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Major Isewater

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Who wins the most titles or trophies ?

In a world where technology is available to almost all athletes and sportspersons the difference in fitness appears minimal between the levels so what is it that separates the winners from the also rans ? 

It is the belief, the drive , the spirit to overcome an adversary and assume the mantel of winner .

We are desperately short of this at our club . We talk of ‘ flying under the radar ‘ , ‘ not having the same budget as our competitors ‘ , ‘ being ‘ young and inexperienced ‘ ... in short , excuses as to why we will fail . 

These are self fulfilling prophecies which hold our club back and we need to bust out  of this mindset , from SL down to us the supporters.

The last self proclaimed winner at our club was Steve Cotterill and look what he achieved here before he upset the apple cart.

Does LJ inspire the same winning mentality ? Or more likely is he part of a long line of City associated nice guys programmed to be the gallant loser with a brave face and an intriguing list of excuses ? 

We were almost apologetic to be in the top six , did any one person really, profoundly, believe that we would stay there?

There was virtually no excitement that we were there .

SL continues to perpetuate the ‘ family ‘ club image whereas to prosper in this sport a steely determination and a hard edge are needed to clinch the prize that so many other clubs covet.

I respect SL for what he has done for the club and what he continues to do but I feel he needs a change of mindset if he genuinely wants to deliver Premier League football to BS3. 

I hope this thread is redundant  at the end of the season.

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Cotts only achieved what any City manager should be looking to achieve, getting out the third tier and winning the paint pot cup. Ok he done it with style but he didn’t actually set the Championship alight.

It’s a massive step from the top of League One, where we were the big fish, to the top of the Championship, which is now a big pond. To be competing at this level just five years after languishing at the foot of the League One is a massive achievement and should not be underrated, along with the fact that our league positon has improved each season since then.   

Our problem is we’ve never been the Premiership and until we achieve that it will be difficult (not impossible) to compete with sides who have when it’s comes to buying power etc.

The Football League is littered with clubs that have reached the Premier League but have broken themselves by doing so. This club is going about things the right way.

 

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28 minutes ago, Big C said:

Cotts only achieved what any City manager should be looking to achieve, getting out the third tier and winning the paint pot cup. Ok he done it with style but he didn’t actually set the Championship alight.

It’s a massive step from the top of League One, where we were the big fish, to the top of the Championship, which is now a big pond. To be competing at this level just five years after languishing at the foot of the League One is a massive achievement and should not be underrated, along with the fact that our league positon has improved each season since then.   

Our problem is we’ve never been the Premiership and until we achieve that it will be difficult (not impossible) to compete with sides who have when it’s comes to buying power etc.

The Football League is littered with clubs that have reached the Premier League but have broken themselves by doing so. This club is going about things the right way.

 

May be if the players he wanted had been signed he would have ‘ set the Championship a light ‘ ? 

 

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2 minutes ago, Major Isewater said:

May be if the players he wanted had been signed he would have ‘ set the Championship a light ‘ ? 

 

I think his transfer policy was so far removed from what SL wants it to be that he wasn't going to get his way with signings. 

Gayle or Gray at 10 million would still be out of our radar now in many respects. Had he gone for more realistic signings it may have been different 

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5 minutes ago, Major Isewater said:

May be if the players he wanted had been signed he would have ‘ set the Championship a light ‘ ? 

 

The problem with that is the players may not want to come to us. Hence my comment regarding competing with other clubs regarding buying power.

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1 minute ago, Big C said:

The problem with that is the players may not want to come to us. Hence my comment regarding competing with other clubs regarding buying power.

Pay them they will come .

MacGuire was , apparently, already signed up and just needed rubberstamping before, according to some , the club tried to renegotiate the fee with Brentford.

 

How much would we have made on a resale or a higher place in the league with this quality of player ? 

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38 minutes ago, Big C said:

Cotts only achieved what any City manager should be looking to achieve, getting out the third tier and winning the paint pot cup. Ok he done it with style but he didn’t actually set the Championship alight.

