Marcus Rashford.... how calm

[Talk Of The Town]

20 minutes ago, Sixtyseconds said:

Jump.

Turn.

And still keep your arms by your side.

I have tried this several times this morning on the drive way.

Doesn't work..

Or grow a pair of balls, stand up straight take it on the mush and qualify to the next round. The player got what he deserved for being so gutless 

[InCyder]

Fair play to Rashford, that took some balls. I have no allegiance to any other team but I was proper nervous for him as he stepped up. Probably more nervous than he was given the way he dispatched it. 

Saw a lot of people over Social Media unhappy about Man Utd going through, fans of numerous teams (not just Liverpool, who I can understand) piping up to dish out abuse. I couldn't understand any English person praying for Rashford to miss that. Especially with the other outcome being Neymar parading himself around despite having to watch it all from the sidelines.

Even though it's Man Utd, it's incredibly difficult to dislike Solskjaer. What a job he is doing. 

[Cowshed]

5 minutes ago, Bobby Bollax said:

Or grow a pair of balls, stand up straight take it on the mush and qualify to the next round. The player got what he deserved for being so gutless 

 If he did as you said he would not have blocked the ball at all. The player would have not been attempting to block the ball. The player would have been hiding. Doing the minimum. That is gutless.

 

[Talk Of The Town]

5 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

 If he did as you said he would not have blocked the ball at all. The player would have not been attempting to block the ball. The player would have been hiding. Doing the minimum. That is gutless.

 

Don’t turn your back innit 

[Cowshed]

1 minute ago, Bobby Bollax said:

Don’t turn your back innit 

Some of the finest defenders in the World turn their backs. John Terry did. One of the PSG players dives across trying to  block the ball turning his back. Gutless? No. Gutless is not trying to block the ball innit?

But a being point made is how do you coordinate your body actions to not use your arms when jumping? Break it down and explain how you would achieve that.

[SedRA]

27 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

Some of the finest defenders in the World turn their backs. John Terry did. One of the PSG players dives across trying to  block the ball turning his back. Gutless? No. Gutless is not trying to block the ball innit?

But a being point made is how do you coordinate your body actions to not use your arms when jumping? Break it down and explain how you would achieve that.

Whilst I understand the argument that you can’t jump with your arms down I can also see the argument that he wasn’t using them in a natural way for a jump ie. was making himself bigger as well as using them to jump. 

This is the ‘intentionality’ of the handball as interpreted by referees. They consider making yourself bigger or raising your hand to protect your body or face (as in the picture below) as intentional handball as you have increased the likelihood of it hitting your hand even if it’s not a literal movement towards the ball. Also turning your back is not an excuse as you abdicate responsibility for where the ball hits. 

 

[Cowshed]

24 minutes ago, RedSA said:

Whilst I understand the argument that you can’t jump with your arms down I can also see the argument that he wasn’t using them in a natural way for a jump ie. was making himself bigger as well as using them to jump. 

This is the ‘intentionality’ of the handball as interpreted by referees. They consider making yourself bigger or raising your hand to protect your body or face (as in the picture below) as intentional handball as you have increased the likelihood of it hitting your hand even if it’s not a literal movement towards the ball. Also turning your back is not an excuse as you abdicate responsibility for where the ball hits. 

 

 

You are applying with respect applying an interpretation that is not within the rules.  

But moving along with the logic the referee would have to consider organismal (don't laugh) constraints. The first constraint is physical - How do you jump while using your arms? Then cognitive/perceptual. And all those constraints for the player occur in a second/millisecond. 

Nobody but the player can truly know in this instance if the act is deliberate. And this is what the rules state, it has to be deliberate.

 

[bcfctim]

1 hour ago, Sixtyseconds said:

Jump.

Turn.

And still keep your arms by your side.

I have tried this several times this morning on the drive way.

Doesn't work..

I'm sure your neighbours enjoyed this morning

[downendcity]

1 hour ago, Sixtyseconds said:

Jump.

Turn.

And still keep your arms by your side.

I have tried this several times this morning on the drive way.

Doesn't work..

and you're now on the way to A & E.

[downendcity]

5 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

 

You are applying with respect applying an interpretation that is not within the rules.  

But moving along with the logic the referee would have to consider organismal (don't laugh) constraints. The first constraint is physical - How do you jump while using your arms? Then cognitive/perceptual. And all those constraints for the player occur in a second/millisecond. 

Nobody but the player can truly know in this instance if the act is deliberate. And this is what the rules state, it has to be deliberate.

 

As most refs seem incapable/unable to see when an attacker is having his short pulled off at a corner, there's bu99er all chance of them working all that out!

[SedRA]

9 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

 

You are applying with respect applying an interpretation that is not within the rules.  

But moving along with the logic the referee would have to consider organismal (don't laugh) constraints. The first constraint is physical - How do you jump while using your arms? Then cognitive/perceptual. And all those constraints for the player occur in a second/millisecond. 

Nobody but the player can truly know in this instance if the act is deliberate. And this is what the rules state, it has to be deliberate.

