Bristol R*vers dustbin thread

[BobBobSuperBob]

34 minutes ago, Bizyer said:

**** me. That sounds like a bubble about to burst/sh1t hit the fan etc. etc.

I'm no financial analyst but if you read some of this chaps other posts (He appears quite switched on about it) they are in the s***t and heading for major trouble  unless something changes.........

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The Dwane Sports loan has increased by £4.8 million in 17 months.

I suspect £1.13 of the loan facility was used to pay for the training ground which is registered in the name of Dwane Colony Ltd and probably booked as an inter-company loan.

The loans of £930K owing to Nick Higgs and Barry Bradshaw may also have been paid off

That would leave trading losses of £ 2.74 million over 17 months which equates to just under £2 million per year.

 

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As far as I can see, in rounded terms, the £12 million has been spent to pay off the former directors loans  (£4.5 million) pay off the MSP Capital loan (£2.7 million) pay part of the 2016 losses ( £1 million) pay for the subsequent 17 months trading losses (£2.8 million) and make a loan to Dwane Colony to buy the training ground land (£1 million)

It looks as though we are losing £2 million per year so the loan owing to Dwane Sports will increase by that amount every year until Hani decides the marathon is over.

The best solution IMO is for Dwane Sports to seriously seek outside investment and be willing to capitalise their loan and sacrifice their majority stake. If they are not prepared to do that then I think they should forget about the Colony and mothball it, lease or share a suitable medium term training ground and concentrate all available resources on getting to the Championship where the EFL funding increases from  £1.3 million pa to £6.4 million pa. Geoff alluded to this solution right at the end of the interview.

One thing which fans could do, and which would help put our minds at rest, is to ask Dwane Sports to give a sign of their good faith by committing that they will not sell the Mem before first having secured another, commercially acceptable, home for Rovers.
 

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So why did Wael, in an interview with Venture magazine on 31st August 2016, say he "beat around 10 other bidders to secure ownership of the club" ?

I think we both know the reason, which is that Wael likes to embellish the truth, and your assessment is probably correct that there was only one bid which would get Nick and his colleagues out with most of their money intact.

But there is really no need for Rovers fans to fall out over this and surely we don't want to get back to the days when anyone (like me) who criticised the owners was called a "board basher" and told to "put up or shut up". It must be clear by now that criticism of Nick's way of running the club was entirely justified and I think the same applies today. 

Prior to the take over Rovers were about £7 million in debt to the directors/shareholders and MSP Capital, losing about £1 million per year and with no plan of how to go forward. Steve Hamer confirmed yesterday that Rovers are now £12 million in debt to Dwane Sports Ltd, losing about £2 million per year and with no plan of how to go forward. I should say the financial situation now is considerably worse than it was in January 2016 but the question for Rovers fans is what should we do ?

Although Steve and Wael have said they are in it for the long term I think the biggest worry for Gasheads is that Hani will decide to protect his family interests by selling the Mem to recoup the loan before it exceeds the value of the security. Would it be wrong for Rovers fans to ask Hani for a sign of his good faith by requesting he state that: "We will not sell The Mem without first securing a viable new home for Rovers"

_________________

This is my take on it socrates I did see your post but put my thoughts in a reply to knowall. 


"Prior to the take over Rovers were about £7 million in debt to the directors/shareholders and MSP Capital, losing about £1 million per year and with no plan of how to go forward. Steve Hamer confirmed yesterday that Rovers are now £12 million in debt to Dwane Sports Ltd, losing about £2 million per year and with no plan of how to go forward. I should say the financial situation now is considerably worse than it was in January 2016 but the question for Rovers fans is what should we do ?"

Even taking into account the deteriorated financial situation we could be much more optimistic about the bigger picture if only Dwane Sports, from the start, had come up with a properly written down plan and vision to give us some hope. They didn't do that, the stadium consultants soon disappeared, and it drifted on until the UWE cancellation was revealed in August. Since then they have had three months to come up with something new and I think most of us thought Steve Hamer  was going to tell us about that yesterday but what we heard from him was terribly disappointing. I understand some fans think it's rude and disrespectful to question the owners but, believe me, if a business owner is confident about what he is doing and has a clearly defined plan he'll be pleased to answer constructive questions and be proud to set out his vision.   

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At 30th June 2010 Rovers owed the bank and brewery a total of £1.5 million, the directors a total of  £2.5 million and we were losing £1 million per year.

