Lee Johnson - Judgement and Tactics

[The Red Planet]

Even during the lengthy run of defeats last season, I never joined the LJ Out brigade because I thought we should give him a chance to develop as a coach and I knew that a) he is backed 100% by SL and b) he is a former player and a decent man.

After our recent great run of wins, it looked like I had backed a winner.

I am fully aware that we should never judge our Head Coach on just one game BUT - what was he thinking of by starting rookie Semenyo for his home debut against hugely physical, hard-nosed  Leeds ? 

Playing out of his normal position and against the most pressing side in this league. Madness.

No surprise that it was his mistake that left Ayling to make a lovely pass for Bamford to score.

Don't get me wrong, this young player has a great future and having seen the highlights of his sub performance away at Preston - he is a star for the future. 

So, I think that tactically LJ got most of it wrong v Leeds. 

I never ever boo City but I can understand that after a 1st half when we were totally dominated by Leeds who - will surely be in  the PL next season. 

 

 

[nickolas]

Biggest mistake however was Wright at RB for me. 

Absolutely zero attacking down our right hand side. COD given zero support therefore, so then gets subbed. 

Negative selection in my book. Will be interesting to see if Hunt gets a game tomorrow bearing in mind its ‘only’ Ipswich. 

Im guessing Hunt starts as LJ can afford to be less cautious. 

[BS4 on Tour...]

25 minutes ago, The Red Planet said:

Even during the lengthy run of defeats last season, I never joined the LJ Out brigade....

....I am fully aware that we should never judge our Head Coach on just one game BUT - what was he thinking of by starting rookie Semenyo for his home debut against hugely physical, hard-nosed  Leeds ? 

Playing out of his normal position and against the most pressing side in this league. Madness.

The record run of defeats was in the 2016/2017 season.....but last season’s run after new year wasn’t too clever either! But I totally agree with you, starting Semenyo against Leeds, then playing him out wide, was just ridiculous....why didn’t he think to start him tomorrow night instead vs the Tractor Boys? Less pressure on the lad.....

 

[cidered abroad]

3 minutes ago, nickolas said:

Biggest mistake however was Wright at RB for me. 

Absolutely zero attacking down our right hand side. COD given zero support therefore, so then gets subbed. 

Negative selection in my book. Will be interesting to see if Hunt gets a game tomorrow bearing in mind its ‘only’ Ipswich. 

Im guessing Hunt starts as LJ can afford to be less cautious. 

Which is worst? A solid defensive Bailey Wright at right back or a very young Semenyo with only two brief sub appearances?

The first is a sensible choice against a top side.

The second is reckless with regard to both Semenyo's career and the team performance.

Yet another clanger by St Johnson. How long does he need before he stops making basic errors of management to the detriment of our club.

[cidered abroad]

4 minutes ago, BS4 on Tour... said:

The record run of defeats was in the 2016/2017 season.....but last season’s run after new year wasn’t too clever either! But I totally agree with you, starting Semenyo against Leeds, then playing him out wide, was just ridiculous....why didn’t he think to start him tomorrow night instead vs the Tractor Boys? Less pressure on the lad.....

 

And before the fifteen games undefeated, we had a run of twelve games when we got 11 points out if 36 available.

[RobintheRed Red]

47 minutes ago, cidered abroad said:

Which is worst? A solid defensive Bailey Wright at right back or a very young Semenyo with only two brief sub appearances?

The first is a sensible choice against a top side.

The second is reckless with regard to both Semenyo's career and the team performance.

Yet another clanger by St Johnson. How long does he need before he stops making basic errors of management to the detriment of our club.

But hes still learning

[ScottishRed]

16 minutes ago, RobintheRed Red said:

But hes still learning

[BS4 on Tour...]

15 minutes ago, RobintheRed Red said:

But hes still learning

He sure is! Despite having been a manager for more games than Alex Neil, Ole Gunnar Solksjaer, David Wagner, Nuno Espírito Santo, Marco Silva etc etc.....like the players he signs, he’s ‘still developing, one for the future...’

[RobintheRed Red]

7 minutes ago, BS4 on Tour... said:

He sure is! Despite having been a manager for more games than Alex Neil, Ole Gunnar Solksjaer, David Wagner, Nuno Espírito Santo, Marco Silva etc etc.....like the players he signs, he’s ‘still developing, one for the future...’

