What might have been

[JBFC II]

26 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

It's a weird one though, how much did Sheffield United add last season to their very similar League One title winning squad?

Yes their squad older but I do feel we didn't tap the potential- had big hopes for the 2015 promotion winning side.

Let's go all hypothetical now:

                   Fielding

       Ayling Flint Maguire

Fredericks/Replacement Smith Pack Bryan

          Freeman

      Kodjia Gray/Gayle

With the likes of Little, Cunningham, Williams as bench strength. Wilbraham and Agard too, though less of use than the first 2...sure we would have needed additions but I do wonder at times.

Failing that, my 'holding pattern' idea:

                  Fielding

Ayling Flint Williams Cunningham

       Smith Pack Freeman

Kodjia  STRIKER  Bryan

Reason for Cunningham LB is more defensive stability, Bryan up in the final third doing damage, Kodjia was central but could pull wide. Freeman as he has shown at QPR is better in a pure central role, Ayling at RB. This is if there wasn't the whole adding the likes of Maguire, Gray etc. In a holding pattern- Fredericks would have been sold in this scenario.

That first side could have been top 10 maybe pushing a bit higher tbh

The second team would have been staring relegation in the face though I reckon

[Mr Popodopolous]

2 minutes ago, JBFC II said:

 That first side could have been top 10 maybe pushing a bit higher tbh

The second team would have been staring relegation in the face though I reckon

Starting relegation in the face or a relegation scrap that we could survive?

That's my theory for a holding pattern, strengthening in summer 2016 when redevelopment complete etc. I mean individually theser players seem capable at this level and some above so while it's not a top half side, survival? 

More pragmatic tactics too, would have been necessary with Side 2 IMO.

[Riaz]

What might it have been?

It would have been League one :laugh:

 

[JBFC II]

8 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Starting relegation in the face or a relegation scrap that we could survive?

That's my theory for a holding pattern, strengthening in summer 2016 when redevelopment complete etc. I mean individually theser players seem capable at this level and some above so while it's not a top half side, survival? 

More pragmatic tactics too, would have been necessary with Side 2 IMO.

Maybe a relegation scrap at most, but Derrick Williams at centre back in a back 4 and Freeman at centre mid would have left us very open, especially with a very attack minded right back in Ayling

That side doesn't have much creativity from open play either, Freeman is a dead ball specialist but I think im correct in saying he never made a single assist from open play at home with us? Bryan and Kodjia on the wings wouldn't have provided the sort of creativity we'd have needed to feed a Gayle or Gray either. Really, a creative midfielder is still something we are crying out for, could Walsh be it maybe? 

Still think we needed more realistic strengthening that summer and Cotts apparent targets were too far out of our reach

[Mr Popodopolous]

1 minute ago, JBFC II said:

Maybe a relegation scrap at most, but Derrick Williams at centre back in a back 4 and Freeman at centre mid would have left us very open.

That side doesn't have much creativity from open play either, Freeman is a dead ball specialist but I think im correct in saying he never made a single assist from open play at home with us? Bryan and Kodjia on the wings wouldn't have provided the sort of creativity we'd have needed to feed a Gayle or Gray either. Really, a creative midfielder is still something we are crying out for, could Walsh be it maybe? 

Still think we needed more realistic strengthening that summer and Cotts apparent targets were too far out of our reach

Reckon he made a few more at QPR, would need do some deep research for that though...

Yeah, could rejig that side a bit- maybe Little at RB, Ayling at CB in a back 4 and Williams as bench strength. The latter has been doing alright at Blackburn as a CB- was scrambling about a bit for my front 3...just thinking though a lot of those guys on paper, should have been capable with more pragmatic tactics of lower mid table- certainly individually.

I like the idea of Walsh in a 3, could help break the lines  a bit.

[JBFC II]

2 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Reckon he made a few more at QPR, would need do some deep research for that though...

Yeah, could rejig that side a bit- maybe Little at RB, Ayling at CB in a back 4 and Williams as bench strength. The latter has been doing alright at Blackburn as a CB- was scrambling about a bit for my front 3...just thinking though a lot of those guys on paper, should have been capable with more pragmatic tactics of lower mid table- certainly individually.

I like the idea of Walsh in a 3, could help break the lines  a bit.

If you look at the Blackburn forum 99% of them want Williams gone in the summer, and I know that forums aren't going to show the whole fanbases opinion but it does seem that they don't rate him. Always thought in a back 3 he was fine, just never quite in a back 4. 

