What might have been

[Wolf Island]

Freeman to Leeds, Ayling already there, Flint at Boro, Joe and Bobby in the PL, Frankie still with us. Just makes me think we should have backed Cotts. All players who came up with us and then have made it in the championship or higher. We were a bit naive coming up from L1 but if we’d got Gray and Maguire like Cotts asked for we’d be in same position or better than we are now. Regrets.

[BS4 on Tour...]

3 minutes ago, Westcountry Robins said:

Freeman to Leeds, Ayling already there, Flint at Boro, Joe and Bobby in the PL, Frankie still with us. Just makes me think we should have backed Cotts. All players who came up with us and then have made it in the championship or higher. We were a bit naive coming up from L1 but if we’d got Gray and Maguire like Cotts asked for we’d be in same position or better than we are now. Regrets.

Leeds have only expressed an interest in Freeman....according to the media....but I do agree that it would have been very interesting if Cotts had been given Dwight Gayle and/or Andre Gray and Harry Maguire to add to his league one champions ....

[Selred]

Mark Little at Bolton, Derek Williams at Blackburn, JET in Thailand, Baldock at Reading. 

We signed some good young players (Freeman, Ayling etc), but we could be saying the same about Brownhill & Webster soon.

Under Cotts we were too naive, not even putting kids on bench.

Anyway this conversation has happened multiple times, let’s move on.

[Mtimmy11]

I honestly believe that if cotts had been backed the same as Johnson has ,we may not be in the premier yet but we would not be far off and playing more exciting football than we have for the l last 3 years

 

[Allwaysred]

12 minutes ago, Mtimmy11 said:

I honestly believe that if cotts had been backed the same as Johnson has ,we may not be in the premier yet but we would not be far off and playing more exciting football than we have for the l last 3 years

 

Football can't get much worse next year can it, especially at home.

[RobintheRed Red]

8 minutes ago, Allwaysred said:

Football can't get much worse next year can it, especially at home.

No Too right mate take your sleeping bag next year :laugh:

[Wanderingred]

4 hours ago, Mtimmy11 said:

I honestly believe that if cotts had been backed the same as Johnson has ,we may not be in the premier yet but we would not be far off and playing more exciting football than we have for the l last 3 years

 

We aren't far off now to be fair. And the fact that LJ kept us up with the team SC had heading to league one suggests that maybe it's not quite as clear cut as that. Cotts wasn't backed, I agree but results and performances in the first half of that league one season were truly awful.. people seem to forget that.

[Pezo]

Saying that Cotts should have got Gayle or Gray when he actually got Codge is a bit of a strange one for me, Codge had a good season and could have arguably had a better season than Gayle or Gray with how niave we were in this division at the time.

All the players we sold are different players than when they left us mainly due to picking up new/different philosophys and working day in day out with better players. They had potential when they were with us, potential that it could be argued was being wasted. Ayling was starting to get a bit too comfortable, Freeman was agitating for a move and hadn't seemed fit for a couple seasons, Flint wasn't half the defender Kalas is and had already previously had his head turned (although as a personality he is the type you definitely want around), Bobby was running down his contract and Bryan wanted to move for the money and got a PL offer(in the end).

You can't keep players that have got too comfortable, you can't keep players that are losing fitness, you can't keep players that keep have there heads turned and you certainly can't keep players that want to leave - it's just not healthy, you need players with something to prove. 

[Guest]

3 hours ago, Pezo said:

Saying that Cotts should have got Gayle or Gray when he actually got Codge is a bit of a strange one for me, Codge had a good season and could have arguably had a better season than Gayle or Gray with how niave we were in this division at the time.

All the players we sold are different players than when they left us mainly due to picking up new/different philosophys and working day in day out with better players. They had potential when they were with us, potential that it could be argued was being wasted. Ayling was starting to get a bit too comfortable, Freeman was agitating for a move and hadn't seemed fit for a couple seasons, Flint wasn't half the defender Kalas is and had already previously had his head turned (although as a personality he is the type you definitely want around), Bobby was running down his contract and Bryan wanted to move for the money and got a PL offer(in the end).

You can't keep players that have got too comfortable, you can't keep players that are losing fitness, you can't keep players that keep have there heads turned and you certainly can't keep players that want to leave - it's just not healthy, you need players with something to prove. 

Why do they want to leave? because we lack ambition and drive to get to the next level maybe.......play with the best pay with the best, is not a SL policy

[Red Skin]

Cotts wanted to buy what were more or less proven readymade players.  Players on everyone else's radar including  bigger clubs than us.

