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Young guns waste of money?


sh1t_ref_again

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9 minutes ago, RedDave said:

Not quite sure what you expect.  Every club gets signings wrong.  If you think that 100% of transfers will be successful then you will be disappointed.

It’s a forum, discussion of failures, along with successes is somewhat paramount to it working, if we all had the same opinion, it would be a pretty boring place.  I haven’t heard anyone say they expect 100% success, different people will have different expectations of the failure rate which should be acceptable, as a business the club should be budgeting for some failures or players that just don’t settle or fit in.

For me it’s all about getting the blend of youth and raw enthusiasm with experience and leadership right, I’m not convinced we have found the right formula under LJ, maybe that’s circumstance, maybe it’s human error, maybe it’s financial, who knows, but when he does (if he does) make it click, we will surely show a little more consistency and look more complete as a team.

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29 minutes ago, RedDave said:

Johnson needs to blood youngsters every year. Pisano should be released, Baker should be sold and Kalas will probably not return. Then Vyner and Moore should be in the squad for next season.

 

Kalas/Baker for Vyner/Moore....... christ 

 

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Without going too far into the for or against arguments, Bobby Reid was labelled "a useless lightweight that will never make it at City". That's before he was moved up front, and £10m later, he is labelled a success. He had various loan spells before breaking through, both successful and some not so. 

That's just one example of a young player not setting the world alight at his loan clubs, and although we didn't pay £1.5m to bring him to the club, is a perfect example of  "gaining experience by playing mens football throughout the leagues."

Engval never settled here, things like that will happen. 

The reality is, you have to pay a premium for young potential, dare I say even more if they're English. Some are going to work, some will take longer to work, and some will just fail.

We've gone the route of paying big money for average players, look where that got us. Personally I much prefer the current way of doing things. Yes I'd like to see us in the Prem one day, but at least the way we do business now, we are less likely to end up becoming a yo-yo club between here and league 1. Or worse still, doing a Bolton.

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Vyner  now has championship experience having been on loan at Rotherham and playing quite a few games so would expect him to feature next season. Watkins has been injured so unfair to judge him. As for Moore he has played out a season at southend, but he would not be a first choice centre back anyway. So let’s just say jury out on young guns. Not a waste of money as all players not a chance to develop so let’s wait and see if LJ has got it right by signing these young hopefuls!

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30 minutes ago, hertsexile said:

Vyner  now has championship experience having been on loan at Rotherham and playing quite a few games so would expect him to feature next season. Watkins has been injured so unfair to judge him. As for Moore he has played out a season at southend, but he would not be a first choice centre back anyway. So let’s just say jury out on young guns. Not a waste of money as all players not a chance to develop so let’s wait and see if LJ has got it right by signing these young hopefuls!

Jury out indeed but not sure why the OP included a 28 year old with Scottish Prem, L1 and Championship experience before joining us as a young gun mind.

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2 hours ago, RedDave said:

Johnson needs to blood youngsters every year. Pisano should be released, Baker should be sold and Kalas will probably not return. Then Vyner and Moore should be in the squad for next season.

 

Baker and kalas replaces by vyner and Moore...not sure that inspires me with a lot of confidence if that is how part of our reshaping looks like

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8 minutes ago, RedDave said:

We should fully commit to the youth policy. Norwich have just gone up by giving players a chance 

Fair enough but if we are getting rid of baker then would rather give assurances to Kelly that he will vie for a cd starting role. Not sure I see Moore having a future, happy for vyner to come in and challenge for a place but would also like us to sign a proven rb to replace Pisano 

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4 hours ago, RedDave said:

Blimey. More evidence that fans don’t quite understand how the policy works. It’s no good judging a young player after 12-18 months!

The policy is fine.

What we must critique is the application of that policy in term’s of:

  1. how long they take to breakthrough (Assuming they do)
  2. how much did we pay

i said in another thread that Preston are getting their Browne’s, their Maguire’s, their Storey’s, their Stockley’s, their Davies’s cheaper than us, and also into their first team quicker than us.

It is any area we need to improve.

Someone I know said £1.5m is par for the course for a LG2 striker (Eisa).  I’m fine with that, if you get them into first team, or you really are buying potential.  Interestingly Eisa on the bench tonight.

