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Balon G'urt


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Balon G'urt  

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6 hours ago, REDOXO said:

Not for me. Best goal scorer? Well you can take your pick. Messi Ronaldo Pele Rush Lineker even Rooney, for a few. 

All decent forwards. The rest is academic!

Jimmy Greave’s goal scoring record is pretty exceptional 

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23 minutes ago, spudski said:

What they like in goal or defending?

All depends on what position you play imo.

Best Striker? Best defender? Best Goalkeeper etc,etc.

Best goalkeeper - Lev Yashin, Gordon Banks, 

Defender - Bobby Moore, Frank Becanbauer. Paulo Maldini.

Best striker -  Pele, Messi.

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1 hour ago, One BCFC said:

Jeez does no one else think the defenders from the 1960s were just awful? Whenever i've seen ckips its defenders just backing off their opponents and wondering about. 

Brazil goal vs Italy in 1970. Prime example. Most overrated goal of all time. 

No. Bobby Moore was simply a superb player in any era. Worth any young player studying. 

However defending even twenty years ago cannot truly be compared to now. The rules have changed and that has meant defending itself has changed significantly. 

Football evolves. Mexico 1970 saw games played at altitude and in temperatures we in this Country do not play in. The final  was played in both. The 1986 Word cup in Mexico was similar. Football adapts to its environment.

The Brazil goal vs Italy in 1970. Prime example of building from the back and a full back playing the full length of the pitch to score  - A modern goal.

 

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The total football of early 90s barca never scored 100 goals in a League season. 

The current barca team has only failed to score at least 100 league goals 3 times in the last decade and on the those 3 occasions they didn’t they managed 94, 98 and 99.

The big questions are - is this because of messi? Or is it simply that he doesn't get wiped out by a 'leveller' in the opening 5 minutes?

True, you don't see a vinnie jones smashing into a Steve Mcmahon to win an FA Cup anymore. So perhaps the number of goals scored by modern great players is always likely to be higher than those of the past.

However - the skills and tricks of the modern game would destroy most defenders of the 60s/70s/80s. Look at the moment the Cruyff turn was first used... The defender Olsson doesn't have a clue where he is never mind Cruyff! Even if he had wanted to kick Cruyff off the ball he couldnt! This is a turn that is now used regularly by modern goalkeepers!! The modern game is hands down more athletic and more skillful. 

Obviously the arguement is that the likes of Best etc would learn and adapt these skills if they were part of the modern game but the truth is we just don't know. We can only compare what we see and what we know, and messi has far more skills and tricks up his sleeves than any of the great players of the past and the majority of the present. 

Add in his ridiculous statistics and you have the greatest attacking player of all time imo.

 

 

 

 

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8 minutes ago, cider-manc said:

The total football of early 90s barca never scored 100 goals in a League season. 

The current barca team has only failed to score at least 100 league goals 3 times in the last decade and on the those 3 occasions they didn’t they managed 94, 98 and 99.

The big questions are - is this because of messi? Or is it simply that he doesn't get wiped out by a 'leveller' in the opening 5 minutes?

True, you don't see a vinnie jones smashing into a Steve Mcmahon to win an FA Cup anymore. So perhaps the number of goals scored by modern great players is always likely to be higher than those of the past.

However - the skills and tricks of the modern game would destroy most defenders of the 60s/70s/80s. Look at the moment the Cruyff turn was first used... The defender Olsson doesn't have a clue where he is never mind Cruyff! Even if he had wanted to kick Cruyff off the ball he couldnt! This is a turn that is now used regularly by modern goalkeepers!! The modern game is hands down more athletic and more skillful. 

Obviously the arguement is that the likes of Best etc would learn and adapt these skills if they were part of the modern game but the truth is we just don't know. We can only compare what we see and what we know, and messi has far more skills and tricks up his sleeves than any of the great players of the past and the majority of the present. 

Add in his ridiculous statistics and you have the greatest attacking player of all time imo.

 

 

 

 

There is a video on youtube called Pele did it first. Pele did the Cruyff term before err … Pele seemingly was performing the same skills as todays players at a exceptional level fifty years ago. The only skill apparently missing is the knuckleball which cannot be performed with a traditional football due to the aerodynamics (panelling) of the ball. Pele was also mentally strong and physically a hard man. 