We were a big fish in L1 and could do that.  We couldn't pursue that startegy in the Championship.  Were Gayle, Gray, and Maguire ever gonna sign except for ridiculous wages?

The only sustainable strategy is to improve scouting and analysis to spot players earlier than other clubs, then develop these players either in the first team or at younger ages.  We are doing this now.  Cotts obviously wasn't on board with this and this is ultimately the reason why we parted company.

[RedRock]

You can add Cunningham as well, now in the Premier, as being part of ‘that’ squad.

There’s 6-7 players we had during the Cotts reign that have developed and are better than Johnson’s equivalents I fear. 

Still, that’s football. As long as we learn by not buying any more sub-6 foot lightweights, in body and mind, we may get to the promised land sometime in the next 20 -30 years.

I fear though the ‘mini me/busy bee’ approach will continue to deliver inconsistent results as the power teams snuff us out when our lightweight players fail to play at the very top of their games. 

[Pezo]

1 hour ago, Bri Stool City said:

Why do they want to leave? because we lack ambition and drive to get to the next level maybe.......play with the best pay with the best, is not a SL policy

Because they want to play at the highest level possible, its not all about money, if we offered any of Bryan, Flint, Bobby, Freeman or Ayling the exact same terms they are on now at the point they moved they would still want to leave because all the clubs they went to had better prospects at the time, and we certainly can't compete financially with prem or parachute payment sides so thats Flint, Bryan, Bobby.

When Freeman and Ayling went to QPR and Leeds they were the established championship sides and we looked like regular relegation fodder.

To be able to compete with the clubs that don't have parachute payments you need to have more than just money, you need the infrastructure and facilities that make you look like a prospective prem club, otherwise players come to you and just get worse, they don't progress and get frustrated and we end up with an expensive degrading player. 

Financially hamstringing the club is not a SL policy. 

[Riaz]

Dear oh dear.

Cotterill was woeful once we got promoted. Had a capable squad and we were relegation fodder until LJ came in and kept us up with pretty much the same squad.

Why would we want a much worse manager than what we've got?

[JBFC II]

6 minutes ago, Riaz said:

Dear oh dear.

Cotterill was woeful once we got promoted. Had a capable squad and we were relegation fodder until LJ came in and kept us up with pretty much the same squad.

Why would we want a much worse manager than what we've got?

It’s a question that seems to appear whenever we go on a poor run, and then disappear whenever we start winning a few games...

Personally I think had we stuck with Cotts we would be yo-yoing between league one and the championship. Yes he gave us a great season in league one but with the finances and squad he had that’s not a great achievement imho. 

Would much rather have Johnson at the helm

[Negan]

Are people genuinely forgetting how many times we shipped 4 goals under cotts in his time with us at this level? Wasn't it about 5 times? Jesus Christ we were diabolical under him. Thanks for the memories Cotts but we'd of been taken down with him in charge. 

[JoeAman08]

Some players grow faster than the club. Some players won’t grow as fast as the club. 

Freeman stalled here and was sold. He got a move closer to home and was made the go to playmaker. He responded by getting fitter. Still think a bit overrated as he takes all their set pieces too but fair enough seems to be doing well there. Think we already got the fee back and have a sell on I am sure. If he stays possible it stunts O’Dowda who has also been linked with Leeds. 

Ayling possible scapegoat for Cheltenham. He is not the star at Leeds. Probable they are just as good if not better with Pisano or Hunt there. Only point is not sure there is much between the 3 but Ayling will always catch the eye because he is good on the ball and that is what most people watch. 

Cunningham was sold by Cotterill so not a great argument there. Good LB for the championship though. 

Flint, Bryan and Reid all outgrew the club. Two went to the prem and can’t see how the club can be beat for that. Even if we had monster ambition they’d have left. Flint was a product of the philosophy. Late 20s and peak value. As a result we got Webster and a year of Kalas. So a win for the club there. 

I am not sure why this argument pops up every few months. We were destined for a swift return to L1 under SC. If he’d have embraced the youth a bit I am sure he could have steered us clear and perhaps done better than LJ but he was far too stubborn to have things his way. It cost him a good job in the end. 

As for Bristol City, we have grown as a club from SC time. Probably would have grown regardless but the club is now in a position if LJ were to go, it is a much easier job to walk into. I am just as down about our poor performances at home and as of late as anyone else but not sure we’d be in as good a position if SC would have stayed any longer

[Mr Popodopolous]

11 hours ago, Mtimmy11 said:

I honestly believe that if cotts had been backed the same as Johnson has ,we may not be in the premier yet but we would not be far off and playing more exciting football than we have for the l last 3 years

 

Less cash then- the timing was unfortunate.

