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Honesty time


PFree

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I think the Fulham approach was brave but misguided. I’d rather see a club give a chance, largely, to the players who got them promoted, with the same level of change you would normally have between seasons. At least then if you get relegated, you haven’t destroyed the infrastructure of the personnel. For the same reason, I think they should have stayed with the manager that got them up. Burnley’s approach was far more mature and far sighted in that sense.

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2 hours ago, Super said:

I would hope we would give it a good go at staying up like Cardiff have. Huddersfield have been pathetic and just accepted relegation from the start of the season, I wouldnt want us to be like them.

Cardiff have had a go at staying up, and out of the 3 have done ok.  However i don't think any of the three have bought very wisely.....especially Fulham.  If we do go up [though i think it will be next season] I think we will have learned a lot from the approaches of last seasons trio, and i believe we'd do reasonably well, but even if we were to come straight back down.................what an experience!! And the Parachute payments, of course will come in handy!

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Just now, maxjak said:

Cardiff have had a go at staying up, and out of the 3 have done ok.  However i don't think any of the three have bought very wisely.....especially Fulham.  If we do go up [though i think it will be next season] I think we will have learned a lot from the approaches of last seasons trio, and i believe we'd do reasonably well, but even if we were to come straight back down.................what an experience!! And the Parachute payments, of course will come in handy!

Agree with that. Fulham have made a mess of things and have spent lots of money. 

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3 hours ago, PFree said:

I believe that like many on here, we didn't expect to be anywhere near the top-six at this stage of the season - I was one predicting a relegation scrap being honest.

I would also argue that we aren't quite ready to go up though neither?

Let's say we were able to sneak up, can anybody see us staying there for more than a season? Yes, in some senses it would be good fun and we would all be delighted to get there, but when you are getting turned over heavily every week, would it be that enjoyable? I work in Cardiff and with many CCFC fans and for both seasons they have been up there, it's been pretty sole destroying for them - it's simply a case if they can get adequate results against the 'small clubs' and enough points to 'just survive'. If we were to go up, I have no doubt SL would also spend conservatively, he wants to run the club commercially and rightly so I guess.

My point is that we are absolutely going the right way and providing we build further each season, the Premiership will come. We are 'big enough' to complete but need to get there in a position of strength and where we can hopefully sustain our time there (Like a Burnley, Bournemouth or Watford of this world). We are up against bigger sides at the top at the moment, many of whom have better squads and resources, and who are better equipped - let's be honest that we are punching above our weight and over-performing.

I have never been an LJ fan, and being honest, kept my eye out in the press last season hoping that he had gone - but, I have to say that the progress being made is highly positive and my opinion has undoubtedly changed. 

Here's hoping the progress continues but should we miss out on the play-offs, lets recognise what has been achieved..

Please,wake me up when your finished.

Are you Robbored in disguise?

 

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5 hours ago, Bar BS3 said:

There also has to be an argument made for our record against Premier league teams over the past 18 months. 

I know that they were “one off” games and very different to the relentless rigours of a league campaign, but it must read something like, without looking it up.... P8 W5 D0 L3. And that includes 2 fixtures, home & away against the best team in the country.  

Which both games going into extra time we were drawing and certainly in the 2nd leg had thrown everyone forward to try and get a winner

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2 hours ago, Robert the bruce said:

Please,wake me up when your finished.

Are you Robbored in disguise?

 

Thanks for the response Robert, I apologise for thinking this was a discussion forum but perhaps that is lost on you hence the well thought out response and contribution to the thread. Was there really any need to be facetious.

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18 minutes ago, maxjak said:

Cardiff have had a go at staying up, and out of the 3 have done ok.  However i don't think any of the three have bought very wisely.....especially Fulham.  If we do go up [though i think it will be next season] I think we will have learned a lot from the approaches of last seasons trio, and i believe we'd do reasonably well, but even if we were to come straight back down.................what an experience!! And the Parachute payments, of course will come in handy!

