Jump to content
IGNORED

Bolton Wanderers (Merged)


Lrrr

Recommended Posts

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

Good shout....Yeovil would be kicking themselves.

needs to be resolved quickly

Will it also save Plymouth from relegation? Would think a 23 team L1 would be easier, then place changes the season after?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, chowie said:

Will it also save Plymouth from relegation? Would think a 23 team L1 would be easier, then place changes the season after?

That’s how I’d see it going (Plymouth staying up)

The key date for me is June 20th. That’s when fixtures are released. Working back, the league would want a reasonable amount of notice prior to then to constitute the divisions, so by say 10 days prior they’ll want to be assured BWFC are viable as a going concern.

I think they’ve got a month to secure a takeover - whether via admin or otherwise or I reckon they’re gone and Plymouth/Notts County stay up

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 hours ago, Silvio Dante said:

Do we necessarily think administration is the end of this? They’ve been in serious strife for some time, nobody seems to want to buy and they’ve not fulfilled fixtures.

This feels more like liquidation to me. I’m not sure when the deadline is for the league to confirm they’re happy Bolton can fulfil fixtures/be admitted (something about a Golden Share), but I don’t see this being resolved soon.

Put it this way - I wouldn’t be surprised to see Notts County play league football next season after all.

I think a pre-pack Admin is likely. There are reports of interest from parties other than Bassini, who I think would have been a disaster.

Whatever happen they are going to be hammered for not fulfilling a fixture and if Admin happens, goodness knows how many negative points they will start with in August - enough, I suspect for League 2 to beckon.

It is an astonishing story of huge overspending funded by a benefactor now, sadly, passed away. The sums involved are incredulous given they were on the PL gravy train for many years.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 minutes ago, ScottishRed said:

I think a pre-pack Admin is likely. There are reports of interest from parties other than Bassini, who I think would have been a disaster.

Whatever happen they are going to be hammered for not fulfilling a fixture and if Admin happens, goodness knows how many negative points they will start with in August - enough, I suspect for League 2 to beckon.

It is an astonishing story of huge overspending funded by a benefactor now, sadly, passed away. The sums involved are incredulous given they were on the PL gravy train for many years.

Also see Blackburn Rovers. Never went as far as administration granted, but they were overspending way beyond their means until they were relegated to League 1. Difference being, they got rid of the deadwood, rebuilt and as far as I'm aware, are in a much better position financially.

Bolton went to League 1 with a bump, came back up and are now in an even worse position than they were before. Gross mismanagement of the highest order, and why it's taken the EFL so long to step in, god only knows!!

Feel sorry for the fans, who will be the only ones seeing this through to the end, but the writing has been on the wall for so long it's unreal.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, ScottishRed said:

I think a pre-pack Admin is likely. There are reports of interest from parties other than Bassini, who I think would have been a disaster.

Whatever happen they are going to be hammered for not fulfilling a fixture and if Admin happens, goodness knows how many negative points they will start with in August - enough, I suspect for League 2 to beckon.

It is an astonishing story of huge overspending funded by a benefactor now, sadly, passed away. The sums involved are incredulous given they were on the PL gravy train for many years.

I've mentioned on here before that in only one of their eleven years in there prem did Bolton make any profit - that's incredulous!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Taz said:

Also see Blackburn Rovers. Never went as far as administration granted, but they were overspending way beyond their means until they were relegated to League 1. Difference being, they got rid of the deadwood, rebuilt and as far as I'm aware, are in a much better position financially.

Bolton went to League 1 with a bump, came back up and are now in an even worse position than they were before. Gross mismanagement of the highest order, and why it's taken the EFL so long to step in, god only knows!!

Feel sorry for the fans, who will be the only ones seeing this through to the end, but the writing has been on the wall for so long it's unreal.

Surely this is exactly what ffp was designed to avoid, yet it seems that when confronted with "big" ( for which read ex prem clubs) flouting the ffp rules the EFL prefers to sidestep the issue.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, downendcity said:

Surely this is exactly what ffp was designed to avoid, yet it seems that when confronted with "big" ( for which read ex prem clubs) flouting the ffp rules the EFL prefers to sidestep the issue.