It’s a massive step from the top of League One, where we were the big fish, to the top of the Championship, which is now a big pond. To be competing at this level just five years after languishing at the foot of the League One is a massive achievement and should not be underrated, along with the fact that our league positon has improved each season since then.   

Our problem is we’ve never been the Premiership and until we achieve that it will be difficult (not impossible) to compete with sides who have when it’s comes to buying power etc.

The Football League is littered with clubs that have reached the Premier League but have broken themselves by doing so. This club is going about things the right way.

 

Another one falling for the propaganda!

If that were true, explain how Sheffield Utd look a decent bet for auto and have a smaller budget than us, explain how Preston with a much smaller budget look like they will finish above us (on current form).

Explain why Villa and Stoke, for example, are not 15 points clear of the rest?

Can you give an example of clubs that have 'broken themselves' by reaching the Premier League? I don't understand what you mean.

'Doing things the right way' Can you explain what this means? If, you mean constant improvement in league position, I think you may be disappointed by early May.

Maybe you can explain how by doing things the 'right way' we will ever get promoted?

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1 minute ago, ScottishRed said:

Another one falling for the propaganda!

If that were true, explain how Sheffield Utd look a decent bet for auto and have a smaller budget than us, explain how Preston with a much smaller budget look like they will finish above us (on current form).

Explain why Villa and Stoke, for example, are not 15 points clear of the rest?

Can you give an example of clubs that have 'broken themselves' by reaching the Premier League? I don't understand what you mean.

'Doing things the right way' Can you explain what this means? If, you mean constant improvement in league position, I think you may be disappointed by early May.

Maybe you can explain how by doing things the 'right way' we will ever get promoted?

I could but cant be bothered to someone who has been so blinkered in the past it wont matter what I say

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10 minutes ago, Major Isewater said:

How much would we have made on a resale or a higher place in the league with this quality of player ?

But you could never say that he'd have made the same astonishing progress here as he did. It all fell into place for him nicely. It's by no means certain that it would have been the same no matter where he went. 

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13 minutes ago, Major Isewater said:

Pay them they will come .

MacGuire was , apparently, already signed up and just needed rubberstamping before, according to some , the club tried to renegotiate the fee with Brentford.

 

How much would we have made on a resale or a higher place in the league with this quality of player ? 

Not if they get a better offer elsewhere. Gray went to Burnley who had been in the Premiership, Gayle stayed to fight for his place at Newcastle who were in the Premiership. Nobody knows if the Maguire rumour is true or not but even so the deal may have been agreed with the club the player also has to agree.

Look at the clubs within 4pts of us, Middlesbro, Villa, Preston, Derby , Sheff Wed and Forest. Take of our City glinted glasses and where would we come in a pecking order for a player choosing a club. I would say we might just sneak ahead of Preston and that's debatable

2 minutes ago, ScottishRed said:

Great response - thank you for your time.

My pleasure

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8 minutes ago, ScottishRed said:

Great response - thank you for your time.

But I will say when you say Sheffield United. This is the Sheffield United who have played in the Premier League reached Cup Finals and have a bigger attendance than us or are you saying their stint in the Premier League has broken them so they have to work with a reduced budget!

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4 minutes ago, Big C said:

Not if they get a better offer elsewhere. Gray went to Burnley who had been in the Premiership, Gayle stayed to fight for his place at Newcastle who were in the Premiership. Nobody knows if the Maguire rumour is true or not but even so the deal may have been agreed with the club the player also has to agree.

Look at the clubs within 4pts of us, Middlesbro, Villa, Preston, Derby , Sheff Wed and Forest. Take of our City glinted glasses and where would we come in a pecking order for a player choosing a club. I would say we might just sneak ahead of Preston and that's debatable

My pleasure

You are propagating the exact attitude that I am rallying against.

We tug our forlocks at the mighty Boro, Villa , Derby ... 

Did Wimbledon, before they got shafted , demand , who would ever want to come to us ?

 From non - league to the top division in record time and with a little FA cup win against the mighty Liverpool to show for it .

