very loose details which have been reported.  

 

[downendcity]

1 hour ago, CityCiderEd said:

Forgetting all the legal toing and froing  between the clubs what the hell must Sala's family be thinking of it.......

Not that money will be uppermost on their minds, but I presume that Sala would have received a percentage of his transfer fee, so if  Cardiff's stance is upheld his estate would get nothing!

[Super]

Seems that the pilot was not qualified to fly at night. Bizarre.

[Son of Fred]

8 minutes ago, Super said:

Seems that the pilot was not qualified to fly at night. Bizarre.

Oh dear...bizarre indeed that if he hadn't taken/passed the appropriate night rating course that he would accept this job..can only assume the pilot that passed this flight over to him believe'd he was in possession of the relevant qualification!....

Edited March 30, 2019 by Robert the bruce

[exAtyeoMax]

11 minutes ago, Robert the bruce said:

Oh dear...bizarre indeed that if he hadn't taken/passed the appropriate night rating course that he would accept this job..can only assume the pilot that passed this flight over to him believe'd he was in possession of the relevant qualification!....

He was colourblind so wouldn’t be able to. According to BBC because it flew at night instead of the morning it was supposed to,  the flight was illegal and so not insured. 

I do wonder who that pilot was and why he passed it over and why mr Ibbotson agreed to fly the plane when he knew he shouldn’t 

[phantom]

2 hours ago, exAtyeoMax said:

....... and why mr Ibbotson agreed to fly the plane when he knew he shouldn’t 

£££££££££

[Red DNA]

2 hours ago, exAtyeoMax said:

He was colourblind so wouldn’t be able to. According to BBC because it flew at night instead of the morning it was supposed to,  the flight was illegal and so not insured. 

I do wonder who that pilot was and why he passed it over and why mr Ibbotson agreed to fly the plane when he knew he shouldn’t 

From what I’ve read it was delayed as the player wanted more time with his old teammates and I’ve seen no mention of another pilot, same pilot- same aircraft just delayed departure?

[ScottishRed]

I wouldn’t expect this to be resolved anytime soon, which will not help the friends and families of the the two men that sadly lost their lives that evening.

Edited March 30, 2019 by ScottishRed
Spelling