 

Quite so but the usual "it's the fans who are really punished" argument is trotted out, which is why I think clubs with good numbers of fans get kid glove treatment.

The problem is, the way such clubs operate creates an uneven playing field, which if unchecked will encourage more clubs to go down that route.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Taz said:

Also see Blackburn Rovers. Never went as far as administration granted, but they were overspending way beyond their means until they were relegated to League 1. Difference being, they got rid of the deadwood, rebuilt and as far as I'm aware, are in a much better position financially.

Bolton went to League 1 with a bump, came back up and are now in an even worse position than they were before. Gross mismanagement of the highest order, and why it's taken the EFL so long to step in, god only knows!!

Feel sorry for the fans, who will be the only ones seeing this through to the end, but the writing has been on the wall for so long it's unreal.

The main reason Bolton are in a mess is cash-flow, so far as I can see.

Blackburn are in a better position yes they have done some decent restructuring but the Venkys for all the flak, ultimately cover the shortfall...but any club that posts a loss will always be vulnerable to this- if tomorrow e.g. SL decided not a penny more for us, we would be in a stack of trouble except for firesales to fend it off sooner rather than later.

By definition all clubs that post losses- which is basically the bulk of them- are dependent to varying degrees on owners underwriting losses- thee is even a small chance that Bolton posted a small profit due to player sales last season- I get the narrative that it is a legacy of their overspending days and certainly the grossest of mismanagement but this was written off in 2016 or 2017, all the debt to the old owners.

Quick comparison.

Bolton in their League One promotion season lost £12.9 as an operating loss (before player sales etc- that apparently took it down to £4.5m).

Blackburn, the much better run? In their League One promotion season, they lost £16.7m as an operating loss before player sales etc...credit to Kieran Maguire for this excellent graph- these losses will almost certainly increase when Bolton and Sheffield Wednesday finally produces their accounts.

D58dRxjWwAAVKhs.jpg

Just look at that- if not for wealthy or even moderately wealthy owners, most clubs would be absolutely ******!!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 minutes ago, Loon plage said:

Quite so but the usual "it's the fans who are really punished" argument is trotted out, which is why I think clubs with good numbers of fans get kid glove treatment.

The problem is, the way such clubs operate creates an uneven playing field, which if unchecked will encourage more clubs to go down that route.

Exactly right. And every time one club gets away with it another thinks they can. And that’s been the case now going back even further than FFP. Several clubs (Portsmouth most blatantly) flouted the all seater stadium rule for years, spending money on players when others were having to spend on their grounds.

I personally think points deductions is the answer. I think that negates the advantages that the offending club has gained against others. And In terms of fans paying the price, we’ll, it’s just like losing a few games, or suffering a relegation season, any fan should be used to that!

The problem now is that in some cases it’s gone on so long, it’s almost un-fixable off the field. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Loon plage said:

Perhaps its time to stop parachute payments and realistic wages to be paid, with draconian punishments meted out to clubs who don't follow sensible management practices.

Wages are the key issue.

The TV money has had an affect at all levels on these. The fact that some players in the Championship are on £60k per week beggars belief.

There needs to come a time when wages are linked to genuine turnover and cannot exceed a certain percentage, it is madness that clubs have a higher wages bill than turnover, never mind the other costs they incur.

With the exception of 'tech' start-ups no other business would operate that way if they wished to be sustainable.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, Loon plage said:

Perhaps its time to stop parachute payments and realistic wages to be paid, with draconian punishments meted out to clubs who don't follow sensible management practices.

I think phasing out of parachute payments as opposed so a sudden hard stop perhaps- the problem is the TV gap between the PL and Championship- if you suddenly remove parachute payments then TV income falls about 93% in a year...no easy answers.

However second bit I completely agree. In Germany they have or more likely had, a licensing system. I'd adopt elements of this- maybe a requirement to break even except for good investment that benefits the club medium to long run, combined with an obligation to ring fence assets e.g. stadia, training facilities, academy from bent owners. Unsure how that 2nd bit would fit legally, whether it'd be feasible- but apart from that 'good' investment, income must match expenditure exactly- or no license to play for the season!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

59 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

The main reason Bolton are in a mess is cash-flow, so far as I can see.