What about Wigan ? Who’d want to sign for them ? Or Burnley ? Or that hotbed of football Bournemouth ?

 

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8 minutes ago, Major Isewater said:

You are propagating the exact attitude that I am rallying against.

We tug our forlocks at the mighty Boro, Villa , Derby ... 

Did Wimbledon, before they got shafted , demand , who would ever want to come to us ?

 From non - league to the top division in record time and with a little FA cup win against the mighty Liverpool to show for it .

What about Wigan ? Who’d want to sign for them ? Or Burnley ? Or that hotbed of football Bournemouth ?

 

How long did it take Burnley Bournemouth And Wigan to make it. And where are Wigan are Wimbledon now?

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27 minutes ago, Big C said:

How long did it take Burnley Bournemouth And Wigan to make it. And where are Wigan are Wimbledon now?

I am not too sure of the relevance of your question it’s not about time .

For information, in 2009 Bournemouth beat Grimsby to avoid dropping into the Conference.

In 1987, Burnley beat Leyton Orient , again to avoid dropping into non-league.

Wigan joined the Football League in 1978 and are in the same division as us ( I’m surprised you didn’t know that ! ) 

As for Wimbledon as I pointed out they got royally shafted and despite that a Phoenix club rose into the Football league.

 

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It's a tricky thing to understand what the clubs wants to achieve. Being underdogs is what seems to be wanted along with taking punts on players hoping that that £1-2 million will turn into 10m in a couple of years. If that's the case then we'll never have a ready made promotion team. But at the same time they talk about the infrastructure being ready for the premier league. If we don't get into the playoffs next season then something needs to change 

Sheffield Utd are the team to look to. Probably a similar or smaller budget but get ready made players in without breaking the bank, along with a excellent manager. You only have to look at their strikers. They can mix it up anyway they like while we just have one way. 

Teams like Wigan, Blackpool etc who hade got there were never going to be long term. They simply did not have the support to sustain it. Bournemouth an exception to that 

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1 hour ago, ScottishRed said:

Another one falling for the propaganda!

If that were true, explain how Sheffield Utd look a decent bet for auto and have a smaller budget than us, explain how Preston with a much smaller budget look like they will finish above us (on current form).

Explain why Villa and Stoke, for example, are not 15 points clear of the rest?

Can you give an example of clubs that have 'broken themselves' by reaching the Premier League? I don't understand what you mean.

'Doing things the right way' Can you explain what this means? If, you mean constant improvement in league position, I think you may be disappointed by early May.

Maybe you can explain how by doing things the 'right way' we will ever get promoted?

Your reference to villa and stoke nullifies your point and compounds the point that there isn’t much rhyme or reason in the championship. 

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6 minutes ago, EmissionImpossible said:

Okay Major, get us one of the less frugal chairmen and jobs a good un......

.....

....

.

However, I agree with the way SL runs the club and am more than happy with our progression compared to the more topsy turvy years previously.

It’s not even a question of spending it’s about buying right .

I’m glad you’re happy with how things are it’s all very cosy . I’m sure SL is happy with how things are as well but if we are to thrive at the highest level , where the competition is more cutthroat, then  attitudes at the club need to change.

Things can change very quickly in football and if you’re not advancing you get overtaken very quickly.

Take our recent form into the start of next season and we are staring down the barrel.

 

 

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37 minutes ago, Major Isewater said:

I am not too sure of the relevance of your question it’s not about time .

For information, in 2009 Bournemouth beat Grimsby to avoid dropping into the Conference.

In 1987, Burnley beat Leyton Orient , again to avoid dropping into non-league.

Wigan joined the Football League in 1978 and are in the same division as us ( I’m surprised you didn’t know that ! ) 

As for Wimbledon as I pointed out they got royally shafted and despite that a Phoenix club rose into the Football league.

 

Well, where to start with this...it's a load of random examples and a bit of a hodgepodge tbh.

All these clubs had their successes- and their falls- at different times. In different eras.

With different financial regulations- they all have vastly different backstories.

