And Its Smith Posted April 19, 2019 Report Share Posted April 19, 2019 12 minutes ago, Harry said: Well, you’ve just clarified to me that your opinion of Pack is nonsense. Weakest player in our team. My word! If we want top 4 then we probably need to improve on somewhat more than just Pack. Perhaps a keeper, left back, right back, centre back, midfielder, 2 wingers and 2 strikers might also be required. We are what we are - a good team battling well above our relative wage budget. And Pack has been very much part of that team ethic which has seen us overachieve for 2 seasons and see us around the playoffs in possibly the most competitive division in world football. If we want to be a top 2 club in this league we probably need to change 75% or more of this team. So you don’t think Pack is in at least the top three weakest players in our best XI? Bit blinkered Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Posted April 19, 2019 Report Share Posted April 19, 2019 1 minute ago, RedDave said: So you don’t think Pack is in at least the top three weakest players in our best XI? Bit blinkered Keeper, full backs, strikers, attacking mids & wingers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
And Its Smith Posted April 19, 2019 Report Share Posted April 19, 2019 1 minute ago, Harry said: Keeper, full backs, strikers, attacking mids & wingers. Maenpaa better than Pack for starters. So is FamZ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Posted April 19, 2019 Report Share Posted April 19, 2019 Just now, RedDave said: Maenpaa better than Pack for starters. So is FamZ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
And Its Smith Posted April 19, 2019 Report Share Posted April 19, 2019 2 minutes ago, Harry said: Ah childish emojis. Maenpaa Hunt. Kalas. Webster. Dasilva Smith. Pack Brownhill Weimann. Diedhiou. Elliason Lets day for arguments sake that’s our best XI players. Pack not one of the weakest? For me, definitely is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Posted April 19, 2019 Report Share Posted April 19, 2019 2 minutes ago, RedDave said: Ah childish emojis. Maenpaa Hunt. Kalas. Webster. Dasilva Smith. Pack Brownhill Weimann. Diedhiou. Elliason Lets day for arguments sake that’s our best XI players. Pack not one of the weakest? For me, definitely is. Not childish emojis, just couldn’t be bothered to debate with you any more. But since you’ve asked, of that team you’ve put up, those who contribute the least when you consider what they ‘should’ be doing : Hunt, De Silva, Brownhill, Weimann, Diedhiou. All regularly more inconsistent than Pack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
And Its Smith Posted April 19, 2019 Report Share Posted April 19, 2019 1 minute ago, Harry said: Not childish emojis, just couldn’t be bothered to debate with you any more. But since you’ve asked, of that team you’ve put up, those who contribute the least when you consider what they ‘should’ be doing : Hunt, De Silva, Brownhill, Weimann, Diedhiou. All regularly more inconsistent than Pack. Okay I can leave this now as realise you don’t know what you are talking about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Posted April 19, 2019 Report Share Posted April 19, 2019 1 minute ago, RedDave said: Okay I can leave this now as realise you don’t know what you are talking about. If you think the 5 I picked out are more consistent in their performances than Pack then I’d argue it’s you who doesn’t know what he’s talking about. But that’s fine. Happy to end it there. You’re clearly not open to anything but negativity toward a player who’s been highly influential in our rise from the bottom of league 1 to the top of the championship. I find it very disrespectful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
And Its Smith Posted April 19, 2019 Report Share Posted April 19, 2019 3 minutes ago, Harry said: If you think the 5 I picked out are more consistent in their performances than Pack then I’d argue it’s you who doesn’t know what he’s talking about. But that’s fine. Happy to end it there. You’re clearly not open to anything but negativity toward a player who’s been highly influential in our rise from the bottom of league 1 to the top of the championship. I find it very disrespectful. I love Pack for what he has done but we have surpassed him. That’s all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AppyDAZE Posted April 19, 2019 Report Share Posted April 19, 2019 Just now, RedDave said: I love Pack for what he has done but we have surpassed him. That’s all. :laugh: really? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Posted April 19, 2019 Report Share Posted April 19, 2019 4 minutes ago, JonDolman said: There will always be this Pack debate as he is not very good at the closing down, covering ground, chasing back etc. So he HAS to give more in other parts of his game. Not good enough today I'm afraid. Well, the stats would suggest that he made the 2nd most touches, 2nd most passes, the 2nd most successful long balls, the 2nd most aerials won, the most tackles, the most blocked shots, the 2nd most interceptions and the 2nd most shots. But apparently he doesn’t tackle, pass, shoot, run or close down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