Blackburn are in a better position yes they have done some decent restructuring but the Venkys for all the flak, ultimately cover the shortfall...but any club that posts a loss will always be vulnerable to this- if tomorrow e.g. SL decided not a penny more for us, we would be in a stack of trouble except for firesales to fend it off sooner rather than later.

By definition all clubs that post losses- which is basically the bulk of them- are dependent to varying degrees on owners underwriting losses- thee is even a small chance that Bolton posted a small profit due to player sales last season- I get the narrative that it is a legacy of their overspending days and certainly the grossest of mismanagement but this was written off in 2016 or 2017, all the debt to the old owners.

Quick comparison.

Bolton in their League One promotion season lost £12.9 as an operating loss (before player sales etc- that apparently took it down to £4.5m).

Blackburn, the much better run? In their League One promotion season, they lost £16.7m as an operating loss before player sales etc...credit to Kieran Maguire for this excellent graph- these losses will almost certainly increase when Bolton and Sheffield Wednesday finally produces their accounts.

D58dRxjWwAAVKhs.jpg

Just look at that- if not for wealthy or even moderately wealthy owners, most clubs would be absolutely ******!!

Thanks for this Mr P.  Those graphs are almost as worrying as when Attenborough tells us what mankind is doing to the planet i.e. it is unsustainable.

Even a non-accountant layman can see that that progression will surely result in clubs going bust, and that this is exactly what ffp was designed to avoid. The problem is that the carrot at the end of the stick, i.e. promotion to the prem, is such a financial enticement that owners/clubs seem prepared to risk everything to attain that goal. The consequences of failing ( or falling out of the prem as in Bolton's case) can, and will be, catastrophic and more so than ever before, given the huge amounts of money now involved.

If ffp was meant to deter clubs from reckless financial management and control, then why is the EFL so very weak in applying their own rules and penalties?

If, as so many suspect, Villa and Derby have "manipulated" their figures to avoid ffp sanction the they are potentially endangering their clubs' futures if they fail to gain promotion, yet the EFL appear unable and/or unwilling to "take on" these big clubs for fear of the potential consequences. When a club gets in the mire as a result of similar profligacy, as in Bolton's case, will the EFL be on hand to help and pick up the pieces? I think not!

This season was the opportunity for the EFL to demonstrate that risking a club's future in the quest for the "promised land" would no longer be tolerated. However, despite having new rules, and penalties to achieve that deterrent, they appear to have failed abjectly to do so, for which they should be completely ashamed on behalf of every club that in the future is put at risk through financial recklessness.

Bearing in mind the losses that Steve Lansdown is covering every season, we should be grateful that he has the strength of will to resist the urge to "throw everything at promotion" , as many fans seem to want, being more concerned with sustained improvement and preserving the club's future. If financial chickens come home to roost with a few other clubs his strategy may soon be proven to be the right one. 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

19 minutes ago, downendcity said:

Thanks for this Mr P.  Those graphs are almost as worrying as when Attenborough tells us what mankind is doing to the planet i.e. it is unsustainable.

Even a non-accountant layman can see that that progression will surely result in clubs going bust, and that this is exactly what ffp was designed to avoid. The problem is that the carrot at the end of the stick, i.e. promotion to the prem, is such a financial enticement that owners/clubs seem prepared to risk everything to attain that goal. The consequences of failing ( or falling out of the prem as in Bolton's case) can, and will be, catastrophic and more so than ever before, given the huge amounts of money now involved.

 If ffp was meant to deter clubs from reckless financial management and control, then why is the EFL so very weak in applying their own rules and penalties?

 If, as so many suspect, Villa and Derby have "manipulated" their figures to avoid ffp sanction the they are potentially endangering their clubs' futures if they fail to gain promotion, yet the EFL appear unable and/or unwilling to "take on" these big clubs for fear of the potential consequences. When a club gets in the mire as a result of similar profligacy, as in Bolton's case, will the EFL be on hand to help and pick up the pieces? I think not!

