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MattWSM

Flare

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1 minute ago, italian dave said:

Thanks for the reply. I can see how they add to the atmosphere (tho they do stink!). But I have a friend, City fan, with CF who has been sat next to and near people who've set them off and I can promise you it's not much fun when someone struggles to get their breath. Pretty sure that will have been at one or more of the 100 games you've been at (Fulham away 3/4 years ago?). Maybe that's the difference between us.

I don't know enough about the circumstances at the rugby, but if they were the same type and had the potential to cause the same problems then I think the club is seriously at fault, and probably acting illegally. It doesn't make it right for everyone else to do it.

I suspect that in countries where it isn't banned then you'd know which parts of the ground to avoid. I know that's certainly the case in Italy. If you've got CF you don't go onto the Curva, but you'll be OK elsewhere. 

Have a good summer, and enjoy your smoke filled parties!!

No worries. I’m not ignorant to the fact they can cause issues with people like your friend, so thanks for sharing that story.

My only dispute was JBFC claiming they don’t add to the atmosphere. I’m not sure what games he’s been attending but the ones I have done they most certainly do. Fulham away is a great example, what a day that was. There’ve been a few this season as well haven’t there, Blackburn, Forest etc. 

I’ll be interested to see what Julie comes back with tomorrow in regards to the rules of having them on the pitch at the rugby anyway.

Enjoy your summer as well mate.

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4 minutes ago, BessexRED said:

No worries. I’m not ignorant to the fact they can cause issues with people like your friend, so thanks for sharing that story.

My only dispute was JBFC claiming they don’t add to the atmosphere. I’m not sure what games he’s been attending but the ones I have done they most certainly do. Fulham away is a great example, what a day that was. There’ve been a few this season as well haven’t there, Blackburn, Forest etc. 

I’ll be interested to see what Julie comes back with tomorrow in regards to the rules of having them on the pitch at the rugby anyway.

Enjoy your summer as well mate.

I was at Blackburn, we scored and the atmosphere was great. The flare didn't add anything to it. 

I was also at forest, we scored and again there was a good atmosphere, the flare didn't make a difference to that. 

Millwall, we score and everyome goes a bit nuts, someone sets off a flare and does the atmosphere improve because of it? No... 

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8 minutes ago, JBFC II said:

I've drawn comparisons as in they are both things that happen in countries that risk human life which people partake in, fortunately flares are illegal here unlike the examples mentioned. 

The Bradford fire incident shows that people didn't think smoking inside a wooden stadium would be a big issue, until something happened. Much like how you claim to have seen hundreds of flares,  if something bad happens (like the kid killed by one in South America a few years ago) then those hundred games become irrelevant. The risk is still there no matter how many times nothing happens. 

And consumption of drugs isn't illegal in Spain, you can check if you want

It’s a daft comparison but I’ll just refer you to Pezo’s post earlier in the thread about risks as we’ll never agree.

I’ve looked it up anyway...

 

630375A2-5D92-4FEC-A699-CF33A220DBA3.jpeg

Unless consumption in private is legal which if you can provide evidence for then fair enough, if so that’d be truly bizarre.

Edited by BessexRED

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2 minutes ago, BessexRED said:

It’s a daft comparison but I’ll just refer you to Pezo’s post earlier in the thread about risks as we’ll never agree.

I’ve looked it up anyway...

 

630375A2-5D92-4FEC-A699-CF33A220DBA3.jpeg

In public places being the main phrase there, in your home you can take whatever you want... 

And there are risks to flares, to think otherwise is odd to be honest

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1 minute ago, JBFC II said:

In public places being the main phrase there, in your home you can take whatever you want... 

And there are risks to flares, to think otherwise is odd to be honest

So how do you go about getting these drugs? Unless you’re getting home delivery, in which case the person delivering is committing a crime, how on earth is it legal?

No-one’s said they weren’t a risk in this thread anyway.

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2 minutes ago, BessexRED said:

So how do you go about getting these drugs? Unless you’re getting home delivery, in which case the person delivering is committing a crime, how on earth is it legal?

No-one’s said they weren’t a risk in this thread anyway.

The purchase is irrelevant, the fact is that consumption is legal. Which shows that in some countries where flares are a regular occurrence, their lapse laws on other life threatening items highlights a lack of safety. 

People seem to be looking over the risk that they can cause for human life because they  apparently increase atmosphere (which they rarely do...) 