Can we learn elements of what they got right? Sure. However it's bad enough when comparing recent examples of clubs to the PL but there's no coherent theme through these clubs- they in their own ways all had vastly different models, with different requirements...

For information, Bournemouth flouted and then some FFP rules at a time when they were nowhere near tight enough. They were still managed well and recruited well but it isn't applicable.

When you mean for Burnley? In 2008/09 or about 10 years ago would be a good place to start. Burnley had a Cup run to semis and momentum helped take them up to playoffs. FFP wasn't a factor but it was a case of all the stars aligning- rerun that season 10 times and Burnley wouldn't go up anymore than once. That was the foundation of their initial success- well run too of course, I praise them for it but the stars aligning all at once- well it's rare that's why when it happens it is notable! Without that initial promotion and parachute payments though, building gradually and yo-yoing a bit until they got themselves where they are now, with parachute payments all the while helping the process along.

Bankrolled by Dave Whelan predominantly. Not replicable in the same way- moving to JJB/DW Stadium also helped, stole a march on some sides in terms of attracting players etc but FFP did not exist. Not saying they didn't do well to stay in the PL, win FA Cup and indeed get there in the first place- they clearly did- clearly chose managers well and recruited well too but it can't be done again model wise.

The biggest miracle of all. Won FA Cup 1987 was it, had their meteoric rise up the League- through in part of course robust tactics but also football in the 1980s was at a very low ebb. As such, teams could rise and fall drastically due to a lack of cash- it was more fluid in many ways, so it was an opportune time. Not taking anything away from them at all though.

So with that in mind, 2 are not possible to repeat, 1 is in terms of foundations being laid stars aligning and one is a miracle in a time of a low ebb for the sport.

What lessons can we learn from that??

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2 hours ago, Major Isewater said:

May be if the players he wanted had been signed he would have ‘ set the Championship a light ‘ ? 

 

We'd have broken FFP probably and had penalties- are you aware we lost £14m that season even without Maguire, Lingard (though he'd have been by no means realistic), Gray or Gayle- though all would have had sell-on value, perhaps significantly so.

We weren't as a club financially in a position to be able to compete for players like that on permanent deals at that stage. Not blaming Cotts, it was just a matter of timing- compare our turnover then, that season and compare it now.

For the record:

BCFC Holdings- Turnover

  • 2017/18- £25,062,080 (Plus Discontinued Operations £913,352)
  • 2016/17- £20,487,744 (Plus Discontinued Operations £760,591).
  • 2015/16- £14,175,396

BCFC Limited- Wage Bill (excluding Social Security e.g. NI etc, or club pension payments)

  • 2017-18- £20,592,538- About 82.16%
  • 2016/17- £15,957,410 About 77.89% of turnover- not at all bad by Championship standards!!
  • 2015/16- £13,975,708 About 98.59% of turnover.

The disappointing thing about that period- and I can't blame Cotts for wanting the best- is that if he had been of a mindset maybe to get into a holding pattern for a year or 2 while this side by which I mean the financial and commercial aspect- was built up then it may have been different.

Because maybe in 16/17 or last season we would have been able, he would have been able to reap the benefits of this higher income, and really have made a play for those he wanted. If we include the Discontinued operations then it may improve a bit further...but then defined contribution scheme and Social Security costs probably should be included and would change that equation!

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We suffered after 82. And that went on years. We saw ourselves including board fans pundits as kings of div 3. Bigger budget bigger stadium and bigger piss heads doing just enough. SL has changed that culture. 

Sure it’s taken time bur SL took on this poison chalice culture and has changed it. Look around you Ladies England are playing at AG this week and a 20k crowd is expected. 

 

 

 

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17 minutes ago, Major Isewater said:

It’s not even a question of spending it’s about buying right .

I’m glad you’re happy with how things are it’s all very cosy . I’m sure SL is happy with how things are as well but if we are to thrive at the highest level , where the competition is more cutthroat, then  attitudes at the club need to change.

You are guessing at the attitudes at the club and with your assumed attitudes, how would you change things?

Things can change very quickly in football and if you’re not advancing you get overtaken very quickly.

