Emiliano Sala

[PHILINFRANCE]

14 minutes ago, phantom said:

This really doesn't make sense to me, saying the pilot was ideal then the following sentence does not read correctly? 

I guess @PHILINFRANCEread it the same? 

I am assuming there was some sarcasm in the 'ideal' bit....

[formerly known as ivan]

1 hour ago, Andy082005 said:

Begs the question why you would even get on it if it was that bad?

Guess it’s one of those things where you think the worse and then probably feel stupid for thinking it. Then the next thing on your mind is let’s get on, get there and in a few hours I will be tucked up in bed laughing about how worried I felt

[Davefevs]

5 hours ago, handsofclay said:

Unfortunately, machismo kicks in. With the Munich Air Crash it was stated afterwards that many on board were apprehensive about boarding the plane a third time after two aborted takeoffs in the snow, yet nobody said that they refuse to get on board. Had someone done so there's a good chance others would've followed the lead. Sometimes the bravest thing of all is to be the first to admit that you are too scared to do something and thus refuse to do it.

Similar machismo kicked in with the deaths in plane crashes of music stars Buddy Holly, The Big Bopper and Richie Valens in 1959 and Otis Redding and the Barkays in 1967. In the latter case, they boarded Redding's private aircraft and, according to the only survivor, were apprehensive when the pilot said that the battery was low but hoped there was enough juice in it (in freezing cold weather) to get them from Cleveland, Ohio to Madison, Wisconsin! Indeed, the heating in the plane couldnt be turned on for this reason. Yet, they all boarded without a whimper.

I know it’s very different, but a week before 7/7, I was heading back from meetings in London and had just boarded my train (still a few minutes til it left) at Paddington when the alarms went off and we were all told over the tannoy to evacuate.  Not one of us moved, expecting a false alarm and likelihood of losing your seat.  It was only when the guard came onboard and told us to move that we did.  Within 5 yards of getting off the train a few people said “it will be a false alarm” and now out of the guard’s eye, turned around and got back on the train.  Like sheep we all followed them.  It was a false alarm, but none if us knew that at the time.

[cidered abroad]

I have only flown once in such a small plane, in New Zealand, and was terrified without reason I add.

A tragic loss of life that could easily have been avoided.

Club owners sanctioning a multi million deal for a player, yet allowing said player to travel by the quickest route at probably peanuts compared with value of player and value of player to the club's efforts to stay in Premier League.

The cost to a billionaire owner to hire a decent size plane with a full crew, or a chauffeur driven limousine to Paris and then fly by scheduled air line, is negligible compared to the loss of life and loss to the club.

[cidered abroad]

31 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

I know it’s very different, but a week before 7/7, I was heading back from meetings in London and had just boarded my train (still a few minutes til it left) at Paddington when the alarms went off and we were all told over the tannoy to evacuate.  Not one of us moved, expecting a false alarm and likelihood of losing your seat.  It was only when the guard came onboard and told us to move that we did.  Within 5 yards of getting off the train a few people said “it will be a false alarm” and now out of the guard’s eye, turned around and got back on the train.  Like sheep we all followed them.  It was a false alarm, but none if us knew that at the time.

I learnt soon after I joined a packaging company at the age of 23, that if the alarms sound, you get the hell out of the factory without even thinking about it. 

Look silly if it's false alarm? No, just plain common sense.

What if the Emergency Services decided not to show up because a false alarm had occurred previously at the same company? Everybody gets fried alive!

[phantom]

8 minutes ago, cidered abroad said:

Club owners sanctioning a multi million deal for a player, yet allowing said player to travel by the quickest route at probably peanuts compared with value of player and value of player to the club's efforts to stay in Premier League.

But we are all assuming this isn't the norm? 

[JoeAman08]

1 minute ago, phantom said:

But we are all assuming this isn't the norm? 

Was going to post similar. This could have been done 100s of times before. Hell we have/had French based players that could have travelled like this. Though think his point remains why risk it on what we would perceive as lesser aircraft? It is a good question one that will be raised but after there are more answers

[AppyDAZE]

1 hour ago, YorkshireSection said:

Im stunned and disgusted, with all the money in football, the guy gets put on a plane that looks like its falling apart!

Heard the Cardiff chairman on Jeremy Vine's programme earlier say Cardiff offered him a commercial flight back to the UK but he declined.

Nothing to do with Cardiff City what has happened.

Edited January 23, 2019 by AppyDAZE

[bend it like brian]

18m transfer........45.00 flight wow 

[WolfOfWestStreet]

How many flights like this go over the channel every year and how many end up in the ocean? Certainly the only time I can remember and no press likening it to another recent tragedy.