And Its Smith Posted April 19, 2019 Report Share Posted April 19, 2019 4 minutes ago, AppyDAZE said: really? As suspected you are blinded by what he has done in his City career I am giving a view on a player as he is now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AppyDAZE Posted April 19, 2019 Report Share Posted April 19, 2019 3 minutes ago, RedDave said: As suspected you are blinded by what he has done in his City career I am giving a view on a player as he is now Not blinded by anything. Just stating that he has bad games like anyone, but he has been a big, unsung player in a generally successful season (we were relegation battle favourites in August btw) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Posted April 19, 2019 Report Share Posted April 19, 2019 3 minutes ago, JonDolman said: He does do these things like any defensive midfielder. But he's clearly not very good at that side of the game. Stats never really tell a true story of how a player performs. Well he was the best or 2nd best at all of those things today so what was everyone else doing if he’s “not very good at it”? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Brent Posted April 19, 2019 Report Share Posted April 19, 2019 Haha some people really showing their lack of knowledge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
And Its Smith Posted April 20, 2019 Report Share Posted April 20, 2019 Pack misplaced 28% of forward passes and completed 96% of backwards and sideways passes. Misplaced 100% of passes into the penalty area. Half of his passes were to our defenders. i hate stats as they don’t tell a true picture. You can use them to tell any story you want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cowshed Posted April 20, 2019 Report Share Posted April 20, 2019 1 hour ago, RedDave said: Pack misplaced 28% of forward passes and completed 96% of backwards and sideways passes. Misplaced 100% of passes into the penalty area. Half of his passes were to our defenders. i hate stats as they don’t tell a true picture. You can use them to tell any story you want. Do you know what norms are v your figures? How often does a player in his position go forwards, sideways and backwards? What is the team intent? Penetrate quickly? Retain and build? Why have you not posted Pack completed 72% of his forward passes? People have bias. We all do. We seek constantly to confirm our existing beliefs and principles and frequently do so without looking at the factual picture. You may above be displaying a negative confirmation bias. Hating stats is odd in football. They are used daily to drive performance. Football analytics are used to objectively look at the true picture. They should be used to not tell the picture you want but the picture as it really is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YorkshireSection Posted April 20, 2019 Report Share Posted April 20, 2019 14 hours ago, lenred said: Smith isn’t there to prop Pack up. He’s experienced enough to not have to use Smith as a crutch but was a completely different player once he went off. He’s supposed to be a leader but falls short I’m afraid. Not slagging him but he’s just not good enough. We all have our limits. Packs is lower Champ / top league 1. No shame in that. I completely agree. If we are to push on we will need much better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1960maaan Posted April 20, 2019 Report Share Posted April 20, 2019 Ignoring the stats, Pack seems obsessed with the ‘ no look pass’ , let him down a few times yesterday. He also seems to need an extra second or two thinking time on the ball to decide where to go. I have noticed with Palmer and Walsh , they seem to have looked and have choices before they get the ball. I really think some of Pack’s dips in form are to do with the amount of games he plays without a rest. We simply don’t have another option with Korey being almost constantly injured, and Walsh and Morrell being the other options, not really like for like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trueredsupporter Posted April 20, 2019 Report Share Posted April 20, 2019 2 hours ago, RedDave said: i hate stats as they don’t tell a true picture. You can use them to tell any story you want. you started your officially overachieving thread with stats?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
And Its Smith Posted April 20, 2019 Report Share Posted April 20, 2019 1 hour ago, Cowshed said: Do you know what norms are v your figures? How often does a player in his position go forwards, sideways and backwards? What is the team intent? Penetrate quickly? Retain and build? Why have you not posted Pack completed 72% of his forward passes? People have bias. We all do. We seek constantly to confirm our existing beliefs and principles and frequently do so without looking at the factual picture. You may above be displaying a negative confirmation bias. Hating stats is odd in football. They are used daily to drive performance. Football analytics are used to objectively look at the true picture. They should be used to not tell the picture you want but the picture as it really is. I used my post to show how stats can be used for anything. Watching a game should always be the main source of opinion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cowshed Posted April 20, 2019 Report Share Posted April 20, 2019 1 minute ago, RedDave said: I used my post to show how stats can be used for anything. Watching a game should always be the main source of opinion And I highlighted that stats are objective if you design the measurements tools to be so. Opinion and bias can be removed from that measurement. It is a topic removed from normal fandom but analytics in football are necessary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
