Bolton Wanderers (Merged)

[Mr Popodopolous]

https://www.theboltonnews.co.uk/sport/17606012.cash-flow-has-pushed-bolton-wanderers-to-the-very-edge/

The piece may have been superseded by events, but still it sums it up quite well I feel. Sympathy with Bolton fans.

Madly, they are purported to have even made a small profit last season- though nobody knows as their accounts unsurprisingly well overdue!

The stupid thing about it too is that Bolton actually have quite a good infrastructure- corporate facilities, exhibition space could market itself as a cutprice version of Manchester, with Manchester up the road ideal for wining and dining clients etc. Gross, chronic mismanagement at best.

[ChippenhamRed]

1 hour ago, phantom said:

Bolton's rearranged Championship game versus Brentford will now not take place and the Bees will be given three points on the basis of a 1-0 victory.

The match was scheduled to take place on Saturday, 27 April but was called off 16 hours before kick-off as players refused to play over unpaid wages.

Unable to confirm that adequate safety personnel will be in place, Bolton were given a prohibition notice.

The EFL said Bolton were now guilty of misconduct and will be disciplined.

I wonder if they would have decided on the same outcome had Brentford needed a 2 goal win to secure 6th spot?

Can of worms really. They’re setting a precedent here which could prove much more vital for another team at another time in the future.

[BCFC11]

1 hour ago, CyderInACan said:

The EFL have had it easy really - also with the 9pts deduction for B'ham which realistically hasn't had any real impact as they weren't going to go up so they've in essence had a right result. 

Makes you think whether they purposely only gave Birmingham the 9 point deduction to avoid such things as a day or so before the hearing they were facing a 12 point deduction

[fanjita]

5 minutes ago, ChippenhamRed said:

I wonder if they would have decided on the same outcome had Brentford needed a 2 goal win to secure 6th spot?

Can of worms really. They’re setting a precedent here which could prove much more vital for another team at another time in the future.

Totally agree

[ChippenhamRed]

I also notice Brentford’s “win” moves them from 15th to 12th. Presumably this will affect the prize money for the teams whose league position is altered?

[robin_unreliant]

1 hour ago, Northern Red said:

The Brentford game is now off, and they've been awarded a 1-0 win.

Maybe the EFL read OTIB and saw my post?

Is it just me btw who can't insert smileys any more. If I click on the smiley icon on my phone it just locks up. Smileys eventually appear but can't select one or get any further from there. Only option is closing the window and starting again. 

[bcfc01]

11 minutes ago, ChippenhamRed said:

I wonder if they would have decided on the same outcome had Brentford needed a 2 goal win to secure 6th spot?

Can of worms really. They’re setting a precedent here which could prove much more vital for another team at another time in the future.

I may be wrong but was the precedent already set some time ago ? And aren't the EFL simply applying the rules that the clubs themselves devised and agreed ? 

[ChippenhamRed]

9 minutes ago, bcfc01 said:

I may be wrong but was the precedent already set some time ago ? And aren't the EFL simply applying the rules that the clubs themselves devised and agreed ? 

You may well be right, I’m not sure.

The problem is there’s no right answer here other than to play the game. This does benefit Brentford in a way that could be crucial on another occasion. Imagine if we were fighting for a play off spot with them and this settled the issue in their favour!

Technically it’s probably fairer to eliminate all Bolton’s results from the season altogether, against everyone, but clearly that’s also very problematic and would punish teams who did well against them.

Impossible situation really.

[Mr Popodopolous]

24 minutes ago, ChippenhamRed said:

I also notice Brentford’s “win” moves them from 15th to 12th. Presumably this will affect the prize money for the teams whose league position is altered?

Prize money for positions doesn't really exist in the Championship as such.

Think it's a broadly flat fee, it isn't even much for promotion.

[BTRFTG]

Awful for the fans of one of the custodians of our football heritage.