Today we owe Dwane Sports £12 million and we are losing around £2 million per year.

So we are in a far worse state now than we were when the last Mem redevelopment plans fell through.

And no one knows what the "project" is because all we have been given are vague ramblings about a training ground like Fleetwood's which is having to be scaled down because reality has kicked in and a redevelopment of the Mem which the Chairman is recommending be done stand by stand but he is not sure whether Dwane Sports agree with him about that. 
 

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But it's not just us lunatics MM because Darrel Clarke is talking about finance as well. He has said his net spend on transfers is only £135 000 and I'm sure when Steve Hamer mentioned us having something like Fleetwood's £9 million training ground Darrell was wondering where the money was coming from just like we were.

Wael and his family refuse to talk about finances and try to give the impression everything is under control but clearly it's not. The debt when they took over was  about £7.2 million (£4.5 million former shareholders + £2.7 million MSP Capital) and now we have been told they have invested £12 million so a further £4.8 million must have been spent since then. It looks like £3.7 was to cover trading losses and £1.1 million was on the land at Almondsbury which is registered in the name of Dwane Colony Ltd..

 

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The write off of £2.3 million legal and professional costs was included in the 2016 accounts and that's what the MSP Capital loan was primarily used for.

The debt situation has deteriorated by £4.8 million since the take over.

The issue about whether or not Dwane Sports are comfortable with this level of debt, and it increasing week by week, is one which Wael could have put to bed in his interview but chose not to.  There is an issue because Steve Hamer and Darrell Clarke are clearly concerned about finances and I think the time to confront it would be before Darrell Clarke leaves rather than let him go and then start the blame game.

______________

What is galling for me warehamgas is that when a few of us criticised the old regime for the way they were running Rovers we were told we were "board haters" with a "hidden agenda". In fact, most of us with experience in business were simply trying to point out that there was a better way to go and we wanted Nick Higgs to adopt a more professional approach in the best interests of Rovers. So when something like this minimum wage issue comes up and fans are very quick to hurl abuse at the old board it makes me wonder why, at the time, so many refused to admit what was staring them in the face when all the signs were there if you opened your eyes.

And I'm afraid the situation today is similar. I understand it is difficult for many fans to reconcile the difference between debt and equity but basically when money is put into a football club as debt it remains the property of the owners not the football club and the owners are entitled to charge interest if they wish. Whereas with equity the money becomes the property of the football club and the owners only get a return if the club is profitable and they can take a dividend or if the club is successful and the shares have a value when the club is sold.

Steve Hamer's interview was very enlightening because he confirmed that Dwane Sports were charging interest on their loan and he said they did not put money into Rovers as equity because if they did it would be "irrecoverable". In other words they do expect to recover the interest which is racking up in Rovers accounts at the rate of about £14 000 per week. Steve said the interest was "notional" which is not strictly true because if it was notional it would not show in the audited accounts and it would not be recoverable. This interest is an overhead for Rovers when calculating a break even figure and the money supplied via loan does not count towards turnover for FFP / SCMP purposes so, compared to many other lower league clubs where the owners subscribe for equity or make donations, we are at a disadvantage.

You mention Scunthorpe United and their 2016 accounts show the owner invested  £3.78 million into the club as share capital which gave them a big advantage in playing budget terms. And with Rochdale I have a personal anecdote from many years ago when I was talking to their Chairman about financing and he told me that a very well known TV comedy duo had offered to put money into their club but, he said after a pause, "they wanted to take a charge over our ground" followed by him spluttering with laughter. Most people in the game, including Steve Hamer I expect, are fully aware that owning a club is an indulgence you have to be prepared to pay for and to think you can charge yourself interest and use the assets to secure your debts is "just not football".  
 

___________________________

If you are a Sag , doesn't make great reading does it 

[bristolmoose]

12 minutes ago, cityal said:

Oh no its not!

They’re behind us!! 

[cityal]

1 hour ago, bristolmoose said:

They’re behind us!! 

True! 17 years and counting!