I think one of the big differences between giving it a good go and getting completely turned over each week is the manner in which you set up. Cardiff played pragmatic, organised football based on their limited ability. This made them hard to break down and it wasn't too dissimilar to how they got promoted in 2017/18. Fulham, on the other hand, played expansive football in the Championship and turned over many teams. This season they've tried to play in a similar way and have been out-footballed by most sides. Sometimes being a good football side does not equip you well for the Premier League.*

Most of this season we've kept quite tight and organised. I'd like to think that this would be in our favour and would set us in good stead for a season of defending in the Premier League. One thing that is certain, we would struggle to score regularly in the Premier League given our lack of goals this season. Arguably we have scored enough goals given that we have acquired enough points to position us where we are, but we would struggle to unlock a defence regularly.

*A couple of caveats to this - if your squad has a significantly better footballing ability than the rest of the league (ie Wolves, Newcastle etc) this is often the case. 

 

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7 hours ago, PFree said:

I believe that like many on here, we didn't expect to be anywhere near the top-six at this stage of the season - I was one predicting a relegation scrap being honest.

I would also argue that we aren't quite ready to go up though neither?

Let's say we were able to sneak up, can anybody see us staying there for more than a season? Yes, in some senses it would be good fun and we would all be delighted to get there, but when you are getting turned over heavily every week, would it be that enjoyable? I work in Cardiff and with many CCFC fans and for both seasons they have been up there, it's been pretty sole destroying for them - it's simply a case if they can get adequate results against the 'small clubs' and enough points to 'just survive'. If we were to go up, I have no doubt SL would also spend conservatively, he wants to run the club commercially and rightly so I guess.

My point is that we are absolutely going the right way and providing we build further each season, the Premiership will come. We are 'big enough' to complete but need to get there in a position of strength and where we can hopefully sustain our time there (Like a Burnley, Bournemouth or Watford of this world). We are up against bigger sides at the top at the moment, many of whom have better squads and resources, and who are better equipped - let's be honest that we are punching above our weight and over-performing.

I have never been an LJ fan, and being honest, kept my eye out in the press last season hoping that he had gone - but, I have to say that the progress being made is highly positive and my opinion has undoubtedly changed. 

Here's hoping the progress continues but should we miss out on the play-offs, lets recognise what has been achieved..

I disagree. Last season we lost 3 of our best players. LJ has done very well in replacing them. But with our transfer kitty always likely to leave us behind the likes of Derby, Sheffield United , etc , if the same occurs this season we will be able to replace them. We have to take opportunities when they present themselves. Not rely on a continual improvement that is far from a given. Whether the team is good enough IF we got promoted with sensible spending once you are on the Premiership gravy train then financially we would be a lot stronger.

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8 hours ago, Robbored said:

Promoted Championship clubs via the pray off final very often struggle to survive in the PL and if City get up via that route we would undoubtedly struggle. 

Actually, up to last season, (not including this season) 15 teams who got promoted via the play offs were relegated in their first season. Whilst 17 who finished champions or runners up were. 

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While I wouldn't expect us to follow Wolves & be competing for 7th in our first season, relegation after one season is not a given. However don't follow the Fulham route and splash all your cash on players who haven't played in the Premier League.

Things that are needed by all promoted teams are a  resolute defence, a decent playmaker, and a forward who can score at that level, which is where the acquisition of 3 or 4 top notch players will cost but also make the difference. Both Cardiff and Huddersfield are lacking decent strikers and it shows. Fulham have Mitrovic but no one in midfield of high enough quality, the surprise being that Tom Cairney hasn't really made the step up, plus a woeful defence.

Norwich will probably make a decent fist of it next season, if Pukki can keep scoring and with Krul in goal. However they will still need to strengthen their defence and add to their midfield. Plus they are unlikely to blow the budget, given recent experience. 

