@julieh

[Bristol Rob]

11 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

This looks pretty official, but presumably it's wrong- which wouldn't be ideal for transparency would it now?

Now, as I said on the other thread this is in West Midlands- may differ between regions, but who knows?

https://www.westmidlands-pcc.gov.uk/media/480525/pcc-decision-006-2018-fees-and-charges-annex-1.pdf

Page 7, tables 9 and 10.

Cannot find the one for 2018 though- will take a look at the Avon and Somerset one if it's available also.

Amazed PCSOs don't get time and a half for a bank holiday!

[Mr Popodopolous]

On 24/03/2019 at 10:39, bs3 said:

Not for the first time there was violent scenes at Ashton Gate yesterday but yet again no arrest,.

Why are the Police reluctant to prosecute other sporting fans but go after football fans with such vigor with early morning raids and announcing it on social media with such glee like you’ve arrested Europe’s most wanted..

It is not my perception that football fans are treated differently to Rugby fans  but it is plain to see it is a matter of fact .

 

Not being rude, but others have doubtless pointed out- and will doubtless point out- there aren't police at rugby, definitely not club rugby. 

Therefore as far as the club goes, literally all that they can do on the day is eject- arrests have to occur later based on CCTV.

There isn't a rugby liaison police officer for the above reason plus history. Julie H would doubtless work with the club on identifying the individual.

Expect a life ban from both grounds for him and surely for him to appear in court, answering the charges laid against him. The reason it differs is covered below...

However on the wider point, I would concur that football fans can and often do get a raw deal- but disorder at club rugby union grounds isn't all that common- when taken as a picture nationally. Perhaps trouble is covered up or just overlooked and not reported on, I honestly don't know

Where you have a stronger case is on unequal laws- why are rugby (and for that matter, cricket) fans allowed to drink all game but football fans restricted as they are?

Why is it the case that most rugby grounds have standing areas, but football in the top 2 divisions specifically forbids it?

Why are there football banning orders- between 3 years minimum, with a custodial sentence applied taking it up to 6 years minimum with a maximum of 10 years depending on offence severity, past history, character etc- but nothing equivalent for rugby or cricket let's say? Or racing, which has seen some trouble of late.

These were laws brought in for historic reasons, possibly as an overreaction but are long overdue reform IMO. Football specific legislation that was created in a different context, at a different time but still applied today- wrong I feel.

@BessexRED Birmingham fans aren't the best behaved,  dunno if there has been history between the 2 as well, potentially useful to have a few v them, Bolton there is no real point, why would you. Certain games it is necessary IMO, but other games absolutely not. Sure you can work out for which games there is a necessity and which games there isn't!

[BessexRED]

Personally has shocked me to learn that Bristol Rugby games don’t have any officers at all on duty, yet there are midweek games down at Ashton Gate against Birmingham, Bolton and the like and there are old bill on police horses marshalling Bedminster high street two hours before the game.

I’d say policing at football is very over zealous in the main, yet when there was a presence needed against Swansea they were busy taking Swansea fans on the tour de Bristol deliberately making them late to the match.

[Super]

5 minutes ago, BessexRED said:

Personally has shocked me to learn that Bristol Rugby games don’t have any officers at all on duty, yet there are midweek games down at Ashton Gate against Birmingham, Bolton and the like and there are old bill on police horses marshalling Bedminster high street two hours before the game.

I’d say policing at football is very over zealous in the main, yet when there was a presence needed against Swansea they were busy taking Swansea fans on the tour de Bristol deliberately making them late to the match.

Why? it's obvious there is a lot more trouble at football matches. 

[Carey 6]

1 hour ago, JulieH said:

Thank you for this

i have contacted the safety officer for the stadium to start enqs regarding this incident to ascertain facts regarding everything that happened 

An investigation is taking place and as soon as I can I will update you all.

it is correct that my role is football based however I have an * expert* knowledge of these type of offences and how they can be dealt with so it will be initially looked at by myself .

you are not correct on police bias of rugby v football, at least not in this force. Everything reported to us from the rugby has been dealt with in the same way as everything that gets reported from football.

prosecution decisions are based on offence, public interest and previouss convictions  and it is on these points alone that a decision is made as to disposal of individuals at both football and rugby 

happy to discuss further at fans meeting next week 

When there was trouble a few years ago between Bristol and Exeter, were the fans involved subject to dawn raids by yourselves? 

Were pictures of their faces given to the Bristol Post to print on the front/in their paper? I don't remember seeing anything, perhaps someone on here can prove me wrong.