I see that we are advancing and think the way we are run now, makes far more sense than say the whole John Ward/Benny Lennartson era.

Take our recent form into the start of next season and we are staring down the barrel.

Not sure why our recent form would transfer over into next season as opposed to our mid season form or quite possibly our end of season form (last 10 games)

But if you see us going backwards then fair enough.

 

 

.

 

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7 hours ago, Major Isewater said:

It’s not even a question of spending it’s about buying right .

I’m glad you’re happy with how things are it’s all very cosy . I’m sure SL is happy with how things are as well but if we are to thrive at the highest level , where the competition is more cutthroat, then  attitudes at the club need to change.

Things can change very quickly in football and if you’re not advancing you get overtaken very quickly.

Take our recent form into the start of next season and we are staring down the barrel.

 

 

Major, I agree entirely with you. Our club are a bunch of pussies compared to others who have a different attitude. **** um, I'd rather see a get up and at them attitude where we don't appear inferior to other so called bigger clubs, you're a goal down already with that attitude. I see Brentford as a smaller club, it doesn't seem to  give them an inferiority complex, they love playing so called bigger teams off the park. Unfortunately as has been seen with the other posts on here, it's almost as if we're apologetic for competing in the same division as them. It needs a more bullish attitude right through the club. There's no doubt our infrastructure is improving but, we now have to start thinking we are on a level playing field. Ok some clubs have big expensive squads, with that comes other pressures, such as keeping two first teams happy, after all they can only use fourteen players in any one match, the same as us. 

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10 hours ago, JBFC II said:

I think his transfer policy was so far removed from what SL wants it to be that he wasn't going to get his way with signings. 

Gayle or Gray at 10 million would still be out of our radar now in many respects. Had he gone for more realistic signings it may have been different 

If Tetbury Massive is anywhere near the money, Maguire was about £2m and Gray was £4m when Cotts went on holiday.  I’m sure he’ll correct me if i’m Inaccurate.  £10m was never on the table for Gray....it was £6m to match Burnley.  Gayle (after we’d lost out on Gray) was rumoured to be £6m + £3m for promotion (so £6m ?).  He never wanted to come here.  Had we got Gray, then we may not have spent money on Kodjia.

8 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

We'd have broken FFP probably and had penalties- are you aware we lost £14m that season even without Maguire, Lingard (though he'd have been by no means realistic), Gray or Gayle- though all would have had sell-on value, perhaps significantly so.

We weren't as a club financially in a position to be able to compete for players like that on permanent deals at that stage. Not blaming Cotts, it was just a matter of timing- compare our turnover then, that season and compare it now.

For the record:

BCFC Holdings- Turnover

  • 2017/18- £25,062,080 (Plus Discontinued Operations £913,352)
  • 2016/17- £20,487,744 (Plus Discontinued Operations £760,591).
  • 2015/16- £14,175,396

BCFC Limited- Wage Bill (excluding Social Security e.g. NI etc, or club pension payments)

  • 2017-18- £20,592,538- About 82.16%
  • 2016/17- £15,957,410 About 77.89% of turnover- not at all bad by Championship standards!!
  • 2015/16- £13,975,708 About 98.59% of turnover.

The disappointing thing about that period- and I can't blame Cotts for wanting the best- is that if he had been of a mindset maybe to get into a holding pattern for a year or 2 while this side by which I mean the financial and commercial aspect- was built up then it may have been different.

Because maybe in 16/17 or last season we would have been able, he would have been able to reap the benefits of this higher income, and really have made a play for those he wanted. If we include the Discontinued operations then it may improve a bit further...but then defined contribution scheme and Social Security costs probably should be included and would change that equation!

Possibly (not probably) broken FFP. ?

We spent a fortune on loans for players like Hamer (has one good game), Moore (good But suffered hernia injury), Baker (good), Simon Cox), Robinson initially, then Elliott Bennett (good) after Fredericks went.  In the winter window we signed Gladwin (injured after 1 game), O’Donnell, Tomlin, Matthews initially plus Golbourne and then Odemwingie and Pearce on emergency loans.

