Birmingham FFP

[Monkeh]

1 minute ago, BessexRED said:

I took that interview with a pinch of salt. He then went onto claim that he'd basically never heard of Jota, Dean or Colin who they all signed on deadline day. Colin I could believe, Dean maybe but Jota was the best player in the league for the 5 months he was back at Brentford so I don't buy it whatsoever.

If true, he shouldn't have been given an opportunity at this level as he's clearly out of touch.

Your talking about a manager who knows next to nothing about the championship though,

you ask Brendon Rogers about jota and I’d doubt he’d know a hell of a lot about him ether

[Sturny]

7 minutes ago, BessexRED said:

I took that interview with a pinch of salt. He then went onto claim that he'd basically never heard of Jota, Dean or Colin who they all signed on deadline day. Colin I could believe, Dean maybe but Jota was the best player in the league for the 5 months he was back at Brentford so I don't buy it whatsoever.

If true, he shouldn't have been given an opportunity at this level as he's clearly out of touch.

That's awful from the club haha 

[Mr Popodopolous]

13 minutes ago, Monkeh said:

Harry wasn’t in charge of the books, or the transfers, they had a director of football responsible for that, much like Ashton here,

 

If left to him, it may have been worse!

Read a while back that he wanted to sign Ashley Cole, Downing and Robbie Keane- at least some of those the club signed may have some sell on value...the wages Downing is on at Middlesbrough for a start, and doubt the other 2 would have been cheap from that pov...wanted Terry as well but was priced out.

OTOH Ruddy may have been cheaper than Stockdale and of course he was keen on Flint.

[Ivorguy]

Thankfully we don’t need a penalty from EFL. We are quite capable of doing that for ourselves. A mere loss of three games in a row- LJ territory here !

[Monkeh]

13 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

If left to him, it may have been worse!

Read a while back that he wanted to sign Ashley Cole, Downing and Robbie Keane- at least some of those the club signed may have some sell on value...the wages Downing is on at Middlesbrough for a start, and doubt the other 2 would have been cheap from that pov...wanted Terry as well but was priced out.

OTOH Ruddy may have been cheaper than Stockdale and of course he was keen on Flint.

No doubt, 

[sephjnr]

26 minutes ago, Monkeh said:

Harry wasn’t in charge of the books, or the transfers, they had a director of football responsible for that, much like Ashton here,

His dog was, remember?

[Monkeh]

20 minutes ago, sephjnr said:

His dog was, remember?

that was his tax  

[downendcity]

1 hour ago, ScottishRed said:

Remember they also have to face an 'aggravated breach' charge for refusing to sell Che Adams in January.

My understanding is that if found guilty that punishment will be from the start of next season. 

I can't understand this bit.

My understanding is that they have been "working with" the EFL due to the state of their finances ( since the transfer embargo?) so the state of their accounts, in particular regarding ffp limits, was well known to them and the EFL some time ago.

If the 9 points penalty is for breaching ffp, then why has the aggrevated breach not been addressed at the same time, if it occurred during the period when Brum were meant to be following agreed actions with the EFL?

It's good news that a points penalty has been awarded, as it shows the EFL can and will use this penalty. However, while the 9 points penalty might take them out of the running for the play offs, which were looking slim anyway, it is just sufficient to keep them out of a relegation battle. Adding in additional points deduction for the aggravated offence could have put them right in among the relegation fight and the impact on playing staff and their motivation could have caused real problems.

Until now there had been speculation that a 12 points penalty was likely - not just for Birmingham but for any club seriously breaching ffp. This has created a precedent for a 9 point deduction, which you can bet any clubs falling foul in future will use as the benchmark, and given that Birmingham have been working with the EFL and are guilty of an aggravated breach, I would  suspect any other clubs breaching ffp will argue for a lesser penalty as their offence will not be as sever as Birmingham's. If so then the EFL will have "copped out" of punishing Birmingham as fully as they could/should although the EFL will argue they have come down hard.

YOU can also bet that had the offending club been the other BCFC then a much more swinging penalty would have been given - plus the mandatory 3 match ban for Bailey Wright and Famara!

[CotswoldRed]

2 hours ago, Robbored said:

It was expected that a 12 points deduction was going to be handed out so only 9 points is a surprise.