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1 minute ago, JBFC II said:

The purchase is irrelevant, the fact is that consumption is legal. Which shows that in some countries where flares are a regular occurrence, their lapse laws on other life threatening items highlights a lack of safety. 

People seem to be looking over the risk that they can cause for human life because they  apparently increase atmosphere (which they rarely do...) 

If you can provide evidence for your claims then fair enough.

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3 minutes ago, BessexRED said:

If you can provide evidence for your claims then fair enough.

A Welsh man was killed at a game over 20 years ago due to being hit by a flare. 

A 14 year old boy was killed by a flare at a corinthians match in Brazil 6 years ago after being hit by a flare. 

Akinfeev, the Russian goalkeeper was hit by one durigg an international match a few years ago and was fortunate he suffered no serious injuries. 

There's a reason they are illegal here and in Europe, and although there haven't been any serious injuries caused by them over here in many years, it doesn't mean they aren't still a health risk

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1 minute ago, JBFC II said:

A Welsh man was killed at a game over 20 years ago due to being hit by a flare. 

A 14 year old boy was killed by a flare at a corinthians match in Brazil 6 years ago after being hit by a flare. 

Akinfeev, the Russian goalkeeper was hit by one durigg an international match a few years ago and was fortunate he suffered no serious injuries. 

There's a reason they are illegal here and in Europe, and although there haven't been any serious injuries caused by them over here in many years, it doesn't mean they aren't still a health risk

I meant for drug consumption being legal in Spain. I said two posts ago I’m not discussing flares with you anymore as we’ll never agree on them.

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8 hours ago, italian dave said:

Do you drive on the right, or on the left? 😉

Well that depends on which country I'm in and how much I want to enjoy myself 😂

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11 hours ago, Pezo said:

I can't think of anything that's not an unnecessary health risk, I drive to work, I drink coffee, I eat bacon, I stress myself out, I use the gym, I drive home, I have a drink, I put salt on food, I get too little sleep.

Fortunately we're not robots we're not completely logical and we enjoy things (different things fair enough).

Wow. How are you still alive?

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12 minutes ago, MattWSM said:

Wow. How are you still alive?

Yes quite. At 35 I phoned my mum and asked how I hadn't at least lost a leg at this stage. Same as anyone that breaths a little smoke at football really - how are they still alive. 

I think the biggest problem is that they are illegal so people throw them, this seems to cause the most incidents that cause injury or death.

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47 minutes ago, Pezo said:

Yes quite. At 35 I phoned my mum and asked how I hadn't at least lost a leg at this stage. Same as anyone that breaths a little smoke at football really - how are they still alive. 

I think the biggest problem is that they are illegal so people throw them, this seems to cause the most incidents that cause injury or death.

I'm sorry that you seem to find the notion of people being unable to breathe something to be so dismissive of and joke about.

I agree that the illegality makes incidents worse; they may get thrown, but in my experience most fans here now know they'll get caught on cctv doing that, so let them off in even more confined spaces, under seats etc, and you never know her her that will be someone next to you.

But surely the clue is in the fact that they are illegal. As a rule, you can do what you like to your own body in this country. Eat as many bacon sandwiches, as much salt, stay up as late as you want. It's when your actions impact on others that we tend to make them illegal. I'm not going to post specific links here, just google dangers of inhaling smoke bomb, there's plenty about the short and long term dangers and the nasty chemicals that are released. 

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3 minutes ago, italian dave said:

I'm sorry that you seem to find the notion of people being unable to breathe something to be so dismissive of and joke about.

I agree that the illegality makes incidents worse; they may get thrown, but in my experience most fans here now know they'll get caught on cctv doing that, so let them off in even more confined spaces, under seats etc, and you never know her her that will be someone next to you.

But surely the clue is in the fact that they are illegal. As a rule, you can do what you like to your own body in this country. Eat as many bacon sandwiches, as much salt, stay up as late as you want. It's when your actions impact on others that we tend to make them illegal. I'm not going to post specific links here, just google dangers of inhaling smoke bomb, there's plenty about the short and long term dangers and the nasty chemicals that are released. 

Italian Dave, do you not think it is a bit hypocritial for Ashton Gate Limited to allow them to be used on the pitch for Rugby but if it was a football fan doing the same they would be arrested by Julie and banned.

It's either that dangerous it needs to be illegal everywhere, or it isnt that dangerous? How did the rugby not know there was someone with breathing issues on the first row of the lansdown stand for example?

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19 minutes ago, AshtonPark said:

Italian Dave, do you not think it is a bit hypocritial for Ashton Gate Limited to allow them to be used on the pitch for Rugby but if it was a football fan doing the same they would be arrested by Julie and banned.