And Its Smith Posted April 20, 2019 Report Share Posted April 20, 2019 1 hour ago, 1960maaan said: Ignoring the stats, Pack seems obsessed with the ‘ no look pass’ , let him down a few times yesterday. He also seems to need an extra second or two thinking time on the ball to decide where to go. I have noticed with Palmer and Walsh , they seem to have looked and have choices before they get the ball. I really think some of Pack’s dips in form are to do with the amount of games he plays without a rest. We simply don’t have another option with Korey being almost constantly injured, and Walsh and Morrell being the other options, not really like for like. No stats to show time spent on ball so some on here don’t recognise it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Posted April 20, 2019 Report Share Posted April 20, 2019 4 hours ago, RedDave said: Pack misplaced 28% of forward passes and completed 96% of backwards and sideways passes. Misplaced 100% of passes into the penalty area. Half of his passes were to our defenders. i hate stats as they don’t tell a true picture. You can use them to tell any story you want. Seems whatever he does he can’t win. “Oh my word, he’s crap, all he does is pass it backwards” is one all too often critique. Now - “Oh my, when he passes forward he only completes 7 out of 10 attempts”. And one from earlier on here - “when he passes forward it’s always to a player under pressure”. Well, shit the bed - do people expect players in advanced attacking positions to always be in space and not be passed the ball if there is a defender near them?? Bloke can’t win. Pass it backwards - he’s slow and negative. Pass it forwards - he’s not taking responsibility as it puts other under pressure. Unbeleivable really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
And Its Smith Posted April 20, 2019 Report Share Posted April 20, 2019 1 minute ago, Harry said: Seems whatever he does he can’t win. “Oh my word, he’s crap, all he does is pass it backwards” is one all too often critique. Now - “Oh my, when he passes forward he only completes 7 out of 10 attempts”. And one from earlier on here - “when he passes forward it’s always to a player under pressure”. Well, shit the bed - do people expect players in advanced attacking positions to always be in space and not be passed the ball if there is a defender near them?? Bloke can’t win. Pass it backwards - he’s slow and negative. Pass it forwards - he’s not taking responsibility as it puts other under pressure. Unbeleivable really. I’ve not said many of those things. He is poor at passing forward quickly. Can’t imagine anyone can argue that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bristol Rob Posted April 20, 2019 Report Share Posted April 20, 2019 Shouldn't Marlon be on 2 weeks maternity leave? Sure I read on here that his Doris had just dropped. Bloke was probably shattered. Which would explain the performance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Posted April 20, 2019 Report Share Posted April 20, 2019 2 hours ago, 1960maaan said: Ignoring the stats, Pack seems obsessed with the ‘ no look pass’ , let him down a few times yesterday. He also seems to need an extra second or two thinking time on the ball to decide where to go. I have noticed with Palmer and Walsh , they seem to have looked and have choices before they get the ball. I really think some of Pack’s dips in form are to do with the amount of games he plays without a rest. We simply don’t have another option with Korey being almost constantly injured, and Walsh and Morrell being the other options, not really like for like. The ‘no look pass’ is part of the gameplan which LJ has asked him to perform. Much like under Cotterill, Pack was asked to hit diagonals 25 times per game, now he doesn’t do that as much and instead looks for the shorter pass into the striker or AM’s feet. You can watch LJ specially coaching this in the pre-season camp video. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Major Isewater Posted April 20, 2019 Report Share Posted April 20, 2019 19 hours ago, cidered abroad said: He has reached his peak and needs to be replaced if we are to progress. Reluctantly agree with you. Not that I know Jack ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1960maaan Posted April 20, 2019 Report Share Posted April 20, 2019 33 minutes ago, Harry said: The ‘no look pass’ is part of the gameplan which LJ has asked him to perform. Much like under Cotterill, Pack was asked to hit diagonals 25 times per game, now he doesn’t do that as much and instead looks for the shorter pass into the striker or AM’s feet. You can watch LJ specially coaching this in the pre-season camp video. It’s the same as anything though, do it all the time, and it loses its effectiveness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Posted April 20, 2019 Report Share Posted April 20, 2019 1 hour ago, 1960maaan said: It’s the same as anything though, do it all the time, and it loses its effectiveness. I wouldn’t argue with that. But I also wouldn’t use it as a stick to beat Pack with, when it’s specific instructions / game plan from the boss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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