 

Sure, I'm just explaining the logic behind how the referees are interpreting the term 'deliberate' which makes them all agree that in this instance it is a penalty. 

It seems to be more a debate on the semantics of the term than applied logic in their eyes. 

[Cowshed]

3 minutes ago, RedSA said:

Sure, I'm just explaining the logic behind how the referees are interpreting the term 'deliberate' which makes them all agree that in this instance it is a penalty. 

It seems to be more a debate on the semantics of the term than applied logic in their eyes. 

And I would wholly agree. Logic should be used. Arms are used to propel a player upwards. Earlier the word natural was used, its unnatural to not use your arms when jumping. There appears to be an expectation that players have to tuck their arms in like wearing a straight-jacket … Its a nonsense on a physical level.

[Robbored]

2 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

Arms are used to propel a player upwards. Earlier the word natural was used, its unnatural to not use your arms when jumping. There appears to be an expectation that players have to tuck their arms in like wearing a straight-jacket … Its a nonsense on a physical level.

Despite being delighted that Man Utd won the match Rio Ferdinand said exactly that post match. I don’t suppose he’d have lost any sleep over it tho...........

[And Its Smith]

That’s four out of four refs now who all agree it was a penalty 

[WECANDO]

12 hours ago, cidered abroad said:

I second  all of your post, especially the first sentence. For a club with so many injuries, that is a fantastic result for them. 

 

 

12 hours ago, Maesknoll Red said:

I deliberately didn’t comment on anything other than the penalty taker, he had nothing to do with the decision, but still showed nerve well beyond his years.

Taking it on, just what has OGS done to that team, a Manager with limited experience and a failed venture in the Prem, has completely turned the fortunes of Man U around.  And that, after taking over a multi trophy winner, who failed miserably.  No matter what your opinion of Man U, it’s an amazing story.

Quite simple. Changed the club from being a miserable place to work to a happy place. He has backed the players, looked to put his arm round them rather than ridicule some in public. Mourinio was a dour bloke with a pretty expressionless face whereas OGS has a bright face. He smiles a lot and is likeable. That passes onto his players. Look at the difference in Shaw, Rashford etc.. Also not scared to put the youngsters in. He also brought back some ex Utd players/coaches. OGS has put a lot of interest back into the top league.

[WhistleHappy]

Anyone know if Neymar has been on the blower to his mate Holloway about this yet?   

[downendcity]

34 minutes ago, RedSA said:

Sure, I'm just explaining the logic behind how the referees are interpreting the term 'deliberate' which makes them all agree that in this instance it is a penalty. 

It seems to be more a debate on the semantics of the term than applied logic in their eyes. 

The deliberate handball is an almost impossible one to determine, as only the player concerned will know his intention, although some incidents are pretty clear, e.g. Suarez at the 2010 World Cup. The example I always think of is this:

Imagine at a corner the defender goes up for a header on the edge of the 6 yard, together with the keeper and a couple of attackers, is knocked backwards and is flat out on the goal line with his back to play. As he is getting back up and still on his hands, an attacker shoots and the shot hits the defenders arm, while he is still on the line and with his back to play. The ball rebounds into play and is cleared. 

The ball would have crossed the line had it not hit the defenders arm, so if it was a City attack I'm pretty sure we would all shout for a penalty, because a goal was prevented only by the "handball". However, the minute you introduce intent, i.e. was it deliberate,  then it cannot be a goal, as the defender was unaware of play behind him, and was getting up from the ground so the ball hitting his arm was completely accidental. 

 

 

[Cowshed]

16 minutes ago, RedDave said:

That’s four out of four refs now who all agree it was a penalty 

https://wdef.com/2019/03/07/manchester-united-vs-psg-penalty-world-cup-referee-breaks-down-controversial-var-handball-call/

Here is another one. 

He added that what’s key is Kimpembe’s arm is away from his body. Had it been lined up with his body vertically, it all would have been avoided.  

Yes there is a problem, of course it would be avoided as the player would be virtually incapable of jumping that high. It displays a lack of knowledge of A/ Physical mechanics B/Playing the game.

[cidered abroad]

22 minutes ago, WECANDO said:

 

Quite simple. Changed the club from being a miserable place to work to a happy place. He has backed the players, looked to put his arm round them rather than ridicule some in public. Mourinio was a dour bloke with a pretty expressionless face whereas OGS has a bright face. He smiles a lot and is likeable. That passes onto his players. Look at the difference in Shaw, Rashford etc.. Also not scared to put the youngsters in. He also brought back some ex Utd players/coaches. OGS has put a lot of interest back into the top league.

You've hit the nail plumb on the head.

OGS is not afraid to play the young and inexperienced, even if he was maybe forced so to do.

Could we, as a club that is trying hard to produce note of "Our Own", take more risks with our team selection? Could we start the games with youngsters rather than small cameos at the end? Would it have seriously altered our league position? Improved it for instance if Semenyo was banging the goals in or worsened it because we played O'Leary all season?

Fortune favours the brave thinkers and decision makers? It certainly gave Man U another notable achievement last night. 