Also how do you know the plane was at fault? I have significant experience of watching repeats of "air crash investigation" and almost always the pilots have made a mistake. 

Pilot could have had a heart attack, stroke or was unconscious. To early to assume the plane was a pile of shit. 

[spudski]

Not sure there is ever a right time to ask about this...but I've never been able to find an answer.

What happens with the contract signed?

Do Clubs insure against such a thing?

Is there a clause in the contract?

Do relatives receive the contract total?

Guess it's a personal contact that are all different and agreed between agent, Club and player. Everyone being different.

I guess it would also come into FFP rules as well.

Complicated...

Sorry if this seems inappropriate...but when is there a right time?

[BS4 on Tour...]

Edit...incorrect

Edited January 23, 2019 by BS4 on Tour...

[Selred]

1 hour ago, bend it like brian said:

18m transfer........45.00 flight wow 

The flight wouldn’t of been £45

[Agard Days Night]

10 minutes ago, spudski said:

Not sure there is ever a right time to ask about this...but I've never been able to find an answer.

What happens with the contract signed?

Do Clubs insure against such a thing?

Is there a clause in the contract?

Do relatives receive the contract total?

Guess it's a personal contact that are all different and agreed between agent, Club and player. Everyone being different.

I guess it would also come into FFP rules as well.

Complicated...

Sorry if this seems inappropriate...but when is there a right time?

Timely and important questions. 

[Up The City!]

Something just doesn't make sense with all of this.

[Up The City!]

14 minutes ago, spudski said:

Not sure there is ever a right time to ask about this...but I've never been able to find an answer.

What happens with the contract signed?

Do Clubs insure against such a thing?

Is there a clause in the contract?

Do relatives receive the contract total?

Guess it's a personal contact that are all different and agreed between agent, Club and player. Everyone being different.

I guess it would also come into FFP rules as well.

Complicated...

Sorry if this seems inappropriate...but when is there a right time?

I'm glad you asked this, was gonna ask it myself but didn't know if I should. 

Would Cardiff be able to claim the transfer fee back from insurance? 

[spudski]

1 minute ago, Up The City! said:

I'm glad you asked this, was gonna ask it myself but didn't know if I should. 

Would Cardiff be able to claim the transfer fee back from insurance? 

Who knows...I guess each contract is negotiated and individual.

I've asked a couple agents, but yet to hear back.

[BCFC11]

1 hour ago, AppyDAZE said:

Heard the Cardiff chairman on Jeremy Vine's programme earlier say Cardiff offered him a commercial flight back to the UK but he declined.

Nothing to do with Cardiff City what has happened.

So if reports are true (no idea if they are) and he told a team mate from Nantes about how he feared for his safety due to a bumpy flight whilst on the way back from Cardiff at the weekend, then why oh why would you get back on the same plane again, especially after so many attempts to take off? I’ve no clue how true these said reports are but I’d of took one look at that plane and said ‘no ******* chance’ even if it meant being late for first training session, and no doubt a rollocking from Colin.

[Davefevs]

19 minutes ago, spudski said:

Not sure there is ever a right time to ask about this...but I've never been able to find an answer.

What happens with the contract signed?

Do Clubs insure against such a thing?

Is there a clause in the contract?

Do relatives receive the contract total?

Guess it's a personal contact that are all different and agreed between agent, Club and player. Everyone being different.

I guess it would also come into FFP rules as well.

Complicated...

Sorry if this seems inappropriate...but when is there a right time?

Wondering the same.  Not a nice subject.

Deal has been signed I assume, so Nantes due Transfer Fee, etc.

Cardiff you would expect to have a key-person type policy to cover for this, but covering his value as an asset.  How you value that is not something i’ve Got a clue about. 

Sala’s dependent could be due death in service payments, so expect Cardiff to insure against that too.

Could be a compensation claim against the aviation company under aviation law.

Who knows, murky old subject.

 

[RumRed]

27 minutes ago, spudski said:

Who knows...I guess each contract is negotiated and individual.

I've asked a couple agents, but yet to hear back.

Wrong time for this question, but I’ll answer it anyway, most companies take out a ‘relevant life’ policy (effectively death in service) on individuals to provide financial compensation for their families, or in the case of Walmart (used to do before they were sued for it) as ‘dead peasant’ policies where the company takes the cash. ‘Key man’, is what they take out to cover recruitment costs and the implied value of the lost employee.

Grim, but that’s what should happen.

Edited January 23, 2019 by RumRed

[Silvio Dante]

29 minutes ago, spudski said:

Not sure there is ever a right time to ask about this...but I've never been able to find an answer.