Smacks of "if you still get relegated it wasn't really anything to do with the penalty but your own form at the end of the season, so please don't sue us". 

[CotswoldRed]

1 hour ago, Bristol Rob said:

Maybe it's 9 points for FFP

Another few points for the aggravated breach, and a few more for that fan attacking Grealish.

I don't want clubs punished for the actions of a few idiots. What are the club supposed to do to prevent it? The FA etc won't allow fences (rightly). That's all a club could do to prevent a Grealish attack being repeated. 

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Robbored said:

It was expected that a 12 points deduction was going to be handed out so only 9 points is a surprise.

I would say this is a "take a 9 point deduction with no fine and that's the end of it with no appeal" or "take a good few more and a massive fine, and then try and take your chance with an appeal".

[Monkeh]

15 minutes ago, CotswoldRed said:

I don't want clubs punished for the actions of a few idiots. What are the club supposed to do to prevent it? The FA etc won't allow fences (rightly). That's all a club could do to prevent a Grealish attack being repeated. 

sadly, I think thats what it needs for it to stop,

[CotswoldRed]

2 minutes ago, Monkeh said:

sadly, I think thats what it needs for it to stop,

Why would that make it stop? Sure, some idiots claim to be proper fans and might think again, but those that aren't surely won't care what transpires from a points deduction. 

The clubs would just have to sit and take it as there is nothing they can do proactively to stop it. 

[Mr Popodopolous]

25 minutes ago, wood_red said:

I would say this is a "take a 9 point deduction with no fine and that's the end of it with no appeal" or "take a good few more and a massive fine, and then try and take your chance with an appeal".

There is a bit of a question mark over what happens now- and this throws up questions, e.g.

• Will last 2 years of losses be counted again- or in layman's terms, 2017/18 huge loss and likely over the limit loss this season be counted in the period next year?
• If not, what happens if they have breached again this season- even taken as a stand-alone season? Additional points this year, added to any punishment next year or nothing?
• Pedersen signing- is that still a live issue that could get points docked? Two different articles say different things!
• Was not selling Che Adams in January counted in this punishment, or is this is a separate offence aka a further aggravated breach- if proven more points I hope, but which season?
• Will they have to sell him this summer to try and square the circle of them likely still being in breach?

There are probably a few more but these are a few good ones to start off with!

[Davefevs]

34 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

There is a bit of a question mark over what happens now- and this throws up questions, e.g.

• Will last 2 years of losses be counted again- or in layman's terms, 2017/18 huge loss and likely over the limit loss this season be counted in the period next year?
• If not, what happens if they have breached again this season- even taken as a stand-alone season? Additional points this year, added to any punishment next year or nothing?
• Pedersen signing- is that still a live issue that could get points docked? Two different articles say different things!
• Was not selling Che Adams in January counted in this punishment, or is this is a separate offence aka a further aggravated breach- if proven more points I hope, but which season?
• Will they have to sell him this summer to try and square the circle of them likely still being in breach?

There are probably a few more but these are a few good ones to start off with!

This is the crux of what happens next....expect Mark Ashton to spill the beans (not!)

This is worth a watch

 

[Guest]

46 minutes ago, CotswoldRed said:

Why would that make it stop? Sure, some idiots claim to be proper fans and might think again, but those that aren't surely won't care what transpires from a points deduction. 

The clubs would just have to sit and take it as there is nothing they can do proactively to stop it. 

The trouble with giving a points deduction for a "fan" running on the pitch and doing something stupid could cause massive issues. Man City about to win the Prem and a Liverpool fan does just that, Rovers staying up by 1 point yet one of our lot does the same to get them relegated - every club has a nutter who will do something (even just pay some nutter who couldn't care less about a life ban and a few weeks in the nick). It would be way too hard to monitor on what is a fan and what is not. Yes a fan got past the stewards for Grealish, but that could easily happen at any ground in the UK even if you have a lot more stewards - if they are not busy asking people to sit down!

[Mr Popodopolous]

31 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

This is the crux of what happens next....expect Mark Ashton to spill the beans (not!)

This is worth a watch

 

Thanks- will give it a watch.