Edited December 23, 2017 by cityal

[Bris Red]

They deserve everything that comes there way.. to believe wael and his familys bull shit is there own idiotic fault. The bloke clearly hasn't got a pot to piss ( in the £ world of football anyway) and has led the sags royally up the garden path.. lmagine the tables were turnt and we were them and they were us hahah fo0k me our life's wouldn't be worth living.. i hope they get whats coming to them the ***** 

[Son of Fred]

6 hours ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

Swiss gas always seems to have a handle on the financial,side and as a Sag his posts don't make good reading 

Heres one of his latest

 

Some perspective is also needed about the Al Qadi family situation and their capabilities. 

Jordan only just makes it into the list of top 100 countries ranked by GDP and is one place below the Democratic Republic of Congo. The AJIB is about the 8th largest bank in Jordan in terms of market capitalisation and it's current stock market valuation is £270 million making the Al Qadi family stake worth about £80 million. Their total family dividend income from AJIB is about £6 million per year with Wael's portion about £700 000 pa.

If the Al Qadi family are not in a position to finance a £25 million redevelopment of the Mem themselves they will have to look for outside investors. If those investors are looking for a 5% return over 25 years the redeveloped Mem will have to be producing net revenues of £1.8 million per year just to pay the outside investors. So to "sell" those investors on the deal someone will have to convince them that the Bristol Rovers business will be able to perform an amazing turnaround from £2 million losses to at least £1.8pa million profits. And then cash has to be found to finance the football team !


 

And for that reason,I'm out.....

[Mike Hunt-Hertz]

5 hours ago, wendyredredrobin said:

I understand that he was actually at another game watching the team he is going to be managing next week.

No, he was at the dogs.....salivating.

[The Joker]

7 hours ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

If you are a Sag , doesn't make great reading does it

No but i,m a gurt ted and i recon its a cracking read, along with Dopey s dog grooming for beginners. 

[Lanterne Rouge]

8 hours ago, bris red said:

They deserve everything that comes there way.. to believe wael and his familys bull shit is there own idiotic fault. The bloke clearly hasn't got a pot to piss ( in the £ world of football anyway) and has led the sags royally up the garden path.. lmagine the tables were turnt and we were them and they were us hahah fo0k me our life's wouldn't be worth living.. i hope they get whats coming to them the ***** 

This. If it was another club that was being shafted you would feel some sympathy with them as in most cases it`s come out of the blue but with them we`ve been telling them what will happen from day one and they`ve just chosen to ignore all the evidence. We`ve been saying it`s the emperor`s new clothes ever since Wally bought them but they (with a few exceptions) have blindly followed him.

They deserve all they get. They should have been questioning the owner from the day he took over - all the evidence we managed to find was out there in the public domain - but they prefer to believe in their ultimate fantasy - getting within touching distance of us even if it risked destroying their club in the process.

It`s not about being the best you can be to them. It`s only about being better than us. They would be happy to be back in the Conference if it meant we were one place below them.

 

[Port Said Red]

listened to 20man on the way home last night and they are definitely worried, but they are still deluded. They keep talking about January and how signings will save them, but don't seem to have sussed that they will have to be shopping in Poundland, let alone LIDL. In their current predicament, it's difficult to see why players even from lower leagues would want to join them.

[BS2 Red]

Any other club I would feel sorry for.

But the 15ers have spent 35 years laughing about a club that was in financial ruin. They found it all so hilarious! 

**** ‘em.

[GrahamC]

11 minutes ago, Red Right Hand said:

This. If it was another club that was being shafted you would feel some sympathy with them as in most cases it`s come out of the blue but with them we`ve been telling them what will happen from day one and they`ve just chosen to ignore all the evidence. We`ve been saying it`s the emperor`s new clothes ever since Wally bought them but they (with a few exceptions) have blindly followed him.

They deserve all they get. They should have been questioning the owner from the day he took over - all the evidence we managed to find was out there in the public domain - but they prefer to believe in their ultimate fantasy - getting within touching distance of us even if it risked destroying their club in the process.

It`s not about being the best you can be to them. It`s only about being better than us. They would be happy to be back in the Conference if it meant we were one place below them.

 

You are right, but the local media are equally culpable, too.

Even this year the Post talked about his family wealth being £500m and the BBC sent a local journalist (Andy Howard) to Jordan to do a (totally unnecessary) fawning piece on Wael.

It was pretty clear from the start that someone who was seriously considering buying Gillingham before them was hardly another Sir Stephen Lansdown, but their pathetic desire to find nice things to say about the horse punchers got in the way of the (incredibly amusing) truth.

[Homer Simpson]

Yes ****'em. Happy Christmas everybody, except them. ****'em.