A question would be could Messi survive in the physicality of the game of old? Neymar performs many of the skills Pele possessed. Could he survive and display that skill level?  Its a silly hypothetical but my view is they would both have to adapt to the physical demands (fouling) or they would wiped out very regularly.  

 

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10 hours ago, David Brent said:

Doesn’t have to be like for like. If he thinks Messi is the greatest ever then that’s what he thinks ...

You’ve no idea how either player would do in a different era.

Messi is the greatest of all time. We’re privileged to be able to watch him.

 

Contradicted yourself a lil bit there 

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3 hours ago, Super said:

Maybe compared to the world greats but one of the best british strikers.

 

Yeah you're right, it is a very good record for Liverpool (certainly the first time around). I was looking at his overall career, which was less impressive, but that's probably unfair.

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11 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

There is a video on youtube called Pele did it first. Pele did the Cruyff term before err … Pele seemingly was performing the same skills as todays players at a exceptional level fifty years ago. The only skill apparently missing is the knuckleball which cannot be performed with a traditional football due to the aerodynamics (panelling) of the ball. Pele was also mentally strong and physically a hard man. 

A question would be could Messi survive in the physicality of the game of old? Neymar performs many of the skills Pele possessed. Could he survive and display that skill level?  Its a silly hypothetical but my view is they would both have to adapt to the physical demands (fouling) or they would wiped out very regularly.  

 

I did not know that.

If that is the case i stand corrected.

Perhaps the biggest difference is that media is global nowadays so you can see and then imitate everything! 

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55 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

No. Bobby Moore was simply a superb player in any era. Worth any young player studying. 

However defending even twenty years ago cannot truly be compared to now. The rules have changed and that has meant defending itself has changed significantly. 

Football evolves. Mexico 1970 saw games played at altitude and in temperatures we in this Country do not play in. The final  was played in both. The 1986 Word cup in Mexico was similar. Football adapts to its environment.

The Brazil goal vs Italy in 1970. Prime example of building from the back and a full back playing the full length of the pitch to score  - A modern goal.

 

That's one defender who was outstanding. As was Beckenbauer. But those two were good footballers, which was rare for defenders back then. However generally defences today are vastly superior to the general defender from back then. Even in City games today, against a well drilled side it can be very hard to break a team down no matter their quality. 

The Brazil goal was not a good example of it. The Italians simply did not apply any pressure and they were allowed to pass freely across the potch. That would not happen in a World Cup final today at any altitude. A good example of a team building from the back was Barcelona from 2008-2012. Mastered it.

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1 hour ago, cider-manc said:

I did not know that.

If that is the case i stand corrected.

Perhaps the biggest difference is that media is global nowadays so you can see and then imitate everything! 

 

 

Its worth a watch. 

1 hour ago, One BCFC said:

That's one defender who was outstanding. As was Beckenbauer. But those two were good footballers, which was rare for defenders back then. However generally defences today are vastly superior to the general defender from back then. Even in City games today, against a well drilled side it can be very hard to break a team down no matter their quality. 

The Brazil goal was not a good example of it. The Italians simply did not apply any pressure and they were allowed to pass freely across the potch. That would not happen in a World Cup final today at any altitude. A good example of a team building from the back was Barcelona from 2008-2012. Mastered it.

You have ignored the points made.

So defenders back then were also outstanding!!

A good example of team building from the back is the 70's Netherlands. That idea of total football from the seventies is Barcelona's roots. Rinus Michels and Cruyff. It is an evolution of ideas in line with developments in the game. Many of todays defenders are not particularly good defenders because the game requires universality - defenders who are footballers.

Yes if a World Cup was played at altitude today and in similar conditions teams at least would drop off and press less. It would not matter if you possessed fitness levels that put you in the unique percentile that is what heat and altitude does to players. 

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6 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

 

Its worth a watch. 

You have ignored the points made.

So defenders back then were also outstanding!!

A good example of team building from the back is the 70's Netherlands. That idea of total football from the seventies is Barcelona's roots. Rinus Michels and Cruyff. It is an evolution of ideas in line with developments in the game. Many of todays defenders are not particularly good defenders because the game requires universality - defenders who are footballers.