Mark Little was a favourite of mine due to his work ethic, gave 110% every match but in reality he doesn't have the quality to be a first choice right back for a mid table championship side. Right back is still a position we, for some weird reason, are weak in and have been since Bradley Orr really. I think we could have been a much more pragmatic side definitely, but Cotts didn't want that and his tactics left us wide open, with the players not having the quality to match lots of sides around us. Had we gone more pragmatic, in the same style we see a few clubs take when they come to us, that side could have definitely survived. 

Always been a fan of Walsh as well, a midfield three of Walsh Brownhill and a fully fit Korey Smith (if we'll ever see him at his best) would be quality in this league I reckon. 

[Carey 6]

This 'what if we backed Cotterill' argument has been done to death on here. I agree with the OP and had many arguments on here previously about it. 

13 minutes ago, JBFC II said:

If you look at the Blackburn forum 99% of them want Williams gone in the summer, and I know that forums aren't going to show the whole fanbases opinion but it does seem that they don't rate him. Always thought in a back 3 he was fine, just never quite in a back 4. 

Mark Little was a favourite of mine due to his work ethic, gave 110% every match but in reality he doesn't have the quality to be a first choice right back for a mid table championship side. Right back is still a position we, for some weird reason, are weak in and have been since Bradley Orr really. I think we could have been a much more pragmatic side definitely, but Cotts didn't want that and his tactics left us wide open, with the players not having the quality to match lots of sides around us. Had we gone more pragmatic, in the same style we see a few clubs take when they come to us, that side could have definitely survived. 

Always been a fan of Walsh as well, a midfield three of Walsh Brownhill and a fully fit Korey Smith (if we'll ever see him at his best) would be quality in this league I reckon. 

Agreed on Williams, he's not good enough going forward as a left back & not dominant enough to be a CB in this division. I also felt the same about Magnússon. 

Walsh is a weird one, I don't feel I've seen him play enough (and I've watched 13 of his 15 appearances for us) to actually know how good/not good he is, surprised a few people feel so strongly about him. Needs a run in the side so we can see.

[Mr Popodopolous]

2 hours ago, JBFC II said:

If you look at the Blackburn forum 99% of them want Williams gone in the summer, and I know that forums aren't going to show the whole fanbases opinion but it does seem that they don't rate him. Always thought in a back 3 he was fine, just never quite in a back 4. 

Mark Little was a favourite of mine due to his work ethic, gave 110% every match but in reality he doesn't have the quality to be a first choice right back for a mid table championship side. Right back is still a position we, for some weird reason, are weak in and have been since Bradley Orr really. I think we could have been a much more pragmatic side definitely, but Cotts didn't want that and his tactics left us wide open, with the players not having the quality to match lots of sides around us. Had we gone more pragmatic, in the same style we see a few clubs take when they come to us, that side could have definitely survived. 

Always been a fan of Walsh as well, a midfield three of Walsh Brownhill and a fully fit Korey Smith (if we'll ever see him at his best) would be quality in this league I reckon. 

I reckon Williams a good squad player- his ratings actually seem not to have been too bad at CB on sites but he's not been a regular. 

Little not a first choice no, I was thinking about what we had at that time, and agree we have not had a stellar RB for some time. More pragmatic, and doesn't have to be full on pragmatism, just a bit more it could have survived I agree- my thinking in that scenario was survive, then when income shoots up over the coming year or 2 to strengthen and develop the style gradually, accordingly over time,

@Carey 6 Magnússon was an interesting one IMO. Good enough...but in the right system. Specifically in the right system, did fine in the main when we had the 4 CB's and played through the middle a lot more in the 4-4-1-1- a bit like Bailey Wright at RB, I'd only consider him as one of 4 CB's, who can quite readily tuck in but in the case of Magnússon isn't a true wide defender or a commanding CB as you say. Also, not that I would advocate changing our shape for him, but he's a lot better in a more counterattacking setup...is how he plays with Iceland and presumably quite often with CSKA. Certainly was when he played well in their 3-0 win at Real Madrid in December.

[Bazooka Joe]

12 hours ago, Pezo said:

You can't keep players that have got too comfortable, you can't keep players that are losing fitness, you can't keep players that keep have there heads turned and you certainly can't keep players that want to leave - it's just not healthy, you need players with something to prove. 

Unfortunately, we have a fair few of those on our books, who, I fear, haven't, and won't be able to prove themselves.

[Pezo]

3 hours ago, Bazooka Joe said:

Unfortunately, we have a fair few of those on our books, who, I fear, haven't, and won't be able to prove themselves.

Then so be it, we let them go. We need to be a club that gives people a chance, otherwise we watch other clubs like Brentford take a chance and either overtake us by having better players or selling better players to fund the purchase of better players.

My experience of us buying players above our station is quite frankly disastrous, Stuart, Bridges, James the list goes on.