What happens with the contract signed?

The contract was signed between his prior team and Cardiff. Irrespective of the tragic event that’s happened, he’s Cardiff’s player so they’re liable for both the full fee and the wages - unless the player was guilty of gross negligence 

 

Do Clubs insure against such a thing?

Ish. All players will be insured against “loss” to the club, but there will be “due care” clauses. The best example I can give here is that footballers aren’t allowed to ride motorcycles in view of the prospect of injury, so any insurer would also not be happy and refuse to pay if they thought due care hadn’t occurred to cause the “loss”

Is there a clause in the contract?

 

Do relatives receive the contract total?

These kind of both go together. The relatives would get “death in service”, which in view of the short contract length would only be akin to the value of the wage over the contract (and in normal circumstances would be covered by insurance), but in the case of negligence which would invalidate the insurance, this wouldn’t happen.

 

Guess it's a personal contact that are all different and agreed between agent, Club and player. Everyone being different.

I guess it would also come into FFP rules as well.

Complicated...

Sorry if this seems inappropriate...but when is there a right time?

Spud - answered to the best of my knowledge above. Inherently, he’s Cardiffs player and would be insured against “loss”, which would cover both the clubs losses and wages to the family over the contract course. However, for that insurance to be valid, no “negligence” on the players (or on the players representatives part) to cause the loss can have occurred.

My gut feel - there is a case that the representing agent has been negligent by proxy (as the aircraft may not have been appropriate for the “asset” and conditions). Therefore Cardiff’s insurers may not pay and they may have to pursue the agent (if the report that it’s his aircraft is correct) to obtain compensation akin to the insured level.

None of this removes this being a tragedy, but as you say, never a good time to ask or answer 

[spudski]

2 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

Spud - answered to the best of my knowledge above. Inherently, he’s Cardiffs player and would be insured against “loss”, which would cover both the clubs losses and wages to the family over the contract course. However, for that insurance to be valid, no “negligence” on the players (or on the players representatives part) to cause the loss can have occurred.

My gut feel - there is a case that the representing agent has been negligent by proxy (as the aircraft may not have been appropriate for the “asset” and conditions). Therefore Cardiff’s insurers may not pay and they may have to pursue the agent (if the report that it’s his aircraft is correct) to obtain compensation akin to the insured level.

None of this removes this being a tragedy, but as you say, never a good time to ask or answer 

As you say...never a good time to ask...but others will be doing the same behind the scenes so to speak.

I think a lot more will come out of this....especially the ownership and registration of the plane, as their seem to be conflicting reports.

For what it's worth...no pilot is going to fly a plane if it's not airworthy.

[Davefevs]

13 minutes ago, RumRed said:

Wrong time for this question, but I’ll answer it anyway, most companies take out a ‘relevant life’ policy (effectively death in service) on individuals to provide financial compensation for their families, or in the case of Walmart (used to do before they were sued for it) as ‘dead peasant’ policies where the company takes the cash. ‘Key man’, is what they take out to cover recruitment costs and the implied value of the lost employee.

Grim, but that’s what should happen.

Yes, I have a relevant life policy set up on my business.

[Silvio Dante]

1 minute ago, spudski said:

As you say...never a good time to ask...but others will be doing the same behind the scenes so to speak.

I think a lot more will come out of this....especially the ownership and registration of the plane, as their seem to be conflicting reports.

For what it's worth...no pilot is going to fly a plane if it's not airworthy.

Agree.

I think the question here, and the one that’s been bugging me since yesterday, is that if you wouldn’t fly a £30m Renoir/Van Gogh etc on that plane in those conditions (as nobody would), why would you fly a £30m (when wages included) asset? (Or, indeed, anyone).

This is why I see this going a (protracted) negligence route - as long as they look after the family while that’s being sorted, that’s the important thing

[BCFC11]

5 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

Spud - answered to the best of my knowledge above. Inherently, he’s Cardiffs player and would be insured against “loss”, which would cover both the clubs losses and wages to the family over the contract course. However, for that insurance to be valid, no “negligence” on the players (or on the players representatives part) to cause the loss can have occurred.

My gut feel - there is a case that the representing agent has been negligent by proxy (as the aircraft may not have been appropriate for the “asset” and conditions). Therefore Cardiff’s insurers may not pay and they may have to pursue the agent (if the report that it’s his aircraft is correct) to obtain compensation akin to the insured level.

None of this removes this being a tragedy, but as you say, never a good time to ask or answer 

I’m fairly certain it’ll be down to whoever is in control of the vehicle be it a car/plane or whatever, if there is any blame to attach, not saying it’s the pilots fault here btw, in most businesses nowadays it is down to whoever is operating a machine to carry out the correct checks and inform the relevant persons of any defects etc, so don’t think the blame can be laid at the agents door.