On a selfish note I wonder whether the EFL decided not to expunge Bolton's results as it could have opened the door for potential claims for compensation from us and Boro. If the results were expunged Derby would already be as good as secured in 6th,  as we'd need to win and they lose, with a combined goal swing of 6 in our favour. Boro would have been out of it. 

[Major Isewater]

2 hours ago, ChippenhamRed said:

I also notice Brentford’s “win” moves them from 15th to 12th. Presumably this will affect the prize money for the teams whose league position is altered?

The prize money is not very much and negligible between 15th and 12th.

[Port Said Red]

2 hours ago, BTRFTG said:

Awful for the fans of one of the custodians of our football heritage.

On a selfish note I wonder whether the EFL decided not to expunge Bolton's results as it could have opened the door for potential claims for compensation from us and Boro. If the results were expunged Derby would already be as good as secured in 6th,  as we'd need to win and they lose, with a combined goal swing of 6 in our favour. Boro would have been out of it. 

Boro would have won their case, we would have lost ours, naturally. We would have had a 15 point penalty imposed for the following season for having the temerity to complain.

[Bristol Rob]

2 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Prize money for positions doesn't really exist in the Championship as such.

Think it's a broadly flat fee, it isn't even much for promotion.

I have a feeling that our 'prize' when we won the League One title was something like 25k.

Pretty sure (like you say) there is next to no prize money outside the top flight.

[JamesBCFC]

45 minutes ago, Port Said Red said:

Boro would have won their case, we would have lost ours, naturally. We would have had a 15 point penalty imposed for the following season for having the temerity to complain.

Bailey Wright and Diedhiou would have been suspended and the next time anyone wearing a Bristol City top and under the age of 20 made a tackle they would be sent off 

[Lanterne Rouge]

The only `proper` solution is to play the game somehow. This isn`t just about league positions - suppose all the Brentford players and those of the team they replace in the top half are on substantial bonuses if they do achieve a top half finish and Brentford`s will now get theirs but the others now won`t? As others have said the prize money is inconsequential but it`s all the other stuff where the big money is. Suppose a bookie has perhaps taken a big bet on Brentford finishing in the top half and will now refuse to pay out or a punter that has had a lot of money riding on another club finishing up there who now won`t because of the awarded result.

I can see lawsuits all over the place as a result of this.

[Numero Uno]

7 minutes ago, Red Right Hand said:

The only `proper` solution is to play the game somehow. This isn`t just about league positions - suppose all the Brentford players and those of the team they replace in the top half are on substantial bonuses if they do achieve a top half finish and Brentford`s will now get theirs but the others now won`t? As others have said the prize money is inconsequential but it`s all the other stuff where the big money is. Suppose a bookie has perhaps taken a big bet on Brentford finishing in the top half and will now refuse to pay out or a punter that has had a lot of money riding on another club finishing up there who now won`t because of the awarded result.

I can see lawsuits all over the place as a result of this.

In that case they will need to sue Bolton not the EFL. Bolton are the wrongdoers in all this nobody else.

[Lanterne Rouge]

1 minute ago, Numero Uno said:

In that case they will need to sue Bolton not the EFL. Bolton are the wrongdoers in all this nobody else.

Maybe so but I bet a lot of money-grabbing shyster lawyers are rubbing their hands together.

[Eddie Hitler]

16 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

In that case they will need to sue Bolton not the EFL. Bolton are the wrongdoers in all this nobody else.

Bolton are the cause; the EFL have amplified that by not taking action immediately.

The EFL are the blazers and brass buttons brigade; huffing and puffing and hoping everything works out ok.

[bcfc01]

1 hour ago, Red Right Hand said:

The only `proper` solution is to play the game somehow. This isn`t just about league positions - suppose all the Brentford players and those of the team they replace in the top half are on substantial bonuses if they do achieve a top half finish and Brentford`s will now get theirs but the others now won`t? As others have said the prize money is inconsequential but it`s all the other stuff where the big money is. Suppose a bookie has perhaps taken a big bet on Brentford finishing in the top half and will now refuse to pay out or a punter that has had a lot of money riding on another club finishing up there who now won`t because of the awarded result.