This season was the opportunity for the EFL to demonstrate that risking a club's future in the quest for the "promised land" would no longer be tolerated. However, despite having new rules, and penalties to achieve that deterrent, they appear to have failed abjectly to do so, for which they should be completely ashamed on behalf of every club that in the future is put at risk through financial recklessness.

 Bearing in mind the losses that Steve Lansdown is covering every season, we should be grateful that he has the strength of will to resist the urge to "throw everything at promotion" , as many fans seem to want, being more concerned with sustained improvement and preserving the club's future. If financial chickens come home to roost with a few other clubs his strategy may soon be proven to be the right one. 

  

 

It's Kieran Maguire to thank ultimately but yes- unsustainable is the word!

My hope is that pressure from other clubs who are making efforts at least will see penalties applied next season- it should have been this but we know how weak and incompetent the EFL can be, perhaps is their default setting.

The interesting thing with Bolton though is that they had their historic debt written off- now while no good for FFP what they then needed was to live within their means for a while- i.e. balance expenditure and income basically exactly. They may even have done that last season- but Ken Anderson seems clueless at best and that's being very kind...think it's a lot more than cluelessness- 'Rogue Owner'- he makes the Oystons look halfway responsible because Blackpool never went bust under them.

Mel Morris a Derby fan so I think it's safer in his hands, Aston Villa no clue about their motives or security of funding- but putting solvency and security of funding aside, absolutely punishments should be applied in full. Thinking Derby are just about compliant or right on the edge of FFP even without the artificial £40m profit but Aston Villa...

I agree that with that, with SL, the solvency of the club is rightly the most important thing. The security of the club- but at the same time, some flexibility should be built in. Some little tweaks in fees, fees a bit higher- i.e. a £10m instead of a £5m or wage structure broken a bit- if of course he is happy to fund it, we must not forget that like the bulk of clubs we post operating losses.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

https://www.bwfc.co.uk/news/2019/may/a-note-from-from-the-chairman/

When Dean Holdsworth and l first got involved with the club three years ago, l recall the late Eddie Davies telling me that ‘he had over 50 expressions of interest, mostly from dreamers and tyre kickers, who had indeed wasted a great deal of everyone’s time.’

Unfortunately, three years on and nothing seems to have changed.

Mr Bassini has failed to provide any adequate and acceptable proof of current and future funding to the EFL, the other secured creditors or me despite him keep telling the media, and anyone else that listens, that he has the ability to perform since early March when first discussions were held with him and his advisors.

His failure to perform has actually caused far greater hardship to the staff than would have occurred if he had not given undertakings he clearly cannot honour. For this I am deeply sorry and offer my apologies to the hard working staff of both the football club and Whites Hotel.

It is very disappointing that despite all of this he continues to make false accusations and promises, which are very misleading.

The question I have been asked is why, given the numerous warnings, I entertained an approach from Mr Bassini, in hindsight this has proved a mistake. However, at the time the only alternative was to place the business in to administration, I felt giving him the opportunity to complete the deal was worth the risk of delaying this process by a few days, which unfortunately became weeks. 

I really had no idea that the club, my family and myself would be dragged through the media in such tawdry manner, whilst Mr Bassini seems to show no regard for his own reputation. His continued inaccurate outbursts to anyone that waves a microphone at him have been both damaging and in the most wholly inaccurate.

Mr Bassini, regrettably his continued time wasting and empty promises have caused a great deal of heartache and frustration for the staff and supporters alike and now leave the Eddie Davies Trust and I with little or no choice other than for one of us to place the businesses into administration, as any likelihood of finding any resolution the High Court hearing not possible.

This had been a massive disappointment to me as I understand the serious implications administration will bring to the businesses. But I have been left with no alternative, as this course of action will preserve the football club and all of its proud history.

I would like to thank all my colleagues at Bolton Wanderers and Bolton Whites for all their hard work during my tenure as Chairman and owner. Whilst it is easy to focus on the negatives, the positives will leave me with some fond memories. I wish nothing but the very best for everybody connected with this football club and I have no doubt whatsoever that this great football club will once again stand shoulder to shoulder with the giants of the game.