[Davefevs]

3 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

Agree.

I think the question here, and the one that’s been bugging me since yesterday, is that if you wouldn’t fly a £30m Renoir/Van Gogh etc on that plane in those conditions (as nobody would), why would you fly a £30m (when wages included) asset? (Or, indeed, anyone).

This is why I see this going a (protracted) negligence route - as long as they look after the family while that’s being sorted, that’s the important thing

Mrs F who hates footie, said exactly that.

[Silvio Dante]

4 minutes ago, BCFC11 said:

I’m fairly certain it’ll be down to whoever is in control of the vehicle be it a car/plane or whatever, if there is any blame to attach, not saying it’s the pilots fault here btw, in most businesses nowadays it is down to whoever is operating a machine to carry out the correct checks and inform the relevant persons of any defects etc, so don’t think the blame can be laid at the agents door.

Oh indeed - there is no way I would expect the agent to check the plane. It’s more a matter of legality. If he’s the representative who has to ensure the player is delivered and is found to have tried to do that via a sub standard means legally he would be at fault. Not saying morally right, but legally, he’d be gone after.

Either way, I think I’ve said enough about legality and the liability here and the important thing is Sala so I’ll call a halt to that aspect of it here 

Edited January 23, 2019 by Silvio Dante

[bcfcredandwhite]

I keep checking into this thread - and the news apps in the unlikely hope of some good news but to no avail and the longer this goes on the less likely it is that there is a positive outcome. 

Tragic. 

[PHILINFRANCE]

3 hours ago, AppyDAZE said:

Heard the Cardiff chairman on Jeremy Vine's programme earlier say Cardiff offered him a commercial flight back to the UK but he declined.

Nothing to do with Cardiff City what has happened.

Really?

I said in an earlier post that the French press understood the plane was owned by his club, Cardiff City, and whilst they might not have been directly responsible for the flight, it seems it would be disingenuous at best for them to claim they had no knowledge of Sala's travel arrangements: likewise, as has now come to light, Mark McKay, Sala's agent.

Football agent Mark McKay has confirmed he arranged the flight that was carrying striker Emiliano Sala to Cardiff, but has denied reports he or his family owned the plane.

Mr Mckay added that the plane was "not owned in any way or part by either myself or any member of my family".

But!

N264DB is reported as being owned by Willie McKay ( ex Doncaster Rovers Football Agent )
Mark McKay is the son of Willie McKay, Mark is the football agent who brokered the Emiliano Sala transfer deal.

Willie McKay has twin sons Paul and Jack who are Cardiff FC footballers, so I think there is a link between Willie McKay & Cardiff FC that some are trying to cover up?

It looks like that a link with 2 of his son's being fellow Cardiff FC footballers & his other son being the Football Agent for Sala puts a few pointers towards the whole deal was very much arranged within the McKay Stable.

If, as is quite possible, the plane - there is some suggestion that, apparently, it was first put in to service in 1984! - was owned by a McKay owned company or a trust, then McKay's statement might be factually correct, but.... 

1 hour ago, Silvio Dante said:

Inherently, he’s Cardiffs player and would be insured against “loss”, which would cover both the clubs losses and wages to the family over the contract course. However, for that insurance to be valid, no “negligence” on the players (or on the players representatives part) to cause the loss can have occurred. Not necessarily, in fact most unlikely. Indeed, the whole point of this type of insurance policy is to insure against 'death or injury', due to accident or negligence, e.g. a simple (accidental, thus negligent) trip resulting in serious injury. Recklessness, of course, is a different matter, although I would be surprised if any policy exclusions, even relating to flying as a non fee-paying passenger in a non-commercial plane, would apply in this instance.  

My gut feel - there is a case that the representing agent has been negligent by proxy (as the aircraft may not have been appropriate for the “asset” and conditions). Not so much the plane, necessarily, but quite possibly the pilot. Therefore Cardiff’s insurers may not pay and they may have to pursue the agent (if the report that it’s his aircraft is correct) to obtain compensation akin to the insured level. 

 

[Mr Popodopolous]

Saw this on Twitter in last 10 mins. Seems to be a lot of talk about it- any truth or??

Flares basically seen on an island that is (aside from birds and wildlife) uninhabited, an island near Alderney. I've honestly no idea, but seems to be a lot of talk about it on Twitter.

Police have done a half hour aerial search of the island, but nothing on foot yet apparently...Island called Burhou. World Heritage site.

Edited January 23, 2019 by Mr Popodopolous