LJ has said quite a bit about players needing 6 months to learn a system. Question- is the system too precise, too complicated?  Surely his Dad could’ve told him about Mo’s football intelligence, if that really is the reason.

Personally, would be great to see Mo come off the bench and net the winner tonight.  I know it was LG2, but he’s a placer, not a blaster, and is very composed in front of goal.  Goalscorers tend to traverse the divisions....Billy Sharp anyone?  Even Ricky Lambert (cough, spit).

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22 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

The policy is fine.

What we must critique is the application of that policy in term’s of:

  1. how long they take to breakthrough (Assuming they do)
  2. how much did we pay

I posted earlier in this thread that very few actually make Championship standard. It’s a very low percentage.

Whatever we paid some, if not all of the initial outlay with be recovered when they move on. Who knows maybe a small profit........:dunno:

To point the finger at £5m ‘wasted’ on youngsters that don’t make it isn’t the actual figure when transfer fees are are taken into consideration.

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23 hours ago, Wade Wilson said:

I don’t think anyone can sit there and by happy with Eisa, Watkins and Adelakun. They’ve just been a waste of money, Watkins’ biggest contribution was breaking Kalas’ jaw. 

Excluding his goals and assists of course.

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20 hours ago, Davefevs said:

The policy is fine.

What we must critique is the application of that policy in term’s of:

  1. how long they take to breakthrough (Assuming they do)
  2. how much did we pay

i said in another thread that Preston are getting their Browne’s, their Maguire’s, their Storey’s, their Stockley’s, their Davies’s cheaper than us, and also into their first team quicker than us.

It is any area we need to improve.

Someone I know said £1.5m is par for the course for a LG2 striker (Eisa).  I’m fine with that, if you get them into first team, or you really are buying potential.  Interestingly Eisa on the bench tonight.

LJ has said quite a bit about players needing 6 months to learn a system. Question- is the system too precise, too complicated?  Surely his Dad could’ve told him about Mo’s football intelligence, if that really is the reason.

Personally, would be great to see Mo come off the bench and net the winner tonight.  I know it was LG2, but he’s a placer, not a blaster, and is very composed in front of goal.  Goalscorers tend to traverse the divisions....Billy Sharp anyone?  Even Ricky Lambert (cough, spit).

Agreeing with the general point, but don't think Billy Sharp's the best name to give as an example.

A blistering season aside he has struggled to manage at this level until Sheffield United's return last season.

 

He's someone I would have been delighted for us to sign when we were League 1, and I'd have been happy for us to sign him when we were promoted to give him another shot in the Championship then. But even despite his record this season I wouldn't be excited by us signing him (if we did) ahead of next season. 

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20 hours ago, Davefevs said:

The policy is fine.

What we must critique is the application of that policy in term’s of:

  1. how long they take to breakthrough (Assuming they do)
  2. how much did we pay

i said in another thread that Preston are getting their Browne’s, their Maguire’s, their Storey’s, their Stockley’s, their Davies’s cheaper than us, and also into their first team quicker than us.

It is any area we need to improve.

Someone I know said £1.5m is par for the course for a LG2 striker (Eisa).  I’m fine with that, if you get them into first team, or you really are buying potential.  Interestingly Eisa on the bench tonight.

LJ has said quite a bit about players needing 6 months to learn a system. Question- is the system too precise, too complicated?  Surely his Dad could’ve told him about Mo’s football intelligence, if that really is the reason.

Personally, would be great to see Mo come off the bench and net the winner tonight.  I know it was LG2, but he’s a placer, not a blaster, and is very composed in front of goal.  Goalscorers tend to traverse the divisions....Billy Sharp anyone?  Even Ricky Lambert (cough, spit).

It must be difficult for players to adjust because, unlike Norwich and Sheffield United, we don't have a defined system. It changes on a game to game basis.

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23 hours ago, RedDave said:

Johnson needs to blood youngsters every year. Pisano should be released, Baker should be sold and Kalas will probably not return. Then Vyner and Moore should be in the squad for next season.

 

That'd severely weaken us I fear.

We need to be gradual about these things- okay fair enough Pisano is ageing, wrong side of 30 and had injury last season so fait enough, Baker being sold fine and losing Kalas is plausible.

Would be worried if we went as you proposed though- the combined dropoff in experience and quality- but especially Kalas not being adequately replaced assuming he doesn't stay on. Well it worries me.