[Simon79]

21 hours ago, Mtimmy11 said:

I honestly believe that if cotts had been backed the same as Johnson has ,we may not be in the premier yet but we would not be far off and playing more exciting football than we have for the l last 3 years

 

Simple question, would Cotts of done as well or better than LJ has done with the signings made during LJ’s time in charge? Because people have to realise/understand/accept that LJ is playing to the tune set by the owner, something I wholeheartedly agree with & something it seems Cotts didn’t. To the point that Cotts didn’t fill a bench with youngsters once or twice. I can only imagine the meltdown on OTIB if LJ did the same! COYR

[Mtimmy11]

1 hour ago, ReggyRed said:

LJ is twice the manager cotts is. Grateful for that year he gave us, amazing memories but to start a thread about what might have been if cotts was given more time is laughable. The only place we were heading was back to league one.

Remind me how many promotions ,cups and record losing runs little lee has got again

[Wolf Island]

 

1 hour ago, ReggyRed said:

LJ is twice the manager cotts is. Grateful for that year he gave us, amazing memories but to start a thread about what might have been if cotts was given more time is laughable. The only place we were heading was back to league one.

The thread’s on Cotts not LJ. We were possibly heading back to L1 cos he was not backed in the summer. Would have loved him to have more time and backed. Most enjoyable times at the Gate since the play off final. 

[Mtimmy11]

1 hour ago, Simon79 said:

Simple question, would Cotts of done as well or better than LJ has done with the signings made during LJ’s time in charge? Because people have to realise/understand/accept that LJ is playing to the tune set by the owner, something I wholeheartedly agree with & something it seems Cotts didn’t. To the point that Cotts didn’t fill a bench with youngsters once or twice. I can only imagine the meltdown on OTIB if LJ did the same! COYR

At the time of cotterills apppontment we were starring religation from div 1 in the face.it was Keith dawe and Colin sextone who went and got cotterill on board which led us to our greatest season for many a year.I just think it did not sit right with lansdown after all his flop appointments

[southvillekiddy]

23 hours ago, Westcountry Robins said:

Freeman to Leeds, Ayling already there, Flint at Boro, Joe and Bobby in the PL, Frankie still with us. Just makes me think we should have backed Cotts. All players who came up with us and then have made it in the championship or higher. We were a bit naive coming up from L1 but if we’d got Gray and Maguire like Cotts asked for we’d be in same position or better than we are now. Regrets.

Most of us backed Cotts to really do something with BCFC. Anyone who went to Bradford when we clinched the Title with a 0 -6, would been in no doubt.

You've got to ask why somebody with enormous power at our Club felt threatened by him and got rid??

[Simon79]

57 minutes ago, Mtimmy11 said:

At the time of cotterills apppontment we were starring religation from div 1 in the face.it was Keith dawe and Colin sextone who went and got cotterill on board which led us to our greatest season for many a year.I just think it did not sit right with lansdown after all his flop appointments

Fairly sure Sexstone left a few years before Cotts turned up. Not denying Cotts did a great job, particularly in League One. But my point was that he did not buy into the owners vision for the club moving forward. & let’s face it, there was only ever going to be one winner in that fight! LJ works within the parameters he has been set, something Cotts seemingly was not happy to do. COYR 

[cider-manc]

Cotts inability to accept that 352 wasn't working was his downfall. 

People say he wasn't backed... But he was putting 9 million pound bids in for players like gray... Thats enough to cover Diedhious transfer and wages for pretty much the duration of his contract. Perhaps cotts should of been a bit more savy in his transfer targets?

This was off the back of 2 years of league one earnings during a time that we were desperately trying to sort our books out (from the last time we had overspent trying to push on in the championship).

He also sold very few players and those he did werent for big money- although LJ may not have signed them, the club has recouped over £30 million selling kodjia, Bryan, Reid and flint during his time in charge.

So a couple of championship seasons revenue, players sold for millions and a completed new stadium. Is it really a suprise LJ been able to spend a bit more freely? 

I love cotts for what he did for us in league 1 - he gave us one of our greatest seasons. But he was taking us back down.

[Riaz]

2 hours ago, Mtimmy11 said:

Remind me how many promotions ,cups and record losing runs little lee has got again

Remind me how woeful cotterill was in the championship 

[RobintheRed Red]

On 19/03/2019 at 22:11, Mtimmy11 said:

I honestly believe that if cotts had been backed the same as Johnson has ,we may not be in the premier yet but we would not be far off and playing more exciting football than we have for the l last 3 years

 

Too right

[RobintheRed Red]

16 hours ago, RedSkin said:

Cotts wanted to buy what were more or less proven readymade players.  Players on everyone else's radar including  bigger clubs than us.