I also wonder if after international rugby games, anyone causing trouble in town get Rugby banning orders? The Police like to warn football fans every time a tournament comes around that trouble will result in an FBO.

[Mr Popodopolous]

12 minutes ago, Carey 6 said:

When there was trouble a few years ago between Bristol and Exeter, were the fans involved subject to dawn raids by yourselves? 

Were pictures of their faces given to the Bristol Post to print on the front/in their paper? I don't remember seeing anything, perhaps someone on here can prove me wrong.

I also wonder if after international rugby games, anyone causing trouble in town get Rugby banning orders? The Police like to warn football fans every time a tournament comes around that trouble will result in an FBO from their club. 

You likely know the answer, but anyway- they don't exist.

Club bans differ from FBOs too. FBOs are for each and every ground in the country, plus involving England games in terms of handing in passports, reporting to police stations etc. I don't know the specifics though, just the general points! These are issued by courts

Club bans issued by the club itself and are from that home ground- however some safety officers seek to try it on with trying to ban them from away grounds where said club are playing- but they're on shaky ground with that latter one. FSF Faircop is one to contact for that sort of thing- both in fact. 

[Carey 6]

8 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

You likely know the answer, but anyway- they don't exist.

Club bans differ from FBOs too. FBOs are for each and every ground in the country, plus involving England games in terms of handing in passports, reporting to police stations etc. I don't know the specifics though, just the general points! These are issued by courts

Club bans issued by the club itself and are from that home ground- however some safety officers seek to try it on with trying to ban them from away grounds where said club are playing- but they're on shaky ground with that latter one. FSF Faircop is one to contact for that sort of thing- both in fact. 

Oh I genuinely didn't know they didn't exist

And thanks for clearing that up as well, the police always look for a FBO to be put in place when someones found guilty of an offence at a football ground, I've edited the original post now!

Still the point stands, the two sets of fans supporting each sport are definitely treated differently & I don't believe Julies post saying that trouble with either is dealt with in the same way, I look forward to her response to my question. If there were dawn raids and I missed the news regarding them, then I will admit to being wrong!

[Mr Popodopolous]

14 minutes ago, Carey 6 said:

Oh I genuinely didn't know they didn't exist

And thanks for clearing that up as well, the police always look for a FBO to be put in place when someones found guilty of an offence at a football ground, I've edited the original post now!

Still the point stands, the two sets of fans supporting each sport are definitely treated differently & I don't believe Julies post saying that trouble with either is dealt with in the same way, I look forward to her response to my question. If there were dawn raids and I missed the news regarding them, then I will admit to being wrong!

Ah apologies, assumed you knew for some reason.

Definite differences in treatment for sure- there are or were historical reasons why this may have had some justification, but implementation of reform and bringing in parity of treatment? Well overdue IMO.

[Bar BS3]

22 minutes ago, Carey 6 said:

Oh I genuinely didn't know they didn't exist

And thanks for clearing that up as well, the police always look for a FBO to be put in place when someones found guilty of an offence at a football ground, I've edited the original post now!

Still the point stands, the two sets of fans supporting each sport are definitely treated differently & I don't believe Julies post saying that trouble with either is dealt with in the same way, I look forward to her response to my question. If there were dawn raids and I missed the news regarding them, then I will admit to being wrong!

Most people that I know who go to football are treated in the same way as those who go to Rugby. 

Granted, we aren’t deemed as responsible enough to partake in an alcoholic beverage, whilst in view of the pitch, which is a joke, although not something I would change for football. 

Most football & rugby fans go to the game, watch the game, have a few beers and head home. This difference only occurs when people start, at best, acting like idiots and at worst, violently attack other members of the public. Why are people concerning themselves with the “rights” of those idiots, who shed a bad light on all decent supporters and deserve to be dealt with as the courts see fit. 

Strangely, most fans don’t suffer Dawn raids or pictures of themselves in the Bristol post, because most don’t act like the morons who give reason for this action. 

[Mr Popodopolous]

5 minutes ago, Bar BS3 said:

Most people that I know who go to football are treated in the same way as those who go to Rugby. 

Granted, we aren’t deemed as responsible enough to partake in an alcoholic beverage, whilst in view of the pitch, which is a joke, although not something I would change for football. 

Most football & rugby fans go to the game, watch the game, have a few beers and head home. This difference only occurs when people start, at best, acting like idiots and at worst, violently attack other members of the public. Why are people concerning themselves with the “rights” of those idiots, who shed a bad light on all decent supporters and deserve to be dealt with as the courts see fit. 