I can see lawsuits all over the place as a result of this.

All EFL clubs have bought into it - they are the ones that agreed to it.

[RoystonFoote'snephew]

7 hours ago, robin_unreliant said:

Maybe the EFL read OTIB and saw my post?

Is it just me btw who can't insert smileys any more. If I click on the smiley icon on my phone it just locks up. Smileys eventually appear but can't select one or get any further from there. Only option is closing the window and starting again. 

I wonder how they came up with 1-0? It used to be the case that an unfulfilled fixture resulted in a 3-0 win to the opposition. 

[The Constant Rabbit]

The stunning thing to me in that article is that Davis, before his death, wrote off £198,000,000 of debt owed to him.

Yet in the article and comments some complain he still left them with another £20,000,000 of debt!

What, £198 million of debt just paid off wasn't enough?

I think the fans have the club they deserve if that's the case - after Davis generosity, the debt that needs to be cleared to carry on to seasons end is £1,500,000 to the players and £80,000 per month for staff/maintenance on the off-season.

 

They have only paid for 2 players in the last 4 years. A total of £200,000

 

The main issue seems to be that no-one is going to the games - 10,000 season ticket holders, but only 4,000 attendees. Poor football is blamed by fans as the reason.So no food, beer, shirt, pie sales etc - stuff that easily cover the £80,000

 

It would seem then, that if someone was willing to throw in £3,000,000 to cover wages and admin until next season, the they would have a shot.

The fans then need to decide if they want a club.

If so, buy a season ticket and eat and drink at the ground, plus use its facilities socially.

They really aren't terminally ill - it's just a 'perfect storm' that the club just can't cover at this moment in time.

 

Thanks to Eddie Davies their debt has dropped from £200,000,000 to £20,000,000 - and they own their ground.

 

Someone out there must be interested in buying a new stadium, hotel, pub and shops for £20 million and leasing them back surely?

100 yr lease to the club - peppercorn rent for 5 yrs to let them stabilise and increase from there.

 

The EFL have to take a lot of blame for a tax-dodger like Anderson to be allowed to take over Bolton. He's the one that has caused this mess.

Anderson has withdrawn funding, lives in tax-exile and has no intention of paying the debts his business has run up.

He is under no obligation of course, to spend his money on a Football Club, even though no-one forced him to buy it.

He does have an obligation to pay his employees though surely?

And now Bessini - you couldn't make it up.

 

 

[BarnzFM]

The problem with what you’ve suggested the fans do is that they’ve no trust in Anderson that the money they do spend will be used for the. club, he’s a history of paying him self “consulting fees”

[22A]

Widening the scope of this thread; we know Bolton - severe problems, Gateshead - severe problems and Ferriby - gone.

Ten more years and how many of today's League and top end non league clubs will still be with us?

[Eddie Hitler]

5 minutes ago, 22A said:

Widening the scope of this thread; we know Bolton - severe problems, Gateshead - severe problems and Ferriby - gone.

Ten more years and how many of today's League and top end non league clubs will still be with us?

Wealthy businessmen wanting a hobby and public adulation in their later years will always be with us. 

Gretna is the best example I've seen.  Obscure non-league Scottish village club (not Gretna Green - that's a bigger team) is selected by wealthy businessman Brookes Mileson in 2002 after a rare promotion into the Scottish league to fulfill his footballing dreams.

Reaches the SPL in 2007/08, owner falls seriously ill and withdraws his financial support, club liquidated in 2008.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gretna_F.C.

There are literally thousands of these village clubs and I am sure that there is a new Gretna team as there is already a new Gateshead team - Gateshead Soul.

This is why Steve Lansdown keeps talking about financial sustainability.  It's not mere rhetoric.