Ken

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Loon plage said:

Perhaps its time to stop parachute payments and realistic wages to be paid, with draconian punishments meted out to clubs who don't follow sensible management practices.

A flock of Gloucester Old Spots has just flown over my house.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Adjournment for the court hearing now until May 22nd. 

Slight bit of good news but they're going to need to speed things up in terms of a new investor, unless the ex-Watford owner does eventually get granted access to the club.

-12 points deduction for next season as well.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, ScottishRed said:

Wages are the key issue.

The TV money has had an affect at all levels on these. The fact that some players in the Championship are on £60k per week beggars belief.

There needs to come a time when wages are linked to genuine turnover and cannot exceed a certain percentage, it is madness that clubs have a higher wages bill than turnover, never mind the other costs they incur.

With the exception of 'tech' start-ups no other business would operate that way if they wished to be sustainable.

This is the case in the Premier League. The short-term cost control area of PL FFP covers this and wage costs can only increase by £7m per year, unless you can support the increase by the companies own source of revenue. This is why there has been an increased focus on commercial deals over the last few years and you see 'official watch partners' and shirt sleeve sponsors. The rules are due to end soon but this is something that could definitely be considered in the Championship. My only fear is that if you get a team such as Burton come up with a small ground and little corporate/commercial opportunities, they'd struggle to develop and be of Championship quality. Conversely, I guess that is what the rules are trying to cover to make it more sustainable. 

The video below covers it in detail:

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, BessexRED said:

Adjournment for the court hearing now until May 22nd. 

Slight bit of good news but they're going to need to speed things up in terms of a new investor, unless the ex-Watford owner does eventually get granted access to the club.

-12 points deduction for next season as well.

I would imagine a twelve point deduction over no club is the preferred option.

What I find strange in all this (and having a look at the Bolton forum), there hasn't been the level of panic you would expect from their fans.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Bristol Rob said:

I would imagine a twelve point deduction over no club is the preferred option.

What I find strange in all this (and having a look at the Bolton forum), there hasn't been the level of panic you would expect from their fans.

If you read the replies to Marc Iles' tweets you'll see some panic, I don't think anyone really knows what's going on yet. All a bit bizarre, I wonder what Zach Clough's dad makes of all of this...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, BessexRED said:

If you read the replies to Marc Iles' tweets you'll see some panic, I don't think anyone really knows what's going on yet. All a bit bizarre, I wonder what Zach Clough's dad makes of all of this...

Where does his boy play these days?

I'll guess Liverpool, but only because he was far too good for us.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

21 minutes ago, Bristol Rob said:

Where does his boy play these days?

I'll guess Liverpool, but only because he was far too good for us.

You're not far off.

He occasionally gets off the bench for Rochdale. He has less league starts than our very own Rory Holden who's on loan there - worked out quite funnily hasn't it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, BessexRED said:

You're not far off.

He occasionally gets off the bench for Bolton. He has less league starts than our very own Rory Holden who's on loan there - worked out quite funnily hasn't it.

Don't you mean Rochdale? Not being pendantic - just want to highlight how far he has fallen!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 minutes ago, Coppello said:

Don't you mean Rochdale? Not being pendantic - just want to highlight how far he has fallen!

I do mate yes, not pedantic at all that's a clear error :laugh:

Glad I mentioned Holden in the same post otherwise would've looked a right muppet.

7 minutes ago, Bristol Rob said:

Well I am sure Daddy is very proud anyway.

He's not so chirpy on Twitter anymore you'll be surprised to hear, neither is his girlfriend by the looks of things... :laugh:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

all this talk about the EFL not wanting to take on clubs is a bit of a mute point when only this season they deducted birmingham ( a pretty big club in the grand history of it all) 9 points for disregarding the new rules,

Just remember the new rules haven't been in place for long,  just because we haven't seen results right away (birmingham aside) doesn't mean we won't see results,

If Villa win the play-offs and its proved they breached FFP can't the EFL overturn their promotion?, I'm sure I read that somewhere

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...