Strangely, most fans don’t suffer Dawn raids or pictures of themselves in the Bristol post, because most don’t act like the morons who give reason for this action. 

You forgot all-seater stadia- enforced top 2 levels at football and while perhaps a necessary evil at the time, no need now IMO.

Also why shouldn't there be a rugby or cricket banning order e.g.? Yes it would very seldom- and I'm basing this on history, precedent, national picture- need to be used, but why not? Or, scrap the football one and some of the legislation that was specifically designed for football.

Both sides of this argument have some merit, but in addition to the drink issue which you highlight, there's a couple above.

[Septic Peg]

As far as I can see, there should be a minimum of at least one Plod on duty for rugby games. Imagine we had no paramedics in the stadium for any event (football/rugby/concert) and with 20k people, it's about prevention.

20k people gathering and you tell me not one single person has a row/fisticuffs/handbags etc?

Nah. Just like with 20k people, there is going to be someone poorly unfortunately that requires medical attention.

Dave Storr might be a safety officer but this guy really doesn't do much to earn his bread now does he?

[BessexRED]

20 minutes ago, Bar BS3 said:

Most people that I know who go to football are treated in the same way as those who go to Rugby. 

Granted, we aren’t deemed as responsible enough to partake in an alcoholic beverage, whilst in view of the pitch, which is a joke, although not something I would change for football. 

Most football & rugby fans go to the game, watch the game, have a few beers and head home. This difference only occurs when people start, at best, acting like idiots and at worst, violently attack other members of the public. Why are people concerning themselves with the “rights” of those idiots, who shed a bad light on all decent supporters and deserve to be dealt with as the courts see fit. 

Strangely, most fans don’t suffer Dawn raids or pictures of themselves in the Bristol post, because most don’t act like the morons who give reason for this action. 

I get what you’re saying but I think you’re blowing it out of proportion somewhat. How often do you see cases of scarfers being attacked when innocently walking the street, or blokes with their young children facing an attack from a group of rivalling football fans?

It’s extremely rare in this country, generally if there’s a scrap at football it’s between two groups who are both up for it. In the case of the Swansea incident if you wanted to remove yourself from it you could’ve done very easily, likewise if you wanted to go and have a pop it was equally easy.

I’m not defending it but violence at football is often blown out of proportion and in every case there always seems to be some fabricated story of a child/woman/disabled person being hurt by it without any substance or proof.

 

[Bar BS3]

19 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

You forgot all-seater stadia- enforced top 2 levels at football and while perhaps a necessary evil at the time, no need now IMO.

Also why shouldn't there be a rugby or cricket banning order e.g.? Yes it would very seldom- and I'm basing this on history, precedent, national picture- need to be used, but why not? Or, scrap the football one and some of the legislation that was specifically designed for football.

Both sides of this argument have some merit, but in addition to the drink issue which you highlight, there's a couple above.

I was talking more about the way that people convicted of trouble are treated. The simplest option is to just go and watch the game and behave, whichever sport it is..!

[Bar BS3]

7 minutes ago, BessexRED said:

I get what you’re saying but I think you’re blowing it out of proportion somewhat. How often do you see cases of scarfers being attacked when innocently walking the street, or blokes with their young children facing an attack from a group of rivalling football fans?

It’s extremely rare in this country, generally if there’s a scrap at football it’s between two groups who are both up for it. In the case of the Swansea incident if you wanted to remove yourself from it you could’ve done very easily, likewise if you wanted to go and have a pop it was equally easy.

I’m not defending it but violence at football is often blown out of proportion and in every case there always seems to be some fabricated story of a child/woman/disabled person being hurt by it without any substance or proof.

 

I agree. My point was that people seem to be arguing the case for the guy who’s been convicted, on the basis that a rugby fan wouldn’t be treated the same way. 

Well, most football fans are treated in much the same way as Rugby fans (yes, there are some differences in certain aspects, which I don’t agree with. At all!) but my point was that if you go to the game, watch it and behave, then the 2 are generally pretty similar. 

If you decide to go around punching people, then stop moaning about the consequences.  

[phantom]

2 hours ago, JulieH said:

happy to discuss further at fans meeting next week 

Hi @JulieH what is this fans meeting you refer to?

[Mr Popodopolous]

16 minutes ago, Bar BS3 said:

I was talking more about the way that people convicted of trouble are treated. The simplest option is to just go and watch the game and behave, whichever sport it is..!