:laugh:

[Meh]

Matt Taylor does really well in his sub appearances but never starts the next game - why different with a young, inexperienced player - other than of course this was the messiah that saved us a huge striker outlay in January

[Major Isewater]

7 hours ago, RobintheRed Red said:

But hes still learning

He’s only 37 don’t you know ? 

35 minutes ago, JonDolman said:

In hindsight we shouldn't have gone toe to toe with Leeds. We should have played like the away side.

Wright would have been fine in a defensive counter attacking set up, though I agree with others he isn't a right back.

Weimann should have played and we should have defended and hit them on the break.

That would have given us more of a chance imo, even if it's not what the fans want to see from a home side.

Playing Semenyo was a mistake, but having played so well against Preston it was understandable that LJ started him. 

... in a different position.

[old_eastender]

I don't have a problem with LJs decision to play Semenyo, but that should have been up front alongside Fammy - the role he played so well in the sub appearance at PNE - to start him left wing was stupidity and led to the Leeds goal.

LJ repeatedly picking BW at RB is frustrating. I like BW, he is a decent CENTRE BACK, and good backup for Webster & Kallas, but he should not be starting at RB if Pisano or Hunt are fit. Both of them are better defensively at RB and much better offensively than BW. The Norwich game was one , where having gone in at HT leading but with BW being skinned repeatedly at RB, the only obvious change was to take BW off for Pisano, but LJ didn't and it cost us.

Judgement for LJ will come after 46 games played; Fall away (like last season) and finish lower than 10th then get rid. Finish 7th-10th give him another season to see if we can make the improvement to finish in the top 6. Finish in the top 6, then much eating of humble pie needed and LJ will finally deserve the accolades many have been prematurely giving him. 

[Johnny Musicworks]

It’s a bit of a ‘stick or twist’ scenario for LJ at the moment. Does he stick with the lone striker Fam or give him some help at the risk of being overloaded by the opposition in midfield.

Saturday’s line-up with Semenyo seemed to suggest that he was going to twist but I felt that he fudged the issue by playing the lad more wide in the role that Newport did and Fam once again had little support and it also cost us the goal. Had he been playing alongside Fam then it wouldn’t have been his job to track Ayling. Just as with Callum in recent games if the wide man doesn’t do his defensive duties then we concede.

With the amount of teams now in play for the play-offs my feeling is any team that really goes for it could snatch it. So either play a 2nd striker AS or MT alongside Fam with Elliasson and replace Callum and Pato or Weimann  and Morrell for Semenyo and Callum to make us more solid. That is assuming Pack/Brownhill play as per usual. Just don’t give a young striker defensive duties that far more experienced players are already failing at.

[Olé]

9 hours ago, BS4 on Tour... said:

Despite having been a manager for more games than Alex Neil, Ole Gunnar Solksjaer, David Wagner, Nuno Espírito Santo, Marco Silva etc etc.....like the players he signs, he’s ‘still developing, one for the future...’

I don't necessarily disagree with the spirit of the point you're making (how long LJ is still afforded mistakes as "development"), but those specific comparisons are ridiculous - and you know it! In every case the managers you chose literally only have a handful of games difference in their experience relative to LJ (all c. 300) - it's hardly a meaningful difference, yet all of them have managed in the Premiership, and 3 of them in the Champions League. Their backgrounds could not be more different. 

Nuno had unprecedented success with a small club in Portugal (multiple cup finals and Europe), coached in the Champions League with both Porto and Valencia, and won multiple La Liga manager of the month awards. Marco Silva took a lower division club up into the top flight and then into Europe, and then coached Sporting Lisbon and Olympiakos. Alex Neil won consecutive top flight promotions with Hamilton and Norwich. Wagner spent 4 years with one of the biggest clubs in the world.

By comparison Lee Johnson came to us with no credible success or experience of success, and also lacks a variety of experiences the names you've mentioned above have acquired across different clubs and competitions. There is literally nothing to compare: Oldham and Barnsley are trivial relative to CV's of the people above. And that is the fairer comparison of the main flaw in LJ - he has plenty of ideas but they're all tested "on the go" as he's in an echo chamber without experience around him.