That is a serious amount of money that would not have been spent to the same level had we got who we wanted initially.

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15 hours ago, EmissionImpossible said:

.

 

I’m not guessing at attitudes  , it’s evident from the press conferences in the lead up to the matches against the big clubs ( ie most of the ones we play in the division) , whining about budgets , quality of their squads ... and the way we set up in the match  .etc . 

We are way too respectful of too many clubs because of their history or wealth.

 

Planning for failure.

 I agree that the infrastructure is a million times better than in the past however there remains a mental block which stops us maximizing these wonderful facilities.

I’m not sure that we will take our recent form into next season either , I didn’t say I was but confidence is so important in this sport and we are sliding so it will take more mental strength to turn it round . The very mental strength that is lacking as we struggle to get a win .

We have made great strides this season but the fact remains that we still seem to lack the conviction to see the job through and push on to the next level.

 

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17 hours ago, Big C said:

Not if they get a better offer elsewhere. Gray went to Burnley who had been in the Premiership, Gayle stayed to fight for his place at Newcastle who were in the Premiership. Nobody knows if the Maguire rumour is true or not but even so the deal may have been agreed with the club the player also has to agree....

Gayle was at Palace when we tried to sign him....

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32 minutes ago, Major Isewater said:

I’m not guessing at attitudes  , it’s evident from the press conferences in the lead up to the matches against the big clubs ( ie most of the ones we play in the division) , whining about budgets , quality of their squads ... and the way we set up in the match  .etc . 

We are way too respectful of too many clubs because of their history or wealth.

 

Planning for failure.

 I agree that the infrastructure is a million times better than in the past however there remains a mental block which stops us maximizing these wonderful facilities.

I’m not sure that we will take our recent form into next season either , I didn’t say I was but confidence is so important in this sport and we are sliding so it will take more mental strength to turn it round . The very mental strength that is lacking as we struggle to get a win .

We have made great strides this season but the fact remains that we still seem to lack the conviction to see the job through and push on to the next level.

 

We seem to be going around in circles, SL seems to lack conviction in his managers to fund them enough to make a sustained effort at promotion. Regularly cashing in on our best assets instead of adding to them in the Jan windows. This has cost us real chances of kicking on.

FFP is a big stick being waved by some fans when in fact no club has yet been not promoted because they have spent to much.

Players don't want to come here because we are going nowhere and lack the conviction to invest in anything bar bricks and mortar and they leave for the same reason.

I cannot see that the ground investment has brought in much more funding to our club and the upcoming hotel/arena/car parking will no doubt be the same.....nice safe club but going nowhere anytime soon until we build a squad and add to it... not rip it apart every season....round and round we go.

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1 hour ago, Major Isewater said:

I’m not guessing at attitudes  , it’s evident from the press conferences in the lead up to the matches against the big clubs ( ie most of the ones we play in the division) , whining about budgets , quality of their squads ... and the way we set up in the match  .etc . 

We are way too respectful of too many clubs because of their history or wealth.

 

Planning for failure.

 I agree that the infrastructure is a million times better than in the past however there remains a mental block which stops us maximizing these wonderful facilities.

I’m not sure that we will take our recent form into next season either , I didn’t say I was but confidence is so important in this sport and we are sliding so it will take more mental strength to turn it round . The very mental strength that is lacking as we struggle to get a win .

We have made great strides this season but the fact remains that we still seem to lack the conviction to see the job through and push on to the next level.

 

Truthfully I think that you and others with this mindset are impatient and to a degree I can understand why l. SL wants to make sure we can comply with FFP and build an infrastructure to compete in the PL, I think the Mental Strength is lacking with some fans.

But I do still think you are guessing at the mindset because those tactics before matches can be used to motivate your team and also can be used to demonstrate the teams that are bending the FFP rules or maybe LJ is frustrated and if that is the case and he doesn’t want to work under this structure, maybe it is for the best that he moves on. Promotion is the dream but progression each season, no matter how slight is key. However if we do slip into the bottom half next season, I would start to question some of the process.

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