[Bristol Rob]

16 minutes ago, 22A said:

Widening the scope of this thread; we know Bolton - severe problems, Gateshead - severe problems and Ferriby - gone.

Ten more years and how many of today's League and top end non league clubs will still be with us?

I wont be surprised if some clubs go part-time.

[JamesBCFC]

2 hours ago, Bristol Rob said:

I wont be surprised if some clubs go part-time.

I can think of a team in Bristol that might be tempted.

After all, now they have a women's team the men don't need to be full time as they've got cover.

All part of Wael's grand plan.

[BigTone]

2 hours ago, Eddie Hitler said:

This is why Steve Lansdown keeps talking about financial sustainability.  It's not mere rhetoric.

I have spoken with SL on a few occasions and attended functions where he has spoken.  I for one am happy that our club is in his hands and certainly don't subscribe to some of the outlandish conspiracy theories that adorn this forum such as "he's gearing up to sell" etc etc.

We should be thankful of what we have as I am 100% sure many other football clubs will fall by the wayside in the not too distant future. I am also 100% convinced that a European Super League is not too far away which will take the "big 6" with it. All the best for us and that we can be in a revised Premier League without all the cash that gets thrown around. In other words English football can return to some sort of sustainable common sense. 

[Mr Popodopolous]

3 hours ago, Eddie Hitler said:

Wealthy businessmen wanting a hobby and public adulation in their later years will always be with us. 

 Gretna is the best example I've seen.  Obscure non-league Scottish village club (not Gretna Green - that's a bigger team) is selected by wealthy businessman Brookes Mileson in 2002 after a rare promotion into the Scottish league to fulfill his footballing dreams.

 Reaches the SPL in 2007/08, owner falls seriously ill and withdraws his financial support, club liquidated in 2008.

 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gretna_F.C.

 There are literally thousands of these village clubs and I am sure that there is a new Gretna team as there is already a new Gateshead team - Gateshead Soul.

 This is why Steve Lansdown keeps talking about financial sustainability.  It's not mere rhetoric.

Gateshad used to be a League club until 1960 I think, would have to google it though- tbh, wouldn't compare them to Gretna but I see where you are going with it. Not that small either population wise, 202k a google search says.

Obviously this thread about Bolton- stupid thing is it's largely a cash flow issue about the here and now and has been for some time. Plus dodgy owner followed by dodgier owner it seems. Historic debt and losses were written off...they've actually got off-field infrastructure of a good level Bolton, but in no way are they making the most of it or have they been doing so.

http://backpagefootball.com/the-slow-death-of-gateshead-fc/120724/

Bit more on Gateshead.

[Bristol Rob]

21 minutes ago, BigTone said:

I have spoken with SL on a few occasions and attended functions where he has spoken.  I for one am happy that our club is in his hands and certainly don't subscribe to some of the outlandish conspiracy theories that adorn this forum such as "he's gearing up to sell" etc etc.

We should be thankful of what we have as I am 100% sure many other football clubs will fall by the wayside in the not too distant future. I am also 100% convinced that a European Super League is not too far away which will take the "big 6" with it. All the best for us and that we can be in a revised Premier League without all the cash that gets thrown around. In other words English football can return to some sort of sustainable common sense. 

A European Super League is a very interesting point.

I just don't imagine the current top flight TV deal is worth anything like it is at the moment if the top 6 were to leave.

Could we see a huge amount of money leave the domestic game?

[CyderInACan]

3 hours ago, Eddie Hitler said:

This is why Steve Lansdown keeps talking about financial sustainability.  It's not mere rhetoric

Back in the days of the old “AGM” at places like St. George’s School and also at AG, Steve Lansdown predcited that some big premier league clubs would go the way of the pear. Clubs like Bolton, Pompey etc show that being run sustainably (more or less) might not be glamourous but it’s a darn sight better than the boom and bust. ,