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On 30/04/2019 at 15:11, phantom said:

Are they?

So far only Brum have been stung, yet many many others have found inventive ways to carry on

Genuinely still think it's up in the air, a rolling issue. Last article I saw on it by Kieran Maguire suggested that clubs are still pushing on it, compliant ones I mean against those who are not of who are near the limit!

Lack of transparency doesn't help though. Read a week or 2 back that Derby were under an embargo but that it was expected to be lifted by end of week. No news either way though!

Part of the issue is that IMO anyway EFL don't, can't or won't enforce their own rules in a timely and competent manner.

Eventually some clubs will take a bigger hit than Birmingham...talking in-season deductions.

My money is on us and Leeds. Or say Wigan if they're battling a bigger club at the wrong end. ?

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1 minute ago, Wade Wilson said:

Yeah, he’s really contributed lots there hasn’t he

 

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His minutes to goals is among our best this season.

 

Regardless I'm not arguing that he's a key player, far from it. But when he's contributed a couple of goals- one of which I'm pretty sure was a deciding goal, saying "his only contribution is breaking Kalas' jaw" is 1. Incredibly unfair as it was an accident from a collision and 2. Patently false.

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37 minutes ago, JamesBCFC said:

Agreeing with the general point, but don't think Billy Sharp's the best name to give as an example.

A blistering season aside he has struggled to manage at this level until Sheffield United's return last season.

 

He's someone I would have been delighted for us to sign when we were League 1, and I'd have been happy for us to sign him when we were promoted to give him another shot in the Championship then. But even despite his record this season I wouldn't be excited by us signing him (if we did) ahead of next season. 

Didn’t say he was the best name, just an example of someone who’s more renowned as a finisher. 

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Pretty decent Champ record when you consider that’s from 255 starts (65 subs). Before this season it’s 91 from 222 starts. Pretty respectable for a guy who’s not played for the better Champ sides all of that time. 

I wasn’t suggesting we sign him either, was talking about people with the knack of putting the ball in the net in comparison to Mo Eisa....and that Mo might possibly score at this level having come from lower down. 

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2 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Didn’t say he was the best name, just an example of someone who’s more renowned as a finisher. 

A23E97DD-DBD0-4854-93F1-DA955A0DFB43.thumb.jpeg.2fe8d7d06b4084147ac683bd2c9e7c08.jpeg

Pretty decent Champ record when you consider that’s from 255 starts (65 subs). Before this season it’s 91 from 222 starts. Pretty respectable for a guy who’s not played for the better Champ sides all of that time. 

I wasn’t suggesting we sign him either, was talking about people with the knack of putting the ball in the net in comparison to Mo Eisa....and that Mo might possibly score at this level having come from lower down. 

I realise you weren't suggesting we sign him, but he's a name that pops up often when people point at other strikers in the division.

Fingers crossed on Mo. Would like to have seen him and Adelakun used more, but think the knocks they picked up shortly after signing set them back in terms of where LJ sees them.

Hopefully we see more of them over preseason to be able to guage where they are at.

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12 minutes ago, JamesBCFC said:

His minutes to goals is among our best this season.

 

Regardless I'm not arguing that he's a key player, far from it. But when he's contributed a couple of goals- one of which I'm pretty sure was a deciding goal, saying "his only contribution is breaking Kalas' jaw" is 1. Incredibly unfair as it was an accident from a collision and 2. Patently false.

Guess we are referring to Watkins. My description is doesn’t look pretty but can be effective. 

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Just now, Davefevs said:

Guess we are referring to Watkins. My description is doesn’t look pretty but can be effective. 

Pretty much the same as mine.

Looks almost clumsy sometimes when on the ball, but is effective. Again, someone who perhaps could have been used more, but not as technically gifted as Eliasson

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How can some say Vyner is a viable option at RB when he has just played a full season there in the same league we are in? Play him

Play Semenyo, Adelakun, Walsh, Kelly and Vyner and I am sure we will be fine next season regardless of who we lose. 

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Yes.

We've done better spending decent dosh on an already quality player and then quickly churning (Cole, Akinbiyi, Kodjia et al.) The £1-2m (x2-3 life cost) 'ones for the future' have, pretty much without exception, been ****.

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