It's either that dangerous it needs to be illegal everywhere, or it isnt that dangerous? How did the rugby not know there was someone with breathing issues on the first row of the lansdown stand for example?

You are comparing the club doing it in a controlled environment in open air to a random fan doing it in a relatively confined space- similar but different:

  • It's further away for one- a lot less likely to cause the breathing difficulties.
  • It's outdoors as opposed to partially i.e. under a closed stand.
  • It's more of a controlled environment than some randomer in a stand who may drop it, throw it or similar.

Asthma isn't the only reason it is illegal as well you know- I've got an open mind on these devices but it's not solely due to asthma etc, Temperatures they burn at for one.

Incidentally, I'm not suggesting that the club doing it is risk free- more that it minimises risk.

The side effect which nobody has responded on is that we then get more pat downs, heavy monitoring, delays getting in etc- pyro dogs. This is the flipside of getting a reputation for it.

Incidentally, to follow up one of your points yesterday- perhaps it is a problem with the law or rather the law as drafted. You pointed out that it was fireworks used at Wolves rather than flares as such- well the way the legislation it it seems to cover them all under the same bracket flares, pyros, fireworks etc.

To prove my point.

http://www.fsf.org.uk/assets/Smoke-Bombs-Flares-and-Fireworks-Factsheet-for-FSF.pdf

Quote

It is on offence for a person to enter or attempt to enter a football ground while in possession of a flare, smoke bomb or firework

In your prior posts- you're talking about smoke bombs more specifically, but the legislation appears to be pretty catch-all- then again I'm not a lawyer (I wish!) or police...Julie H will as usual clarify the full facts.

Edited by Mr Popodopolous

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9 minutes ago, italian dave said:

I'm sorry that you seem to find the notion of people being unable to breathe something to be so dismissive of and joke about.

I agree that the illegality makes incidents worse; they may get thrown, but in my experience most fans here now know they'll get caught on cctv doing that, so let them off in even more confined spaces, under seats etc, and you never know her her that will be someone next to you.

But surely the clue is in the fact that they are illegal. As a rule, you can do what you like to your own body in this country. Eat as many bacon sandwiches, as much salt, stay up as late as you want. It's when your actions impact on others that we tend to make them illegal. I'm not going to post specific links here, just google dangers of inhaling smoke bomb, there's plenty about the short and long term dangers and the nasty chemicals that are released. 

Sorry ID but the joke was aimed at MWSM who joked about how was I still alive.

Its not illegal to buy or to set them off, its just illegal to set them off at football so if they were that dangerous wouldn't they be illegal to buy?

We allow plenty of thi gs that have an impact on others - smoking (who's laws are unsurprisingly similar to smoke grenades), driving, drinking, using electricity. 

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1 minute ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

You are comparing the club doing it in a controlled environment in open air to a random fan doing it in a relatively confined space- similar but different:

  • It's further away for one- a lot less likely to cause the breathing difficulties.
  • It's outdoors as opposed to partially i.e. under a closed stand.
  • It's more of a controlled environment than some randomer in a stand who may drop it, throw it or similar.

Asthma isn't the only reason it is illegal as well you know- I've got an open mind on these devices but it's not solely due to asthma etc, Temperatures they burn at for one.

Incidentally, I'm not suggesting that the club doing it is risk free- more that it minimises risk.

The side effect which nobody has responded on is that we then get more pat downs, heavy monitoring, delays getting in etc- pyro dogs. This is the flipside of getting a reputation for it.

Hi

There has been times this season when away fans have let off smoke bombs and i have smelt it at the back row of the middle of the south stand, so im not really buying that doing it on the pitch makes a lot of difference unless you are stood/sat directly next to it.

If a football fan on the front row of the lansdown lent over and let one off on the pitch it cannot be that different from the same fan walking onto the pitch 30ft and letting it off?

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29 minutes ago, AshtonPark said:

Italian Dave, do you not think it is a bit hypocritial for Ashton Gate Limited to allow them to be used on the pitch for Rugby but if it was a football fan doing the same they would be arrested by Julie and banned.

It's either that dangerous it needs to be illegal everywhere, or it isnt that dangerous? How did the rugby not know there was someone with breathing issues on the first row of the lansdown stand for example?

Yes.

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15 minutes ago, Pezo said:

Sorry ID but the joke was aimed at MWSM who joked about how was I still alive.