@Bri Stool City Now I hesitate to post this until the EFL come out and cast iron confirm it etc, but looks like a 9 point deduction for Birmingham...with potential of more to come this or next season depending on how the rules are applied moving forward. This is an argument for Lansdown doing the cautious approach (though even I think there should be a bit of flexibility built in).

Remember too they've been operating under various transfer restrictions- cannot pay a fee for a player, cannot pay a loan fee for a player, cannot pay an agents fee...think max wage cap £10,000 per week and 5 loans maximum...yeah there's a good reason to stick to the Lansdown plan, albeit with added flexibility when finances and League position allow for- if not demand- it. Oh yeah and because of said restrictions, there is uncertainty as to whether they can renew for players whose contracts have expired. On the note of contracts, Michael Morrison their captain has his expire in the summer- still unclear they'll be allowed to offer a new one, but a young player they can- albeit it took 3 months to be approved.

We could have risked all that had we rolled the dice when finances didn't allow and opportunity did not knock- or if we do so in the future.,

[Monkeh]

15 minutes ago, wood_red said:

The trouble with giving a points deduction for a "fan" running on the pitch and doing something stupid could cause massive issues. Man City about to win the Prem and a Liverpool fan does just that, Rovers staying up by 1 point yet one of our lot does the same to get them relegated - every club has a nutter who will do something (even just pay some nutter who couldn't care less about a life ban and a few weeks in the nick). It would be way too hard to monitor on what is a fan and what is not. Yes a fan got past the stewards for Grealish, but that could easily happen at any ground in the UK even if you have a lot more stewards - if they are not busy asking people to sit down!

not for just running on the pitch, @phantom posted a good article by a police officer, it highlights the difference,

A fan attacked a player that warrants a massive punishment,

a fan runs on acting a nause but does no damage warrants a fine at best

it can't be a one size fits all approach, the crime has to justify a punishment, what happened at birmingham justifys a massive punishment as a deterrent 

[Lanterne Rouge]

18 minutes ago, wood_red said:

The trouble with giving a points deduction for a "fan" running on the pitch and doing something stupid could cause massive issues. Man City about to win the Prem and a Liverpool fan does just that, Rovers staying up by 1 point yet one of our lot does the same to get them relegated - every club has a nutter who will do something (even just pay some nutter who couldn't care less about a life ban and a few weeks in the nick). It would be way too hard to monitor on what is a fan and what is not. Yes a fan got past the stewards for Grealish, but that could easily happen at any ground in the UK even if you have a lot more stewards - if they are not busy asking people to sit down!

This is my worry. We`re straying dangerously close to fans invading the pitch to get games abandoned.

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, Monkeh said:

not for just running on the pitch, @phantom posted a good article by a police officer, it highlights the difference,

A fan attacked a player that warrants a massive punishment,

a fan runs on acting a nause but does no damage warrants a fine at best

it can't be a one size fits all approach, the crime has to justify a punishment, what happened at birmingham justifys a massive punishment as a deterrent 

That is exactly my point though. There are plenty of lunatics who won't mind a few weeks inside for a few hundred quid, so gets paid runs on pitch and attempts to hit an opposition player. Club gets a points deduction and because of the deduction they don't win a title, get in playoffs or get relegated because of it. The Brummie attack was obvious a Brum fan but I still don't see how it could be stopped by anyone without there being fences.

Nothing to stop us being in 6th (doubt we will be) and some Sag hits A Hull player on the last day to send us out the payoffs - or a side in 7th doing the same (can we get 6 lunatics at 6 grounds to get 6 teams deducted points)? A side in the bottom 3 does the same at a ground where the 4th from bottom is playing to get them a deduction?

[Mr Popodopolous]

14 minutes ago, Red Right Hand said:

This is my worry. We`re straying dangerously close to fans invading the pitch to get games abandoned.

Have stewards chase them...sure that'll work.

On a serious note, it is a worry- but not to make light of a potential serious security issue but and while I don't condone it, there are a few entertaining ones or have been in recent years- I remember seeing them on YouTube before...

Fairly harmless side of it...not condoning, because it's illegal and may encourage more damaging copycats but lightly amusing on a Friday afternoon.