Fair.

[Sweeneys Penalties]

might be me, but I cant find a word of this incident reported in the Bristol Post

[Natchfever]

35 minutes ago, Bar BS3 said:

I was talking more about the way that people convicted of trouble are treated. The simplest option is to just go and watch the game and behave, whichever sport it is..!

I get what you're saying but what about the situation when you are having a beer in a pub on the way to a match and come under a sustained attack from large numbers of opposing fans.

There is an ongoing issue where 15 City fans had just that experience and yet find themselves in Crown Court even though it was filmed from a balcony opposite and clearly shows exactly what happened

My point being sometimes with the best will in the world you may not have a choice in the matter not that OB give a shit about that.

[Mr Popodopolous]

6 minutes ago, Loon plage said:

I get what you're saying but what about the situation when you are having a beer in a pub on the way to a match and come under a sustained attack from large numbers of opposing fans.

There is an ongoing issue where 15 City fans had just that experience and yet find themselves in Crown Court even though it was filmed from a balcony opposite and clearly shows exactly what happened

My point being sometimes with the best will in the world you may not have a choice in the matter not that OB give a shit about that.

It is probably unfortunately a bit late now, but did they get in touch with football specialist lawyers- FSF FairCop, or Football Legal?

Could be that nothing could have been done for them- I don't know the ins and outs or even of that case, but definitely people to keep in mind. Did great work for a mate of mine a while ago.

I believe initial legal advice from Football Legal is free.

[Natchfever]

2 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

It is probably unfortunately a bit late now, but did they get in touch with football specialist lawyers- FSF FairCop, or Football Legal?

Could be that nothing could have been done for them- I don't know the ins and outs or even of that case, but definitely people to keep in mind. Did great work for a mate of mine a while ago.

I'm not sure Mr P I think it was a shock that the cases were referred to Crown.

No doubt someone on here will know.

[Mr Popodopolous]

5 minutes ago, Loon plage said:

I'm not sure Mr P I think it was a shock that the cases were referred to Crown.

No doubt someone on here will know.

Crown is the highest isn't it LP?

Like I say, unsure what could be done at this stage in terms of contacting them, if it's an ongoing case- not a lawyer  but definitely to bear in mind for the future. If initial legal advice from Football Legal is indeed free- well like I say no harm in those who have been accused approaching them and making initial inquiries- probably more of use for future cases than ongoing ones though.

[Dollymarie]

40 minutes ago, phantom said:

Hi @JulieH what is this fans meeting you refer to?

Monthly SC&T meeting next Wednesday. 

[Natchfever]

2 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Crown is the highest isn't it LP?

Like I say, unsure what could be done at this stage in terms of contacting them, if it's an ongoing case- not a lawyer  but definitely to bear in mind for the future. If initial legal advice from Football Legal is indeed free- well like I say no harm in those who have been accused approaching them and making initial inquiries.

Cheers I think it will have been noted.

[Bar BS3]

13 minutes ago, Loon plage said:

I get what you're saying but what about the situation when you are having a beer in a pub on the way to a match and come under a sustained attack from large numbers of opposing fans.

There is an ongoing issue where 15 City fans had just that experience and yet find themselves in Crown Court even though it was filmed from a balcony opposite and clearly shows exactly what happened

My point being sometimes with the best will in the world you may not have a choice in the matter not that OB give a shit about that.

Of course there are always exceptions. But the group who instigated what you are describing kind of sum up exactly the kind of moron that I’m referring too. 

I think anyone has the right to defend themselves and/or fight back. That’s very different to what this “Greenslade” guy was doing though.

 

[CotswoldRed]

2 hours ago, Bar BS3 said:

Most people that I know who go to football are treated in the same way as those who go to Rugby. 

Granted, we aren’t deemed as responsible enough to partake in an alcoholic beverage, whilst in view of the pitch, which is a joke, although not something I would change for football. 

Most football & rugby fans go to the game, watch the game, have a few beers and head home. This difference only occurs when people start, at best, acting like idiots and at worst, violently attack other members of the public. Why are people concerning themselves with the “rights” of those idiots, who shed a bad light on all decent supporters and deserve to be dealt with as the courts see fit. 

Strangely, most fans don’t suffer Dawn raids or pictures of themselves in the Bristol post, because most don’t act like the morons who give reason for this action. 

Rugby fans don't include much of society's low life. The stats bear this out. 

Football would improve massively if the punishments were much much harsher IMO. I behave myself so I'm not at risk of ending up in clink. Neither is anyone else if they behave like respectable people. 