We were a big fish in L1 and could do that.  We couldn't pursue that startegy in the Championship.  Were Gayle, Gray, and Maguire ever gonna sign except for ridiculous wages?

The only sustainable strategy is to improve scouting and analysis to spot players earlier than other clubs, then develop these players either in the first team or at younger ages.  We are doing this now.  Cotts obviously wasn't on board with this and this is ultimately the reason why we parted company.

Would make more sense than to buy players that will never play for us such as Engvald Eisa watkins all which seems a waste of money.

[RobintheRed Red]

21 hours ago, Wanderingred said:

We aren't far off now to be fair. And the fact that LJ kept us up with the team SC had heading to league one suggests that maybe it's not quite as clear cut as that. Cotts wasn't backed, I agree but results and performances in the first half of that league one season were truly awful.. people seem to forget that.

Think a lot of that credit was down to the guy that was cotts assistant 

[Mr Popodopolous]

57 minutes ago, RobintheRed Red said:

Would make more sense than to buy players that will never play for us such as Engvald Eisa watkins all which seems a waste of money.

Yes...but it's also worth remembering that we had one of the lowest turnovers in the League at that stage. Would it have been feasible then? Not sure. Now? Yeah.

Possibly we should have tried to keep a nucleus, ease our way in then Cotts could have been afforded the sort of budgets LJ has been- if it meant a season or 2 of slow building and survival, saving money for a big push then- well hindsight I guess, Cotts would have had to have changed to a more pragmatic approach for a season at least in this alternate reality.

[Red Skin]

8 hours ago, RobintheRed Red said:

Would make more sense than to buy players that will never play for us such as Engvald Eisa watkins all which seems a waste of money.

Every signing is a gamble to some extent.  Not every one is gonna be successful. 

Just because a player cost a fortune and is more of a finished article doesn't mean he'll settle or fit the mould.   How many signings have Man Utd made in recent years that haven't worked out?

The potential loss is less on cheaper players.  And wages are more manageable.

Well, I am happy with our current strategy rather than chasing players like Gayle and Gray.  Both seem like ar$eholes to me, which is another reason not to go for Billy Big Bollocks players.

[Riaz]

9 hours ago, RobintheRed Red said:

Would make more sense than to buy players that will never play for us such as Engvald Eisa watkins all which seems a waste of money.

3 poor signings, but lets ignore all the good signings. Maenpaa, Kalas, Webster, Dasilva, Brownhill, O'Dowda, Elliasson, Taylor, Patterson, Abraham.....

Aswell as giving Lloyd Kelly a chance and turning Bobby Reid into a 20 goal a season striker!

[JBFC II]

14 minutes ago, Riaz said:

3 poor signings, but lets ignore all the good signings. Maenpaa, Kalas, Webster, Dasilva, Brownhill, O'Dowda, Elliasson, Taylor, Patterson, Abraham.....

Aswell as giving Lloyd Kelly a chance and turning Bobby Reid into a 20 goal a season striker!

Don't talk rubbish, LJ's signing strategy should be judged off of Gustav Engval, nobody else... 

[RobintheRed Red]

10 hours ago, Riaz said:

3 poor signings, but lets ignore all the good signings. Maenpaa, Kalas, Webster, Dasilva, Brownhill, O'Dowda, Elliasson, Taylor, Patterson, Abraham.....

Aswell as giving Lloyd Kelly a chance and turning Bobby Reid into a 20 goal a season striker!

Patterson dont make me laugh odowda the bloke dont want to be here an Taylor soon to be shipped out there you go three more

[Guest]

10 hours ago, Riaz said:

3 poor signings, but lets ignore all the good signings. Maenpaa, Kalas, Webster, Dasilva, Brownhill, O'Dowda, Elliasson, Taylor, Patterson, Abraham.....

Aswell as giving Lloyd Kelly a chance and turning Bobby Reid into a 20 goal a season striker!

There wont be many of them still here in a few months...then what...we go again.

[JBFC II]

14 hours ago, Bri Stool City said:

There wont be many of them still here in a few months...then what...we go again.

Yep, then we keep on progressing, as we have been doing... 

[Guest]

4 hours ago, JBFC II said:

Yep, then we keep on progressing, as we have been doing... 

First lets see if we reach the heights of last season, then lets see how far we fall; will no doubt be a blip if we fail on both counts.

[Monkeh]

On 20/03/2019 at 21:10, Mtimmy11 said:

At the time of cotterills apppontment we were starring religation from div 1 in the face.it was Keith dawe and Colin sextone who went and got cotterill on board which led us to our greatest season for many a year.I just think it did not sit right with lansdown after all his flop appointments

sexton wasn't even at the club