LJ was a beneficiary of our income soaring, in part at least.

I believe that had Cotterill and it's so easy to say with hindsight formed a holding pattern for a year or 2, then he would have got the rewards of the significantly higher income, a decent chunk of which would have been reinvested in the form of fees and wages...

[Mr Popodopolous]

2 hours ago, Bri Stool City said:

Why do they want to leave? because we lack ambition and drive to get to the next level maybe.......play with the best pay with the best, is not a SL policy

I'll remind you of this post when Birmingham get docked 12 points and an embargo- and you can remind me of mine if they don't...

[Chappers]

14 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

I'll remind you of this post when Birmingham get docked 12 points and an embargo- and you can remind me of mine if they don't...

I just find it unbelievable that some people can’t grasp the basic facts that we cannot continuously spend way more than our income (See Bolton, Brum etc., and that players might actually be ambitious to play for bigger clubs/ at a higher level.

[Mr Popodopolous]

32 minutes ago, Chappers said:

I just find it unbelievable that some people can’t grasp the basic facts that we cannot continuously spend way more than our income (See Bolton, Brum etc., and that players might actually be ambitious to play for bigger clubs/ at a higher level.

Tbh, clubs in the Championship frequently do- it's just a matter of size of deficit, ability to service it (Bolton) or how well it's offset by incoming transfers (or not, as we saw last season), especially at the top end.

This is exclusive of offsetting through player sales, allowable costs due to FFP and inclusive of one off wage or transfer bonuses in the case of Wolves and Cardiff but look at that- it's just madness!!

[EnderMB]

It's not down to Cotts or LJ. It's purely down to Lansdown's vision, and hiring Cotts was purely a way to ensure that we'd get back up to the Championship so he could reimplement the vision he had for the club before we got relegated.

As shitty as it sounds, Steve Cotterill fulfilled his usefulness to Steve Lansdown the second we landed promotion, and I am almost positive that Cotts knew this. I remember us not even filling a subs bench for a few games, probably as retaliation for him being told that the club will not focus on youth and will only buy players it can develop. The second we got into the Championship Cotts looked like he didn't want to be here, and we were essentially without a manager for the start of the campaign.

21 minutes ago, Chappers said:

I just find it unbelievable that some people can’t grasp the basic facts that we cannot continuously spend way more than our income (See Bolton, Brum etc., and that players might actually be ambitious to play for bigger clubs/ at a higher level.

People can grasp it just fine. The problem is that, despite over a decade of rule from Lansdown, and the building of numerous facilities and a new sporting empire, our income is still low compared to many of our peers.

It is Lansdown's job to ensure that the club can compete on an open playing field with the rest of the Championship. For me, it's not that we're not spending enough, it's that we're not earning enough to spend what we need - and this is Lansdown's problem.

[Sturny]

27 minutes ago, Chappers said:

I just find it unbelievable that some people can’t grasp the basic facts that we cannot continuously spend way more than our income (See Bolton, Brum etc., and that players might actually be ambitious to play for bigger clubs/ at a higher level.

But how do you know we are/aren't well below FFP? Not trying to be a dick just curious if there's been an interview or something where MA/SL say we're as far as we can go with FFP?

 

Do all clubs spend as much as they possibly can? Have we? 

[Natchfever]

12 hours ago, Selred said:

Mark Little at Bolton, Derek Williams at Blackburn, JET in Thailand, Baldock at Reading. 

We signed some good young players (Freeman, Ayling etc), but we could be saying the same about Brownhill & Webster soon.

Under Cotts we were too naive, not even putting kids on bench.

Anyway this conversation has happened multiple times, let’s move on.

Agreed.

Thought Cotts was great but he was taking us down to make a point no doubt about that so he had to go.

[Selred]

1 hour ago, Moor2Sea said:

You can add Cunningham as well, now in the Premier, as being part of ‘that’ squad.

There’s 6-7 players we had during the Cotts reign that have developed and are better than Johnson’s equivalents I fear. 

 

Ah yes Greg Cunningham, McInnes signing. 

Aden Flint, SODs signing. 

Bobby Reid and Joe Bryan, Academy.

How can you say it’s all down to Cotts? 

[Mr Popodopolous]

14 minutes ago, Sturny said:

But how do you know we are/aren't well below FFP? Not trying to be a dick just curious if there's been an interview or something where MA/SL say we're as far as we can go with FFP?

 

Do all clubs spend as much as they possibly can? Have we? 

I;d say we are in a reasonable position, but can't go nuts with it.