Most of those other names, by reaching the top flight, major domestic clubs, and competing in the Champions League, would have become exposed to years of experience within those clubs and plenty of checks and balances. Directors of Football. Barbaric press. They aren't playgrounds for experimenting. Marco Silva lost his first "big club" job despite winning the cup and qualifying for Europe, for failing to wear the right club suit. Extreme of course, but an illustration of having proper push back.

LJ has none of this. Literally zero challenge - unless it's Steve Lansdown, not a footballing man, having an alternative opinion on one of their cosy regular phone calls. So forget the fact his 300-odd games are slightly more than those other managers 300-odd games. The reality is LJ never managed at any level before us and has not worked in any structure that afforded him senior, experienced feedback to re-calibrate his ideas. So yes, he is still learning, and always will be, until he finally succeeds.

[reddogkev]

I was going to post yesterday that City will never get promoted with Lee Johnson.  I like the guy, admire the hell out of what he has done to stabilise and grow the club in the Championship, but he is not an aggressive winner.  I feel he is often too passive and content and doesn't have the steel or determination to get a team promoted.  Tactically, I don't think he could manage a team to win a league / play-offs.

The manager after Lee will be the guy to get City to the Premier League, but LJ will have played a huge part in that success and delivered an impressive foundation to build upon.

My honest assessment.

[Roe]

I love how the general opinion of LJ seems to have changed from the "he doesn't have enough grit and managerial ability to keep us up" to "he doesn't have enough grit and managerial ability to get us into the play offs".  No doubt if we make the play offs this season (big if), next season the criticism will be "yeah but he doesn't have enough managerial ability to get us an automatic spot", and then if that happened it would quickly be "yeah but he can't keep us in the Prem".

[Cjay]

Just dawned on me who Lee Johnson reminded me off, Paul Heckingbottom, he was Heckys mentor. 

I think Lee Johnson was brave to start Semenyo, but i think he did it not for the betterment of your team but more as an ego massage for himself. Given how Bielsa has shown that he has all this information, how often players play where, who is likely to replace them etc, i think Johnson was trying to be clever, spring a surprise and outsmart Bielsa. 

Then he could talk about how he had outsmarted Bielsa, thought outside the box and tell everyone how clever he was, he has the air of someone a bit smug to me, Hecky did to, comes from managing in places you are comfortable, Hecky at Barnsley, Johnson at Yeovil and you, i do wonder if his relationship with the owner and board is partly to blame for the streaky nature of his management. 

He knows he is pretty safe in his job, if you havent got the motivation of a potential sacking to motivate you to fix problems then why would you bother? When form is poor are your board pushing him for answers? If not why not?

If those above you dont push you to improve unless you are super motivated as a person then why would you?

Got the makings of a good manager imo, but i think until he leaves his comfort zone or he is forced to then i dont think we will see just how good or bad he is. 

[Red-Robbo]

7 hours ago, JonDolman said:

He was central quite a bit as well and was no better than when he was wide

Correct. 

The initial line up was utter madness - and it led to the Leeds' goal.

By the time Antoine was played as part of a front two - at least I think that was the idea, he rarely seemed to get within sight of the box - his confidence was broken and he was a spectator.  Leeds dominated because we played with only 10 men in effect.

And then another Johnson clanger. We were obviously not getting anywhere and Semenyo was having a torrid time. Why wait until the hour mark to make the subs that suddenly put us on the front foot? The first half line-up was obviously struggling, why would the same players in the same positions suddenly come good after a short break?

Leeds are not where they are for no reason and they've destroyed some teams this season. But we could at least have got a point there.

It isn't that the players aren't good enough; it isn't that they aren't motivated; it isn't that they gave Leeds "too much respect"; it isn't that they were tired; the ref was a **** but it wasn't his fault either.

We lost that one because of decisions taken by the head coach.

[Kevin Brady]

6 hours ago, old_eastender said:

I don't have a problem with LJs decision to play Semenyo, but that should have been up front alongside Fammy - the role he played so well in the sub appearance at PNE - to start him left wing was stupidity and led to the Leeds goal.

LJ repeatedly picking BW at RB is frustrating. I like BW, he is a decent CENTRE BACK, and good backup for Webster & Kallas, but he should not be starting at RB if Pisano or Hunt are fit. Both of them are better defensively at RB and much better offensively than BW. The Norwich game was one , where having gone in at HT leading but with BW being skinned repeatedly at RB, the only obvious change was to take BW off for Pisano, but LJ didn't and it cost us.