Its not illegal to buy or to set them off, its just illegal to set them off at football so if they were that dangerous wouldn't they be illegal to buy?

We allow plenty of thi gs that have an impact on others - smoking (who's laws are unsurprisingly similar to smoke grenades), driving, drinking, using electricity. 

OK. 

Because its always a balance. Not illegal to buy so I guess if someone wants to use them for their own purposes away from others then they can. Smoking kind of makes my point. Legislation of the past couple of decades has been completely about preventing the impact on others. Likewise driving, hence my earlier, albeit only half serious, comment about driving on the right side of the road. Drinking: most of the ant social outcomes of drinking are illegal. And electricity is, if anything, even more prescriptive; current regs mean you can't even choose to electrocute yourself in the privacy of your own home, even if you want to!

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19 hours ago, italian dave said:

Not sure what you think is "garbage". If it's the suggestion that they are a risk when let off in the stands then sorry mate but that is anything but 'garbage'. Not just asthma attacks, but all sorts of other illnesses that affect the lungs. Cystic fibrosis for one. 

Surly if they are causing people to have asthma attacks they shouldn’t be anywhere near the stadium? Organised or not! Like I said they tell you a load of crap to try and clamp it out.

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10 minutes ago, italian dave said:

@Pezo @BessexRED One thing I am intrigued about. How the hell do you (not personally, of course!!) manage to get the things into the ground past the sort of level of searching that we had to go through at Millwall and Hull?? 

Morning, officer ;)

I've never taken one into a ground mate.

I've been with people that have, but as someone said in the thread I don't think the chance of a three year banning order is worth it for a flare, despite the amount of money a banning order would save me.

I went to Millwall and wasn't searched, the last ground I remember being searched at was Norwich. Leeds was pretty intense, full pat down and the sniffer dogs were going berserk for whatever reason but they let me in without challenge in the end. I'm not sure if it's because I usually arrive just before kickoff so they're usually ushering people through but I never really see a full, thorough search happen often. Derby is the only other one from this season I can recall this happening at.

People just cack them or stick them in their coat pockets.

Edited by BessexRED
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21 minutes ago, BessexRED said:

I went to Millwall and wasn't searched, the last ground I remember being searched at was Norwich. Leeds was pretty intense, full pat down and the sniffer dogs were going berserk for whatever reason but they let me in without challenge in the end. I'm not sure if it's because I usually arrive just before kickoff so they're usually ushering people through but I never really see a full, thorough search happen often. Derby is the only other one from this season I can recall this happening at.

People just cack them or stick them in their coat pockets.

The more our rep for it grows, the more common this will become again.

If people think it's an equitable or acceptable trade-off fair enough- but it will likely happen. Don't know how it'd apply to home games, whether our stewards would step it up, whether the club would hire or the police would provide pyro dogs etc.

Last bit sounds about right too- the unbolded bit. They can be very small hence easy to hide, I understand. Millwall searching? Not particularly stringent at all IIRC.

Edited by Mr Popodopolous

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2 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Last bit sounds about right too- the unbolded bit. They can be very small hence easy to hide, I understand. Millwall searching? Not particularly stringent at all IIRC.

Nor do I, though it was a heavy day.

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57 minutes ago, italian dave said:

@Pezo @BessexRED One thing I am intrigued about. How the hell do you (not personally, of course!!) manage to get the things into the ground past the sort of level of searching that we had to go through at Millwall and Hull?? 

No idea, as stated in post #15 while it's illegal it shouldn’t be done.

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1 hour ago, BessexRED said:

Morning, officer ;)

I've never taken one into a ground mate.

I've been with people that have, but as someone said in the thread I don't think the chance of a three year banning order is worth it for a flare, despite the amount of money a banning order would save me.

I went to Millwall and wasn't searched, the last ground I remember being searched at was Norwich. Leeds was pretty intense, full pat down and the sniffer dogs were going berserk for whatever reason but they let me in without challenge in the end. I'm not sure if it's because I usually arrive just before kickoff so they're usually ushering people through but I never really see a full, thorough search happen often. Derby is the only other one from this season I can recall this happening at.

People just cack them or stick them in their coat pockets.

Ffs , I wouldn’t want won accidentally going off around my under crackers

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On 06/05/2019 at 11:19, RedM said:

The club must like them as they put them on the pitch on Friday.

DDD06401-B664-453C-95EA-030296EB8B27.jpeg

It's okay, nobody who attends rugby suffers any respiratory problems. Only us football fans have such diseases. 

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