Violence of any sort - let's start with a 5 year prison term and a £5000 fine. Doesn't worry me - I won't be receiving one. 

With such punishment on offer I reckon it would be safe to reintroduce drinking in the stands. 

[Bar BS3]

9 minutes ago, CotswoldRed said:

Rugby fans don't include much of society's low life. The stats bear this out. 

Football would improve massively if the punishments were much much harsher IMO. I behave myself so I'm not at risk of ending up in clink. Neither is anyone else if they behave like respectable people. 

Violence of any sort - let's start with a 5 year prison term and a £5000 fine. Doesn't worry me - I won't be receiving one. 

With such punishment on offer I reckon it would be safe to reintroduce drinking in the stands. 

It would be interesting to see if (before I say it, I am NOT suggesting for a second that people receiving benefits are low life!) the threat of anyone convicted of any crime, let alone football related, had any benefit entitlement stopped, if it would deter the type of individual who are demographically most likely to act violently..?!

I could be completely wrong, but the prisons are full enough. There’s no room to lock people up on harsh minimum sentences, which the tax payer ultimately pays for. 

For the record, I receive a small amount of universal credit payment, due to being a single working dad. 

EDIT: I feel I should elaborate....

I believe that most recent pole pole, avoid breaking the law, partly because they know it is wrong, but also partly due to the consequences & repercussions if convicted. Many people may lose their job/career, if convicted of football violence (or many other crimes, but keeping this relevant to the discussion)

People without jobs, mortgages etc, possibly don’t have the deterrent of losing what they have got, so withdraw the tax payer funded assistance that they do receive, if they can’t abide by the rules of our society. 

[Red-Robbo]

19 minutes ago, CotswoldRed said:

Rugby fans don't include much of society's low life. The stats bear this out. 

Football would improve massively if the punishments were much much harsher IMO. I behave myself so I'm not at risk of ending up in clink. Neither is anyone else if they behave like respectable people. 

Violence of any sort - let's start with a 5 year prison term and a £5000 fine. Doesn't worry me - I won't be receiving one. 

With such punishment on offer I reckon it would be safe to reintroduce drinking in the stands. 

Reasonable, but you'd have to thoroughly revamp the list of football offences, as some are ridiculous. Even officer Julie - speaking in a personal not professional capacity - has acknowledged that the offence of trespassing on a pitch is too all-encompassing and needs to be refined to only punish those intent on disrupting the match.

 

 

[Bar BS3]

8 minutes ago, Red-Robbo said:

Reasonable, but you'd have to thoroughly revamp the list of football offences, as some are ridiculous. Even officer Julie - speaking in a personal not professional capacity - has acknowledged that the offence of trespassing on a pitch is too all-encompassing and needs to be refined to only punish those intent on disrupting the match.

 

 

I agree with your point, but why would they change that law..?

Why would anybody see fit to go into the pitch, without the intention of causing some issue or other, apart from a) safety evacuation from the stands, or b) a mass celebratory pitch invasion, which whilst discouraged, of course, is generally accepted in exceptional circumstances, as long as people behave in the manner expected of joyful celebration and not using it as an excuse to act like a ***t..! 

[Red-Robbo]

2 minutes ago, Bar BS3 said:

I agree with your point, but why would they change that law..?

Why would anybody see fit to go into the pitch, without the intention of causing some issue or other, apart from a) safety evacuation from the stands, or b) a mass celebratory pitch invasion, which whilst discouraged, of course, is generally accepted in exceptional circumstances, as long as people behave in the manner expected of joyful celebration and not using it as an excuse to act like a ***t..! 

It's generally accepted, but technically illegal. You could get done for it, although I suspect we've all done it. I think that bit needs to go.

[Mr Popodopolous]

The aspect of that law where it can get messy- as highlighted lately is at grounds where the pitch is really close to the stand. Think Bournemouth, hell perhaps even think the Atyeo when it is full. I was in the far end of the Dolman at the Wolves game- the one last season where things began to all unravel  Anyway noticed a few Wolves fans on the pitch or close to it when they got their last minute winner but it certainly didn't look like hooliganism etc.

More common at smaller grounds, but when there is a last minute winner and a surge forward (most common with away fans)- people can very easily, often through no or at least little fault of their own- end up right by or even slightly on the pitch. That is vastly different to a premeditated or even spontaneous pitch invader during the game.

Even ejections would be too harsh for that, let alone banning orders IMO.