Judgement for LJ will come after 46 games played; Fall away (like last season) and finish lower than 10th then get rid. Finish 7th-10th give him another season to see if we can make the improvement to finish in the top 6. Finish in the top 6, then much eating of humble pie needed and LJ will finally deserve the accolades many have been prematurely giving him. 

OE, I usually agree with most of your posts. Semenyo should never have started. When he came on the other week, he was always going to look positive. We were chasing the game and the opposition sat back a little. Starting such a young, inexperienced lad at home, in front of a sell-out crowd, hyped up beyond belief and  against one of the best and more physical sides in the league was total madness. He looked lost and the experience will have dented his confidence. I am all for blooding these players but surely its best to do it gradually and start with a few away games where there is less pressure. I am with you 100% on LJ's obsession with playing Bailey at RB. It was embarrassing to watch Hernandez skin him time after time at Norwich and last weekend was as painful. Bailey as a leader I don't take issue with, but he is one of our slower players, does not distribute balls to our wingers quick enough

[Mr Popodopolous]

1 minute ago, Kevin Brady said:

OE, I usually agree with most of your posts. Semenyo should never have started. When he came on the other week, he was always going to look positive. We were chasing the game and the opposition sat back a little. Starting such a young, inexperienced lad at home, in front of a sell-out crowd, hyped up beyond belief and  against one of the best and more physical sides in the league was total madness. He looked lost and the experience will have dented his confidence. I am all for blooding these players but surely its best to do it gradually and start with a few away games where there is less pressure. I am with you 100% on LJ's obsession with playing Bailey at RB. It was embarrassing to watch Hernandez skin him time after time at Norwich and last weekend was as painful. Bailey as a leader I don't take issue with, but he is one of our slower players, does not distribute balls to our wingers quick enough

Think there's a way Bailey Wright at RB can work even vs good sides...if it's a really compact side, with say Wright-Kalas-Webster-Kelly. Back 4...yet no orthodox full backs, players who can come inside and really condense- in the right shape that's one option.

You'd need to sacrifice some width though, and Diedhiou- think back to the 4-4-1-1 when we had all the injuries. That's the only way I'd consider him at RB though, if we play it but with a regular LB in Da Silva on the left, one less likely to come inside then Wright at RB? Not for me. The half and half approach doesn't really work IMO.

[SPAZZA]

Reading this has been interesting and reminds me of a situation at Leeds.

Until this season Roofe has always been played out wide, it got to the end of last season and many (including myself) said either sell him or play him through the middle. We didn't think he was good enough to lead the line so unless played as a two we'd want to cash in.

Obviously this season is the first time he has played in his natural position through the middle, he has been a revelation.

However, I think the system determines a players performance, if Roofe played out wide (I don't want to see it) I bet he'd be more effective than last year as there is a cohesive plan.

The impression I get with LJ is EXACTLY the same thing I said about last year, there is no plan and he does not know who his best 11 players are / how to gett he best out of them.

The reason I think Bristol City will miss out is because you don't have the "knobbishness" about your team, the arrogance that you belong in the top 6. I think the fans also don't help this. 

For a club as established as you, it is hard to think of any decent manager (in relative terms to other teams) that you have ever had? Should this be the way the club is run, once and for all I can see what a manager does to the club / players. 

Is it about time Lansdown actually invested in a manager, one with a track record or promotions to the PL etc.

[red panda]

7 minutes ago, SPAZZA said:

.... 

Is it about time Lansdown actually invested in a manager, one with a track record or promotions to the PL etc.

You mean like Bruce at Villa or Karanka at Forest?  Those worked well 

[SPAZZA]

2 minutes ago, red panda said:

You mean like Bruce at Villa or Karanka at Forest?  Those worked well 

Well as an example at least some of those may have started with the mindset of promotion.

Whereas at the start of the season what do City and their fans genuinely aim for, plodding about in between 8th-18th place?

 

[Bazooka Joe]

20 minutes ago, SPAZZA said:

Well as an example at least some of those may have started with the mindset of promotion.

Whereas at the start of the season what do City and their fans genuinely aim for, plodding about in between 8th-18th place?