As for us, the goalkeeping situation (Max's heroics on Saturday aside) needs sorting and we need more speed and attacking intent in midfield. We also need a natural striker, who can score 15+ goals at that level.This could be the hardest player to find and would undoubtedly cost the most.

And finally if we did go straight back down then at least we would have the experience and the parachute payments to have a better chance of promotion again.

Seriously, if you look at some of the clubs in the Premier League like Bournemouth, Watford and Brighton, are we really suggesting that we couldn't compete with them, given the changes at the club, the ground, the backing of Mr Lansdown, and generating support from the 7th largest city in England?!

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7 hours ago, Super said:

Agree with that. Fulham have made a mess of things and have spent lots of money. 

Out of the 100 million Fulham spent on new players.........I understand only one of them had ever played in the English Premier League previously, that's a massive dice roll, and not very smart.  Hindsight is easy, but Fulham's forward planning sucked. ?

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12 hours ago, cidercity1987 said:

Just need to check Burnley to see what is more than possible with the right management. Promoted, relegated with money, strengthened, promoted, consolidated.

No reason in the world we can't do that whether we are 'ready' at the moment or not.

Agree. Burnley is the model to follow. I would hope that the club - and the fans - would see that and stick with LJ even if we were relegated from the PL, as Burnley did with Dyche.

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We comfortably compete in one off games against premier league sides now. I don’t believe there is much difference from the bottom half of the premier league to the top half of the championship talent wise. There is never a right or wrong time to go up. Huddersfield weren’t a great promoted side and had 2 years of prem football. They will be in good shape coming down now. 

13 minutes ago, eardun said:

Agree. Burnley is the model to follow. I would hope that the club - and the fans - would see that and stick with LJ even if we were relegated from the PL, as Burnley did with Dyche.

Brighton not a bad model either. Have kept their core players together and not spent outrageous fees or wages. Probably staying up for a third consecutive year of premier league football. Think what Burnley and Brighton have proven is have a philosophy and stick to it. 

If we were promoted, I’d like to see us target some of the best u25 championship players. With a few foreign recruits(value for money is insane when you get it right) to add to the mix. If it all gels you have a good young team that will get a second year in the premier league. If not, you still have a young core who are championship proven. 

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21 hours ago, MigratedRobin said:

If we go up that would be amazing. If we don't then at least we look like proper contenders in this division, which should hopefully put us on the radar for better players in the summer to strengthen the squad. It seems like a win/win to me.

i get that but we would also be at risk of losing our better players again and you can't keep doing that.

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We're improving season on season as more of the young players are coming through (like Elliasson and Kelly this season). If we could sign a regular goalscorer and a 'playmaker' midfielder then next season we'll be challenging near the top, we're not quite the finished article yet.

If and when we get promoted there's no reason why we shouldn't emulate Bournemouth in the long run if things are managed properly although surviving the first season will be touch and go at best.

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20 hours ago, Bar BS3 said:

Actually, up to last season, (not including this season) 15 teams who got promoted via the play offs were relegated in their first season. Whilst 17 who finished champions or runners up were. 

On the theme of lies,  damn lies and statistics - only one team is promoted via play offs and two via,  umm,  the top 2. So given that figure of 15 is divided by 1, and 17 is divided by 2, the failure rate for play off winners is in fact higher.

What's the break down for specifically 2nd place teams being relegated first season and 1st place teams being relegated first season? 

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11 minutes ago, ukneil said:

On the theme of lies,  damn lies and statistics - only one team is promoted via play offs and two via,  umm,  the top 2. So given that figure of 15 is divided by 1, and 17 is divided by 2, the failure rate for play off winners is in fact higher.

What's the break down for specifically 2nd place teams being relegated first season and 1st place teams being relegated first season? 

Yes, I’m aware of the ratio differential, but that doesn’t change the fact that more who have been promoted automatically ( grated, there are double the number of teams) get relegated in their first season. 

It’s nota very fair comparison, I agree, but it does show that going up Automatically can just as easily lead to coming straight back down. 

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