Yes if a World Cup was played at altitude today and in similar conditions teams at least would drop off and press less. It would not matter if you possessed fitness levels that put you in the unique percentile that is what heat and altitude does to players. 

I mentioned 2 defenders. I could name many outstanding defenders in the past 20 years. 

Netherlands were revolutionary more for how they pressed the opponent from the front and thst is an excellent point, they did revolutionise football in that sense. However, I cannot help but feel the game is totally different today than back then and is a much harder game. Messi would score 100 per season in the 1960s

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12 minutes ago, One BCFC said:

I mentioned 2 defenders. I could name many outstanding defenders in the past 20 years. 

Netherlands were revolutionary more for how they pressed the opponent from the front and thst is an excellent point, they did revolutionise football in that sense. However, I cannot help but feel the game is totally different today than back then and is a much harder game. Messi would score 100 per season in the 1960s

This. People talk about hard men but I don't think the likes of Norman Hunter and Vinnie Jones would get anywhere near Messi.

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1 minute ago, AshtonGreat said:

This. People talk about hard men but I don't think the likes of Norman Hunter and Vinnie Jones would get anywhere near Messi.

It would get embarassing for them getting confused as to where Messi is, off scoring a goal whilst they're just trying to still take his legs.

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For me, the greatest player, in terms of raw god given genius level talent is maradona... yes he did a handball, and was crazy, but with a ball at his feet, hes the greatest. 

As for messi and ronaldo, both are sensational to have done it as long as they have, at the level they have

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11 minutes ago, One BCFC said:

I mentioned 2 defenders. I could name many outstanding defenders in the past 20 years. 

Netherlands were revolutionary more for how they pressed the opponent from the front and thst is an excellent point, they did revolutionise football in that sense. However, I cannot help but feel the game is totally different today than back then and is a much harder game. Messi would score 100 per season in the 1960s

The Netherlands were revolutionary for more than pressing. Todays sweeper keepers, pivots, 4-3-3 has it roots in 1974.  

Yes and no. The game now is far less physical in player to player contact. Players are free to play. The game in its rules is almost incomparable. Those rules have created the less physical game of today. Todays game is softer, almost effeminate in comparison … The physical challenges are different. 

Messi would score 100 per season in the 1960s … It is  a silly proposition. Messi is a product of todays football, La Masia and on. He would not develop in the same manner in the 60's. That did not happen decades ago. 

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13 hours ago, TBW said:

Was the best OF HIS time.

I'm a firm believer in evolution. We have more knowledge on diet, exercise, analysis and every other area of sport than we ever did, to assume someone from 30+ years ago was better despite having none of these modern day advantages, PLUS not having the facilities and money available to help further their careers like we can now is ignorant and insulting to modern day players. All of them are more athletic, take better care of their bodies and so on, pure talent will only take you so far, after that you need more.

Ignorant of modern day players, what who me? :laugh:!

Players take better care of themselves as that is the culture that exists, driven by the club and society. Players are more athletic as the human condition has changed and people are bigger and records continue to be broken in all sports. Also driven by the huge industry football/sport has become.

Players until the late 80's were generally done at 32. Largely due to culture and ignorance of injuries and how to repair and recover.

The comment was earlier that if Best was a player today he was far less likely to have ****** his career up.

 

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1 hour ago, AshtonGreat said:

This. People talk about hard men but I don't think the likes of Norman Hunter and Vinnie Jones would get anywhere near Messi.

Both of them wouldn’t have been on the pitch to get near him in todays climate.

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2 hours ago, AshtonGreat said:

This. People talk about hard men but I don't think the likes of Norman Hunter and Vinnie Jones would get anywhere near Messi.

Vinnie Jones and Norman Hunter in the same sentence. Wow!

Did Vinnie ever play in the European Cup at all? So you are probably right there.

Hunter was class, hard yes, but he could really play. At his best he was the best defender of his era. Would he have been able to stop Messi if he was playing today, who Knows, it would have been a great battle.

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Back to the original Messi Vs Ronaldo debate;

It could be argued that Ronaldo is better as he has played for 4 different teams in 4 leagues and has won an international trophy, which is something, to the annoyance of the Argentine nation that Messi has never done. Ronaldo has scored more goals, Messi has stayed at one club and has had teams built around him and his strengths.

Ronaldo is less popular because of his all around persona. 

So I would say it's a draw!

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