 

I'm definitely not one of them, but I know a few who fit this category.

Some of the things you've said have a degree of truth - which, as far as I'm concerned, ain't good.

"Arrogance" is probably not the right word, but I know what you mean.

 

[Undy English]

18 hours ago, The Red Planet said:

Even during the lengthy run of defeats last season, I never joined the LJ Out brigade because I thought we should give him a chance to develop as a coach and I knew that a) he is backed 100% by SL and b) he is a former player and a decent man.

After our recent great run of wins, it looked like I had backed a winner.

I am fully aware that we should never judge our Head Coach on just one game BUT - what was he thinking of by starting rookie Semenyo for his home debut against hugely physical, hard-nosed  Leeds ? 

Playing out of his normal position and against the most pressing side in this league. Madness.

No surprise that it was his mistake that left Ayling to make a lovely pass for Bamford to score.

Don't get me wrong, this young player has a great future and having seen the highlights of his sub performance away at Preston - he is a star for the future. 

So, I think that tactically LJ got most of it wrong v Leeds. 

I never ever boo City but I can understand that after a 1st half when we were totally dominated by Leeds who - will surely be in  the PL next season. 

 

 

Agree entirely - it's these ad-hoc reckless decisions and tinkering with the squad/formation that have many set against him.

For me personally, it shows a lack of managerial experience at this level, but no need for a Johnson Out lynch mob so many fans are set on forming.

[BS4 on Tour...]

6 hours ago, Olé said:

I don't necessarily disagree with the spirit of the point you're making (how long LJ is still afforded mistakes as "development"), but those specific comparisons are ridiculous - and you know it! In every case the managers you chose literally only have a handful of games difference in their experience relative to LJ (all c. 300) - it's hardly a meaningful difference, yet all of them have managed in the Premiership, and 3 of them in the Champions League. Their backgrounds could not be more different. 

Nuno had unprecedented success with a small club in Portugal (multiple cup finals and Europe), coached in the Champions League with both Porto and Valencia, and won multiple La Liga manager of the month awards. Marco Silva took a lower division club up into the top flight and then into Europe, and then coached Sporting Lisbon and Olympiakos. Alex Neil won consecutive top flight promotions with Hamilton and Norwich. Wagner spent 4 years with one of the biggest clubs in the world.

By comparison Lee Johnson came to us with no credible success or experience of success, and also lacks a variety of experiences the names you've mentioned above have acquired across different clubs and competitions. There is literally nothing to compare: Oldham and Barnsley are trivial relative to CV's of the people above. And that is the fairer comparison of the main flaw in LJ - he has plenty of ideas but they're all tested "on the go" as he's in an echo chamber without experience around him.

Most of those other names, by reaching the top flight, major domestic clubs, and competing in the Champions League, would have become exposed to years of experience within those clubs and plenty of checks and balances. Directors of Football. Barbaric press. They aren't playgrounds for experimenting. Marco Silva lost his first "big club" job despite winning the cup and qualifying for Europe, for failing to wear the right club suit. Extreme of course, but an illustration of having proper push back.

LJ has none of this. Literally zero challenge - unless it's Steve Lansdown, not a footballing man, having an alternative opinion on one of their cosy regular phone calls. So forget the fact his 300-odd games are slightly more than those other managers 300-odd games. The reality is LJ never managed at any level before us and has not worked in any structure that afforded him senior, experienced feedback to re-calibrate his ideas. So yes, he is still learning, and always will be, until he finally succeeds.

Don’t believe all you read on Wiki....Silva was presented with a 400 page document detailing why he was sacked from his job at Sporting.....he had broken club protocol on many occasions including missing important club meetings. He had just led the club to qualification for the champions league in his first season in charge there, despite being a manager for less than 170 games in his career....do you really think not wearing a club suit would be the sole reason for his demise after bringing that early success?

And after being a manager for only around 200 games he was managing in the premier league over here in his first job in English football....why didn’t anyone take a punt on LJ back then? He had managed more games than Silva at that point and was more experienced as a manager, as he still is....you say that Silva etc has managed bigger clubs than LJ, and you are obviously correct, but Silva started at Estoril and was instantly successful, that’s why he was recognised quickly by a bigger club like Sporting.