Oddly enough, given our okay results in 2016/17 after the Kodjia sale and the sell-on money we received, a loan for Assombalonga would have been feasible in Jan IMO...even at the money quoted. However likely we lost half our 3 yearly allowance last season (after deductions), and that alright figure for 16/17 will be gone now. OTOH, this season should see a major improvement.

Your 2nd point is a different question- I'd suggest quite a few clubs will take it to the limit, take a calculated gamble and sell/wear the consequences if they fail. We may not be of that mindset...at times I'd like us to roll the dice just a little, when the chance arises.

[Tinmans Love Child]

12 hours ago, Allwaysred said:

Football can't get much worse next year can it, especially at home.

I’ve been watching City for nearly 30 seasons, believe me it can!

[RedRock]

31 minutes ago, Selred said:

Ah yes Greg Cunningham, McInnes signing. 

Aden Flint, SODs signing. 

Bobby Reid and Joe Bryan, Academy.

How can you say it’s all down to Cotts? 

Don’t think I said it was all down to Cotts, indeed, most have improved since he left/were transferred. 

The point I was making is that we had a squad who, I think, if we kept them and added further quality would be more likely challenging for the automatics, if not already in the Premiership.

All if and buts, and easy in hindsight. I get what we’re trying to do, but worry that we aren’t buying the right type of player to add to our existing mix and not at all convinced by the ‘mini me/busy bee’ approach. 

As ever, more leaders and power players - both mentally and physically - required. Those who can dictate play, impose themselves, consistent 7/10’s. Quality not quantity. 

[JBFC II]

5 minutes ago, Moor2Sea said:

Don’t think I said it was all down to Cotts, indeed, most have improved since he left/were transferred. 

The point I was making is that we had a squad who, I think, if we kept them and added further quality would be more likely challenging for the automatics, if not already in the Premiership.

All if and buts, and easy in hindsight. I get what we’re trying to do, but worry that we aren’t buying the right type of player to add to our existing mix and not at all convinced by the ‘mini me/busy bee’ approach. 

As ever, more leaders and power players - both mentally and physically - required. Those who can dictate play, impose themselves, consistent 7/10’s. Quality not quantity. 

We did keep them though for that first season and where were we when cotts left?

Not near the automatic places for a start...

We would have needed to add in a lot of quality to that squad to put them anywhere near the automatic places. Probably 7-8 new first team players in one summer...

[Swede]

2 hours ago, Moor2Sea said:

You can add Cunningham as well, now in the Premier, as being part of ‘that’ squad.

There’s 6-7 players we had during the Cotts reign that have developed and are better than Johnson’s equivalents I fear. 

Still, that’s football. As long as we learn by not buying any more sub-6 foot lightweights, in body and mind, we may get to the promised land sometime in the next 20 -30 years.

I fear though the ‘mini me/busy bee’ approach will continue to deliver inconsistent results as the power teams snuff us out when our lightweight players fail to play at the very top of their games. 

Cunningham was unlucky. Right place, wrong time.

We started playing with wing backs. We had Joe Bryan coming through who was a far better wing back. The fact he's playing in the Premier League is not surprising. Was it bad management on our side? No it wasn't. He got a good move to Preston who have a strong Irish connection and its proved to be a wise move for him. Is he enjoying his football at the moment? Probably not, but the Premier League contract probably softens the blow.

End of story.

[Mr Popodopolous]

13 minutes ago, JBFC II said:

We did keep them though for that first season and where were we when cotts left?

Not near the automatic places for a start...

We would have needed to add in a lot of quality to that squad to put them anywhere near the automatic places. Probably 7-8 new first team players in one summer...

It's a weird one though, how much did Sheffield United add last season to their very similar League One title winning squad?

Yes their squad older but I do feel we didn't tap the potential- had big hopes for the 2015 promotion winning side.

Let's go all hypothetical now:

                   Fielding

       Ayling Flint Maguire

Fredericks/Replacement Smith Pack Bryan

          Freeman

      Kodjia Gray/Gayle

With the likes of Little, Cunningham, Williams as bench strength. Wilbraham and Agard too, though less of use than the first 2...sure we would have needed additions but I do wonder at times.

Failing that, my 'holding pattern' idea:

                  Fielding

Ayling Flint Williams Cunningham

       Smith Pack Freeman

Kodjia  STRIKER  Bryan

Reason for Cunningham LB is more defensive stability, Bryan up in the final third doing damage, Kodjia was central but could pull wide. Freeman as he has shown at QPR is better in a pure central role, Ayling at RB. This is if there wasn't the whole adding the likes of Maguire, Gray etc. In a holding pattern- Fredericks would have been sold in this scenario.