[Jerseybean]

BBC coverage: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/47667742

Here is the table as it now looks: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/championship/table

[Mr Popodopolous]

https://www.efl.com/news/2019/march/efl-statement-birmingham-city/

https://www.efl.com/siteassets/birmingham-city-report/190322---efl-v-bcfc---decision---final.pdf

The latter is the legal judgement in full for anyone who wants it!

Not read it in full yet, but seems 7 points was because their 3 year overspend over and above the £39m and allowable costs, was in the bracket of £8-10m, further 3 points as they didn't take adequate measures to fix the issue hand and 1 point deducted from their deduction for previous good behaviour.

Seems Pedersen wasn't considered an aggravated breach after all- entirely possible EFL messed up their own case on that one! 

[1960maaan]

I know a few have wondered about the 'rolling' 3 year rule, looks like Brum have to be very careful this year too.

From Skysports news.

Birmingham, like all clubs, will have to publish their annual accounts later this year, and if they fall foul of the permissible £39m losses over the previous three years again, they may face further punishment.

 

[downendcity]

Overriding all of this is the primary reason for introducing ffp in the first place, i.e. to avoid clubs becoming insolvent and going bust, and in particular as a result of relegation and then not having the revenue to support their costs.

Bolton are back in the courts trying to fight off a winding up order for the umpteenth time since relegation from the premier league. They were in the premier league for 11 seasons ( IIRC) and I remember reading that  in only one of those 11 years did they manage to make a profit!

If that was the case when they enjoyed the premier league riches ( accepted during those 11 years it wasn't at quite the level of today) then what hope is there when relegated?

Villa and West Brom have effectively mortgaged their third year of parachute payments to give them extra income in their second season after relegation, as if the parachute payments alone are insufficient to enable them compete with the likes of us, Brentford et al! How are clubs like that going to be forced to change the way they operate financially if the penalties dished out for offending are anything but hugely punitive?

 

[Davefevs]

So, all of the above is totally related to 15/16+16/17+17/18 accounts.

Birmingham, therefore already have a £47m FFP adjustable loss “banked” for the first two years 16/17+17/18 of the current 3 year period.  They bought Pederson, but didn’t sell anyone of note to receive a fee.  Add in a wage bill probably £10m in excess of income, plus Amortisation of £8m, and operating expenses of £12m, they are probably gonna have to add £25m on top (£30m loss minus £5m adjustable).

That means not only selling Che Adams for £20m (nobody is gonna okay top whack knowing Brum must sell), but finding another £17m of sales too, whilst more than likely being under another embargo.

Expect them to get a little letter in May enforcing embargo.

Expect Gary Monk to move on.

[JamesBCFC]

View from a Villa fan

"So now after this pathetic punishment it says to me there is absolutely no way in hell we should sell mcginn or grealish in the summer regardless what division what league we are in. We won't get worse than 9 points deduction I'd imagine between 4-6 at worst. I'd rather take the hit as next year having them two we can walk the league under Smith. "

 

 

Of course, that would be the 4th consecutive season they walk this league.

[BCFC11]

1 hour ago, JamesBCFC said:

View from a Villa fan

"So now after this pathetic punishment it says to me there is absolutely no way in hell we should sell mcginn or grealish in the summer regardless what division what league we are in. We won't get worse than 9 points deduction I'd imagine between 4-6 at worst. I'd rather take the hit as next year having them two we can walk the league under Smith. "

 

 

Of course, that would be the 4th consecutive season they walk this league.

They been spouting that bollox for the past 3 seasons, they may learn one day but I highly doubt it given their arrogance towards other teams since being relegated. Next season though unless they manage to scrape through the play offs of course, they could be in a lot more trouble and get a more of a punishment than Birmingham have just been given, that’s if the EFL judge their punishment on the amount of overspend the club has done. I know Villa must bring in a fair amount of income etc but some of the fee’s and wages they have been rumoured to have paid/still paying are ridiculous, they are clearly desparate to get back up but imo their gamble isn’t going to pay off for them and all I can say I tough shit. I’d hope the EFL take a stronger stance on them if their circumstances do exceed Birmingham’s. I don’t think they are alone in failing to meet EFL rules next season, Derby and Sheff Weds and maybe a couple more could also be in hot water next season, after their gambles seem to have failed.