PS. This is not a criticism of anyone at City, rather some thoughts on what could be if we, as a club, were a bit more adventuresome.

[Super]

28 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

https://wdef.com/2019/03/07/manchester-united-vs-psg-penalty-world-cup-referee-breaks-down-controversial-var-handball-call/

Here is another one. 

He added that what’s key is Kimpembe’s arm is away from his body. Had it been lined up with his body vertically, it all would have been avoided.  

Yes there is a problem, of course it would be avoided as the player would be virtually incapable of jumping that high. It displays a lack of knowledge of A/ Physical mechanics B/Playing the game.

But that can't be classed as deliberate.

[Mr Popodopolous]

I have no love for Man Utd at all but always liked Solskjaer.

What he has done there...wow. Full credit, deserves the job for sure. Especially their result last night with 9-10 players missing.

As for the CL, it's not very patriotic of me but I hope Ajax win it- the way they bring youth through, their heritage- brilliant to see them back even if only fleetingly.

[Lrrr]

37 minutes ago, WECANDO said:

 

Quite simple. Changed the club from being a miserable place to work to a happy place. He has backed the players, looked to put his arm round them rather than ridicule some in public. Mourinio was a dour bloke with a pretty expressionless face whereas OGS has a bright face. He smiles a lot and is likeable. That passes onto his players. Look at the difference in Shaw, Rashford etc.. Also not scared to put the youngsters in. He also brought back some ex Utd players/coaches. OGS has put a lot of interest back into the top league.

His tactics have also regularly been very good

[ChippenhamRed]

Handballs are given far too readily now.  Too often it seems the defender's only failing is commiting the appalling crime of owning arms.

Trying jumping up as high as you can without your arms moving out from your body.  You can do it, but it's entirely unnatural and probably limits how high you can jump.  A defender should be confident that he can allow his body to move in a natural manner when attempting to block the ball without being penalised for handball.  There should be clear evidence that the hand has been deliberately moved towards the ball in an attempt to stop it, for a handball to be given.  Simply having your arms "away from your body" should not be justification for a penalty to be given if the movement was natural.  In other words, a defender should not have to actively seek to move their arms behind their body in an unnatural way.  If the law is currently suggesting they should, it should be changed.  It's completely ridiculous how a ball can be smashed into a defenders arm at point blank range and a penalty given.

....unless it's a Leeds defender on Saturday afternoon.

[Mr Popodopolous]

2 minutes ago, hodge said:

His tactics have also regularly been very good

They have...absolutely.

Have certain sides played into their hands a little though? E.g. I think if PSG though they can be vulnerable defensively had exercised a little more caution at key times, they don't lose 3-1. However he has won the tactical battles since he joined, no doubt.

[Super]

1 minute ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

They have...absolutely.

Have certain sides played into their hands a little though? E.g. I think if PSG though they can be vulnerable defensively had exercised a little more caution at key times, they don't lose 3-1. However he has won the tactical battles since he joined, no doubt.

Last night was more down to luck, The first two goals were gifts from PSG having said that they did defend well and probably earnt the luck they got.

[Rob k]

What this thread does show for me is that there is no place in football  for VAR -  we all disagree on last nights decision so how can the ref make a decision.

Just scrap it now before this nonesense goes any further and let us crack on arguing up the pub!!

[Mr Popodopolous]

31 minutes ago, Rob k said:

What this thread does show for me is that there is no place in football  for VAR -  we all disagree on last nights decision so how can the ref make a decision.

Just scrap it now before this nonesense goes any further and let us crack on arguing up the pub!!

Wasn't there a rule change though that changed the deliberate handball for penalty rule to handball of any kind?

On VAR, I have sympathy with the view, with the exception of goal-line technology- but then again such stakes, financially and otherwise in football these days it maybe pre-empting clubs taking lawsuits if robbed. From a football purism POV no, from a modern reality- harder to gauge I think.

My bad- rule change doesn't kick in until next season. However kick in it seemingly will.

https://www.sport24.co.za/Soccer/International/ifab-redefine-handball-rule-among-other-law-changes-20190305

[Out of his pie crust]

43 minutes ago, Rob k said:

What this thread does show for me is that there is no place in football  for VAR -  we all disagree on last nights decision so how can the ref make a decision.

Just scrap it now before this nonesense goes any further and let us crack on arguing up the pub!!

I tend to agree....things like goalline tech where it’s very black and white and instant then yeah (and you could probably extend to offside with a bit more tech wizardry) but where there’s some judgement call then I’d prefer the refs to just make a call and we’ll live with it....mainly for the flow of the game

[Bristol Oil Services]

I think the defender gives the ref "a decision to make." And the ref, given this, makes a decision. And not the one the defender would make.

Don't give referees decision to make! Particularly, for defenders, ones involving the ball hitting your arm/elbow when you are in your own box.

 

[CotswoldRed]

5 hours ago, Show Me The Money! said:

Have you never played football before then?

Its not relevant. I'm saying players don't view the game based in the rulebook. Most of the time they don't know what the rules are and make complete arses of themselves when discussing incidents with referees on BT and Sky etc.