LJ is more experienced in terms of games, he is nowhere near an inexperienced manager now, but he isn’t as good a manager as people like Silva, Neil, Wagner etc....those guys got quick instant success, Neil at unfashionable clubs like Hamilton and Norwich.

But LJ still has more experience of managing more games than the other guys.....they can’t help being so successful so quickly and so moved on and up in the game quicker than LJ in less games....

 

 

[DAVETHERAVERED]

8 hours ago, Olé said:

I don't necessarily disagree with the spirit of the point you're making (how long LJ is still afforded mistakes as "development"), but those specific comparisons are ridiculous - and you know it! In every case the managers you chose literally only have a handful of games difference in their experience relative to LJ (all c. 300) - it's hardly a meaningful difference, yet all of them have managed in the Premiership, and 3 of them in the Champions League. Their backgrounds could not be more different. 

Nuno had unprecedented success with a small club in Portugal (multiple cup finals and Europe), coached in the Champions League with both Porto and Valencia, and won multiple La Liga manager of the month awards. Marco Silva took a lower division club up into the top flight and then into Europe, and then coached Sporting Lisbon and Olympiakos. Alex Neil won consecutive top flight promotions with Hamilton and Norwich. Wagner spent 4 years with one of the biggest clubs in the world.

By comparison Lee Johnson came to us with no credible success or experience of success, and also lacks a variety of experiences the names you've mentioned above have acquired across different clubs and competitions. There is literally nothing to compare: Oldham and Barnsley are trivial relative to CV's of the people above. And that is the fairer comparison of the main flaw in LJ - he has plenty of ideas but they're all tested "on the go" as he's in an echo chamber without experience around him.

Most of those other names, by reaching the top flight, major domestic clubs, and competing in the Champions League, would have become exposed to years of experience within those clubs and plenty of checks and balances. Directors of Football. Barbaric press. They aren't playgrounds for experimenting. Marco Silva lost his first "big club" job despite winning the cup and qualifying for Europe, for failing to wear the right club suit. Extreme of course, but an illustration of having proper push back.

LJ has none of this. Literally zero challenge - unless it's Steve Lansdown, not a footballing man, having an alternative opinion on one of their cosy regular phone calls. So forget the fact his 300-odd games are slightly more than those other managers 300-odd games. The reality is LJ never managed at any level before us and has not worked in any structure that afforded him senior, experienced feedback to re-calibrate his ideas. So yes, he is still learning, and always will be, until he finally succeeds.

 

[Olé]

8 hours ago, BS4 on Tour... said:

Don’t believe all you read on Wiki....Silva was presented with a 400 page document detailing why he was sacked from his job at Sporting.....he had broken club protocol on many occasions including missing important club meetings. He had just led the club to qualification for the champions league in his first season in charge there, despite being a manager for less than 170 games in his career....do you really think not wearing a club suit would be the sole reason for his demise after bringing that early success?

And after being a manager for only around 200 games he was managing in the premier league over here in his first job in English football....why didn’t anyone take a punt on LJ back then? He had managed more games than Silva at that point and was more experienced as a manager, as he still is....you say that Silva etc has managed bigger clubs than LJ, and you are obviously correct, but Silva started at Estoril and was instantly successful, that’s why he was recognised quickly by a bigger club like Sporting.

Not really important after tonight's performance but bit of an odd response mate - don't even know where to start. You're basically re-enforcing the point I was making which is that all the other managers you listed were successful (i.e. Premiership, Champions League) and quickly got into positions where their ideas were subject to checks and balances from experienced, successful club structures, as opposed to LJ, who will continue to "learn" in his own echo chamber until he succeeds. It doesn't really sound like we're disagreeing so am not sure why you sent this argument back about Silva.

On the note of Silva, telling me not to believe what I read on Wiki or about his origins at Estoril is bizarre. I grew up in the adjoining town to Estoril and twice saw him play for Estoril before he was manager, I then followed his career, and was invited to see him manage in Europe - I was there when Estoril beat Panathinaikos at home. I know exactly what went down next at Sporting as I read Portuguese papers, like the comedy roadshow they are, the suit was the only story that got any attention when they needed an excuse to hijack Jorge Jesus from Benfica (who along with his dad played for Sporting).

Odd to lecture about Silva, when we're both basically saying the same thing about LJ, i.e. that all the other managers were successful and went onto clubs where they gained proper top level experience.