[myol'man]

How does a club with reasonable attendances, at that level anyway, paying below the going rate to it's players end up in such a financial mess? Well they did it in the 50's and 80's I suppose 

[Mike Hunt-Hertz]

33 minutes ago, Port Said Red said:

listened to 20man on the way home last night and they are definitely worried, but they are still deluded. They keep talking about January and how signings will save them, but don't seem to have sussed that they will have to be shopping in Poundland, let alone LIDL. In their current predicament, it's difficult to see why players even from lower leagues would want to join them.

More like a stall at Sandbach market.

[Frenchay Red]

They seem to really be in a financial mess, and it's obviously getting worse.

It may come down to passing round the collection bucket to save them. My problem would be deciding how much to take out. 

[chinapig]

35 minutes ago, Port Said Red said:

listened to 20man on the way home last night and they are definitely worried, but they are still deluded. They keep talking about January and how signings will save them, but don't seem to have sussed that they will have to be shopping in Poundland, let alone LIDL. In their current predicament, it's difficult to see why players even from lower leagues would want to join them.

Poundland is likely to be too expensive. Dumpster diving is more the level I think.

[Vincent Vega]

[Miah Dennehy]

On ‎21‎/‎12‎/‎2017 at 22:59, Peter O Hanraha-hanrahan said:

This deserves more than just one 'like'.

 

Certainly on that thread there were some very respectful comments at the beginning. Obviously a few dicks came along with their uneducated and bitter views later on as the situation got too much for them to take. The usual suspect were guilty, one 'Pompey' fan in particular. 

Thing is, they were coming out with the same stuff when we were approaching the Championship Play Off Final in 2008. Obviously the mask dropped as soon as the final whistle blew that day. 

One of the best things about last night was that it occurred to me as I walked out that all of my Gas inlaws and colleagues had sat in front of a telly for 93 minutes waiting to see City get heavily beaten and instead had to put up with the agony of a last minute City winner, brilliantly set up by Taylor of all players....and they all watched it. Happy Christmas.

The thing is you can't knock what City are doing at the moment but that doesn't stop me from wanting it to stop!

Currently we are light years apart and that doesn't look like changing any time soon, but things do change and in football it can happen quite quickly. A year ago Lansdown and Johnson in particular were getting some horrific stick and the prospect of us facing each other again in league competition looked odds on, a year on and it looks as far away as ever.

I'm 53 next week, and at the moment, I'd take just beating you once more in my lifetime.

[myol'man]

8 minutes ago, Miah Dennehy said:

The thing is you can't knock what City are doing at the moment but that doesn't stop me from wanting it to stop!

Currently we are light years apart and that doesn't look like changing any time soon, but things do change and in football it can happen quite quickly. A year ago Lansdown and Johnson in particular were getting some horrific stick and the prospect of us facing each other again in league competition looked odds on, a year on and it looks as far away as ever.

I'm 53 next week, and at the moment, I'd take just PLAYING you once more in my lifetime.

edit for you Miah 

[Coombsy]

24 minutes ago, Miah Dennehy said:

The thing is you can't knock what City are doing at the moment but that doesn't stop me from wanting it to stop!

Currently we are light years apart and that doesn't look like changing any time soon, but things do change and in football it can happen quite quickly. A year ago Lansdown and Johnson in particular were getting some horrific stick and the prospect of us facing each other again in league competition looked odds on, a year on and it looks as far away as ever.

I'm 53 next week, and at the moment, I'd take just beating you once more in my lifetime.

Hi miah you are one of the best posters for the blue few 

At 53 next week you deserve some happynest.

my gif and advise to you 

come and join the Reds 

happy Christmas and happy birthday 

[Peter O Hanraha-hanrahan]

31 minutes ago, Miah Dennehy said:

The thing is you can't knock what City are doing at the moment but that doesn't stop me from wanting it to stop!

Currently we are light years apart and that doesn't look like changing any time soon, but things do change and in football it can happen quite quickly. A year ago Lansdown and Johnson in particular were getting some horrific stick and the prospect of us facing each other again in league competition looked odds on, a year on and it looks as far away as ever.

I'm 53 next week, and at the moment, I'd take just beating you once more in my lifetime.

I can understand that Miah, that’s perfectly natural. In fairness to you, you don’t make any secret that you’d like to see us lose, you also have said in the past that if the tables were turned and we’d have got relegated to the Conference you’d be taking every opportunity to take the piss. I respect that because you’re being honest and not trying to claim you’re any better than us.

 

[SimonR]

6 hours ago, The Joker said:

No but i,m a gurt ted and i recon its a cracking read, along with Dopey s dog grooming for beginners. 

Your use of the word Grooming there made me spray coffee out of my nose. Kudos man!

[1960maaan]

1 hour ago, Miah Dennehy said:

The thing is you can't knock what City are doing at the moment but that doesn't stop me from wanting it to stop!

Currently we are light years apart and that doesn't look like changing any time soon, but things do change and in football it can happen quite quickly. A year ago Lansdown and Johnson in particular were getting some horrific stick and the prospect of us facing each other again in league competition looked odds on, a year on and it looks as far away as ever.

I'm 53 next week, and at the moment, I'd take just beating you once more in my lifetime.

Is this your wish to live into your (several) hundreds????  

[Rudolf Hucker]

Merry Christmas, @Miah Dennehy but I can't imagine that you 15ers will enjoy the happiest new year. Everything seems presently stacked against your club (which we're all enjoying heartily btw) and its hard to see how it can end well for you.

I enjoy the fact that OTIB is a forum which gives our rivals a voice. The brickbats thrown at us by you, other gasheads, posters from Cardiff and even Barnsley cause all of us to challenge our thinking about how our club is run. It enables us to develop a more balanced view. Occasionally, some posters such as @st andrews gas turn up simply intent upon taking the piss but there are enough on here to put them in their place and send them off to lick their wounds. Were your own forum to be similarly moderated (rather than adopting the present North Korean approach) then the seemingly delusional beliefs spouted by so many of your fans would be challenged and changed perhaps galvanizing your fan base to challenge and change the management of your club (note I said club, not team). Unless changes are quickly made, you're on a slippery slope to oblivion. Your wish to see your team beat us once more will never happen because your club will no longer exist.

With that cheery possibility in mind, I wish all of my fellow OTIB'ers the Merriest Christmas and a very Happy New Year.

[BobBobSuperBob]

How to spend £150k on your pitch and turn it into a sandpit !!! 

Fair play to the second poster - made me laugh 

http://gaschat.co.uk/thread/11318/terrible-pitch

[Southstandoriginal]

4 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

How to spend £150k on your pitch and turn it into a sandpit !!! 

Fair play to the second poster - made me laugh 

http://gaschat.co.uk/thread/11318/terrible-pitch

One of the other posters is doubtful that they've actually paid for it though!

[Esmond Million's Bung]

This is just the best, lifted from that thread, the aim is to give Dopey one of the best playing surfaces in league 1, oh they are just the gift that never ends and long may it continue.

https://www.bristolrovers.co.uk/news/2017/may/upgrading-the-mem/

Surely the sand is to soak up the camel shit that the owner spreads.

Edited December 24, 2017 by Esmond Million's Bung

[Guest]

Already drop kerbs have been installed outside the Supporters Club matchday shop and the Stadium Shop to assist wheelchair users.

The car parks have also come under scrutiny and all spaces will be clearly marked and numbered in both the main and inner car parks.

 

Painting and decorating in all areas, new curtains and blinds for the Dribuild Suite, carpet cleaning throughout and the deep cleaning of all kitchen areas also feature on the agenda, as does the provision of a newly refurbished media suite to be used for post-match interviews.

 

 

Looks like they put as much effort in for their disabled supporters in their shops as they do in the stands.... More carpet cleaning too, cannot believe they actually feel the need to tell supporters this rubbish. Total embarrassment.

[hoxton casual]

2 hours ago, Miah Dennehy said:

The thing is you can't knock what City are doing at the moment but that doesn't stop me from wanting it to stop!

Currently we are light years apart and that doesn't look like changing any time soon, but things do change and in football it can happen quite quickly. A year ago Lansdown and Johnson in particular were getting some horrific stick and the prospect of us facing each other again in league competition looked odds on, a year on and it looks as far away as ever.

I'm 53 next week, and at the moment, I'd take just beating you once more in my lifetime.

Happy birthday Miah.

[hoxton casual]

And after Wednesday, any young kid is not going to want to be dragged to see the rovers for his or her first game. The future is ours, and our main competition is now local lads in Man Utd and Barcelona tops...